Are you okay with ESO getting on path of P2W model?

Hapexamendios · November 2019

You don’t know what pay to win means. Adding inventory slots isn’t it.

Shardaxx · November 2019

No

It's a slippery slope to paying crowns for a magic bracelet which adds 200 weapon and spell damage. Let's nip this in the bud right now and say NO.

richo262 · November 2019

Woodoochill wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

It was an outrage, I was in PvP and was killed by the non-combat pet. I then bought the non-combat pet myself and solo'd vSS. /s

Loaded question, and completely wrong on P2W.

5 inventory spots does help you win. It might save you an emergency trip to a vendor / decon station, but that is not winning, that is QOL.

If you were in a fight with somebody that has an INFINITE inventory, that would still not give them any combat advantage over you in PvP nor in any trial.

Trying to be funny huh? Sorry to announce you such sad thruth but you did not understand a single thing about topic.

You got me, you must have bought the P2W DLC pack at winning internet arguments.

I'll add, I returned to Cyrodil with my new P2W non-combat pet. I was shocked when it left my side and ran off to collect Volundrum by itself. I felt rejected and logged off quite saddened. I logged back on a few hours later to find that my boar kept on going while I was offline and was crowned Emperor. All hail Emperor Snorts-alot.

Watchdog · November 2019

I consider the boar pet one of the best looking pets in ESO. I bought it for the looks. The bag slots are simply an added bonus for me. I would have bought it instantly even without the bag slots.

Canned_Apples · November 2019

Yes

Yes, because that's the only thing ZoS knows how to do right.

Cavedog · November 2019

I'm not sure the OP addresses the P2W model.

But, the pet is stupid. We don't need each character to have more storage, we need more bank/housing storage. We need more storage crates and more communal storage in our banks/boxes.

It would be very beneficial if storage crates simply added more slots to your bank, and when you accessed a storage crate, it should be the same as accessing your entire bank contents along with your entire storage chest contents combined. It should be one storage pool no matter if at banker or storage chest.

Cavedog · November 2019

NBrookus wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

So you might as well ask is offering ESO+ for double bank space and infinite crafting bag being on the path of pay to win.
Same with buying houses -- people have to store excess furnishings in houses because otherwise their inventory would be full. Is buying houses for furnishing inventory space part of your P2W complaint too? Because houses cost A LOT of crowns and a lot of them can't be earned in-game or bought with gold and they can't be gifted.

Storage space can be achieved with free mule characters. No grind or no money needed. Just bypass tutorial and park naked in bank.

Housing is 100% cosmetic except if you need/want a place to drop your storage chests, and there are numerous free houses in game the serve that purpose.

The pig is a source of stats that can ONLY be acquired with real life money.

Forcing us to use toons for storage is a problem, not something to be promoted.

Having to use toons as mules is one of the dumbest things ZOS forced on us with this game.

Goregrinder · November 2019

Yes

There is Pay to Win. Where you 100% have to pay with money, not in game gold, not with time, in order to win. Those who played Allods Online like ten years ago will know what Pay to Win looks like.

Pay to Skip, is something completely different. Much like in Planetside 2, you can choose to pay for something either with your time, or your money. It's your choice.

Ratzkifal · November 2019

No

What P2W means really depends on the definition. Some people say only if it gives you an advantage over non-payers it's pay to win. That is still pretty loose. ESO+ give an advantage too, just not a combat advantage. Usually what is meant is that the maximum potential for payers and nonpayers must be the same otherwise it's pay to win.
But obviously if we look at other aspects of the game than combat, this is already the case. If Housing is your game, then it's already pay to win. Same with cosmetics and crafting.

I don't know if the 5 inventory slots increase the maximum amount of possible inventory slots, but if they don't then it's clearly not P2W. If you want to make that argument, then ESO+ is already P2W because it increased bank and inventory space dramatically beyond the maximum for nonsubscribers.
So whether we want to consider this pig a case of P2W or not doesn't matter, because if it is, there is already a bigger and more severe case of it out there. If it's not then the question doesn't have a point.

Let's assume the pig is P2W or supposedly paving the way for P2W. In that case, in the grand scheme of things, it has not really contributed anything to make the game more P2W other than adding 5 inventory slots per character. Those 5 slots per character won't make a difference because currently ESO+ players already have far superior inventory management. It adds virtually nothing new. Craft bag upgrades are already in the store and so are Capacity upgrades for your mount. They literally do the same thing (until a certain maximum that may or may not be exceeded by 5 slots from that pet) except that they are only per character and don't come with a cute piggy.

The only danger is the slippery slope this might set us on. If we accept that cosmetics have buffs or boni beyond being purely cosmetic, then ZOS might have an incentive to release new costumes and cosmetics with increasingly stronger buffs, possibly crossing the highly subjective P2W threshold at some point in the future. That is what we need to look out for! Not some pig that for all I care makes inventory management easier for people that don't spend money every month on this game, but do spend money occassionally.

StrykerGaming · November 2019

No

Woodoochill wrote: »

Subject of poll: New crownstore pet which increases inventory space by 5 slots accountwide for 1200 crowns.

I am not going do discuss with anyone whether it is or it is not P2W since it clearly follows the basic idea of advantage over regular players because they are unable to acquire it without spending crowns for it (I might be mistaken but can't find in under "not collected" pets where ingame obtainable pets are but if so, this poll is meaningless).

So far the crownstore items were only affecting the appearence of characters and fastening progress on alts (sky shards completion, skill lines, etc.) because you had to complete given achievement on any char. Upgrades like Bank space and inventory space could be bought but not exceed amount of inventory available by ingame methods, same for riding lessons.

Edit: Please notice that it got its own new category of "Inventory pets" so we can expect more of them coming which means how far will it go? 10 slots? 50 slots? 100slots?

To qualify as 'Pay to Win" the Crown store must sell items that directly enhance a toon's stats through gear and weapons and restrictive to a certain clientele (Premium Plus/VIP or whatever). None of this is available. Everything is available to all players in this game. If one chooses not to be Premium Plus, ect..., that is their choice. Benefits that those who do choose are available because of the Premium Plus. Even then, nothing is available to give any player an advantage over another.

Because they offer a pet that gives 5 extra spaces included in the deal is a package deal available to every single player in this game. Those who choose to buy it do not gain an advantage over another who chooses not to purchase this pet. 5 extra slots in an inventory does not affect a toon's stats or abilities.

This is the type of argument I see on the Blade & Soul forums where they want something for free when the Premium membership gives them some benefits for being premium members. If anyone wants this pet and the 5 slots, buy it. If I want it as a Premium Plus or whatever, I have to buy it. It is that simple. Furthermore, it is ideas like this that do nothing other than drive a wedge between those who are Premium players and who are not.

Woodoochill · November 2019

No

idk wrote: »

1. Your new argument you posted here on P2W is still very false. If I gold out my gear from gold I acquired in game the benefits are the same regardless of how I obtained the gold tempers. They get no added value because someone purchased them from a guild trader after trading crowns for gold.

If you are claiming that person who jumps into game and gets BIS in 1 month by purchasing golds for cash does not have any advantage over person who do not spent a single penny and has to work his ass off for it for half a year. Then I strongly disagree.

idk wrote: »

P2W, as I stated before and you conveniently edited out, is when you can buy something from the cash shop that will make your character stronger in battle than it could be with what is obtained in game.

I do not agree with you. Let me give you example... Black Desert Online pearl shop(similar to crownstore). For cash(but also available from daily login rewards sometimes) you can buy pets which loots for you, for another cash you can get more of them and make higher tiers which loots faster. Do they make you stronger? No. Then you can buy tent there where you can sell loot without need to go back to town thus making your grind time more effective. Do they make you stronger? No. You can buy outfits which increases your exp gain by 10% and even sell them on marketplace(auction). Do they make you stronger? No. And yes, you can buy even inventory and bank slots. Do they make you stronger? No. etc.
In the end its all pay for convenience BUT - when you take all these things, and compare player with them against player without it after 2000h of gameplay time there will be such noticable difference, that the convenience-less player will feel like he did not accomplish anything and most of all starts to have feeling of "what if I put those 100$ in like he did, I would surely be much much further than I am" and exactly that, my friend, is P2W - that feeling when you think for yourself "what if I payed for that small convenience back in last year"

And please save those bullshits like "why are you comparing eso to bdo" or "eso is completely different game" etc. And in case of need check what word example means.

idk wrote: »

2. You are equally wrong that the answers are self explanatory. With discussing the pet and falsly equating it as P2W some will answer yes that they are fine with the pet and others will answer no that they are not fine with Zos going P2W. Again, you conveniently edited out my previous explanation as it was inconvenient to your opinion.

The only single asked question is, if given person is okay with zos going P2W! There is no hidden content beneath it and if you see it its because you want it to be there. There is no other way how to approach such question. The description just and only explains what is currently happening, what is and always has been state of crownstore and therefore why was such question asked.
The fact that most of the comments are from ppl who did not understand, that its not about one pig increasing inventory by 5, but about such step being first in era of other similar(stats improving and unobtainable without real money) items

PS: I get kinda angry when falsely accused, and even more when its pointed out multiple times - I did not edit anything out. The only edit was adding couple of senteces, NOT CHANGING WORDS IN PREVIOUS ones!! And if you were talking about quotation I prefer keeping comments shorter, thus removing unnecessary parts which the response do not focus on, because everyone can find full texts themselfs or already know when following thread comment by comment as it should be done.

GhostofDatthaw · November 2019

Yes

I wouldn't exactly call it p2w. Some better things are locked behind dlcs but you don't exactly need them to be effective.

I voted yes because in the end zos is a company and they need to make money. If I'm being honest f2p is a joke and why they have to charge dlcs every month. I think this game would be better off with required sub, they would just have to deliver with better performance.

Woodoochill · November 2019

No

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Woodoochill wrote: »

Subject of poll: New crownstore pet which increases inventory space by 5 slots accountwide for 1200 crowns.

Following that logic, If indeed 5 slots per character was P2W, then every one using ESO+ would be a P2W player right ?

What is P2W imho is:
- DLC dungeon / trial / arena gear that access to, is locked behind a paywall. It is not tradable and it is far superior to base game gear or DLC / Chapter tradable / craftable gear.
- Access to skill lines (such as Psijic order) also happens to be locked behind additional payments.
- Being able to buy entire fully maxed skill line on an alt (if you have it maxed on other character) is a P2W imho, as it creates additional advantage, especially in low level PvP (There is simply no way you could max out those skill lines and still be low level in any other way).

So do I support P2W ? No. I dont. I also don't like "time-savers" as it only encourages game to be more and more grindy by design, so more people will buy those "time-savers"

ESO+ is unique system related to this game of B2P basic game and subscription not being required if you do not care about endgame group play. As @Ratzkifal wrote its highly subjective.

Woodoochill · November 2019

No

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The only danger is the slippery slope this might set us on. If we accept that cosmetics have buffs or boni beyond being purely cosmetic, then ZOS might have an incentive to release new costumes and cosmetics with increasingly stronger buffs, possibly crossing the highly subjective P2W threshold at some point in the future. That is what we need to look out for! Not some pig that for all I care makes inventory management easier for people that don't spend money every month on this game, but do spend money occassionally.

That is my main concern and reason for starting this poll

Recent · November 2019

Yes

I'm ok with the boar pet as I like practical things ingame and that 5 bag space is a practical thing to me. I don't see it as p2win

I was upset about zos selling skill lines not because i felt it was pay2win to be 100% honest but because i felt it cheapened my
sense of achievement...it is entirely my personal opinion and i have voiced it on these forums before and i received annoying remarks about how some people want the convenience and so on.....i get that and they got what they wanted but my opinion is not changed by what they want. I also didn't like zos selling tickets for event items like the indrik mounts again it's not pay2win but i worked and did the grind to get my indrik mounts and they then sell the tickets. That did feel like a huge slap in the face....no...a punch in the face more like it...left a bruise. So many would disagree with me and i respect they have their own personal reason but i feel the way i feel, it works both ways. Im surprised they are not selling vet dungeons achievements or vet trials achievements or vma achievements in the crown store, they are missing out of money there as i bet many playrs would pay for those achieves 😉😆😜I just remind myself it's just pixels at the end of the day.🤓

If anything I think zos want to make pets more appealing to players that would't normally buy pets by making them practical items rather than just cosmetic. Again it's only my opinion and there are millions of players with their own ideas.

I

Dusk_Coven · November 2019

Iluvrien wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

5 more slots in your inventory isnt winning. Anything.

Its pay 4 convenience.

@ArchMikem do you honestly believe that this is going to stop at a single item that grants only 5 slots?

Of course not. Next they will offer you a subscription in exchange for an unlimited Crafting Bag and double Bank space.

Woodoochill · November 2019

No

richo262 wrote: »

Woodoochill wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

It was an outrage, I was in PvP and was killed by the non-combat pet. I then bought the non-combat pet myself and solo'd vSS. /s

Loaded question, and completely wrong on P2W.

5 inventory spots does help you win. It might save you an emergency trip to a vendor / decon station, but that is not winning, that is QOL.

If you were in a fight with somebody that has an INFINITE inventory, that would still not give them any combat advantage over you in PvP nor in any trial.

Trying to be funny huh? Sorry to announce you such sad thruth but you did not understand a single thing about topic.

You got me, you must have bought the P2W DLC pack at winning internet arguments.

I'll add, I returned to Cyrodil with my new P2W non-combat pet. I was shocked when it left my side and ran off to collect Volundrum by itself. I felt rejected and logged off quite saddened. I logged back on a few hours later to find that my boar kept on going while I was offline and was crowned Emperor. All hail Emperor Snorts-alot.

Of course I did, I new right away that I would not stand a chance without such DLC. I will leave a hint there if someone stumle upon it - just head to feministsoftheworldunite.com and its under "advanced services" category.

Hail to the emperor! *raises bowl of oats* Not the hero we need, but the hero we deserve. May his reign is long, prosperous and the trough never gets empty!

Ratzkifal · November 2019

No

Woodoochill wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The only danger is the slippery slope this might set us on. If we accept that cosmetics have buffs or boni beyond being purely cosmetic, then ZOS might have an incentive to release new costumes and cosmetics with increasingly stronger buffs, possibly crossing the highly subjective P2W threshold at some point in the future. That is what we need to look out for! Not some pig that for all I care makes inventory management easier for people that don't spend money every month on this game, but do spend money occassionally.

That is my main concern and reason for starting this poll

Your original post doesn't do a very good job of explaining your standpoint or focusing the discussion on the issue that is your main concern then. Especially the way you say that you are not going to talk about whether it is P2W or not. By not explaining that sufficiently, you lead others to believe that you are convinced it is already P2W and it honestly isn't if you ask me. That distracts from what you want this poll to be about - the question whether cosmetics should have noncosmetic buffs attached to them at all or not.

Personally I think, with the way things are now, it is not an issue. It devaluates ESO+'s superior inventory management a little by offering a more permanent and affortable alternative. In that sense it is a step away from forcing people to keep paying to stay on top of things.
It would be a different story if it added something that ESO+ didn't do better already, say a boost to mage's guild XP gain or a skill point. Then this would be a more dangerous precedent. I'd say we should save our time and energy on a more concerning development in the future rather than wasting it now and crying P2Wolf every time until nobody listens anymore.

Woodoochill · November 2019

No

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Woodoochill wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The only danger is the slippery slope this might set us on. If we accept that cosmetics have buffs or boni beyond being purely cosmetic, then ZOS might have an incentive to release new costumes and cosmetics with increasingly stronger buffs, possibly crossing the highly subjective P2W threshold at some point in the future. That is what we need to look out for! Not some pig that for all I care makes inventory management easier for people that don't spend money every month on this game, but do spend money occassionally.

That is my main concern and reason for starting this poll

Your original post doesn't do a very good job of explaining your standpoint or focusing the discussion on the issue that is your main concern then. Especially the way you say that you are not going to talk about whether it is P2W or not. By not explaining that sufficiently, you lead others to believe that you are convinced it is already P2W and it honestly isn't if you ask me. That distracts from what you want this poll to be about - the question whether cosmetics should have noncosmetic buffs attached to them at all or not.

Personally I think, with the way things are now, it is not an issue. It devaluates ESO+'s superior inventory management a little by offering a more permanent and affortable alternative. In that sense it is a step away from forcing people to keep paying to stay on top of things.
It would be a different story if it added something that ESO+ didn't do better already, say a boost to mage's guild XP gain or a skill point. Then this would be a more dangerous precedent. I'd say we should save our time and energy on a more concerning development in the future rather than wasting it now and crying P2Wolf every time until nobody listens anymore.

Huh... Thank you... When you put it this way I see it too. Its too late to change it now and I am not going to start a new thread either. But I will remember it for next time, when hopefully I will be in better shape of being able to put a non-native language topics and their description together.

Rain_Greyraven · November 2019

Generational logic

P2W= Anything I can't afford or refuse to purchase.

Yawn bored now.

scorpius2k1 · November 2019

Plausible deniability

If one doesn't value logic, what logical argument would you invoke to prove they should value logic?

Da Nile isn't just a river in Egypt. The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

Dusk_Coven · November 2019

Woodoochill wrote: »

ESO+ is unique system related to this game of B2P basic game and subscription not being required if you do not care about endgame group play. As @Ratzkifal wrote its highly subjective.

"Unique" system? HAHAHAHA
And since when was ESO+ required for endgame group play? SWTOR does that with their subs, but not here.
Do you actually play ESO?

Anhedonie · November 2019

No

They are testing the waters. P2W is yet to come, but it is coming, I'm pretty sure.

AbysmalGhul · November 2019

*puts on cargo pants*
*Put on shades*

All I do is win win win no matter what!
Got money on my mind I can never get enough!
And every time I step up in the buildin'
Everybody hands go up!....

And they stay there!

kargen27 · November 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

No matter if this boar doesn't have impact on combat. It is not cosmetic, it grants statistics. There is one step from that to "elder scrolls artifacts" which will grant 5 piece bonus on 1 or 2 piece etc...

I'll propose to boycott it, but I heard from ton of people how they happily bought it, so it is kinda pointless, same people will buy artifacts with better stats too, P2W is inevitable for AAA products, it is only question of time.

This attitude is a big problem today in a variety of ways. You are trying to judge something on what might happen. You mention the five piece bonus and make your decision on the pig as if the imaginary artifact is real.

Is the boar pay to win? No.

Is it a step towards pay to win? Only if the game actually goes to pay to win. Until then it is just a pig that can hold five things.

r34lian · November 2019

No

In other games people show their cosmetics acquired by achievements here in eso people show how much they threw their money not to mention eso is pay to play

idk · November 2019

Woodoochill wrote: »

idk wrote: »

1. Your new argument you posted here on P2W is still very false. If I gold out my gear from gold I acquired in game the benefits are the same regardless of how I obtained the gold tempers. They get no added value because someone purchased them from a guild trader after trading crowns for gold.

If you are claiming that person who jumps into game and gets BIS in 1 month by purchasing golds for cash does not have any advantage over person who do not spent a single penny and has to work his ass off for it for half a year. Then I strongly disagree.

First of all this example of yours is a far cry from 5 extra inventory slots you are complaining about.

Second, the long held P2W stance is if based on being able to obtain gear or items via cash that would make their character stronger than it could be with what can be obtained in game. So your example is not P2W.

I edited out the rest because I really could care less about BDO. It is beneath me. I also do not expect you to agree with me and pretty much expect you to keep your incorrect opinion because it suits your stands that you are unhappy with what Zos has done. In the end, I am not interested in you agreeing with me or not. I am just pointing out the definition you are using is incorrect.

However, I will give you a piece of advice, if this is that big of an issue for you I suggest you leave the game now. This is not going to end and pretty sure Zos will not give this thread much thought because they know this is not P2W.

rpa · November 2019

No

If the Crown Store sells an advantage which can not be earned ingame, it is P2W. For example Crown Riding lessons are a from of P2W, because you can not skip the artificial time gate ingame. (Not a problem for me cause I'm not in a hurry. Skyshards &cet are not a problem for me, cause I may pay for playing a game but I'll never pay for not playing.)

Perks from ESO+ can be taken as blatant P2W or as a sub. I myself would prefer sub model if this game performed like a sub game should. (But find ESO+ is rather low value as sub because it does not include all content. Nickel and dime. Also if the publisher cared about quality and bug fixes it would increase my willingness to support this game.)

I myself will not P2W, no matter how great a new game is supposed to be, if I know it is P2W I will not even bother to try it for free. (I got ESO 2015, if I had not would not try playing ESO now.)

If I ever find I need to buy a P2W advantage, P2notwait or P2notplay or a Crown Crate to enjoy playing, I'll quit.

If the pet is earnable ingame, ok, if not I can do without 5 extra inventory slots for each character, maybe even 10. But at some point extra slots get too significant.

mocap · November 2019

5 more slots is P2W ?

Good luck 1vX in Cyro and vMHK HM with randoms with that bonus.

onemoredragon · November 2019

No

For all the "it's just Pay for Convenience" folks, I have a few words. Yes, we all choose what to do with our time and money. It might even seems like an actual and proud choice of ours, eh?

To make a player use a P2W advantage (which is not present in ESO as of now), the game company has to break through peoples' resistance to this model, even contempt in some cases. There's a hard paywall that stands in front of the player - am I to pay real money and make my character stronger, or am I to wallow in misery and remain weak and unviable?

Making a player use Pay for Convenience ''advantage'' is easier, it is done in a subtle way. There is no combat advantage, nothing that will make others point fingers at you saying you only defeated me because you bought the Mighty Armor from the store. It crawls inside you slowly but surely, making you feel defensive about whatever conveniences you purchased and your unarguable right to do with your time and money whatever you want.

Will it be different if you know that it is but a marketing manipulation, devised to make you addicted ot wishing for certain pleasantries in the game that are not available by just playing it? Will it be different if you realize that Pay for Convenience is actually Pay for Removing Artificially Created Inconvenience? Doesn't it feel a bit more... right to support your favourite game by buying a thing that devs actually worked on (new zones, dungeons, quests, game challenges) instead of something that the devs basically click to unlock on your account (your skyshards, your skill lines, your craft bag even, etc)?

As a person who worked in the game industry with way more agressive monetization and marketing practices, my only real wish and concern is that maybe you should become more mindful of what you're buying and what made you buy it. What if the only choice you truly made on your own was the initial purchase of ESO, driven by curiousity, longing for en elder scrolls game or simply desiring to try a new MMO back then?

I'm not trying to accuse anyone here, so don't get me wrong. Seeing a lot of threads on this matter, I notice an ongoing tendency when people often misinterpret what the OP was trying to say. They are not saying ESO is P2W, but showing concern whether ESO is ''getting on the path on P2W'' or not, and the readers' opinion on that subject.

TLDR: and here's my opinion, see the pic below.