Racial Passives

monkey36948

The Racial Passives should become a completely new system where the race is just a cosmetic change and the passives are there own skill tree that are separate from you being that race so that you can cosmetically be a Breton but skill wise you have orc passives so you can use that toon as a stamina dps

i know several people that are not having optimal setups because they want to change there long running toon to still look the same

i feel like the easiest fix for this problem would be to change the crown store appearance token to what the race change is now and change the race change to a skill change for racial passives

edit: i knew most people would not agree with me on this but i still feel like it's better then the current system. We should not have to lose dps just because of what the race is even if it is 5%.

Alienoutlaw

sounds totally pointless

Iskiab

Race change is easier, but I really like Khajit and would like to be able to play one in no-CP without it sucking.

/campaign buff Khajit 2019

WrathOfInnos

I’ve always liked the lore behind races and meaningful differences between them, but if this is the best they can do for balancing races then I agree, just give up and decouple the passives from appearance. Does anyone truly think Argonian and Bosmer are acceptable right now? And is it ok that nearly everyone in end game feels like Orc is mandatory? Altmer still has a pretty lore-unfriendly passive, and Khajiit is underpowered in any role.

x48rph

I wish they would of done a lot different during the last pass over racials but lets face it, they just redid them not even a year ago. Very doubtful they are going to overhaul them again any time soon.

nesakinter

@WrathOfInnos Bosmer is one of the BiS PvP stamina races right now. Majority stamina builds are actually either Nord or Bosmer with Orc coming third. That roll passive is huge in PvP.

Argonian is just sad, a victim of the tank meta in PvP. It is basically doomed as ZOS pretty much decided not to give it a use outside support roles.

I think Altmer having the off resource passive is due to Zos being determined to not make them BiS in magicka PvE and cause uproar from Breton/Dunmer. It is a weird passive but not really lore-unfriendly as it is not really a stamina sustain passive which would be against lore but a opposite resource sustain passive, simply there to help the race in PvP.

Khajiit is basically a victim of people saying it was a marketing ploy to sell Elsweyr. Result is that it is mediocre in everything but rp and is beat soundly by other races. I can see it getting buffed but at the same time, there is a chance it won't, simply because Acuity exists and is one of the BiS burst sets in PvP, which is the only case in which Khajiit ends with best results.

tsaescishoeshiner

Iskiab wrote: »

Race change is easier, but I really like Khajit and would like to be able to play one in no-CP without it sucking.

/campaign buff Khajit 2019

+10% Critical Damage, tri-stat buff, and tri-stat recovery? Khajiit is great for no-CP. I run a magicka templar crit build ONLY for no-CP that takes advantage of the lower impen values without CP. Don't mean to derail the thread but khajiit is great!!

Maybe Argonian should get 2000 Max Health instead of 1000, so that more mag classes can consider Ghastly Eye Bowl (like how Breton helps classes use food without mag recovery)

Deathlord92

I would love this as my favourite race is a Breton and class stamblade. Racial passives should be handled differently like few have said about birth stones if my Breton has lived all his life in Skyrim for example he would fight as a nord would hence have the passives. I hope one day something is done a lot of players got very lucky with khajiit and dark elf passives.

Lughlongarm

monkey36948 wrote: »

The Racial Passives should become a completely new system where the race is just a cosmetic change and the passives are there own skill tree that are separate from you being that race so that you can cosmetically be a Breton but skill wise you have orc passives so you can use that toon as a stamina dps

i know several people that are not having optimal setups because they want to change there long running toon to still look the same

i feel like the easiest fix for this problem would be to change the crown store appearance token to what the race change is now and change the race change to a skill change for racial passives

As a player Coming from GW2, I'm 100% against your suggestion.

Shanehere

Aside playing a Nord as a DPS, there isn't much of a drastic difference between race DPS potential. One thing ZOS has done right is balance all of the classes in terms of their DPS potential, the racial passives you have boost it or drop it by not very much.

Though it would be cool to have race as purely cosmetic and to be able to build your own passives to fit the role you like to play for complete optimization, that has never been what Elder Scrolls has been about. Every race has a background that allows them to be proficient in certain things, Altmers were always the best mages, Khajiits the best thieves, etc.

At the end of the day, play the race you like. Making your guy be an Orc as a stamina DPS because it's "optimal" is not going to make you hit 90k dps like the 1% of PvErs that do. You're likely never going to get to that level, so unless you're pushing for Trials leaderboards just play what you like to play.

I know a few Breton Stamina Nightblades that pull great DPS numbers in raids. If you value what your character looks like more, then do that.

If you value being the most optimized build for what you're doing, customize an outfit and hide your characters face and pretend you're something else.

Taleof2Cities

Lughlongarm wrote: »

monkey36948 wrote: »

The Racial Passives should become a completely new system where the race is just a cosmetic change and the passives are there own skill tree that are separate from you being that race so that you can cosmetically be a Breton but skill wise you have orc passives so you can use that toon as a stamina dps

i know several people that are not having optimal setups because they want to change there long running toon to still look the same

i feel like the easiest fix for this problem would be to change the crown store appearance token to what the race change is now and change the race change to a skill change for racial passives

As a player Coming from GW2, I'm 100% against your suggestion.

As a player coming from prior Elder Scrolls games, I’m also 100% against the suggestion.

You can clear the vast majority of the content in ESO using any race-class-role combination.

Zephard

I think you can clear all content in ESO using any race-class-role combination. (Some will do it more easily for some people but really that is the people not the race-class-role combo).

You might not be on the leaderboards, but that is not content, that is competition.

Cundu_Ertur

nesakinter wrote: »

@WrathOfInnos Bosmer is one of the BiS PvP stamina races right now. Majority stamina builds are actually either Nord or Bosmer with Orc coming third. That roll passive is huge in PvP.

The roll dodge speed boost is ok outside of PVP, and I can see how it would be much better in PVP. The penetration boost is goofy, but again really geared towards PVP since PVE content has a fairly low soft cap for pen. The detection 'bonus' can only work* in PVP. For PVE the entire passive can be skipped and you'd never miss it. That makes it a garbage passive.


*This is a very generous use of the word 'work' since you are still much better off using active skills or potions to detect other hidden players. The Way of Air set is decon trash for a reason.

VaranisArano

Racial passives are one of those weird things where no one is happy. They are present in the previous TES games and represent major differences between the races, so ZOS can't do away with them or make it possible for Nords to have Altmer bonuses and so on. On the other hand, racial differences in previous TES games lost most of their potency by the end game outside of flavor, which is not true of ESO.

MashmalloMan

No thanks. /Signed

Some racials just need adjustments to versatility or slight number adjustments, most of the ones mentioned in this thread.

They're mostly balanced compared to the crap they were before... imo anyway.

NeillMcAttack

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

nesakinter wrote: »

@WrathOfInnos Bosmer is one of the BiS PvP stamina races right now. Majority stamina builds are actually either Nord or Bosmer with Orc coming third. That roll passive is huge in PvP.

The roll dodge speed boost is ok outside of PVP, and I can see how it would be much better in PVP. The penetration boost is goofy, but again really geared towards PVP since PVE content has a fairly low soft cap for pen. The detection 'bonus' can only work* in PVP. For PVE the entire passive can be skipped and you'd never miss it. That makes its a garbage passive.


*This is a very generous use of the word 'work' since you are still much better off using active skills or potions to detect other hidden players. The Way of Air set is decon trash for a reason.

It’s the 250 stam recovery (before major/minor buffs) that makes it the best class currently. The sustain changes have made it more difficult for DPS and players are finding that it’s just easier to maintain a rotation on them, so much so that it trumps the extra weapon damage of other classes.

Ragnarock41

I believe the racial passive rework was a success all things considered. Some races might need a bit of tuning however for the most part this was one of the things the new team definitely got right.

AcadianPaladin

I agree with OP. I only play Bosmer (non-negotiable) and whether stam or mag they do okay. Nevertheless, I would enjoy the ability to improve the performance of my magic Bosmers by separating such bonuses from race choice by a system using birthstones or such.

I think that race choice itself should have exactly the same combat impact that gender choice has - zero. I've been playing Bosmer since 2007 (Oblivion, Skyrim, ESO) and ESO is the most restrictive/unfriendly of the three games when it comes to race choice. That is to say, my Bosmeri mages were less penalized in Oblivion and Skyrim for their race.

Deathlord92

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I agree with OP. I only play Bosmer (non-negotiable) and whether stam or mag they do okay. Nevertheless, I would enjoy the ability to improve the performance of my magic Bosmers by separating such bonuses from race choice by a system using birthstones or such.

I think that race choice itself should have exactly the same combat impact that gender choice has - zero. I've been playing Bosmer since 2007 (Oblivion, Skyrim, ESO) and ESO is the most restrictive/unfriendly of the three games when it comes to race choice. That is to say, my Bosmeri mages were less penalized in Oblivion and Skyrim for their race.

I am exactly the same I have played a Breton assassin in oblivion, skyrim, Breton stamblade in eso and if you look at my YouTube I still do very well with my Breton stamblade in pvp but as you said I want the option to improve performance it would be amazing. I completely agree with birthstones my Breton wields blades not staffs ⚔️

Cundu_Ertur

MashmalloMan wrote: »

No thanks. /Signed

Some racials just need adjustments to versatility or slight number adjustments, most of the ones mentioned in this thread.

They're mostly balanced compared to the crap they were before... imo anyway.

While I agree with you that the overall project goals were met well enough, there were some problems with some races (mainly Argonian, Bosmer, and Altmer) and these problems have not been dealt with in an adult way by ZOS at all. It's not like these issues weren't brought up during PTS, they were. They were ignored. And while (as my sig makes clear) I primarily focus on the issues with the Bosmer passive I discuss above, the fact is that the Argonian passives are the weakest of the bunch.

idk

Zos seems to disagree with what OP is suggesting.

When Zos first mentioned they were considering a race change token their comments were that it would change our passive but leave our character appearance the same. Clearly they changed their mind when they actually designed and implemented it.

It is more interesting when our choice of race has some meaning as we have in ESO. Ofc, players can choose a race for looks or a slight performance improvement and both are fine. OP's choice just seems boring.

JobooAGS

In previous elder scrolls games, racials were only important in the beginning to midgame. By endgame, racials were practically to completely obsolete.

Drako_Ei

I wish we could choose another race skill line with out changing the appareance of our characters

Some people may reply:
BuT tHeN eVeRyOnE wIlL Be UsInG tHe sAmE PaSsIvEs

And you are not wrong.. but that only shows the imbalance in racial passives, if they get rid of them, i would not miss them.

Deathlord92

Drako_Ei wrote: »

I wish we could choose another race skill line with out changing the appareance of our characters

Some people may reply:
BuT tHeN eVeRyOnE wIlL Be UsInG tHe sAmE PaSsIvEs

And you are not wrong.. but that only shows the imbalance in racial passives, if they get rid of them, i would not miss them.

Agreed

Deathlord92

Drako_Ei wrote: »

I wish we could choose another race skill line with out changing the appareance of our characters

Some people may reply:
BuT tHeN eVeRyOnE wIlL Be UsInG tHe sAmE PaSsIvEs

And you are not wrong.. but that only shows the imbalance in racial passives, if they get rid of them, i would not miss them.

Personally I think birthstones are the way to go.

MartiniDaniels

Good to see another racial passives complaint.

Nothing changed since February:
1. Breton and orc definitive BiS for PVE. Especially orc, plainly much better then all other stamina races.
2. Lore problems for argonians and bosmers. What's most funny is that there are ton in-game dialogs where argonians are described as protected from poisons and bosmers are sneaky..
3. Devs updated healing done set bonuses but didn't updated them for argonians, because they are afraid of return of immortal argonians... while they are ok with natural stacking of mist+undeath...
4. Bosmer penetration on roll-dodge passive is useless in PVE. Just keep speed bonus to roll-dodge and move penetration with decreased value (750-950) to permanent bonuses.
5. For PVP races are balanced nicely.

Overall, changes were not so bad and races are not so shoe-horned to different roles as before.. so just few tweaks could've solve all problems, but they needed to sell adventure pack and then that huge pack of everything for 2k... so go p2orc or enjoy 5% less dps.

Rahar

The only place this is really an issue is in PvE. I ran a magsorc as an Imperial for the longest time and shredded, and a khajiit as a stamsorc before the racials were updated to make them passable. Even then, it's only on the side of PvE where another 5-8% DPS matters, and that's really not a lot of places unless you're pushing scores.

WrathOfInnos

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Good to see another racial passives complaint.

Nothing changed since February:
1. Breton and orc definitive BiS for PVE. Especially orc, plainly much better then all other stamina races.
2. Lore problems for argonians and bosmers. What's most funny is that there are ton in-game dialogs where argonians are described as protected from poisons and bosmers are sneaky..
3. Devs updated healing done set bonuses but didn't updated them for argonians, because they are afraid of return of immortal argonians... while they are ok with natural stacking of mist+undeath...
4. Bosmer penetration on roll-dodge passive is useless in PVE. Just keep speed bonus to roll-dodge and move penetration with decreased value (750-950) to permanent bonuses.
5. For PVP races are balanced nicely.

Overall, changes were not so bad and races are not so shoe-horned to different roles as before.. so just few tweaks could've solve all problems, but they needed to sell adventure pack and then that huge pack of everything for 2k... so go p2orc or enjoy 5% less dps.

I really like your point 4. Bosmer having permanent Physical Penetration would be great. I don’t even think the current value of 1500 would be overpowered compared to the stat density on Orc right now. For a hypothetical comparison of Orc vs Bosmer with this change:
- 258 Weap Dmg vs 258 Stam Recov, both 2 standard set bonuses but Orc’s is objectively better
- 2000 Stam vs 2000 Stam, exactly the same
- 1000 Health vs 1500 Physical Penetration, both about 1 standard set bonus with Bosmer getting the offensive and Orc defensive for this one
- Sprint Speed + Sprint Cost + Self Healing vs Detection + Poison Resist + Dodge Speed, all situational, mainly for flavor and PVP utility, fairly balanced

One additional option could be to make it 1500 Physical and Spell Pen. This would have virtually no impact on meta builds or racial balance, while giving more options to those that want to cast spells on Bosmer.

They could maybe drop it down to around 1200 Pen, or 80% of the standard bonus of 1487. Because Orc’s 1000 Health is only 83% of a standard 1206 Health set bonus. 750-950 would be too weak IMO.

Starlight_Knight

Anything to get my bosmers stealth back.

Deathlord92

I want birthstones 😊

Iskiab

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Race change is easier, but I really like Khajit and would like to be able to play one in no-CP without it sucking.

/campaign buff Khajit 2019

+10% Critical Damage, tri-stat buff, and tri-stat recovery? Khajiit is great for no-CP. I run a magicka templar crit build ONLY for no-CP that takes advantage of the lower impen values without CP. Don't mean to derail the thread but khajiit is great!!

Maybe Argonian should get 2000 Max Health instead of 1000, so that more mag classes can consider Ghastly Eye Bowl (like how Breton helps classes use food without mag recovery)

I gave it a go as a templar trying something similar. Breton and Altmer are better after trying all three.

Issue with Khajit is it’s too niche. In some situations it’s just as good as other races, but subpar in most situations.

It’s not an earth shattering amount weaker, just a smidge but noticible. Maybe increase the health, stam and mag base amount. The existing amount they are now is too small, and you can easily make something more efficient on another race.

I was hoping to see a difference in the healing amount as well, but at 30% crit in no-CP it didn’t really make a difference. For a Khajit to be as efficient a healer as say an argonian they have to have a 60% crit rate.