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ESO EOL?
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭khajiitNPC wrote: »
Yes it’s unfortunate that the dungeon-finder doesn’t work as it should and BG is experiencing some problems, but guess what, shish happens. Go outside. Unplug for the game a little. Trust me, it’ll be here if you decide to come back.
Imagine if people who played Battlefield, COD, Overwatch, Fortnite, PUBG, etc. couldn’t get into matches at all because the matchmaking system was completely broken. Imagine if, on a good day when the matchmaking systems WERE working, it took upwards of half an hour of sitting in a queue before you were matched up with other players in those games. Imagine if those games then crashed over and over again when players finally made it into a match, often right in the middle of you fighting another person. IT WOULDN’T HAPPEN, because those games would go out of business so quickly if their associated developers coded THAT badly.
Remember, for many of us, all content outside of dungeons/trials, Cyrodiil, and BGs is irrelevant. Many of us care little for open world PVE, materials harvesting, and housing. Why should we just shrug and say “shish happens” when we wouldn’t tolerate it in any other triple A video game that relies on matchmaking systems?
Since you seem to be focused mostly on BR types of games and are speaking to their queue system, most of them are pretty much one trick ponies to begin with. So yea, if their queue system did not work the game would fold because that is all the game really is.
Granted, Zos needs to get the GF working and hopefully Rich's comments today are a sign they are getting the GF together. However, we managed to do dungeons just fine before there was a semi-properly working GF and the BG part really does little to support this game.
Regardless, comparing apples to oranges does not work out well. Comparing what is essentially a one trick pony to a much more diverse game does not make sense.
You didn’t read my post in its entirity, . I’ll quote the relevant part for you:
“Remember, for many of us, all content outside of dungeons/trials, Cyrodiil, and BGs is irrelevant. Many of us care little for open world PVE, materials harvesting, and housing.”
You need to understand that some people ONLY play this game for BGs — a game mode that 100% relies on the match-making queue. For a while, I only played BGs, because performance in Cyrodiil is generally intolerable, and because PVE eventually bored me to tears. The only time I ever ran dungeons after committing 100% to PVP was when I needed to grind gear, or when I needed to grind Undaunted. When you only PVP, most of your in-game friends tend to only PVP. Finding groups outside of the dungeon finder isn’t always easy.
The game itself may be diverse, but not everyone plays all the content on offer. If I wanted to, I could pick flowers all day on PS4 NA with few problems. That’s not what I want, though. I want to play BGs, and I want to play in Cyrodiil without the game crashing multiple times per hour. I can’t do either of those things, so I’m playing other PVP games that actually deliver stable content to their paying customers.
Edit: PS, only two of the five games I mentioned are exclusive BR games. The other games all have multiple forms of PVP that all work well. Some also have single player campaigns.
I read it all. You seem to misunderstand what I said so I will attempt to state it more clearly.
1. you compared games that are pretty much one trick ponies to a multidimensional game.
2. BGs are not a money maker for Zos. People do not have to pay more than the sale price of the base game to participate. Same for players that only want to play in Cyrodiil. Which makes your analogy of what is essentially BR games even more out of place.
Zos does need to get the issues corrected, get the server working properly. However, it has more to do with the revenue generating parts of the game which is where the core, the majority of players spend their time. BGs is just for diversity of what we can do, not a core part of this game by any means.
I don’t know why you’re so focused on “one trick pony” BR games. Only two of the games I listed AS AN EXAMPLE of other PVP games that run smoothly because their players wouldn’t accept anything less are exclusive BR games.
That was your comparison. Even here you are focused on PvP games. ESO is focused mostly on PvE with PvP not brining in any direct revenue to the game.
I edited out the rest since it focuses on a game that is not even in the same genre. A much more simplistic game from it's foundation. You are still comparing apples to oranges and question why we point that out.
edit: You also comment about how long it took for you to get a full squat of 4 via their GF. Again, not even the same type of game. More of a one trick pony whereas ESO is much more diverse but also more focused on PvE, far from a PvP game since that is not what brings in the revenue.
Once again, you are not reading what I’m saying. Some of us only PVP. We have just as much right as, say, someone who only does housing and overland questing to have a functioning game. I’m well aware that FPS games are not MMOs. I’m not comparing game genres: I’m comparing games that work in all modes (e.g. BFV) to a game that only works in some modes (i.e. ESO).
Umm, no. I have read that. Clearly I have. What you are clearly missing is my comments that this game is not a PvP game and not even heavily focused on PvP as it does not generate revenue.
That is why comparing it to games from a different genre, games that have such a limited focus and more simplistic design makes no sense. Heck, the only thing you seem to be able to rebuttal with is a false claim that I did not read that you are only interested in PvP, the part of this game that is not a revenue driver.
Edited, left out important word.
So, despite the fact that this game supports MULTIPLE PVP modes, it’s not fair to compare ESO’s terrible performance and match making system to other PVP games because PVP is not a “revenue driver” in this game (have some stats on that claim, BTW?). Gotcha. Guess I’ll just keep playing other games that actually work.
Correct. While I am not defending the performance of ESO, the games you are pointing out have much simpler designs, much less going on with their servers.
If you had bothered to read what Rich had to say yesterday about the activity finder he explains that the AF shares many of the same resources as other parts of the game. Many of those other parts would not be part of such simplistic game designs as what you are using as examples.
Well, my mistake then, for expecting a game that I’ve spent thousands on to work just as well as the other games I play. ESO is so much more ~complex~ than those hurr durr simplistic 64 player FPS games I play, and the huge, sprawling RPGs I play, and the ridiculously in depth story-driven games I play, and the other MMOs I’ve dabbled with recently, and so on.
In all seriousness, ESO used to play more or less flawlessly on PC and on console; the likeliest culprit for the increasingly terrible performance is poor coding secondary to loss of talented developers, as well as inordinate focus on the Crown store — which is what happens when MMOs near maintenance mode.
Again, I am not defending Zos. Just pointing out comparing two different types of games are not all that comparable. The resources required to operate plus the complexity of programing are very different, but you seem to be grasping that now. When there is much less to contend with there are fewer things that can go wrong.
I am surprised that someone who only PvPs and cares little for housing, as you have pointed out, would have found a way to spend thousands on ESO.
No need to condescend with your “you seem to be grasping that now” comment; my previous response was sarcastic. Most big name AAA games are all complex coding undertakings with their own idiosyncrasies. It’s not like Battlefield is some little indie side scrolling platform game .
Oh, I missed the sarcasm and thought you were truly understanding what I said. My bad. So that was not an attempt at being condescending. Though I find it odd you are attempting to call me out for that yet you were pretty much doing the same via sarcasm and admit it. But whatever.
I have not said at any point that the games you mentioned are indie games. Since they are not theme park style MMORPG they do not require as many systems to run the game. Hence they are far less complicated to build and maintain. That is the point I have been trying to make.
Of what I edited out, yes FF14 does run smoother and is a great choice for comparison.. Take note that they run much smaller servers and even each zone is smaller which plays a role in the performance of each zone and the game as a whole. Some central zones are even broken up into smaller zones with the FF design.
A big part of what we deal with in ESO is Zos' choice to go with the Mega server instead of the tiny servers (or shards) like WoW, ESO and even SWTOR if we can still count them in the game. The PvP games you mentioned also benefit from having smaller servers.
Again, great example. The GF in ESO is contending with a significantly larger load than those smaller servers. From the start of the GF issue I have suggested that the same system is being used by both dungeon and BGs as the issue began after BGs. I still think splitting that service into two would make more sense but Zos seems to have gone a different direction.
Again, I am not defending Zos in any way. I am just pointing out the complexity of this game compared to others. Your example of FF14 is perfect since it shows the same type of theme park game yet how scale makes a huge difference.2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭khajiitNPC wrote: »
Yes it’s unfortunate that the dungeon-finder doesn’t work as it should and BG is experiencing some problems, but guess what, shish happens. Go outside. Unplug for the game a little. Trust me, it’ll be here if you decide to come back.
Imagine if people who played Battlefield, COD, Overwatch, Fortnite, PUBG, etc. couldn’t get into matches at all because the matchmaking system was completely broken. Imagine if, on a good day when the matchmaking systems WERE working, it took upwards of half an hour of sitting in a queue before you were matched up with other players in those games. Imagine if those games then crashed over and over again when players finally made it into a match, often right in the middle of you fighting another person. IT WOULDN’T HAPPEN, because those games would go out of business so quickly if their associated developers coded THAT badly.
Remember, for many of us, all content outside of dungeons/trials, Cyrodiil, and BGs is irrelevant. Many of us care little for open world PVE, materials harvesting, and housing. Why should we just shrug and say “shish happens” when we wouldn’t tolerate it in any other triple A video game that relies on matchmaking systems?
Since you seem to be focused mostly on BR types of games and are speaking to their queue system, most of them are pretty much one trick ponies to begin with. So yea, if their queue system did not work the game would fold because that is all the game really is.
Granted, Zos needs to get the GF working and hopefully Rich's comments today are a sign they are getting the GF together. However, we managed to do dungeons just fine before there was a semi-properly working GF and the BG part really does little to support this game.
Regardless, comparing apples to oranges does not work out well. Comparing what is essentially a one trick pony to a much more diverse game does not make sense.
You didn’t read my post in its entirity, . I’ll quote the relevant part for you:
“Remember, for many of us, all content outside of dungeons/trials, Cyrodiil, and BGs is irrelevant. Many of us care little for open world PVE, materials harvesting, and housing.”
You need to understand that some people ONLY play this game for BGs — a game mode that 100% relies on the match-making queue. For a while, I only played BGs, because performance in Cyrodiil is generally intolerable, and because PVE eventually bored me to tears. The only time I ever ran dungeons after committing 100% to PVP was when I needed to grind gear, or when I needed to grind Undaunted. When you only PVP, most of your in-game friends tend to only PVP. Finding groups outside of the dungeon finder isn’t always easy.
The game itself may be diverse, but not everyone plays all the content on offer. If I wanted to, I could pick flowers all day on PS4 NA with few problems. That’s not what I want, though. I want to play BGs, and I want to play in Cyrodiil without the game crashing multiple times per hour. I can’t do either of those things, so I’m playing other PVP games that actually deliver stable content to their paying customers.
Edit: PS, only two of the five games I mentioned are exclusive BR games. The other games all have multiple forms of PVP that all work well. Some also have single player campaigns.
I read it all. You seem to misunderstand what I said so I will attempt to state it more clearly.
1. you compared games that are pretty much one trick ponies to a multidimensional game.
2. BGs are not a money maker for Zos. People do not have to pay more than the sale price of the base game to participate. Same for players that only want to play in Cyrodiil. Which makes your analogy of what is essentially BR games even more out of place.
Zos does need to get the issues corrected, get the server working properly. However, it has more to do with the revenue generating parts of the game which is where the core, the majority of players spend their time. BGs is just for diversity of what we can do, not a core part of this game by any means.
I don’t know why you’re so focused on “one trick pony” BR games. Only two of the games I listed AS AN EXAMPLE of other PVP games that run smoothly because their players wouldn’t accept anything less are exclusive BR games.
That was your comparison. Even here you are focused on PvP games. ESO is focused mostly on PvE with PvP not brining in any direct revenue to the game.
I edited out the rest since it focuses on a game that is not even in the same genre. A much more simplistic game from it's foundation. You are still comparing apples to oranges and question why we point that out.
edit: You also comment about how long it took for you to get a full squat of 4 via their GF. Again, not even the same type of game. More of a one trick pony whereas ESO is much more diverse but also more focused on PvE, far from a PvP game since that is not what brings in the revenue.
Once again, you are not reading what I’m saying. Some of us only PVP. We have just as much right as, say, someone who only does housing and overland questing to have a functioning game. I’m well aware that FPS games are not MMOs. I’m not comparing game genres: I’m comparing games that work in all modes (e.g. BFV) to a game that only works in some modes (i.e. ESO).
Umm, no. I have read that. Clearly I have. What you are clearly missing is my comments that this game is not a PvP game and not even heavily focused on PvP as it does not generate revenue.
That is why comparing it to games from a different genre, games that have such a limited focus and more simplistic design makes no sense. Heck, the only thing you seem to be able to rebuttal with is a false claim that I did not read that you are only interested in PvP, the part of this game that is not a revenue driver.
Edited, left out important word.
So, despite the fact that this game supports MULTIPLE PVP modes, it’s not fair to compare ESO’s terrible performance and match making system to other PVP games because PVP is not a “revenue driver” in this game (have some stats on that claim, BTW?). Gotcha. Guess I’ll just keep playing other games that actually work.
Correct. While I am not defending the performance of ESO, the games you are pointing out have much simpler designs, much less going on with their servers.
If you had bothered to read what Rich had to say yesterday about the activity finder he explains that the AF shares many of the same resources as other parts of the game. Many of those other parts would not be part of such simplistic game designs as what you are using as examples.
Well, my mistake then, for expecting a game that I’ve spent thousands on to work just as well as the other games I play. ESO is so much more ~complex~ than those hurr durr simplistic 64 player FPS games I play, and the huge, sprawling RPGs I play, and the ridiculously in depth story-driven games I play, and the other MMOs I’ve dabbled with recently, and so on.
In all seriousness, ESO used to play more or less flawlessly on PC and on console; the likeliest culprit for the increasingly terrible performance is poor coding secondary to loss of talented developers, as well as inordinate focus on the Crown store — which is what happens when MMOs near maintenance mode.
Again, I am not defending Zos. Just pointing out comparing two different types of games are not all that comparable. The resources required to operate plus the complexity of programing are very different, but you seem to be grasping that now. When there is much less to contend with there are fewer things that can go wrong.
I am surprised that someone who only PvPs and cares little for housing, as you have pointed out, would have found a way to spend thousands on ESO.
As for how a PVPer can spend thousands on ESO? Well, given that I subbed for three and a half years, bought the base game TWICE (first on PC, then on PS4), bought every new chapter (some special editions), and spent money on mounts, cosmetic items, motifs I had zero interest grinding trials for, etc... Take a stroll through Cyrodiil sometime; the sheer number of disco light clown crate mounts you’ll see may convince you that PVPers spend money on the game as well.
If you are only interested in PvP, which you previously indicated in bold, why would you sub after the first year on PC or by chapters except for the one that added BGs?
I do spend a lot of time in Cyrodiil but I do not pay much attention to mounts. However, many of those players also PvE. Some might be surprised by the sheer number of serious raiders that also PvP. A former player turned Zos employee was a top raider and well known to be active in PvP.2 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭khajiitNPC wrote: »
Yes it’s unfortunate that the dungeon-finder doesn’t work as it should and BG is experiencing some problems, but guess what, shish happens. Go outside. Unplug for the game a little. Trust me, it’ll be here if you decide to come back.
Imagine if people who played Battlefield, COD, Overwatch, Fortnite, PUBG, etc. couldn’t get into matches at all because the matchmaking system was completely broken. Imagine if, on a good day when the matchmaking systems WERE working, it took upwards of half an hour of sitting in a queue before you were matched up with other players in those games. Imagine if those games then crashed over and over again when players finally made it into a match, often right in the middle of you fighting another person. IT WOULDN’T HAPPEN, because those games would go out of business so quickly if their associated developers coded THAT badly.
Remember, for many of us, all content outside of dungeons/trials, Cyrodiil, and BGs is irrelevant. Many of us care little for open world PVE, materials harvesting, and housing. Why should we just shrug and say “shish happens” when we wouldn’t tolerate it in any other triple A video game that relies on matchmaking systems?
Since you seem to be focused mostly on BR types of games and are speaking to their queue system, most of them are pretty much one trick ponies to begin with. So yea, if their queue system did not work the game would fold because that is all the game really is.
Granted, Zos needs to get the GF working and hopefully Rich's comments today are a sign they are getting the GF together. However, we managed to do dungeons just fine before there was a semi-properly working GF and the BG part really does little to support this game.
Regardless, comparing apples to oranges does not work out well. Comparing what is essentially a one trick pony to a much more diverse game does not make sense.
You didn’t read my post in its entirity, . I’ll quote the relevant part for you:
“Remember, for many of us, all content outside of dungeons/trials, Cyrodiil, and BGs is irrelevant. Many of us care little for open world PVE, materials harvesting, and housing.”
You need to understand that some people ONLY play this game for BGs — a game mode that 100% relies on the match-making queue. For a while, I only played BGs, because performance in Cyrodiil is generally intolerable, and because PVE eventually bored me to tears. The only time I ever ran dungeons after committing 100% to PVP was when I needed to grind gear, or when I needed to grind Undaunted. When you only PVP, most of your in-game friends tend to only PVP. Finding groups outside of the dungeon finder isn’t always easy.
The game itself may be diverse, but not everyone plays all the content on offer. If I wanted to, I could pick flowers all day on PS4 NA with few problems. That’s not what I want, though. I want to play BGs, and I want to play in Cyrodiil without the game crashing multiple times per hour. I can’t do either of those things, so I’m playing other PVP games that actually deliver stable content to their paying customers.
Edit: PS, only two of the five games I mentioned are exclusive BR games. The other games all have multiple forms of PVP that all work well. Some also have single player campaigns.
I read it all. You seem to misunderstand what I said so I will attempt to state it more clearly.
1. you compared games that are pretty much one trick ponies to a multidimensional game.
2. BGs are not a money maker for Zos. People do not have to pay more than the sale price of the base game to participate. Same for players that only want to play in Cyrodiil. Which makes your analogy of what is essentially BR games even more out of place.
Zos does need to get the issues corrected, get the server working properly. However, it has more to do with the revenue generating parts of the game which is where the core, the majority of players spend their time. BGs is just for diversity of what we can do, not a core part of this game by any means.
I don’t know why you’re so focused on “one trick pony” BR games. Only two of the games I listed AS AN EXAMPLE of other PVP games that run smoothly because their players wouldn’t accept anything less are exclusive BR games.
That was your comparison. Even here you are focused on PvP games. ESO is focused mostly on PvE with PvP not brining in any direct revenue to the game.
I edited out the rest since it focuses on a game that is not even in the same genre. A much more simplistic game from it's foundation. You are still comparing apples to oranges and question why we point that out.
edit: You also comment about how long it took for you to get a full squat of 4 via their GF. Again, not even the same type of game. More of a one trick pony whereas ESO is much more diverse but also more focused on PvE, far from a PvP game since that is not what brings in the revenue.
Once again, you are not reading what I’m saying. Some of us only PVP. We have just as much right as, say, someone who only does housing and overland questing to have a functioning game. I’m well aware that FPS games are not MMOs. I’m not comparing game genres: I’m comparing games that work in all modes (e.g. BFV) to a game that only works in some modes (i.e. ESO).
Umm, no. I have read that. Clearly I have. What you are clearly missing is my comments that this game is not a PvP game and not even heavily focused on PvP as it does not generate revenue.
That is why comparing it to games from a different genre, games that have such a limited focus and more simplistic design makes no sense. Heck, the only thing you seem to be able to rebuttal with is a false claim that I did not read that you are only interested in PvP, the part of this game that is not a revenue driver.
Edited, left out important word.
So, despite the fact that this game supports MULTIPLE PVP modes, it’s not fair to compare ESO’s terrible performance and match making system to other PVP games because PVP is not a “revenue driver” in this game (have some stats on that claim, BTW?). Gotcha. Guess I’ll just keep playing other games that actually work.
Correct. While I am not defending the performance of ESO, the games you are pointing out have much simpler designs, much less going on with their servers.
If you had bothered to read what Rich had to say yesterday about the activity finder he explains that the AF shares many of the same resources as other parts of the game. Many of those other parts would not be part of such simplistic game designs as what you are using as examples.
Well, my mistake then, for expecting a game that I’ve spent thousands on to work just as well as the other games I play. ESO is so much more ~complex~ than those hurr durr simplistic 64 player FPS games I play, and the huge, sprawling RPGs I play, and the ridiculously in depth story-driven games I play, and the other MMOs I’ve dabbled with recently, and so on.
In all seriousness, ESO used to play more or less flawlessly on PC and on console; the likeliest culprit for the increasingly terrible performance is poor coding secondary to loss of talented developers, as well as inordinate focus on the Crown store — which is what happens when MMOs near maintenance mode.
Again, I am not defending Zos. Just pointing out comparing two different types of games are not all that comparable. The resources required to operate plus the complexity of programing are very different, but you seem to be grasping that now. When there is much less to contend with there are fewer things that can go wrong.
I am surprised that someone who only PvPs and cares little for housing, as you have pointed out, would have found a way to spend thousands on ESO.
No need to condescend with your “you seem to be grasping that now” comment; my previous response was sarcastic. Most big name AAA games are all complex coding undertakings with their own idiosyncrasies. It’s not like Battlefield is some little indie side scrolling platform game .
Oh, I missed the sarcasm and thought you were truly understanding what I said. My bad. So that was not an attempt at being condescending. Though I find it odd you are attempting to call me out for that yet you were pretty much doing the same via sarcasm and admit it. But whatever.
I have not said at any point that the games you mentioned are indie games. Since they are not theme park style MMORPG they do not require as many systems to run the game. Hence they are far less complicated to build and maintain. That is the point I have been trying to make.
Of what I edited out, yes FF14 does run smoother and is a great choice for comparison.. Take note that they run much smaller servers and even each zone is smaller which plays a role in the performance of each zone and the game as a whole. Some central zones are even broken up into smaller zones with the FF design.
A big part of what we deal with in ESO is Zos' choice to go with the Mega server instead of the tiny servers (or shards) like WoW, ESO and even SWTOR if we can still count them in the game. The PvP games you mentioned also benefit from having smaller servers.
Again, great example. The GF in ESO is contending with a significantly larger load than those smaller servers. From the start of the GF issue I have suggested that the same system is being used by both dungeon and BGs as the issue began after BGs. I still think splitting that service into two would make more sense but Zos seems to have gone a different direction.
Again, I am not defending Zos in any way. I am just pointing out the complexity of this game compared to others. Your example of FF14 is perfect since it shows the same type of theme park game yet how scale makes a huge difference.
A megaserver does not make ESO‘s code more complex to develop than any other major AAA game; I think it does, however, leave the game more prone to player load-related issues. So THAT, at least, we can agree on. The devs might need to put their big boy britches on and acknowledge that the megaserver idea was a mistake.
That being said, the present issues we’re experiencing on console (especially in BGs with the “revamped” group finder, and in Cyrodiil with the constant crashing) only became completely untenable very recently — which suggests that the issues are largely related to the latest patch, not server load. Players are literally unable to start BGs. They sit in the queue for an eternity, and occasionally find themselves ported into an empty instance with a timer that counts down to zero. Contrary to what was promised, the game then fails to transport them out of the instance, forcing them to manually quit and incur a twenty minute deserter penalty. That’s not the megaserver’s fault; the devs tweaked the matchmaking system recently, clearly did not test it enough, and pushed the code live in its current broken state. If they want to improve their BG matchmaking system, maybe they need to study other games (like, say, Battlefield......), where matchmaking works perfectly.khajiitNPC wrote: »
Yes it’s unfortunate that the dungeon-finder doesn’t work as it should and BG is experiencing some problems, but guess what, shish happens. Go outside. Unplug for the game a little. Trust me, it’ll be here if you decide to come back.
Imagine if people who played Battlefield, COD, Overwatch, Fortnite, PUBG, etc. couldn’t get into matches at all because the matchmaking system was completely broken. Imagine if, on a good day when the matchmaking systems WERE working, it took upwards of half an hour of sitting in a queue before you were matched up with other players in those games. Imagine if those games then crashed over and over again when players finally made it into a match, often right in the middle of you fighting another person. IT WOULDN’T HAPPEN, because those games would go out of business so quickly if their associated developers coded THAT badly.
Remember, for many of us, all content outside of dungeons/trials, Cyrodiil, and BGs is irrelevant. Many of us care little for open world PVE, materials harvesting, and housing. Why should we just shrug and say “shish happens” when we wouldn’t tolerate it in any other triple A video game that relies on matchmaking systems?
Since you seem to be focused mostly on BR types of games and are speaking to their queue system, most of them are pretty much one trick ponies to begin with. So yea, if their queue system did not work the game would fold because that is all the game really is.
Granted, Zos needs to get the GF working and hopefully Rich's comments today are a sign they are getting the GF together. However, we managed to do dungeons just fine before there was a semi-properly working GF and the BG part really does little to support this game.
Regardless, comparing apples to oranges does not work out well. Comparing what is essentially a one trick pony to a much more diverse game does not make sense.
You didn’t read my post in its entirity, . I’ll quote the relevant part for you:
“Remember, for many of us, all content outside of dungeons/trials, Cyrodiil, and BGs is irrelevant. Many of us care little for open world PVE, materials harvesting, and housing.”
You need to understand that some people ONLY play this game for BGs — a game mode that 100% relies on the match-making queue. For a while, I only played BGs, because performance in Cyrodiil is generally intolerable, and because PVE eventually bored me to tears. The only time I ever ran dungeons after committing 100% to PVP was when I needed to grind gear, or when I needed to grind Undaunted. When you only PVP, most of your in-game friends tend to only PVP. Finding groups outside of the dungeon finder isn’t always easy.
The game itself may be diverse, but not everyone plays all the content on offer. If I wanted to, I could pick flowers all day on PS4 NA with few problems. That’s not what I want, though. I want to play BGs, and I want to play in Cyrodiil without the game crashing multiple times per hour. I can’t do either of those things, so I’m playing other PVP games that actually deliver stable content to their paying customers.
Edit: PS, only two of the five games I mentioned are exclusive BR games. The other games all have multiple forms of PVP that all work well. Some also have single player campaigns.
I read it all. You seem to misunderstand what I said so I will attempt to state it more clearly.
1. you compared games that are pretty much one trick ponies to a multidimensional game.
2. BGs are not a money maker for Zos. People do not have to pay more than the sale price of the base game to participate. Same for players that only want to play in Cyrodiil. Which makes your analogy of what is essentially BR games even more out of place.
Zos does need to get the issues corrected, get the server working properly. However, it has more to do with the revenue generating parts of the game which is where the core, the majority of players spend their time. BGs is just for diversity of what we can do, not a core part of this game by any means.
I don’t know why you’re so focused on “one trick pony” BR games. Only two of the games I listed AS AN EXAMPLE of other PVP games that run smoothly because their players wouldn’t accept anything less are exclusive BR games.
That was your comparison. Even here you are focused on PvP games. ESO is focused mostly on PvE with PvP not brining in any direct revenue to the game.
I edited out the rest since it focuses on a game that is not even in the same genre. A much more simplistic game from it's foundation. You are still comparing apples to oranges and question why we point that out.
edit: You also comment about how long it took for you to get a full squat of 4 via their GF. Again, not even the same type of game. More of a one trick pony whereas ESO is much more diverse but also more focused on PvE, far from a PvP game since that is not what brings in the revenue.
Once again, you are not reading what I’m saying. Some of us only PVP. We have just as much right as, say, someone who only does housing and overland questing to have a functioning game. I’m well aware that FPS games are not MMOs. I’m not comparing game genres: I’m comparing games that work in all modes (e.g. BFV) to a game that only works in some modes (i.e. ESO).
Umm, no. I have read that. Clearly I have. What you are clearly missing is my comments that this game is not a PvP game and not even heavily focused on PvP as it does not generate revenue.
That is why comparing it to games from a different genre, games that have such a limited focus and more simplistic design makes no sense. Heck, the only thing you seem to be able to rebuttal with is a false claim that I did not read that you are only interested in PvP, the part of this game that is not a revenue driver.
Edited, left out important word.
So, despite the fact that this game supports MULTIPLE PVP modes, it’s not fair to compare ESO’s terrible performance and match making system to other PVP games because PVP is not a “revenue driver” in this game (have some stats on that claim, BTW?). Gotcha. Guess I’ll just keep playing other games that actually work.
Correct. While I am not defending the performance of ESO, the games you are pointing out have much simpler designs, much less going on with their servers.
If you had bothered to read what Rich had to say yesterday about the activity finder he explains that the AF shares many of the same resources as other parts of the game. Many of those other parts would not be part of such simplistic game designs as what you are using as examples.
Well, my mistake then, for expecting a game that I’ve spent thousands on to work just as well as the other games I play. ESO is so much more ~complex~ than those hurr durr simplistic 64 player FPS games I play, and the huge, sprawling RPGs I play, and the ridiculously in depth story-driven games I play, and the other MMOs I’ve dabbled with recently, and so on.
In all seriousness, ESO used to play more or less flawlessly on PC and on console; the likeliest culprit for the increasingly terrible performance is poor coding secondary to loss of talented developers, as well as inordinate focus on the Crown store — which is what happens when MMOs near maintenance mode.
Again, I am not defending Zos. Just pointing out comparing two different types of games are not all that comparable. The resources required to operate plus the complexity of programing are very different, but you seem to be grasping that now. When there is much less to contend with there are fewer things that can go wrong.
I am surprised that someone who only PvPs and cares little for housing, as you have pointed out, would have found a way to spend thousands on ESO.
As for how a PVPer can spend thousands on ESO? Well, given that I subbed for three and a half years, bought the base game TWICE (first on PC, then on PS4), bought every new chapter (some special editions), and spent money on mounts, cosmetic items, motifs I had zero interest grinding trials for, etc... Take a stroll through Cyrodiil sometime; the sheer number of disco light clown crate mounts you’ll see may convince you that PVPers spend money on the game as well.
If you are only interested in PvP, which you previously indicated in bold, why would you sub after the first year on PC or by chapters except for the one that added BGs?
I do spend a lot of time in Cyrodiil but I do not pay much attention to mounts. However, many of those players also PvE. Some might be surprised by the sheer number of serious raiders that also PvP. A former player turned Zos employee was a top raider and well known to be active in PvP.
You ARE aware that PVPers need to wear up to date gear, right? Given how quickly the meta often changes (especially over the last few patches), that means you’re frequently heading into public dungeons or instanced dungeons to grind new gear. Some crafted sets are also required for certain builds. The process of grinding for new gear and upgrading new gear means that without the crafting bag, and thus ESO plus, you’re left playing Elder Inventory Management Online. Then there’s potions. Some of the most crucial PVP potions require expensive materials. Since PVPing is not a lucrative process, you’re often forced to acquire the materials yourself. The most efficient way to do this is to either complete writs for alchemy surveys or grind Tel Var for alchemy satchels. Given the metric crapton of alchemy reagents in the game, again, you’d better hope you have ESO plus or else you’re back to playing Elder Inventory Management Online.
Most of the hardcore ESO PVP players I know are subscribers, because the gear and potion requirements for mid-top tier PVP basically force you to invest in the crafting bag, much like the end game dungeon/trials scene. The only people who don’t need ESO plus are the ultra casuals who sell everything they loot and wear whatever drops from random monsters, or those who are prepared to waste hours mailing crafting materials to various mule accounts.
Also, believe it or not, I once saw the value in supporting this game financially through my subscription, because it worked well and didn’t cause anywhere near the amount of frustration it has increasingly caused over the past few months.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭khajiitNPC wrote: »
Yes it’s unfortunate that the dungeon-finder doesn’t work as it should and BG is experiencing some problems, but guess what, shish happens. Go outside. Unplug for the game a little. Trust me, it’ll be here if you decide to come back.
Imagine if people who played Battlefield, COD, Overwatch, Fortnite, PUBG, etc. couldn’t get into matches at all because the matchmaking system was completely broken. Imagine if, on a good day when the matchmaking systems WERE working, it took upwards of half an hour of sitting in a queue before you were matched up with other players in those games. Imagine if those games then crashed over and over again when players finally made it into a match, often right in the middle of you fighting another person. IT WOULDN’T HAPPEN, because those games would go out of business so quickly if their associated developers coded THAT badly.
Remember, for many of us, all content outside of dungeons/trials, Cyrodiil, and BGs is irrelevant. Many of us care little for open world PVE, materials harvesting, and housing. Why should we just shrug and say “shish happens” when we wouldn’t tolerate it in any other triple A video game that relies on matchmaking systems?
Since you seem to be focused mostly on BR types of games and are speaking to their queue system, most of them are pretty much one trick ponies to begin with. So yea, if their queue system did not work the game would fold because that is all the game really is.
Granted, Zos needs to get the GF working and hopefully Rich's comments today are a sign they are getting the GF together. However, we managed to do dungeons just fine before there was a semi-properly working GF and the BG part really does little to support this game.
Regardless, comparing apples to oranges does not work out well. Comparing what is essentially a one trick pony to a much more diverse game does not make sense.
You didn’t read my post in its entirity, . I’ll quote the relevant part for you:
“Remember, for many of us, all content outside of dungeons/trials, Cyrodiil, and BGs is irrelevant. Many of us care little for open world PVE, materials harvesting, and housing.”
You need to understand that some people ONLY play this game for BGs — a game mode that 100% relies on the match-making queue. For a while, I only played BGs, because performance in Cyrodiil is generally intolerable, and because PVE eventually bored me to tears. The only time I ever ran dungeons after committing 100% to PVP was when I needed to grind gear, or when I needed to grind Undaunted. When you only PVP, most of your in-game friends tend to only PVP. Finding groups outside of the dungeon finder isn’t always easy.
The game itself may be diverse, but not everyone plays all the content on offer. If I wanted to, I could pick flowers all day on PS4 NA with few problems. That’s not what I want, though. I want to play BGs, and I want to play in Cyrodiil without the game crashing multiple times per hour. I can’t do either of those things, so I’m playing other PVP games that actually deliver stable content to their paying customers.
Edit: PS, only two of the five games I mentioned are exclusive BR games. The other games all have multiple forms of PVP that all work well. Some also have single player campaigns.
I read it all. You seem to misunderstand what I said so I will attempt to state it more clearly.
1. you compared games that are pretty much one trick ponies to a multidimensional game.
2. BGs are not a money maker for Zos. People do not have to pay more than the sale price of the base game to participate. Same for players that only want to play in Cyrodiil. Which makes your analogy of what is essentially BR games even more out of place.
Zos does need to get the issues corrected, get the server working properly. However, it has more to do with the revenue generating parts of the game which is where the core, the majority of players spend their time. BGs is just for diversity of what we can do, not a core part of this game by any means.
I don’t know why you’re so focused on “one trick pony” BR games. Only two of the games I listed AS AN EXAMPLE of other PVP games that run smoothly because their players wouldn’t accept anything less are exclusive BR games.
That was your comparison. Even here you are focused on PvP games. ESO is focused mostly on PvE with PvP not brining in any direct revenue to the game.
I edited out the rest since it focuses on a game that is not even in the same genre. A much more simplistic game from it's foundation. You are still comparing apples to oranges and question why we point that out.
edit: You also comment about how long it took for you to get a full squat of 4 via their GF. Again, not even the same type of game. More of a one trick pony whereas ESO is much more diverse but also more focused on PvE, far from a PvP game since that is not what brings in the revenue.
Once again, you are not reading what I’m saying. Some of us only PVP. We have just as much right as, say, someone who only does housing and overland questing to have a functioning game. I’m well aware that FPS games are not MMOs. I’m not comparing game genres: I’m comparing games that work in all modes (e.g. BFV) to a game that only works in some modes (i.e. ESO).
Umm, no. I have read that. Clearly I have. What you are clearly missing is my comments that this game is not a PvP game and not even heavily focused on PvP as it does not generate revenue.
That is why comparing it to games from a different genre, games that have such a limited focus and more simplistic design makes no sense. Heck, the only thing you seem to be able to rebuttal with is a false claim that I did not read that you are only interested in PvP, the part of this game that is not a revenue driver.
Edited, left out important word.
So, despite the fact that this game supports MULTIPLE PVP modes, it’s not fair to compare ESO’s terrible performance and match making system to other PVP games because PVP is not a “revenue driver” in this game (have some stats on that claim, BTW?). Gotcha. Guess I’ll just keep playing other games that actually work.
Correct. While I am not defending the performance of ESO, the games you are pointing out have much simpler designs, much less going on with their servers.
If you had bothered to read what Rich had to say yesterday about the activity finder he explains that the AF shares many of the same resources as other parts of the game. Many of those other parts would not be part of such simplistic game designs as what you are using as examples.
Well, my mistake then, for expecting a game that I’ve spent thousands on to work just as well as the other games I play. ESO is so much more ~complex~ than those hurr durr simplistic 64 player FPS games I play, and the huge, sprawling RPGs I play, and the ridiculously in depth story-driven games I play, and the other MMOs I’ve dabbled with recently, and so on.
In all seriousness, ESO used to play more or less flawlessly on PC and on console; the likeliest culprit for the increasingly terrible performance is poor coding secondary to loss of talented developers, as well as inordinate focus on the Crown store — which is what happens when MMOs near maintenance mode.
Again, I am not defending Zos. Just pointing out comparing two different types of games are not all that comparable. The resources required to operate plus the complexity of programing are very different, but you seem to be grasping that now. When there is much less to contend with there are fewer things that can go wrong.
I am surprised that someone who only PvPs and cares little for housing, as you have pointed out, would have found a way to spend thousands on ESO.
No need to condescend with your “you seem to be grasping that now” comment; my previous response was sarcastic. Most big name AAA games are all complex coding undertakings with their own idiosyncrasies. It’s not like Battlefield is some little indie side scrolling platform game .
Oh, I missed the sarcasm and thought you were truly understanding what I said. My bad. So that was not an attempt at being condescending. Though I find it odd you are attempting to call me out for that yet you were pretty much doing the same via sarcasm and admit it. But whatever.
I have not said at any point that the games you mentioned are indie games. Since they are not theme park style MMORPG they do not require as many systems to run the game. Hence they are far less complicated to build and maintain. That is the point I have been trying to make.
Of what I edited out, yes FF14 does run smoother and is a great choice for comparison.. Take note that they run much smaller servers and even each zone is smaller which plays a role in the performance of each zone and the game as a whole. Some central zones are even broken up into smaller zones with the FF design.
A big part of what we deal with in ESO is Zos' choice to go with the Mega server instead of the tiny servers (or shards) like WoW, ESO and even SWTOR if we can still count them in the game. The PvP games you mentioned also benefit from having smaller servers.
Again, great example. The GF in ESO is contending with a significantly larger load than those smaller servers. From the start of the GF issue I have suggested that the same system is being used by both dungeon and BGs as the issue began after BGs. I still think splitting that service into two would make more sense but Zos seems to have gone a different direction.
Again, I am not defending Zos in any way. I am just pointing out the complexity of this game compared to others. Your example of FF14 is perfect since it shows the same type of theme park game yet how scale makes a huge difference.
A megaserver does not make ESO‘s code more complex to develop than any other major AAA game; I think it does, however, leave the game more prone to player load-related issues. So THAT, at least, we can agree on. The devs might need to put their big boy britches on and acknowledge that the megaserver idea was a mistake.
That being said, the present issues we’re experiencing on console (especially in BGs with the “revamped” group finder, and in Cyrodiil with the constant crashing) only became completely untenable very recently — which suggests that the issues are largely related to the latest patch, not server load. Players are literally unable to start BGs. They sit in the queue for an eternity, and occasionally find themselves ported into an empty instance with a timer that counts down to zero. Contrary to what was promised, the game then fails to transport them out of the instance, forcing them to manually quit and incur a twenty minute deserter penalty. That’s not the megaserver’s fault; the devs tweaked the matchmaking system recently, clearly did not test it enough, and pushed the code live in its current broken state. If they want to improve their BG matchmaking system, maybe they need to study other games (like, say, Battlefield......), where matchmaking works perfectly.
I suggest reading what you quoted. I did not say or suggest the mega server made programing the game more complex. I clearly stated it means more load on the server. You clearly agree with that based on this post I quoted so not sure why you are arguing that.
As for the last update, read what Rich stated. He stated the GF is causing much of the issues since the last patch as is much of the same resources other parts of the game use. Something they have been hitting issues as they find them. This also plays into the server load that smaller servers do not deal with (and the other games you mentioned). Clearly more players would likely mean more using the activity finder.
His post explains much about what you are assuming. Again, battlefield not only has a smaller load on their match making but they have a smaller load on the entire game. So yes, it has to do with this being a mega server plus a more complex game when comparing it to Battlefield and those other games.1 -
wild_kmacdb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I think of the saying 'death by a thousand cuts'. ESO isn't there yet, but the number is accumulating. They can turn it around and maybe that is a part of their roadmap. All I know is that I got kicked out of the game in the middle of a keep siege, losing out on 50k alliance points and will now probably take a hiatus from the game till they get their act together.Edited by wild_kmacdb16_ESO on November 27, 2019 4:22AM3 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭wild_kmacdb16_ESO wrote: »All I know is that I got kicked out of the game in the middle of a keep siege, losing out on 50k alliance points and will now probably take a hiatus from the game till they get their act together.
iT’s ThE gRoUpFiNdEr’S fAuLt!
Sorry you missed out on a good haul. I know all too well the frustration of missing a big defense tick after the game crashes ... it really is a shame that the developers can’t seem to figure out how to make their game perform as well as most other AAA titles out there.0 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't think they feel the need to prove anything. The proof will be when the next expansion is announced.Lady_Linux wrote: »If they want to convince peopl the end istnt near, a good faith effort would be required.
It's actually the exact opposite. ZOS has said in the past that throwing hardware at the problems won't help. I'm sure if increasing their hardware footprint 10x would solve all of their problems, they would do it. They likely spend more money on designing glowy mount effects than hardware. Software development costs far more.Lady_Linux wrote: »As much as i appreciate the recent note about the group finder and the server load on pc eu, it seems clear that more servers are in fact necessary and there may in fact be no coding solution that will ever repair or correct the problem of needing more servers to carry the load...
The post about the activity finder gives us insight to how badly designed the game is at present time. A matchmaker system should not be lagging the rest of the game. It should be completely performance neutral to the point that if it was running on a server in orbit around the earth, no one would be able to tell. And this is the new and improved version(!?!!)
Different aspects of the game should all be heavily segmented. There's no reason the performance of an instance should be impacted by other unrelated parts of the game; even another instance of the same zone.
The root of all issues and all solutions are in software. ZOS has been focused on engineering new ways to sell us new things instead of fixing fundamental issues in the software we already paid for.
ESO performs akin to early ecommerce sites that were unreliable and would lag. But we paid for Amazon. No one should excuse the issues this game has. Zenimax is has the expertise and resources to deliver the product they sold to us as a major triple A publisher worth billions of dollars and with several studios within their corporate umbrella. They decided not to.
Software development isn't a black art anymore. Just as poorly performing search engines and ecommerce sites are a thing of the past, so too should be most of the performance issues we have in ESO.Edited by zyk on November 27, 2019 6:59AM1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lady_Linux wrote: »OrdoHermetica wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Uh...end of life? What evidence have you seen that lead you to believe that? Did their sub numbers drop drastically over the past few months? If so, can you link your source? And have they lost money at all? If so, can you also link that source?
We only have anecdotal proof; ESO’s various social media platforms are full of disgruntled former or soon-to-be former players. I’ve seen long-running PVE and PVP guilds on PS4 completely wither away over the past year. Many friends on console — some of whom were around for launch — have given up, cancelled their subs, uninstalled, and moved on. Attrition is normal for MMOs, but anecdotally, it has ramped up significantly on PS4 NA over the past few months. Games cannot perform as poorly as ESO is currently performing and still manage to retain enough new players to make up for those who are leaving. If I bought an older game on sale and it crashed multiple times every hour, I’d chalk it up as a bad mistake on my part and uninstall rather than invest any time into it.
People who are persisting with the game despite their considerable frustration with it are still too invested in the game to stop playing — everyone has a breaking point, though, and ZOS is seriously testing those breaking points lately.
Yeah I don't really follow anecdotal proof, I wait for empirical evidence to be presented. Otherwise it is just like people who said they were going to move out of the US if Trump got elected president, but stayed anyways. If people are quitting in droves, I want to see the paperwork that shows those numbers, similar to when people quit SWG when the first CU launched, and then even more people quit when the NGE dropped. There were actual active subscription numbers that you could compare against the previous numbers and see a drastic decline in population over a short period of time.
If someone can show me that, then I might believe that the sky is falling. Otherwise, it's business as usual.
So, as I pointed out in my previous reply, we will likely never get those numbers. Ever. Because ZOS is a privately owned and operated company, not a publicly traded one, and so has no obligation or incentive to provide us with those numbers, especially if they don't paint a rosy picture. With that in mind, what would it take for you to think otherwise? Presumably your own anecdotal experiences? Because anecdotal evidence is pretty much we're ever going to have to go on.
[snip] I’ve personally seen many an MMO go into maintenance mode in my time. ESO bears all the hallmark signs of an MMO in decline. Even if the server lights stay on for a few more years, anyone who thinks this game isn’t a shadow of its former self either is new, or has some pretty heavy duty blinders on.
[Edit for bait.]
it seems clear that more servers are in fact necessary and there may in fact be no coding solution that will ever repair or correct the problem of needing more servers to carry the load..
May in fact is a contradiction. It is attempting to state an assumption as fact while also saying it is an assumption.
The fact is we do not really know as we do not work on this server coding the game or managing the equipment. We also know the game has performed better at previous times.
Granted, a mega server does present challenges smaller servers do not experience but that does not mean additional servers are needed. Making assumptions without much basis does not solve anything.
I would assume someone with Linux in their name would understand one cannot make assumptions concerning servers we have limited knowledge about.Edited by idk on November 27, 2019 7:04AM0 -
OrdoHermetica✭✭✭✭✭
✭Goregrinder wrote: »OrdoHermetica wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Uh...end of life? What evidence have you seen that lead you to believe that? Did their sub numbers drop drastically over the past few months? If so, can you link your source? And have they lost money at all? If so, can you also link that source?
We only have anecdotal proof; ESO’s various social media platforms are full of disgruntled former or soon-to-be former players. I’ve seen long-running PVE and PVP guilds on PS4 completely wither away over the past year. Many friends on console — some of whom were around for launch — have given up, cancelled their subs, uninstalled, and moved on. Attrition is normal for MMOs, but anecdotally, it has ramped up significantly on PS4 NA over the past few months. Games cannot perform as poorly as ESO is currently performing and still manage to retain enough new players to make up for those who are leaving. If I bought an older game on sale and it crashed multiple times every hour, I’d chalk it up as a bad mistake on my part and uninstall rather than invest any time into it.
People who are persisting with the game despite their considerable frustration with it are still too invested in the game to stop playing — everyone has a breaking point, though, and ZOS is seriously testing those breaking points lately.
Yeah I don't really follow anecdotal proof, I wait for empirical evidence to be presented. Otherwise it is just like people who said they were going to move out of the US if Trump got elected president, but stayed anyways. If people are quitting in droves, I want to see the paperwork that shows those numbers, similar to when people quit SWG when the first CU launched, and then even more people quit when the NGE dropped. There were actual active subscription numbers that you could compare against the previous numbers and see a drastic decline in population over a short period of time.
If someone can show me that, then I might believe that the sky is falling. Otherwise, it's business as usual.
So, as I pointed out in my previous reply, we will likely never get those numbers. Ever. Because ZOS is a privately owned and operated company, not a publicly traded one, and so has no obligation or incentive to provide us with those numbers, especially if they don't paint a rosy picture. With that in mind, what would it take for you to think otherwise? Presumably your own anecdotal experiences? Because anecdotal evidence is pretty much we're ever going to have to go on.
Yes, you pointed out you have no empirical evidence that backs up OP's post. I know. So making an assumption based on no evidence would make an ___ out of me and u. What it would take for me to think ESO is EOL is empirical evidence that suggests the game is now on life support, and the numbers are dwindling to DAoC territory. If you can show me that, I will consider said evidence, and possibly change my mind.
So, are you saying that only external, empirical evidence will do it for you? If you find yourself on an almost deserted server a year from now, will you still be saying, "Well, we don't have player numbers, so we can't really know if the game is struggling"? That may seem like an absurdity, but again: we will probably never have that information. Basing your own willingness to consider how the game is doing on something we will never have access to is, itself, a bit absurd.
I'm not saying that people posting on the forum saying the game is dying are a reliable metric, but I'd say it's probably not wise to just discount anecdotal evidence out of hand, especially if it's commonly repeated anecdotal evidence.Edited by OrdoHermetica on November 27, 2019 7:57AM0 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't think they feel the need to prove anything. The proof will be when the next expansion is announced.Lady_Linux wrote: »If they want to convince peopl the end istnt near, a good faith effort would be required.
It's actually the exact opposite. ZOS has said in the past that throwing hardware at the problems won't help. I'm sure if increasing their hardware footprint 10x would solve all of their problems, they would do it. They likely spend more money on designing glowy mount effects than hardware. Software development costs far more.Lady_Linux wrote: »As much as i appreciate the recent note about the group finder and the server load on pc eu, it seems clear that more servers are in fact necessary and there may in fact be no coding solution that will ever repair or correct the problem of needing more servers to carry the load...
The post about the activity finder gives us insight to how badly designed the game is at present time. A matchmaker system should not be lagging the rest of the game. It should be completely performance neutral to the point that if it was running on a server in orbit around the earth, no one would be able to tell. And this is the new and improved version(!?!!)
Different aspects of the game should all be heavily segmented. There's no reason the performance of an instance should be impacted by other unrelated parts of the game; even another instance of the same zone.
The root of all issues and all solutions are in software. ZOS has been focused on engineering new ways to sell us new things instead of fixing fundamental issues in the software we already paid for.
ESO performs akin to early ecommerce sites that were unreliable and would lag. But we paid for Amazon. No one should excuse the issues this game has. Zenimax is has the expertise and resources to deliver the product they sold to us as a major triple A publisher worth billions of dollars and with several studios within their corporate umbrella. They decided not to.
Software development isn't a black art anymore. Just as poorly performing search engines and ecommerce sites are a thing of the past, so too should be most of the performance issues we have in ESO.
If the group finder is indeed the root cause of the constant crashes, the skill lag, the FPS drops, the log in issues, the endless loading screens, etc., then I think this game is well and truly screwed. I have my doubts that this game will survive another year-long attempt to fix the group finder, because who’s going to continue paying for such a trash game experience?
Imagine, a modern AAA MMORPG brought to its knees in 2019 by a MATCHMAKING SYSTEM.2 -
redlink1979✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Some say it's dead since 2014 and yet... Here we are... LOL"Sweet Mother, sweet Mother, send your child unto me, for the sins of the unworthy must be baptized in blood and fear"- Sons of the Night Mother | VforVendetta | Grownups Gaming EU | English Elders [PS][EU] 2500 CP
- Daggerfall's Mightiest | Eternal Champions | Legacy | Tamriel Melting Pot [PS][NA] 2300 CP
- SweetTrolls | Spring Rose | Daggerfall Royal Legion | Tinnitus Delux [PC][EU] 2525 CP
- Bacon Rats | Silverlight Brotherhood | Canis Root Tea Party | Vincula Doloris [PC][NA] 2300 CP
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Lady_Linux✭✭✭✭✭
I don't think they feel the need to prove anything. The proof will be when the next expansion is announced.Lady_Linux wrote: »If they want to convince peopl the end istnt near, a good faith effort would be required.
It's actually the exact opposite. ZOS has said in the past that throwing hardware at the problems won't help. I'm sure if increasing their hardware footprint 10x would solve all of their problems, they would do it. They likely spend more money on designing glowy mount effects than hardware. Software development costs far more.Lady_Linux wrote: »As much as i appreciate the recent note about the group finder and the server load on pc eu, it seems clear that more servers are in fact necessary and there may in fact be no coding solution that will ever repair or correct the problem of needing more servers to carry the load...
The post about the activity finder gives us insight to how badly designed the game is at present time. A matchmaker system should not be lagging the rest of the game. It should be completely performance neutral to the point that if it was running on a server in orbit around the earth, no one would be able to tell. And this is the new and improved version(!?!!)
Different aspects of the game should all be heavily segmented. There's no reason the performance of an instance should be impacted by other unrelated parts of the game; even another instance of the same zone.
The root of all issues and all solutions are in software. ZOS has been focused on engineering new ways to sell us new things instead of fixing fundamental issues in the software we already paid for.
ESO performs akin to early ecommerce sites that were unreliable and would lag. But we paid for Amazon. No one should excuse the issues this game has. Zenimax is has the expertise and resources to deliver the product they sold to us as a major triple A publisher worth billions of dollars and with several studios within their corporate umbrella. They decided not to.
Software development isn't a black art anymore. Just as poorly performing search engines and ecommerce sites are a thing of the past, so too should be most of the performance issues we have in ESO.
If the group finder is indeed the root cause of the constant crashes, the skill lag, the FPS drops, the log in issues, the endless loading screens, etc., then I think this game is well and truly screwed. I have my doubts that this game will survive another year-long attempt to fix the group finder, because who’s going to continue paying for such a trash game experience?
Imagine, a modern AAA MMORPG brought to its knees in 2019 by a MATCHMAKING SYSTEM.
eharmony.com is out of the question i guess? Facebook has a new matchmaking system... or so they keep telling meI simply must protest. There are no Penguin avatars for me to use in the forums.
BTW, I use arch too0 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
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I wouldn't doubt it's doing fine. TES is a very popular IP that hasn't seen a proper release for almost a decade and Zenimax has great reach to directly market it to its other customers.I have my doubts that this game will survive another year-long attempt to fix the group finder, because who’s going to continue paying for such a trash game experience?
I believe ESO also has a huge following among Skyrim modding fans who used sites like Skyrim Nexus. Character customization and housing seemed very popular there.
It's really disappointing. We know the game launched late and unfinished in several obvious ways. I'd guess the engineering of the back end was compromised by the rush to get it launched and they haven't gone back to fix most of it.Imagine, a modern AAA MMORPG brought to its knees in 2019 by a MATCHMAKING SYSTEM.0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you guys think the game is going away any time soon, you have not been paying attention to other MMOs with cash shops. The game may seem to have hit a wall and lost quality but somehow, they make money off all of these cash shop items. We're not even in maintenance mode yet with updates every 3 months. Could probably use more maintenance and less push on new chapters, but the new stuff makes money.
It's really a matter of gamers thinking things are bad compared to what businesses think are bad. [snip]
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on January 14, 2024 6:19PM1 -
mague✭✭✭✭✭Many got their achievements done and there is always a low between two chapters. Since 2015 i got almost all done that is in my reach. But EOL is not here yet.0
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't think they feel the need to prove anything. The proof will be when the next expansion is announced.Lady_Linux wrote: »If they want to convince peopl the end istnt near, a good faith effort would be required.
It's actually the exact opposite. ZOS has said in the past that throwing hardware at the problems won't help. I'm sure if increasing their hardware footprint 10x would solve all of their problems, they would do it. They likely spend more money on designing glowy mount effects than hardware. Software development costs far more.Lady_Linux wrote: »As much as i appreciate the recent note about the group finder and the server load on pc eu, it seems clear that more servers are in fact necessary and there may in fact be no coding solution that will ever repair or correct the problem of needing more servers to carry the load...
The post about the activity finder gives us insight to how badly designed the game is at present time. A matchmaker system should not be lagging the rest of the game. It should be completely performance neutral to the point that if it was running on a server in orbit around the earth, no one would be able to tell. And this is the new and improved version(!?!!)
Different aspects of the game should all be heavily segmented. There's no reason the performance of an instance should be impacted by other unrelated parts of the game; even another instance of the same zone.
The root of all issues and all solutions are in software. ZOS has been focused on engineering new ways to sell us new things instead of fixing fundamental issues in the software we already paid for.
ESO performs akin to early ecommerce sites that were unreliable and would lag. But we paid for Amazon. No one should excuse the issues this game has. Zenimax is has the expertise and resources to deliver the product they sold to us as a major triple A publisher worth billions of dollars and with several studios within their corporate umbrella. They decided not to.
Software development isn't a black art anymore. Just as poorly performing search engines and ecommerce sites are a thing of the past, so too should be most of the performance issues we have in ESO.
If the group finder is indeed the root cause of the constant crashes, the skill lag, the FPS drops, the log in issues, the endless loading screens, etc., then I think this game is well and truly screwed. I have my doubts that this game will survive another year-long attempt to fix the group finder, because who’s going to continue paying for such a trash game experience?
Imagine, a modern AAA MMORPG brought to its knees in 2019 by a MATCHMAKING SYSTEM.
LOL. Again, you really need to read Rich's statement. Yea, Rich and Matt dropped the ball by ignoring our reports on the GF for an entire year but at last they are working on it.
Again, this is a much more complex system that something like Battlefront and a significantly larger server than that game and something like FF14. So it would seem to be a more complex issues while working on a solution just might crop up.
So if you would rather think the game is screwed and prefer to play Battlefront that is your prerogative. But I expect ESO has many more active players than that game and by the only measurements we have is up there with FF14 in total customers which is pretty significant given their longer track record in this industry.
Edit: TBH, if you really felt about ESO as you have adamantly argued in this thread then I question why you even bother with the forums let alone the game. I suggest you take break and maybe check it out again several months from now.Edited by idk on November 27, 2019 3:23PM0 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't think they feel the need to prove anything. The proof will be when the next expansion is announced.Lady_Linux wrote: »If they want to convince peopl the end istnt near, a good faith effort would be required.
It's actually the exact opposite. ZOS has said in the past that throwing hardware at the problems won't help. I'm sure if increasing their hardware footprint 10x would solve all of their problems, they would do it. They likely spend more money on designing glowy mount effects than hardware. Software development costs far more.Lady_Linux wrote: »As much as i appreciate the recent note about the group finder and the server load on pc eu, it seems clear that more servers are in fact necessary and there may in fact be no coding solution that will ever repair or correct the problem of needing more servers to carry the load...
The post about the activity finder gives us insight to how badly designed the game is at present time. A matchmaker system should not be lagging the rest of the game. It should be completely performance neutral to the point that if it was running on a server in orbit around the earth, no one would be able to tell. And this is the new and improved version(!?!!)
Different aspects of the game should all be heavily segmented. There's no reason the performance of an instance should be impacted by other unrelated parts of the game; even another instance of the same zone.
The root of all issues and all solutions are in software. ZOS has been focused on engineering new ways to sell us new things instead of fixing fundamental issues in the software we already paid for.
ESO performs akin to early ecommerce sites that were unreliable and would lag. But we paid for Amazon. No one should excuse the issues this game has. Zenimax is has the expertise and resources to deliver the product they sold to us as a major triple A publisher worth billions of dollars and with several studios within their corporate umbrella. They decided not to.
Software development isn't a black art anymore. Just as poorly performing search engines and ecommerce sites are a thing of the past, so too should be most of the performance issues we have in ESO.
If the group finder is indeed the root cause of the constant crashes, the skill lag, the FPS drops, the log in issues, the endless loading screens, etc., then I think this game is well and truly screwed. I have my doubts that this game will survive another year-long attempt to fix the group finder, because who’s going to continue paying for such a trash game experience?
Imagine, a modern AAA MMORPG brought to its knees in 2019 by a MATCHMAKING SYSTEM.
LOL. Again, you really need to read Rich's statement. Yea, Rich and Matt dropped the ball by ignoring our reports on the GF for an entire year but at last they are working on it.
Again, this is a much more complex system that something like Battlefront and a significantly larger server than that game and something like FF14. So it would seem to be a more complex issues while working on a solution just might crop up.
So if you would rather think the game is screwed and prefer to play Battlefront that is your prerogative. But I expect ESO has many more active players than that game and by the only measurements we have is up there with FF14 in total customers which is pretty significant given their longer track record in this industry.
Oh my god, @idk , I read Rich’s post. You’re making excuses for the developers. I frankly do not CARE if it’s a “complex” game to maintain, or if you choose to believe that ESO has more active players than one of the biggest FPS franchises on the market — it doesn’t change the fact that game performance in ESO is UNACCEPTABLE and that we’ve been hearing “we’re working on it” for way too long with no results.
Believe me, I love ESO and wish I could play the game again. If I didn’t enjoy the game and hadn’t invested so much time and money into it, I wouldn’t be this frustrated.4 -
UppGRAYxDD✭✭✭✭✭
✭Things that make you go hmmmmm: Q2 2020 update pushed to Q3 2020.... and the original Q3 2020 update was focused on texture code rewrites that would significantly increase performance... so now we gotta wait till Q4 2020 or later for the major performance update the community has been screaming about for 2 yrs..."Stendarr's mercy be upon you, for the vigil has none to spare."0 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If you guys think the game is going away any time soon, you have not been paying attention to other MMOs with cash shops. The game may seem to have hit a wall and lost quality but somehow, they make money off all of these cash shop items. We're not even in maintenance mode yet with updates every 3 months. Could probably use more maintenance and less push on new chapters, but the new stuff makes money.
It's really a matter of gamers thinking things are bad compared to what businesses think are bad. [snip]
Riiight?
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on January 14, 2024 6:20PM0 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭redlink1979 wrote: »Some say it's dead since 2014 and yet... Here we are... LOL
Some said Wildstar would kill it within months of launch....and yet, here we are....and RIP Wildstar LOL0 -
Anhedonie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No. May be in 2-4 years.Profanity filter is a crime against the freedom of speech. Also gags.0