Heavy armor in pvp

Stebarnz · November 2019

This is what happens when people who don't understand this game post silly things on a forum!

TequilaFire · November 2019

Shardaxx wrote: »

The problem is, heavy armor gives great resistance but not at the expense of other things.

Heavy armor should reduce your base move speed (it doesn't). That would sure put people off. What else?

Magicka characters get along just fine without the bonuses from light armor, so nobody wears it.

Medium gives good damage buff, but that's no use if you're dead. Cyro has often become about zerg trains and ball groups, and good luck surviving in the middle of that in light or medium armor.

With the right combo of skills, CP and gear, heavy all armor wearers can still have great sustain and good damage. So sadly, heavy has become the choice for most players. They really need to rebalance armor to make light and medium more attractive.

Fixed it.
All armor wearers can have great resistance as well.

MCBIZZLE300 · November 2019

Heavy comes at a cost of poor sustain and less damage. It is simply un true that you can deal close to as much damage as a medium or light user, the passives from medium and light boost damage significantly. The healing in dragonhold is the problem not the armor.

Artorias24 · November 2019

Pretty popular heavy armor setup is Fury/Truth and new moon. This setup is possible in medium and heavy.

Heavy will ofc have more resist but medium will have more Crit, more regen, more cost reduction and ofc more weapon damage. Medium can dodge and run like a young god while heavy eats your whole stam bar after 2 dodges and gets outrun by medium really fast.

The only benefit from heavy is simply more resist at the cost of damage, sustain, cost reduction and crit compared to medium. Sounds like a fair trade for me tho.

rabidmyers · November 2019

amir412 wrote: »

You think heavy armor is the problem?
Im at light armor , sitting at max resists with 3.6k sd and 44k max mag, 1k hp regen,

My stam sorc? Haha, nice one,
Med armor, 6.2k WD, 28k physical and spell resist without blood spawn, 1k hp regen.

[Edit to remove flaming]

whats the magicka class that u are referring to with the 3.6k sd and so on

MartiniDaniels · November 2019

Artorias24 wrote: »

Pretty popular heavy armor setup is Fury/Truth and new moon. This setup is possible in medium and heavy.

Heavy will ofc have more resist but medium will have more Crit, more regen, more cost reduction and ofc more weapon damage. Medium can dodge and run like a young god while heavy eats your whole stam bar after 2 dodges and gets outrun by medium really fast.

The only benefit from heavy is simply more resist at the cost of damage, sustain, cost reduction and crit compared to medium. Sounds like a fair trade for me tho.

Heavy has better magicka sustain due to constitution, more effective heavy attacks and more health recovery. And more healing received. And better sets. And crit chance is not that critical in no-CP unless on crit build. So it all depends on build... medium is better for specialized high dps builds... for well-rounded builds heavy looks more interesting imo.

Ragnarock41 · November 2019

Heavy dps meta is long dead. You're just living in the past.

Pauls · November 2019

amir412 wrote: »

My stam sorc? Haha, nice one,
Med armor, 6.2k WD, 28k physical and spell resist without blood spawn, 1k hp regen.

Im curious, whats are stats without CP?

Ragnarock41 · November 2019

Pauls wrote: »

show previous quotes

amir412 wrote: »

My stam sorc? Haha, nice one,
Med armor, 6.2k WD, 28k physical and spell resist without blood spawn, 1k hp regen.

Im curious, whats are stats without CP?

You can easily reach these stats in no-cp. Sustain will suffer depending on class though.

Nerftheforums · November 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

It's funny seeing people blame this, that and the other thing for the tank meta. None of that stuff is the root cause of the meta, so nerfing classes, skills or gear isn't going to solve anything.

The cause of the tanky meta is ESO's toxic PvP community. Players build to survive at all costs, because dying means getting t-bagged, hate-whispered or worse, humiliated on some obnoxious streamer's YouTube or Twitch channel.

Is there anything ZOS could do about it? Disabling cross-faction whispers in PvP zones would help a lot. They could ban all emotes in PvP, and fix corpse removal and respawning so that it always happens immedicately after death. They could even take the extreme measure of filing DMCA takedowns on all user-created Cyrodiil/IC/Battleground content. Other games have banned video footage, so it's definitely possible.

I can imagine that a lot of players would resist these types of changes, but I would be fine with any or all of them. I'd like to see people get back to playing instead of constantly farming "salt".

The drug you are using. I want some, please. It's for...research purposes...

Emma_Overload · November 2019

Nerftheforums wrote: »

show previous quotes

Emma_Overload wrote: »

It's funny seeing people blame this, that and the other thing for the tank meta. None of that stuff is the root cause of the meta, so nerfing classes, skills or gear isn't going to solve anything.

The cause of the tanky meta is ESO's toxic PvP community. Players build to survive at all costs, because dying means getting t-bagged, hate-whispered or worse, humiliated on some obnoxious streamer's YouTube or Twitch channel.

Is there anything ZOS could do about it? Disabling cross-faction whispers in PvP zones would help a lot. They could ban all emotes in PvP, and fix corpse removal and respawning so that it always happens immedicately after death. They could even take the extreme measure of filing DMCA takedowns on all user-created Cyrodiil/IC/Battleground content. Other games have banned video footage, so it's definitely possible.

I can imagine that a lot of players would resist these types of changes, but I would be fine with any or all of them. I'd like to see people get back to playing instead of constantly farming "salt".

The drug you are using. I want some, please. It's for...research purposes...

So you don't think players build tanky in order to avoid dying, when the price for dying is often so annoying?

REALLY?

L_Nici · November 2019

Is this post meant serious?
The overwhelming majority does run Heavy armor in PvP since it gives you high resistances and sustain without paying with to much damage for it. Just look at 7th Legion or Warriors Fury, both heavy sets that can push your weapon damage beyond any medium build.

Artorias24 · November 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

show previous quotes

Artorias24 wrote: »

Pretty popular heavy armor setup is Fury/Truth and new moon. This setup is possible in medium and heavy.

Heavy will ofc have more resist but medium will have more Crit, more regen, more cost reduction and ofc more weapon damage. Medium can dodge and run like a young god while heavy eats your whole stam bar after 2 dodges and gets outrun by medium really fast.

The only benefit from heavy is simply more resist at the cost of damage, sustain, cost reduction and crit compared to medium. Sounds like a fair trade for me tho.

Heavy has better magicka sustain due to constitution, more effective heavy attacks and more health recovery. And more healing received. And better sets. And crit chance is not that critical in no-CP unless on crit build. So it all depends on build... medium is better for specialized high dps builds... for well-rounded builds heavy looks more interesting imo.

Ye, magicka sustain is better in heavy. Heavy attacks give more Ressource but can be stopped by dodging it, staying out of range or reduced to half by blocking it. Recovery is more effective allowing higher dps cause heavy attacks reduce your dps by their channel time. Ye 8% more healing but 15% more weapon damage also increase healing by a lot.

No health Recovery but higher health yes, but still nothing that gives the same or more damage then a medium armor build.

ZOS_FalcoYamaoka · November 2019

Greetings,

Some posts were removed from this thread due to their non-constructive nature. Please remember to be civil and abide to the community rules in your discussions.

Asardes · November 2019

DRTE wrote: »

My suggestion allow the set items on jewelry weapons but the player cannot wear 5 piece into PvP zones. Max 2 for undaunted passive.

I don't see the point why would disable 5p sets in PvP or cap the Undaunted Mettle passive.

Heavy Armor is actually overrated, if you look at the stats:
- the extra resistance on 5H2M compared to 5M2H only accounts for only about 6-8% extra mitigation, depending on what resistances you already have (buffs, race/class passives, CP etc) since medium has 3/4 of the base resistance of heavy and you're only swapping the minor pieces in most cases, which have the least contribution.
- the extra 8% healing received from Rapid Mending with 5p heavy is offset by the extra 15% weapon damage from Agility with 5p medium since most of your own heals will scale on stamina and weapon damage; even more so in no-CP since you have 20% less stamina and weapon damage has other multipliers as well (minor/major brutality, class/skill passives).
- you do get extra mobility in medium while sprinting since it's faster, also roll dodge is cheaper - Athletics passive.
- medium also has better sustain from cost reduction and recovery multipliers from Wind Walker which is much stronger than Energized and Constitution combined - it's hard landing fully charged heavy attacks against good players.
- medium allows you easy access to Major Evasion from Shuffle, if you aren't a NB and you're not running 2W: Cloak. Shuffle also gives snare immunity, which means you can run Rally instead of Forward Momentum, for extra heals.

So the problem is not heavy armor, but some sets that give you high weapon damage when they meet some conditions. But most of those were actually changed a few patches back making them less consistent than before:
- Veiled Heritance has become almost useless since you need to interrupt to proc it, which is very situational
- Ravager now has a cooldown and it's harder to proc unless you have easily accessible resistance debuffs in your class skills or you combo it with NMG.
- Warrior's Fury also has a cooldown, but it's not hat hard to proc, you have now to time your burst with the peak weapon damage
- 7th Legion Brute now requires you to proc it with a skill that increases resistances, and the damage bonus is much less.
- New Moon Acolyte looks good on paper but you have to combo it with a sustain set to be workable, since the 5% cost increase is pretty taxing, more so if you're running a heavy build and you don't have as much Wind Walker to balance it.

Overall I consider that heavy and medium are nowadays pretty balanced compared to the past when heavy was indeed very strong and almost nobody used medium (remember the Wrath Passive and Black Rose set?)

Ragnarock41 · November 2019

Nerftheforums wrote: »

show previous quotes

Emma_Overload wrote: »

It's funny seeing people blame this, that and the other thing for the tank meta. None of that stuff is the root cause of the meta, so nerfing classes, skills or gear isn't going to solve anything.

The cause of the tanky meta is ESO's toxic PvP community. Players build to survive at all costs, because dying means getting t-bagged, hate-whispered or worse, humiliated on some obnoxious streamer's YouTube or Twitch channel.

Is there anything ZOS could do about it? Disabling cross-faction whispers in PvP zones would help a lot. They could ban all emotes in PvP, and fix corpse removal and respawning so that it always happens immedicately after death. They could even take the extreme measure of filing DMCA takedowns on all user-created Cyrodiil/IC/Battleground content. Other games have banned video footage, so it's definitely possible.

I can imagine that a lot of players would resist these types of changes, but I would be fine with any or all of them. I'd like to see people get back to playing instead of constantly farming "salt".

The drug you are using. I want some, please. It's for...research purposes...

Careful, it might make you a forum sorc.

WillhelmBlack · November 2019

Now then....

kringled_1 · November 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

show previous quotes

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

It's funny seeing people blame this, that and the other thing for the tank meta. None of that stuff is the root cause of the meta, so nerfing classes, skills or gear isn't going to solve anything.

The cause of the tanky meta is ESO's toxic PvP community. Players build to survive at all costs, because dying means getting t-bagged, hate-whispered or worse, humiliated on some obnoxious streamer's YouTube or Twitch channel.

Is there anything ZOS could do about it? Disabling cross-faction whispers in PvP zones would help a lot. They could ban all emotes in PvP, and fix corpse removal and respawning so that it always happens immedicately after death. They could even take the extreme measure of filing DMCA takedowns on all user-created Cyrodiil/IC/Battleground content. Other games have banned video footage, so it's definitely possible.

I can imagine that a lot of players would resist these types of changes, but I would be fine with any or all of them. I'd like to see people get back to playing instead of constantly farming "salt".

The drug you are using. I want some, please. It's for...research purposes...

So you don't think players build tanky in order to avoid dying, when the price for dying is often so annoying?

REALLY?

Of course people build tanky in order to avoid dying. I think the disagreement is whether what they find annoying about dying is the things you list as toxic pvp, or simply the inevitable respawn time and time to get back to where you were. People want to continue participating in the fight.

Asardes · November 2019

Actually having a dedicated healer in group or stacking vigor or other AoE heals in group has in practice a much higher effectiveness than wearing heavy armor or otherwise building "tanky". As I said the extra mitigation from wearing heavy is 6-8% which is clearly not enough to prevent you from getting bursted down if you get focused. You'll see plenty of 21-24K HP people in BGs who are wearing light or medium being extraordinarily hard to kill for the former reason.

Asardes · November 2019

I'd say over-effective healing is actually a bigger problem now than "tanky" players who can still do decent damage since the recent changes have:
- reduced damage from most DoTs - which were over-tuned in Scalebreaker, breaking balance in both PvP and PvE; actually weaker DoTs means *less* incentive to play in heavy armor, and *more* to change to medium, in order to compensate with higher WD and thus tool tips for direct damage skills.
- much harder access to Minor and Major Defile, it has been eliminated from quite a few skills that were used precisely because they had it - Incapacitating Strike and Reverberating Bash - or reduced ex. Lethal Arrow changed from Major to Minor.
- weaker Befoul CP (for CP PvP), a change that has been done earlier, CP PvP heavily favors defense, since you can buff both heals, resource pools and mitigation more than you can buff outgoing damage.
- eliminated a series of hard CCs from various skills - Dizzying Swing, Reach - which do not affect healing specifically, but will make it harder to CC & burst healers from groups, but this is a bit more nuanced since some skills can't be blocked to avoid stuns - Sorcerer: Streak.

ssewallb14_ESO · November 2019

Your awareness of PvP meta is like 3 patches out of date. The people you think are running heavy probably aren't running heavy. Armor right now is the most balanced it's ever been at any point, with a slight advantage to light/medium since the dot nerf.

StShoot · November 2019

Nerf this Nerf that, why do you not ask for a buff to light and medium amor ?!?!?! maybe an increase for sustain or something like that?

im so sick for this nerf threads, zos should start deleting the nerf threads instead of the quiting threads, than they would do something usefull.

Ragnarock41 · November 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

show previous quotes

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

It's funny seeing people blame this, that and the other thing for the tank meta. None of that stuff is the root cause of the meta, so nerfing classes, skills or gear isn't going to solve anything.

The cause of the tanky meta is ESO's toxic PvP community. Players build to survive at all costs, because dying means getting t-bagged, hate-whispered or worse, humiliated on some obnoxious streamer's YouTube or Twitch channel.

Is there anything ZOS could do about it? Disabling cross-faction whispers in PvP zones would help a lot. They could ban all emotes in PvP, and fix corpse removal and respawning so that it always happens immedicately after death. They could even take the extreme measure of filing DMCA takedowns on all user-created Cyrodiil/IC/Battleground content. Other games have banned video footage, so it's definitely possible.

I can imagine that a lot of players would resist these types of changes, but I would be fine with any or all of them. I'd like to see people get back to playing instead of constantly farming "salt".

The drug you are using. I want some, please. It's for...research purposes...

So you don't think players build tanky in order to avoid dying, when the price for dying is often so annoying?

REALLY?

First you call the PvP community toxic for building optimally.

then you suggest to disable cross-faction whispering, ban all emotes, and copyright strikes on content creators....

to solve ..... time to kill related problems.

I don't deny that people overreact to dying in this game but It comes from the lack of objective in PvP. There is truly nothing to fight for in this game, you fight to kill others and not get killed, as result meta and the builds revolve around this. Your ''toxicity'' theory has absolutely nothing to do with it, and your ''solution'' also solves nothing.

Beffagorn · November 2019

Play in No-CP. There's no such thing as "Tank meta" there.

If you build as tanky as possible (in No-CP) you're going to be just that. A Tank. Your sustain is going to be garbage and you're gonna deal no damage whatsoever.

CPs are the reason the tank meta exists. It has nothing to do with heavy armor. Light and Medium Armor builds can surpass Heavy Armor survivability while still having great sustain and damage. Trying to balance CP PvP is futile.

technohic · November 2019

Beffagorn wrote: »

Play in No-CP. There's no such thing as "Tank meta" there.

If you build as tanky as possible (in No-CP) you're going to be just that. A Tank. Your sustain is going to be garbage and you're gonna deal no damage whatsoever.

CPs are the reason the tank meta exists. It has nothing to do with heavy armor. Light and Medium Armor builds can surpass Heavy Armor survivability while still having great sustain and damage. Trying to balance CP PvP is futile.

You say that, yet I see plenty of whining for battlegrounds on tanky templars that heal each other to never die and still kill everything. It's no CP there; right?

Asardes · November 2019

technohic wrote: »

show previous quotes

Beffagorn wrote: »

Play in No-CP. There's no such thing as "Tank meta" there.

If you build as tanky as possible (in No-CP) you're going to be just that. A Tank. Your sustain is going to be garbage and you're gonna deal no damage whatsoever.

CPs are the reason the tank meta exists. It has nothing to do with heavy armor. Light and Medium Armor builds can surpass Heavy Armor survivability while still having great sustain and damage. Trying to balance CP PvP is futile.

You say that, yet I see plenty of whining for battlegrounds on tanky templars that heal each other to never die and still kill everything. It's no CP there; right?

Yep, exactly what I was saying before. The problem is not heavy armor, but rather healing vs. damage unbalance. And you don't even need Templars. 4 stamina players stacking Echoing Vigor on each other and tightly packed are the same, especially in medium armor - higher WD, higher healing. Especially if one it's a DK doing Fragmented Shield at the same time.

StaticWave · November 2019

Beffagorn wrote: »

Play in No-CP. There's no such thing as "Tank meta" there.

If you build as tanky as possible (in No-CP) you're going to be just that. A Tank. Your sustain is going to be garbage and you're gonna deal no damage whatsoever.

CPs are the reason the tank meta exists. It has nothing to do with heavy armor. Light and Medium Armor builds can surpass Heavy Armor survivability while still having great sustain and damage. Trying to balance CP PvP is futile.

There are so many things wrong with this statement that idk where to start...

eso_lags · November 2019

usmguy1234 wrote: »

I guarantee you'd see a lot more glass cannon type builds in pvp if the game didn't run like hot garbage.

💯

DRTE · November 2019

This was fun

Strider__Roshin · November 2019

Emma_Overload wrote: »

It's funny seeing people blame this, that and the other thing for the tank meta. None of that stuff is the root cause of the meta, so nerfing classes, skills or gear isn't going to solve anything.

The cause of the tanky meta is ESO's toxic PvP community. Players build to survive at all costs, because dying means getting t-bagged, hate-whispered or worse, humiliated on some obnoxious streamer's YouTube or Twitch channel.

Is there anything ZOS could do about it? Disabling cross-faction whispers in PvP zones would help a lot. They could ban all emotes in PvP, and fix corpse removal and respawning so that it always happens immedicately after death. They could even take the extreme measure of filing DMCA takedowns on all user-created Cyrodiil/IC/Battleground content. Other games have banned video footage, so it's definitely possible.

I can imagine that a lot of players would resist these types of changes, but I would be fine with any or all of them. I'd like to see people get back to playing instead of constantly farming "salt".

Amazing.