BalmoraRatgirl wrote: »

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

BalmoraRatgirl wrote: »

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

JusticeForJilarga wrote: »

This One is curious which one people think is worse, which one is more likely to prevent any success.

This One doesn't promote fake tank or fake healing, unless its a 4 person group you put together and everyone is OK with it.

Why is everyone crying about "fake" tanks here or on facebook? Normal dungeons don't need a tank or a healer. Veteran dungeons don't need a healer and some don't even need a tank tbh.

All this crying stems from people's inability to understand damage avoidance. Most of the times, DDs who happen to have an aggro in a normal dungeon kite the boss like it's going to hurt them. A heavy attack won't even kill you but everyone is free to dodge roll. But you know what? Most DDs don't know they can easily dodge roll the heavy attack. This way, there are some dungeons where you really don't need a tank, but someone who knows how to dodge roll and avoid taking unnecessary damage.

But the real plague of PUG dungeons are poor DDs with noodle deeps. Sometimes I have the need to quickly pug a normal dungeon on a tank to level up a skill or something like that, and the ammount of time it takes the bosses to die is horrible. Same thing happens in veteran dungeons.

I know I can ask for good DDs in a guild like Osiris Scale but sometimes I don't have the time to wait.

That's why when I'm on my DD I always take the role of "tank" if I go to a random normal dungeon. Because I know my deeps is enough to quickly kill what's there and not stretch it god knows how long. Many times the "fake" tanks and healers you're talking about are actually good players who know the dungeons, mechanics and have enough dps to quickly burn stuff before it gets bad.

I disagree. Most dungeons (yes, veteran ones) can be completed just fine with relatively low dps, but you need to have people doing their jobs and paying attention to mechanics. Burning everything with super high dps is actually the best way to NOT learn how to do dungeons efficiently. I would much rather have a competent tank and DDs who know the dungeon mechanics or are willing to learn them, than that one annoying DD who thinks they're better than everyone else because they have high DPS so runs through the dungeon pulling everything and, let's be honest, dying to simple mechanics because they couldn't be bothered paying attention. Those DDs are always a nightmare for the healer because they're the ones running ahead of the group and dying in trash pulls between bosses. If you want to play that way it's best to avoid the group finder.

Weird, both on a tank and a DD I pull the entire trash behind me and never die. Why do you assume that people are made of paper? I have a self heal, I know how to avoid damage, how to line of sight the entire trash pull so it's nicely stacked and ready to be dealth with. I honestly don't mind when people queue as a tank or healer. But there are situations that the people I have the misfortune to PUG with are out-dpsed by my tank in the same dungeon. Noodle deeps is a bigger problem than someone who "fakes" their role.

Mind you, I've never said that I queue as a DD in a tank role for veteran dungeons. I only do it for normal dungeons. For veteran ones I queue on one of my tanks. It has caused me to grumble under my nose about the poor dps too many times to count ;p

It's nice that you're the best player in the world but most people I've seen in this situation die repeatedly and are very annoying to be in groups with.

I'm actually agreed with @AgaTheGreat with most of his opinions over "optimal minimums" for necessary content type must be satisfied by thus signed up for this. The "Fang Lair" example was too nicely fit also.

But 500 DPS is still DPS -> will not motivate them to get better fulfilling their role. They will just be carried in their entire carrier until 810CP which I have encountered about a dozen of those players in n-Trials+2/+3 without knowing any mech and 5-8k DPS. While 2-4 guys pulling 35k+ actually completing the content & handling the mechanics, others are carried without willing to learn even anything, the only completion over someone else's shoulders is enough, and they're happy unless being kicked.
-> Low DPS is OK, just sign up to right content which can be completed smoothly with your DPS level.

It's like work-life; I do half of the total workload in my department, but it's ok-tolerable for others to be able to "read/write ability" as the minimum requirement. This is unfair and penalizing "the good one" because she/he is doing her/his best to fulfill the signed up role.

PS:
I'm also doing omega-pulls but with my pre-made groups only and spamming shooting stars, wall, orb, volatile, etc. to meltdown quickly. But one shouldn't expect "all other 3 pug players" are ok with such gaming style. When you're with 3 other unknown players, better ask them or check their readiness before doing so.

PPS Important: Healers those never heard "Elemental Drain", PoL, Energy Orbs, Major/Minor Breach, Fracture, etc. are not healers IMO. No discussion here can change my mind either. I will happily continue not keeping them in my groups especially over 600CP. A complete role base cannot be responsible only spamming Blessing Springs. It's a support role.

FierceSam wrote: »

seerevaloc wrote: »

I'm a MagSorc DD and yes, I'm replacing Mystic Orb with Inner Rage & spamming Hardened Ward and using Bloody Mara to reach 38-40K HP with Shield for fake-tanking in 4-keys only (the calendar is already known, so I'm aware if I can hold agro without needing to kite of that specific boss or not). And almost always I'm leaving a happy team behind. Provided with I'm also contributing DPS nicely, it's like 1 semi-tank, 1 healer, 2 dds + 1 semi-dd.

The most important thing is that I'm telling the team what I'll do at the entrance. I also learned almost all base-game boss behaviors, when to bash, what to interrupt etc. already when I was DD'ing them. Fake tanking is -OK- if you know your job in Base Game veteran (incl. HM for many) dungeons. e.g. I'm aware I can't hold Selene's bear which hitting 60k on me. I don't fake tank there. But CoH2, etc. easy to go through. So it's very much content specific issue.
.

Dude, in what world could that be considered ‘fake’ tanking?

That sounds like rather excellent tanking to me.

(And the thing with Selene’s bear is almost no one can hold it, you have to dodge roll it)

Fair tank yes, but not excellent. You need to provide major fracture and breech and hold taunt on bosses and major hitting adds to be a good tank. Excellent is another different level.

You can hold Selene's bear with a tank build.

zvavi wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

There are few if any nomal dungeons where you need a proper tank so a DD with a taunt that can shield and/or heal can serve as a tank of sorts. All 4 man content is doable w/o healer but no veteran DLC dungeon or 4 man arena is doable without a tank. So the answer is pretty obvious. Normal trials are perfectly doable with 1 tank 1 healer and 10 DDs. vHRC and vAA as well, the latter even HM.

Actually if I PUG a dungeon I'd rather have a DD queued as healer since most people who queue as DDs can barely get 20K. In some DLC 70-80K group DPS is required to pass certain mechanics but 50K will get you only wipe after wipe. I usually try to stay healer when I queue as such but it that happens I will swap to DD setup and keep only 1-2 heals on my bar. There is nothing that prevents you from healing quite well with DD attribute & CP setup so I just change the gear straight away.

Wrong on all accounts, vet dlc can be done with 4 dds. Other than that, all of them can be passed with 50k group dps. Dont mislead people.

Well I guess I could give them a try w/o tank next time I get to do them as pledges. I like challenges. vWGT and vICP are easily doable w/o tank, since bosses are pretty lame, none hits for more than 10K. vRoM and vCoS are pretty much the same, you can roll dodge the attacks from bosses or move out of AoE. I actually did vFH with 4 DD, it was messy but we did the HM and I think we even got speed run. I think vBF HM is doable with 4 DDs next time when it comes as pledge. If you dump high DPS on the bosses and roll dodge 5-6 times during their punch attacks you can easily survive. I once tanked there with ~31K on a DD that slapped on some tank gear and didn't have much trouble. For the rest I think I will have to think more about the mechanics but I think they're doable as well.

seerevaloc wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

seerevaloc wrote: »

I'm a MagSorc DD and yes, I'm replacing Mystic Orb with Inner Rage & spamming Hardened Ward and using Bloody Mara to reach 38-40K HP with Shield for fake-tanking in 4-keys only (the calendar is already known, so I'm aware if I can hold agro without needing to kite of that specific boss or not). And almost always I'm leaving a happy team behind. Provided with I'm also contributing DPS nicely, it's like 1 semi-tank, 1 healer, 2 dds + 1 semi-dd.

The most important thing is that I'm telling the team what I'll do at the entrance. I also learned almost all base-game boss behaviors, when to bash, what to interrupt etc. already when I was DD'ing them. Fake tanking is -OK- if you know your job in Base Game veteran (incl. HM for many) dungeons. e.g. I'm aware I can't hold Selene's bear which hitting 60k on me. I don't fake tank there. But CoH2, etc. easy to go through. So it's very much content specific issue.
.

Dude, in what world could that be considered ‘fake’ tanking?

That sounds like rather excellent tanking to me.

(And the thing with Selene’s bear is almost no one can hold it, you have to dodge roll it)

Fair tank yes, but not excellent. You need to provide major fracture and breech and hold taunt on bosses and major hitting adds to be a good tank. Excellent is another different level.

You can hold Selene's bear with a tank build.

Hi @Hotdog_23

AFAIK Healer does such debuffs. Perhaps I'm wrong, I didn't mention up there but I do apply Elemental Drain either (Major Breach). Holding taunt until the end of the fight and keeping the boss stationary.

However, I was just writing about vet-base-game dungeons and admitting that I was doing the fake-tanking thing if it's considered fake tanking due to my main role is DD at the same time.

Excellent tanks at VSS HM Nahviintaas etc. lol my simple tricks cannot be compared with them anyway

[Edit] Yeah, I saw some tanks standing against extreme 1-shot damages like 85k on me (vDoM HM Symphony's heavy attack), didn't hurt the tank or taking 70% of Dragon's Breath at vSS then roll-dodging.

First, I was not implying anyone doing what he is doing is wrong or improper by any means. In fact, I prefer a fake DD/Tank for most content in the game and I run the same on several builds. When I do, I always back bar SnB so I can debuff the boss and hold agro even on magical characters.

Just pointing out the holding agro does make an excellent tank. I have run with some excellent tanks and to compare them to someone who just holds agro as an excellent tank is unfair and unjust to those tanks that are in fact excellent. Personally, I am only good at best, myself when I go full on tank mode.

FierceSam wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

seerevaloc wrote: »

I'm a MagSorc DD and yes, I'm replacing Mystic Orb with Inner Rage & spamming Hardened Ward and using Bloody Mara to reach 38-40K HP with Shield for fake-tanking in 4-keys only (the calendar is already known, so I'm aware if I can hold agro without needing to kite of that specific boss or not). And almost always I'm leaving a happy team behind. Provided with I'm also contributing DPS nicely, it's like 1 semi-tank, 1 healer, 2 dds + 1 semi-dd.

The most important thing is that I'm telling the team what I'll do at the entrance. I also learned almost all base-game boss behaviors, when to bash, what to interrupt etc. already when I was DD'ing them. Fake tanking is -OK- if you know your job in Base Game veteran (incl. HM for many) dungeons. e.g. I'm aware I can't hold Selene's bear which hitting 60k on me. I don't fake tank there. But CoH2, etc. easy to go through. So it's very much content specific issue.
.

Dude, in what world could that be considered ‘fake’ tanking?

That sounds like rather excellent tanking to me.

(And the thing with Selene’s bear is almost no one can hold it, you have to dodge roll it)

Fair tank yes, but not excellent. You need to provide major fracture and breech and hold taunt on bosses and major hitting adds to be a good tank. Excellent is another different level.

You can hold Selene's bear with a tank build.

Not sure about the major fracture/breech thing (as in I don’t know if this guy is providing that), but he is providing a taunt, which makes him a ‘proper’ tank and not a fake one. Taunt aside, I’d say what separates good/excellent tanks from basic ones is just the sort of situational awareness he talks about. So they are exerting more direct control over the room.

A tank build might be able to cope with Selene’s bear, but with an attack of around 50 - 60k, why bother when the better strategy is to dodge roll it, take no damage and focus on Selene? And that will help prepare you for facing the Earthgore Amalgum later in your tanking career.

As far as the Selene’s comment, I was only pointing out take a proper tank or even a sorc with big shields can take it and their comment was almost no one could hold it, which is not true at all.

Fake tank is worse just because a dps usually has a heal or two they can slot. If someone is queueing as fake tank/healer in normal I don't care too much, since you can normally work around needing one but vet is a whole other story, especially vet dlc dungeons.

- no taunt
- pulls and rest is somewhere else
- low dps
- pull 1k mobs and wonder why 1 mob is in wall/fell through floor
- tank equips bow and stands BEHIND everyone else
- tank with low live and is no sorc with shields to compensate
- tank with 16k life "Im STRONG!" No joke.
- stand in stupid
- try to tank the planar inhibitor on vet
- low dps
- icp: "do not aggro until everyone is in room!" yeah... 5 min later...
- tempest: "Everyone knows mechanic?" Silence.
- tempest: After 5 times getting charged & killed by boss you should know shes a charger. Right? RIGHT?
- if you get aggro it totally makes sense to run with boss in back out of the room, away from healer & tank
- 98% overheal. You do the job!
- Im a dps doing my job! The pile of corpses around me is not my problem!
- Me damage dealer. Interrupts are for wussies!
- Dog sideboss on vHRC has a max limit of big dogs being spawned. I bet you didnt knew that.
- Enter dungeon and first thing is seeing if I want kick player X because X "only" had 100cp.
- "Dont pull. Need to switch skills on bar!" Worked as everyone was dead.
- mechanics?
- low dps

I just had to say this: You forgot to mention a third option: fake DPS.

But to answer you question: I think a fake tank is the worst of all. Fights get really chaotic then.

seerevaloc wrote: »

PPS Important: Healers those never heard "Elemental Drain", PoL, Energy Orbs, Major/Minor Breach, Fracture, etc. are not healers IMO. No discussion here can change my mind either. I will happily continue not keeping them in my groups especially over 600CP. A complete role base cannot be responsible only spamming Blessing Springs. It's a support role.

Would add Crushing Shock or other interrupt to the list. But the nice thing about healers is that they go from full DD with some CP loss and bad morphs up to trial healing just by changing gear and skills.
With an organized group with dressing room or alpha gear you can even do this in dungeon being an fake healer on trash, healer/ DD hybrid on most bosses and full heal on HM on last boss.

WeerW3ir wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

WeerW3ir wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

WeerW3ir wrote: »

i ask a question then. lets say you go with a low lvl char or youre just newborn. and a highend dd joins as wannabetank dd. he carrie you. you did your dungeon. you got loot. and all is happy. or are you not?

beside what did you expect? a needle in a damn haystack?? you never get into any group with tool if you go dd.

*lol* You act as though all fake tanks are awesome DDs who successfully carry groups all by themselves. More often than not, that is not the case, though. I mostly find them to be anti-social clowns who just run ahead like crazy and already try to fight (with emphasis on try most of the time) the next boss while the rest of the group is still looting the previous one. And no, I'm certainly not 'happy' in such a case, since, you know, I actually want to play that dungeon.

Also, yes, I can assure you, you do get into groups when you're a DD and you also queue as a DD. Sometimes it takes a while, but in the end it'll work out. People queueing for the wrong role just want to circumvent that wait time altogether and that is still a *** move, no matter what they bring to the team! If they even bring anything.

I reassure you after 5 years in eso. You cannot be arsed on things like this. Also if i were you i would be happy that i do the donjon sooner than wasting hours inside ;D

Honestly, I don't know what you do wrong in dungeons, but I've never 'wasted hours' in one when PUGging. And I also never felt like a fake tank made the dungeon go any faster. If you have a premade group of people who know each other and everyone agrees to go in with 4 DDs or something, sure, that's a different thing. But a PUG with a fake tank? Sorry, no. It's much faster, if the tank actually does his job, so I can properly do mine as well.

My dear. I have 13 character. Ive seen quite much. When i queued as a normal tank or healer. Sometimes ive got a team for a dlc dungeon which not had much experience. Nobody was online or free from friendlist so i used the tool. Sometimes they does not had enough experience to even beat the first boss. Dosent matter how hard you tried to explain them. They dosent cared. You can leave obviously or you stay and try to help them as long as you can.

Maybe we just have very different experiences with the group finder then. Because yes, bad DDs sure come along, and in that case, the dungeon will take longer, but we still get it done almost every time, and it definitely doesn't take hours. That I really hit a complete brick wall with a PUG happened just a handful of times, more often than not in DLC dungeons - and I use the group finder tool a lot.

Really, though, what exactly does all of that have to do with the question of whether fake tanks are tolerable or not? Because even if they are great DDs (and I stick to what I said, that most of them are not), they still effectively "cut in line" to get into the dungeon faster, which is just unfair to all of us who do it the proper way. It's not about the result and whether we complete the dungeon faster - it's about the fact that queueing for roles you can't fulfil just because you don't want to wait like the rest of us do, is bad behavior!

zvavi wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

WeerW3ir wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

WeerW3ir wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

WeerW3ir wrote: »

i ask a question then. lets say you go with a low lvl char or youre just newborn. and a highend dd joins as wannabetank dd. he carrie you. you did your dungeon. you got loot. and all is happy. or are you not?

beside what did you expect? a needle in a damn haystack?? you never get into any group with tool if you go dd.

*lol* You act as though all fake tanks are awesome DDs who successfully carry groups all by themselves. More often than not, that is not the case, though. I mostly find them to be anti-social clowns who just run ahead like crazy and already try to fight (with emphasis on try most of the time) the next boss while the rest of the group is still looting the previous one. And no, I'm certainly not 'happy' in such a case, since, you know, I actually want to play that dungeon.

Also, yes, I can assure you, you do get into groups when you're a DD and you also queue as a DD. Sometimes it takes a while, but in the end it'll work out. People queueing for the wrong role just want to circumvent that wait time altogether and that is still a *** move, no matter what they bring to the team! If they even bring anything.

I reassure you after 5 years in eso. You cannot be arsed on things like this. Also if i were you i would be happy that i do the donjon sooner than wasting hours inside ;D

Honestly, I don't know what you do wrong in dungeons, but I've never 'wasted hours' in one when PUGging. And I also never felt like a fake tank made the dungeon go any faster. If you have a premade group of people who know each other and everyone agrees to go in with 4 DDs or something, sure, that's a different thing. But a PUG with a fake tank? Sorry, no. It's much faster, if the tank actually does his job, so I can properly do mine as well.

My dear. I have 13 character. Ive seen quite much. When i queued as a normal tank or healer. Sometimes ive got a team for a dlc dungeon which not had much experience. Nobody was online or free from friendlist so i used the tool. Sometimes they does not had enough experience to even beat the first boss. Dosent matter how hard you tried to explain them. They dosent cared. You can leave obviously or you stay and try to help them as long as you can.

Maybe we just have very different experiences with the group finder then. Because yes, bad DDs sure come along, and in that case, the dungeon will take longer, but we still get it done almost every time, and it definitely doesn't take hours. That I really hit a complete brick wall with a PUG happened just a handful of times, more often than not in DLC dungeons - and I use the group finder tool a lot.

Really, though, what exactly does all of that have to do with the question of whether fake tanks are tolerable or not? Because even if they are great DDs (and I stick to what I said, that most of them are not), they still effectively "cut in line" to get into the dungeon faster, which is just unfair to all of us who do it the proper way. It's not about the result and whether we complete the dungeon faster - it's about the fact that queueing for roles you can't fulfil just because you don't want to wait like the rest of us do, is bad behavior!

As long as you can manage "tanking" and actually do it, it aunt cutting in line cause u get the job done, and it is supporting the community!

Yeah, IF they actually do it - but then again, in that case, they are not "fake" tanks, now, are they? When I say fake tank I mean actual pure DDs who do nothing of the sort. And of course that's cutting in line then, and it sure as hell isn't supporting anyone but themselves.

Daus wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Pure healers are 100% unnecessary in all 4-man PvE.

Healers are for trials and PvP.

Correct.

Fake healers are a blessing. Actually healers are a waste of DPS.

Said like someone that doesnt know how the super high end meta works.

Healers bring vastly important buffs that fit perfectly into a carefully crafted meta of buff minmaxing. Top DPS builds pull so much DPS that even the idea of spending the GCD to cast a heal (to say nothing of the resource cost) stands to be a huge DPS loss.
Healers are there so that the 2 DPS can deal 60k DPS each and nuke any boss before it has a chance to do any mechanics. We dont do mechanics anymore, we just do DPS nukes.

I wouldn't go so far as to say healers are unnecessary or useless. The thing of it is, when you're talking about fake tanks and fake healers, it's usually in the context of PUGs. On top of that, most often it's PUGs formed from the dungeon finder. Chances are very good that your group is going to be less than ideal. But if you've got an actual tank and an actual healer, then more often than not you can muddle through despite the group's flaws.

Groups that rely entirely on brute force are far more vulnerable and chaotic. One mistake can lead to disaster. I'm not saying it can't be done, because obviously it can. But it's not exactly what I would call the go to solution for every random group of strangers.