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Misconceptions regarding DPS today vs DPS 1-2 years ago.
-
Casul✭✭✭✭✭
✭ValueDrift wrote: »You are right, I often see people compare Iron Atronarch numbers of today to 6 mil dummy numbers of the past when the two have little in common and shouldn't be compared. Also these parse videos tend to run 11K health which you might not want to do against targets that fight back.
Yeah I do all my parses with 12k HP, but I also don't use a healer so in a actual trial I can assume that orbs can make up for the Regen I lost.
What about the shards dropped during the atro parse? Doesn’t that account for regen? Isn’t there a cooldown on shards/orbs?
Sorry I was referencing a 3 mil or 6 mil parse. On atro I would use bi stat food.PvP needs more love.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »l
This demonstrates that the power creep has not only been real but has been real significant.
I don't think it's significant at all. Less and less people are able to do hard content for something that was already very gated. Looking at the best guild quickly compete content they've been doing for years does a poor job of actually telling the significance of power creep.
This is not talking about the best guilds quickly clearing content. This is demonstrating the reality that the power creep is so significant that they can clear it in less than half the pads it used to required. It is clear and solid evidence.
The rest of your comment is rather vague. It sounds like you are suggesting that because players are challenged in the newer content that power creep is not the case. That is an absurd comparison to begin as it is comparing apples to oranges since the newer content is scaled more to the power creep and it is more mechanic driven than the older content like even vMoL. Fact is many players can clear vMoL today that could not a couple years ago due to the lack of DPS.
So deny the hard and solid certitude that power creep is real all you want. We can all have our own opinions. I just prefer to have something real to base mine on.1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Hello everyone,
Lately I have been seeing people making claims about how DPS is so much greater now then a year or two ago. I have an issue with this statement as I am not sure how true it is.
A little backstory, I started playing DPS at the beginning of this year. My first parse on a 300k was 6k (ouch I know lol) over the course of the last 10 months I have improved greatly, maxing out at 51.5k on a 3 mil, or 48k on a 6 mil (solo parse no healer/tank sustain food)
I remember back before this year how most people considered 35-40k to be high DPS, so seeing 50-60k bring possible definitely shows that it had gone up. But I see a lot of people who are using people that hit 90-100k and are claiming that this is the true power creep. I feel this is misleading for two reasons.
1.) The iron atro did not exist during the time frame where 35-40k was considered high. Had it existed I suspect most people would have DPS in the 70-80k realm.
2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.
Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.
TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.
Pretty much no one who is a serious raider cares about what people parse on a dummy. Serious raiders only look at target dummies to refine and test rotations and builds.
What we do care about is the dps we can do on actual bosses that do not stand still like a target dummy (I.e Mage does not count). Even when we do want to look at dummy numbers for maybe testing a new player who does not have actual boss parses we want a high health dummy.
How we do in older trials is a great example of the power creep over the years. vMoL and especially vMoL HM are great examples since we can see how many pads are used which directly reflects the groups dps.
The first video is a Hodor clear from 5 Feb 2017 and at about 4:40 minutes in you can see the pad 7 burn of Rakkhat. Hodor has been one of the top raiding teams in this game for a long time. I picked them for the older video to ensure there was no appearance of cherry picking videos.
The second video is from 27 Jan 2019 and they begin a pad 3 burn about 2:30 minutes into the fight.
Both of these fights are in HM and that much difference would not be possible without a significant increase in dps over those 2 years. This demonstrates that the power creep has not only been real but has been real significant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWpyYDdqUrQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLpROTTFJd4
Maybe your videos here aren't intentionally cherry-picked but ... they kind of are anyway.
Hodor was pushing Rakkhat to execute from pad 5 quite a while prior to the first video you posted. They just hadn't perfected the strategy yet. And a week after the first video you posted, they're no-deathing the pad 5 nuke.
A lot of this is player skill, group comp, strategy, practice, gear grind, etc., rather than just raw "power creep" of DPS potential.
But anyway, yeah, obviously power creep exists. But who cares? Isn't that the point of long-term progression in an MMO? New content is built around current power. Old content gets trivialized. That's just the way things work.8 -
Emmagoldman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Emmagoldman wrote: »
I still remember twice born meta. Doesn't even seem that long ago. This game has certainly changed since then
Yeah, with the op, they mention 1 to 2 years (and that's when they started) by going out 3 years and past is a world different. IA was really just for that minor slayer
Think of stam:
Hundings, briaheart or AY with vicious serpent. In fact, you might not even bring stam and just magsorcs.
Relquien and lokk ( major slayer) are so much more powerful.
1 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »SidraWillowsky wrote: »In my opinion, the Iron Atro dummy is absurd and has been a detriment to the ESO community as a whole. The VAST majority of players will NEVER play in groups organized enough to see the numbers they pull on the iron atro dummy. People claim that it’s a way to standardize parses, but come ON. I’m at around 72k on the atro dummy but have never, ever come even close to that on a single target in trials. If I’m lucky I’ll pull about 50k on a rather static boss fight, which is what I can pull on a 6 mil dummy.
Unless someone is looking to be the l33test of the l33t, their 21 mil parse will likely to wildly unrealistic.
Standardization is the point, though. You can compare DPS across classes and specs. You can compare rotations and builds without having to worry about whether some effect or buff/debuff is skewing your numbers. You have a synergy to proc sets like Lokkestiiz and Moondancer. It allows you to parse completely solo without relying on a partner to provide fracture or breach or Combat Prayer. It eliminates the unrealistic need to fit Ele Drain into a rotation.
It's especially nice for console raiders who can't ever see their actual DPS in real fights.
Anyway, not every tool is for everyone.
It's good for comparing apples to apples. What's happening in some cases is it is being used to quantify the power creep by comparing parses from a year ago against a 6m target. That's apples to oranges and in that sense it's harmful, assuming anyone with any real ability to influence the games direction takes it seriously.
Well, I would hope that anyone with two brain cells to rub together would see that that's ridiculous. Even on console I remember people hitting 70-80k in "raid parses" back in the CWC meta, prior to Lokke and Relequen. But of course back then we had Mechanical Acuity/Sunderflame/NMG.
Agree, but it does happen.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Hello everyone,
Lately I have been seeing people making claims about how DPS is so much greater now then a year or two ago. I have an issue with this statement as I am not sure how true it is.
A little backstory, I started playing DPS at the beginning of this year. My first parse on a 300k was 6k (ouch I know lol) over the course of the last 10 months I have improved greatly, maxing out at 51.5k on a 3 mil, or 48k on a 6 mil (solo parse no healer/tank sustain food)
I remember back before this year how most people considered 35-40k to be high DPS, so seeing 50-60k bring possible definitely shows that it had gone up. But I see a lot of people who are using people that hit 90-100k and are claiming that this is the true power creep. I feel this is misleading for two reasons.
1.) The iron atro did not exist during the time frame where 35-40k was considered high. Had it existed I suspect most people would have DPS in the 70-80k realm.
2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.
Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.
TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.
Pretty much no one who is a serious raider cares about what people parse on a dummy. Serious raiders only look at target dummies to refine and test rotations and builds.
What we do care about is the dps we can do on actual bosses that do not stand still like a target dummy (I.e Mage does not count). Even when we do want to look at dummy numbers for maybe testing a new player who does not have actual boss parses we want a high health dummy.
How we do in older trials is a great example of the power creep over the years. vMoL and especially vMoL HM are great examples since we can see how many pads are used which directly reflects the groups dps.
The first video is a Hodor clear from 5 Feb 2017 and at about 4:40 minutes in you can see the pad 7 burn of Rakkhat. Hodor has been one of the top raiding teams in this game for a long time. I picked them for the older video to ensure there was no appearance of cherry picking videos.
The second video is from 27 Jan 2019 and they begin a pad 3 burn about 2:30 minutes into the fight.
Both of these fights are in HM and that much difference would not be possible without a significant increase in dps over those 2 years. This demonstrates that the power creep has not only been real but has been real significant.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWpyYDdqUrQhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLpROTTFJd4
Maybe your videos here aren't intentionally cherry-picked but ... they kind of are anyway.
Hodor was pushing Rakkhat to execute from pad 5 quite a while prior to the first video you posted. They just hadn't perfected the strategy yet. And a week after the first video you posted, they're no-deathing the pad 5 nuke.
A lot of this is player skill, group comp, strategy, practice, gear grind, etc., rather than just raw "power creep" of DPS potential.
But anyway, yeah, obviously power creep exists. But who cares? Isn't that the point of long-term progression in an MMO? New content is built around current power. Old content gets trivialized. That's just the way things work.
They are not cherry picked by any means. I merely searched a 6 month window of time and considering that Hodor is one of the top two or three raiding guilds in the game figure it was a good one to pick.
Ofc, if they were doing a pad 5 nuke then the differential still holds as that other video, that I do think is Hodor, is doing a pad 3 burn.
and Of course player skill, group comp, etc go into forming a good team and that makes much of the difference between the groups that could clear vMoL, let alone vMoL HM, back in the first year vs those who could not. Player skill is the first part that makes the most difference because the rest does not do as much of the players themselves are lacking.
And I am not complaining about power creep, or suggesting it is no big deal. I am merely pointing out the falsehood that the OP thinks the notion of power creep is not true and it is merely due to different size test dummies.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »l
This demonstrates that the power creep has not only been real but has been real significant.
I don't think it's significant at all. Less and less people are able to do hard content for something that was already very gated. Looking at the best guild quickly compete content they've been doing for years does a poor job of actually telling the significance of power creep.
This is not talking about the best guilds quickly clearing content. This is demonstrating the reality that the power creep is so significant that they can clear it in less than half the pads it used to required. It is clear and solid evidence.
The rest of your comment is rather vague. It sounds like you are suggesting that because players are challenged in the newer content that power creep is not the case. That is an absurd comparison to begin as it is comparing apples to oranges since the newer content is scaled more to the power creep and it is more mechanic driven than the older content like even vMoL. Fact is many players can clear vMoL today that could not a couple years ago due to the lack of DPS.
So deny the hard and solid certitude that power creep is real all you want. We can all have our own opinions. I just prefer to have something real to base mine on.
You wrote that it was both REAL and SIGNIFICANT.
I stated that it was real, but that your methodology was poor for getting a good understanding. Because it is. Regardless if it was real or not, you will be much faster at clearing content you've been running for years than you will at clearing content that your fairly new too. It's called experience and it biases your test. The best method is to look at a standarized test. Do the same exact test you did on a normal 6 million dummy using the same buffs/debuffs but with your superior gear and rotations. And then compare that number over the years.
That's something that gives you a real look because there isn't much time to shave with things like experience.
Finally I stated that it's significance is questionable. Because hitting higher numbers on it's own isn't power creep. There is a certain level of progression expected that demands better numbers throughout the years. And the level of content scales in difficulty with this increased power, ensuring that the level of difficulty for the new top content remains on par with what used to be your play experience on the older content. That's normal progression and isn't power creep.
Power creep happens when normal progression ceases to be normal, and instead begins to impact play experience negatively.
Have the dungeons become way too hard for even the best players to reasonably practice and complete? No. People practice these the same way they always and they can still train new members to do it.
Is the top content in this game something everyone can do? No. It remains an absurdly small amount of people that can do it.
Has the content for normal players doing the normal modes exceeded the difficulty in which they can just group up with a random group using random gear and get that content done? Nope. You can still complete all that stuff on normal using base game gear.
Are some of the better older sets still useful in helping you progress? Yes. Even now sets like Mother's Sorrow is still good enough to get you into the groups you need to the things you need with ease. The game is not a bunch of people rushing new content to get the new stuff and then refusing to take anyway else new to get their own because the difference is just too dramatic. And yes, plenty of MMOs have had to nerf stuff because that happens.
Is the top end shrinking too much because their requirements are too neccessarily stringent to get harder content done?
This is beginning to be the case and may indicate that some of the top performers need to be nerfed in a very targetted way that doesn't effect anyone else. Or perhaps they should simply nerf some of the high end content.
A top guild being able to shave off time in OLD content isn't power creep. Not only should they be significantly faster anyway from sheer experience, but they also should be stronger through natural progression.
Games like this one don't and shouldn't stagnate. The problem, power creep, only happens when that progression reaches a point where there is undesirable results. And that isn't the case with this game. If anything the playerbase could use a boost in power, not less.
3 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »For example, today I was in the Bonesnap Ruins public dungeon. There was someone in there running around gathering up all the enemies he could find and then instantly destroying all of them. This meant that everyone else in the dungeon had nothing to DO... and that's not good for the game as a whole.
As I say, my dps is only around 4-5k, and I can do all the world content (even most World Bosses). If I go into a Veteran Dungeon (even a NORMAL dungeon), I'm not going to be able to do much of ANYTHING. A group of casual players like me would never be able to do Dungeons or Trials... and I don't think it should BE that way. At least, not at normal levels.
That I can do most of the world content reliably, but still with SOME challenge suggests that my damage is adequate at the lower end. That I can't do higher end content AT ALL suggests that the requirements at the top end are too high for more casual players.
If I am grinding up a skill in a public dungeon and see a player obviously doing the same at a much lower rate, I invite them to group so they get more XP. You can ask for the same courtesy. A 2 man group gets an XP buff anyway.
That said, if you are max level and doing 4-5k dps, something is very wrong. 20k is simple to reach even in crafted gear, and will be sufficient for non DLC vet dungeons and normal Craglorn trials if you learn the mechanics. No sweaty try hard needed. If you want to do this kind of content, I suggest you reach out to your guilds for a little one on one help.
1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »l
This demonstrates that the power creep has not only been real but has been real significant.
I don't think it's significant at all. Less and less people are able to do hard content for something that was already very gated. Looking at the best guild quickly compete content they've been doing for years does a poor job of actually telling the significance of power creep.
This is not talking about the best guilds quickly clearing content. This is demonstrating the reality that the power creep is so significant that they can clear it in less than half the pads it used to required. It is clear and solid evidence.
The rest of your comment is rather vague. It sounds like you are suggesting that because players are challenged in the newer content that power creep is not the case. That is an absurd comparison to begin as it is comparing apples to oranges since the newer content is scaled more to the power creep and it is more mechanic driven than the older content like even vMoL. Fact is many players can clear vMoL today that could not a couple years ago due to the lack of DPS.
So deny the hard and solid certitude that power creep is real all you want. We can all have our own opinions. I just prefer to have something real to base mine on.
You wrote that it was both REAL and SIGNIFICANT.
I stated that it was real, but that your methodology was poor for getting a good understanding. Because it is. Regardless if it was real or not, you will be much faster at clearing content you've been running for years than you will at clearing content that your fairly new too. It's called experience and it biases your test. The best method is to look at a standarized test. Do the same exact test you did on a normal 6 million dummy using the same buffs/debuffs but with your superior gear and rotations. And then compare that number over the years.
First off I never claimed that I was making an " ideal" comparison and that is exactly what you are attempting to argue.
Further, your argument of methodology is about as poor as you are making mine out to be. Your stance is based on those teams continuously working on the same content with vigor (not the skill) when in fact we focus our attention on the newest trial and do not run the older trials that much
Of course a standard test dummy parse would be ideal but since you are not coming up with an example that shows us clearing vMoL Rakkhat HM on pad 3 in Feb 2017 it seems more like you are just trying to start an argument for the sake of having one. As such I am done with this petty line conversation.0 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This is the reason why they are constantly nerfing things...Hello everyone,
Lately I have been seeing people making claims about how DPS is so much greater now then a year or two ago. I have an issue with this statement as I am not sure how true it is.
A little backstory, I started playing DPS at the beginning of this year. My first parse on a 300k was 6k (ouch I know lol) over the course of the last 10 months I have improved greatly, maxing out at 51.5k on a 3 mil, or 48k on a 6 mil (solo parse no healer/tank sustain food)
I remember back before this year how most people considered 35-40k to be high DPS, so seeing 50-60k bring possible definitely shows that it had gone up. But I see a lot of people who are using people that hit 90-100k and are claiming that this is the true power creep. I feel this is misleading for two reasons.
1.) The iron atro did not exist during the time frame where 35-40k was considered high. Had it existed I suspect most people would have DPS in the 70-80k realm.
2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.
Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.
TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.
How so? I'm claiming the power creep is not as severe as others are saying.
Did you not read the post? 40k used to be the "cutting edge of dps", now people are doing 100k. That's why Zos is nerfing stuff.0 -
Grandma✭✭✭✭✭in my experience 40-50k translates directly to 70-80k. If one or the other bothers you i recommend just standardizing all your parses on one particular type of dummy.
also keep in mind dps meta has gone berserk over the past 2 years. we went from nightblade meta to necro meta and tons of strange things have happened to skills and gear since then. We have relequen now [ an easy 9k+ dps exclusively by itself on trial dummy parses] and stuff like siroria that inflate dps numbers as well.GH / 3/04/2021 / Elemental Catalyst Necromancer1 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This is the reason why they are constantly nerfing things...Hello everyone,
Lately I have been seeing people making claims about how DPS is so much greater now then a year or two ago. I have an issue with this statement as I am not sure how true it is.
A little backstory, I started playing DPS at the beginning of this year. My first parse on a 300k was 6k (ouch I know lol) over the course of the last 10 months I have improved greatly, maxing out at 51.5k on a 3 mil, or 48k on a 6 mil (solo parse no healer/tank sustain food)
I remember back before this year how most people considered 35-40k to be high DPS, so seeing 50-60k bring possible definitely shows that it had gone up. But I see a lot of people who are using people that hit 90-100k and are claiming that this is the true power creep. I feel this is misleading for two reasons.
1.) The iron atro did not exist during the time frame where 35-40k was considered high. Had it existed I suspect most people would have DPS in the 70-80k realm.
2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.
Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.
TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.
How so? I'm claiming the power creep is not as severe as others are saying.
Did you not read the post? 40k used to be the "cutting edge of dps", now people are doing 100k. That's why Zos is nerfing stuff.
Big sources of dps boosts in recent years
1) LA damage buffs
2) Jewelry crafting
3) Off-balance changes
4) Olorime/Relequen/Lokk/False God/Yolna
5) Major Vulnerability
6) More powerful foods
If you don’t shell out cash you benefit fully only from the LA changes and Off-balance changes,
Having to pay for more power to take on new content that comes with the bonuses you paid for isn’t a new thing. The nerfing of older gear (NMG and Sunder), base game skills, and base game foods (Dubious, Witch Mother), is a not so subtle push to make sure “competitive player” means “moneymaker”2 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This is the reason why they are constantly nerfing things...Hello everyone,
Lately I have been seeing people making claims about how DPS is so much greater now then a year or two ago. I have an issue with this statement as I am not sure how true it is.
A little backstory, I started playing DPS at the beginning of this year. My first parse on a 300k was 6k (ouch I know lol) over the course of the last 10 months I have improved greatly, maxing out at 51.5k on a 3 mil, or 48k on a 6 mil (solo parse no healer/tank sustain food)
I remember back before this year how most people considered 35-40k to be high DPS, so seeing 50-60k bring possible definitely shows that it had gone up. But I see a lot of people who are using people that hit 90-100k and are claiming that this is the true power creep. I feel this is misleading for two reasons.
1.) The iron atro did not exist during the time frame where 35-40k was considered high. Had it existed I suspect most people would have DPS in the 70-80k realm.
2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.
Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.
TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.
How so? I'm claiming the power creep is not as severe as others are saying.
Did you not read the post? 40k used to be the "cutting edge of dps", now people are doing 100k. That's why Zos is nerfing stuff.
Big sources of dps boosts in recent years
1) LA damage buffs
2) Jewelry crafting
3) Off-balance changes
4) Olorime/Relequen/Lokk/False God/Yolna
5) Major Vulnerability
6) More powerful foods
If you don’t shell out cash you benefit fully only from the LA changes and Off-balance changes,
Having to pay for more power to take on new content that comes with the bonuses you paid for isn’t a new thing. The nerfing of older gear (NMG and Sunder), base game skills, and base game foods (Dubious, Witch Mother), is a not so subtle push to make sure “competitive player” means “moneymaker”
We also used to have ...
Basically infinite sustain without any support via CP.
As you said, the unique NMG/Sunderflame debuffs.
Major Force was 30% multiplicative versus 15% additive.
Minor Force was 12%.
Sharpened was double its current value.
The Thief and The Shadow were absurdly strong, and combined with the old Major Force made TBS incredibly powerful.
Dual Wield enchants were full-strength.
Maelstrom/Master weapons had 1-piece bonuses.
Maelstrom DW was +3000 Weapon Damage on DoTs.
Dawnbreaker was +5% WD passively.
Maelstrom Bow/Hail was much stronger than it is now.
Awesomely fun and strong Mechanical Acuity.
Insanely OP Redguard passives.
And of course a bunch of other stuff.
So yeah, we've got cool new toys but we also used to have cool toys and they mostly all got nerfed into the ground over the years.4 -
izanagiprime✭✭Re: the notion that people rely too much on dummies and their results...
...only if they take it literally. Nobody with sense expects a player to actually pull 80-100k in a real trial fight. At least, I feel safe in saying it doesn't happen. However. If the most practiced, reliable players can hit that mark while standing still and under no pressure, while people who aren't quite as skilled max out at about 50k in the same conditions (and poor players average at 20-30k), it still gives an idea of their relative skill compared to the people you already know can get the job done.
I feel like this is how most people use the dummies. For practice and basic benchmarking.
And yet... a simple glance across the other forums will let you find all sorts of posts, where people consider 20-30k dps as trash, because they're supposed to be doing 50-60k.1 -
pod88kk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think the main reason why people say it is because we had less champion points 2 years ago0 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »This is the reason why they are constantly nerfing things...Hello everyone,
Lately I have been seeing people making claims about how DPS is so much greater now then a year or two ago. I have an issue with this statement as I am not sure how true it is.
A little backstory, I started playing DPS at the beginning of this year. My first parse on a 300k was 6k (ouch I know lol) over the course of the last 10 months I have improved greatly, maxing out at 51.5k on a 3 mil, or 48k on a 6 mil (solo parse no healer/tank sustain food)
I remember back before this year how most people considered 35-40k to be high DPS, so seeing 50-60k bring possible definitely shows that it had gone up. But I see a lot of people who are using people that hit 90-100k and are claiming that this is the true power creep. I feel this is misleading for two reasons.
1.) The iron atro did not exist during the time frame where 35-40k was considered high. Had it existed I suspect most people would have DPS in the 70-80k realm.
2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.
Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.
TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.
How so? I'm claiming the power creep is not as severe as others are saying.
Did you not read the post? 40k used to be the "cutting edge of dps", now people are doing 100k. That's why Zos is nerfing stuff.
Big sources of dps boosts in recent years
1) LA damage buffs
2) Jewelry crafting
3) Off-balance changes
4) Olorime/Relequen/Lokk/False God/Yolna
5) Major Vulnerability
6) More powerful foods
If you don’t shell out cash you benefit fully only from the LA changes and Off-balance changes,
Having to pay for more power to take on new content that comes with the bonuses you paid for isn’t a new thing. The nerfing of older gear (NMG and Sunder), base game skills, and base game foods (Dubious, Witch Mother), is a not so subtle push to make sure “competitive player” means “moneymaker”
We also used to have ...
Basically infinite sustain without any support via CP.
As you said, the unique NMG/Sunderflame debuffs.
Major Force was 30% multiplicative versus 15% additive.
Minor Force was 12%.
Sharpened was double its current value.
The Thief and The Shadow were absurdly strong, and combined with the old Major Force made TBS incredibly powerful.
Dual Wield enchants were full-strength.
Maelstrom/Master weapons had 1-piece bonuses.
Maelstrom DW was +3000 Weapon Damage on DoTs.
Dawnbreaker was +5% WD passively.
Maelstrom Bow/Hail was much stronger than it is now.
Awesomely fun and strong Mechanical Acuity.
Insanely OP Redguard passives.
And of course a bunch of other stuff.
So yeah, we've got cool new toys but we also used to have cool toys and they mostly all got nerfed into the ground over the years.
That was my point. Look at where all that power used to come from: base game features (besides Maelstrom and Mechanical, that is). All that power got shifted from universally accessible content, to paid content only. Hunding's and VO will still net good numbers, but it'll be less than they used to pull years back if all else in the build is the same.0 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I think the main reason why people say it is because we had less champion points 2 years ago
The difference between CP501 (the first cap) and today's value from it, is HIGHLY overstated. Anyone claiming that's the main source of added power over the years has no idea what they're talking about to be perfectly blunt with you1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think the main reason why people say it is because we had less champion points 2 years ago
Champion points have such a steep curve that they have done very little to add to the power creep.
Not including recent updates where Zos is implementing this amazing new vision for combat, Zos has pretty much made changes every patch that has increased damage. They really have lacked a clue how to manage this game which all comes from Matt Firor's amazing leadership and guidance to the team.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭First off I never claimed that I was making an " ideal" comparison and that is exactly what you are attempting to argue.So deny the hard and solid certitude that power creep is real all you want. We can all have our own opinions. I just prefer to have something real to base mine on.
No. It isn't. Don't make asinine and condescending comments like this one if you don't want people making comments on exactly what they found wrong with your methodology.Further, your argument of methodology is about as poor as you are making mine out to be. Your stance is based on those teams continuously working on the same content with vigor (not the skill) when in fact we focus our attention on the newest trial and do not run the older trials that much
No. It isn't based on that. It's based on the fact that as you accumulate experience you get better at things. A person above even helpfully provided an example of that same guild with more experience just a week later burning him down on pad 5. Which is unsurprising. They naturally got faster without any power creep through practice and experience. Your proof just wasn't a compelling example.Of course a standard test dummy parse would be ideal but since you are not coming up with an example that shows us clearing vMoL Rakkhat HM on pad 3 in Feb 2017 it seems more like you are just trying to start an argument for the sake of having one. As such I am done with this petty line conversation.
Or maybe you have a different definiton of what's significant power creep. You seem to define it as older content got easier as you progressed. I define it as when the level of power in the game starts creating undesirable effects that negatively effect the game. I do not believe that to be the case.
You posted condescendingly to me, accusing my opinion of being based on nothing and vague. So I responded with a detailed and thoughtful post about exactly why I disagreed with what you stated. And since you can no longer claim I'm not basing my opinion on something real, you're claiming I'm just looking for a fight. Okay. Sure. Whatever. I won't expect a response. I just wanted to clarify my stance. Bye.
Edited by spartaxoxo on November 1, 2019 10:12AM3 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So don’t compare apples to orangutans.
Compare apples to apples.
Craftable target dummies were introduced with Homestead. So smack a 3 or 6 mil and compare DPS numbers with those from two years ago.
You’ll find that the DPS numbers are in fact significantly higher than they were - just not quite as high as comparing a 3mil kill with the trials atro kill.
When vMOL was introduced, 35k was considered godly DPS. Now groups “require” 50k on a 3mil.
The content itself has not changed.
And it was mostly measured on vMoL/first boss in a coordinated raidgroup with all buffs etc...atleast that's where i had to post parse when i entered a progression-guild back then...
So it's more or less comparable to the iron attro nowadays...Noobplar0 -
EmEm_Oh✭✭✭✭✭Hello everyone,
Lately I have been seeing people making claims about how DPS is so much greater now then a year or two ago. I have an issue with this statement as I am not sure how true it is.
A little backstory, I started playing DPS at the beginning of this year. My first parse on a 300k was 6k (ouch I know lol) over the course of the last 10 months I have improved greatly, maxing out at 51.5k on a 3 mil, or 48k on a 6 mil (solo parse no healer/tank sustain food)
I remember back before this year how most people considered 35-40k to be high DPS, so seeing 50-60k bring possible definitely shows that it had gone up. But I see a lot of people who are using people that hit 90-100k and are claiming that this is the true power creep. I feel this is misleading for two reasons.
1.) The iron atro did not exist during the time frame where 35-40k was considered high. Had it existed I suspect most people would have DPS in the 70-80k realm.
2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.
Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.
TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.
Yep. Using static objects for realistic bragging rights always seemed odd to me.
How about we get a "dummy" that figgts back.0 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This is the reason why they are constantly nerfing things...Hello everyone,
Lately I have been seeing people making claims about how DPS is so much greater now then a year or two ago. I have an issue with this statement as I am not sure how true it is.
A little backstory, I started playing DPS at the beginning of this year. My first parse on a 300k was 6k (ouch I know lol) over the course of the last 10 months I have improved greatly, maxing out at 51.5k on a 3 mil, or 48k on a 6 mil (solo parse no healer/tank sustain food)
I remember back before this year how most people considered 35-40k to be high DPS, so seeing 50-60k bring possible definitely shows that it had gone up. But I see a lot of people who are using people that hit 90-100k and are claiming that this is the true power creep. I feel this is misleading for two reasons.
1.) The iron atro did not exist during the time frame where 35-40k was considered high. Had it existed I suspect most people would have DPS in the 70-80k realm.
2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.
Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.
TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.
How so? I'm claiming the power creep is not as severe as others are saying.
Did you not read the post? 40k used to be the "cutting edge of dps", now people are doing 100k. That's why Zos is nerfing stuff.
Big sources of dps boosts in recent years
1) LA damage buffs
2) Jewelry crafting
3) Off-balance changes
4) Olorime/Relequen/Lokk/False God/Yolna
5) Major Vulnerability
6) More powerful foods
If you don’t shell out cash you benefit fully only from the LA changes and Off-balance changes,
Having to pay for more power to take on new content that comes with the bonuses you paid for isn’t a new thing. The nerfing of older gear (NMG and Sunder), base game skills, and base game foods (Dubious, Witch Mother), is a not so subtle push to make sure “competitive player” means “moneymaker”
Well, yeah, they're selling expansions for a game that doesn't use zone-to-zone progression. They can't just increase the level cap by 5 levels to make sure people buy the expansion. There has to be some other reason to spend money on an expansion beyond just storyline.
You're kind of stating the obvious here.0 -
beadabow✭✭✭
I used to believe the Zaan/Siroria combo was just a parse set, but taking it out into the open world and working my way up through different grades of difficulty, I have effectively managed to use Siroria's in most pve settings, including trials. I even tried using it in pvp settings, knowing that it would probably not be very optimal. Only place it was mildly effective in pvp was being up on a wall in a defensive fight where the user could stand still or use defensive obstacles to break LOS. Anyways, Siroria's is still a very nice set to be able to lay down a ton of damage in a short period of time with a "Stand your Ground" build and playstyle. The set is particularly useful for Mag Necromancers and Breton dps builds in general.0 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭My guild tonight were talking about how normal expected DPS is 80k on iron atro now... and here I am with the same old 25-29k on 6 million guy. My epeen is retreated like a frightened turtle hahaha1 -
pod88kk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think the main reason why people say it is because we had less champion points 2 years ago
The difference between CP501 (the first cap) and today's value from it, is HIGHLY overstated. Anyone claiming that's the main source of added power over the years has no idea what they're talking about to be perfectly blunt with you
I'm just saying that it's made it a lot easier/more accessible for players who were weaker/less skilled at 501CP to hit higher numbers now0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »SeaWoodStage wrote: »I know I'm going to sound ignorant here, but I'd like to know what "parse" means in the context of this discussion? I only know the word as meaning something like "taking in a flow of info and understanding it", so it means nothing to me in gaming terms yet. I've only been playing this game since July, and it's my first MMO. Can someone enlighten me please?
Honestly I don't know what the word means. I just know I was taught the word in reference to killing a target dummy.
When you kill a dummy start to finish that's a parse.
To analyze a string of data.
Or a data set. In the strictest sense, when you bring up Combat Metrics after burning a dummy, that screen is your "parse," but the community uses it to refer to the actual DPS test.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The dps dummies are misleading and people who use them as a bargining tool whether to allow ppl into trials are chumps
I do find myself laughing when the so called big hitter dpsers 80+ plusers spend most of their time dead in a trial
no one runs 12k Heath in a trial. No one does perfect rotation after rotation ad infinitum, and there are very few trials where you can stand still for longer than 30 seconds any way - with the odd exceptions.
Yeah, a term people should really be familiar with: Parse Cheese.
There are a lot of people who treat the dummies like a score attack mode. If that's your thing, and you genuinely enjoy that, cool.
The problem comes in when you have people who don't parse to practice their rotation, and start making choices based around the dummy. Unfortunately a lot of players"study for the test," and don't learn to play the content.0 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SeaWoodStage wrote: »I know I'm going to sound ignorant here, but I'd like to know what "parse" means in the context of this discussion? I only know the word as meaning something like "taking in a flow of info and understanding it", so it means nothing to me in gaming terms yet. I've only been playing this game since July, and it's my first MMO. Can someone enlighten me please?
Taking in a flow of combat metrics, analyzing how much damage each ability or attack contributed to your damage, then testing a different setup, doing the same, then comparing all of the results to determine which setup gives the best results for different situations.
You are "parsing" your DPS, because you are analyzing all of the data you record when doing so.0 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This is the reason why they are constantly nerfing things...Hello everyone,
Lately I have been seeing people making claims about how DPS is so much greater now then a year or two ago. I have an issue with this statement as I am not sure how true it is.
A little backstory, I started playing DPS at the beginning of this year. My first parse on a 300k was 6k (ouch I know lol) over the course of the last 10 months I have improved greatly, maxing out at 51.5k on a 3 mil, or 48k on a 6 mil (solo parse no healer/tank sustain food)
I remember back before this year how most people considered 35-40k to be high DPS, so seeing 50-60k bring possible definitely shows that it had gone up. But I see a lot of people who are using people that hit 90-100k and are claiming that this is the true power creep. I feel this is misleading for two reasons.
1.) The iron atro did not exist during the time frame where 35-40k was considered high. Had it existed I suspect most people would have DPS in the 70-80k realm.
2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.
Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.
TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.
How so? I'm claiming the power creep is not as severe as others are saying.
Did you not read the post? 40k used to be the "cutting edge of dps", now people are doing 100k. That's why Zos is nerfing stuff.
Big sources of dps boosts in recent years
1) LA damage buffs
2) Jewelry crafting
3) Off-balance changes
4) Olorime/Relequen/Lokk/False God/Yolna
5) Major Vulnerability
6) More powerful foods
If you don’t shell out cash you benefit fully only from the LA changes and Off-balance changes,
Having to pay for more power to take on new content that comes with the bonuses you paid for isn’t a new thing. The nerfing of older gear (NMG and Sunder), base game skills, and base game foods (Dubious, Witch Mother), is a not so subtle push to make sure “competitive player” means “moneymaker”
Well, yeah, they're selling expansions for a game that doesn't use zone-to-zone progression. They can't just increase the level cap by 5 levels to make sure people buy the expansion. There has to be some other reason to spend money on an expansion beyond just storyline.
You're kind of stating the obvious here.
As I said, better skills being made available for new content isn’t new. It falls within acceptable practice of the industry to some degree.
But what isn’t standard is the gutting of base game features in order to make that shiny new gear a must-have or else you become weaker.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is the reason why they are constantly nerfing things...Hello everyone,
Lately I have been seeing people making claims about how DPS is so much greater now then a year or two ago. I have an issue with this statement as I am not sure how true it is.
A little backstory, I started playing DPS at the beginning of this year. My first parse on a 300k was 6k (ouch I know lol) over the course of the last 10 months I have improved greatly, maxing out at 51.5k on a 3 mil, or 48k on a 6 mil (solo parse no healer/tank sustain food)
I remember back before this year how most people considered 35-40k to be high DPS, so seeing 50-60k bring possible definitely shows that it had gone up. But I see a lot of people who are using people that hit 90-100k and are claiming that this is the true power creep. I feel this is misleading for two reasons.
1.) The iron atro did not exist during the time frame where 35-40k was considered high. Had it existed I suspect most people would have DPS in the 70-80k realm.
2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.
Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.
TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.
How so? I'm claiming the power creep is not as severe as others are saying.
Did you not read the post? 40k used to be the "cutting edge of dps", now people are doing 100k. That's why Zos is nerfing stuff.
Big sources of dps boosts in recent years
1) LA damage buffs
2) Jewelry crafting
3) Off-balance changes
4) Olorime/Relequen/Lokk/False God/Yolna
5) Major Vulnerability
6) More powerful foods
If you don’t shell out cash you benefit fully only from the LA changes and Off-balance changes,
Having to pay for more power to take on new content that comes with the bonuses you paid for isn’t a new thing. The nerfing of older gear (NMG and Sunder), base game skills, and base game foods (Dubious, Witch Mother), is a not so subtle push to make sure “competitive player” means “moneymaker”
Well, yeah, they're selling expansions for a game that doesn't use zone-to-zone progression. They can't just increase the level cap by 5 levels to make sure people buy the expansion. There has to be some other reason to spend money on an expansion beyond just storyline.
You're kind of stating the obvious here.
As I said, better skills being made available for new content isn’t new. It falls within acceptable practice of the industry to some degree.
But what isn’t standard is the gutting of base game features in order to make that shiny new gear a must-have or else you become weaker.
And ESO hasn't done that since Imperial City.
What's notable, though, is that, "must have gear," with each release is pretty common in MMOs. Though, that's usually more of a function of controlled power creep. WoW gleefully increases it's level cap by another 10 points with each expansion, and you need to cough up the cash, and grind new gear, or get locked out of progression (for example.)
Even having old gear that can overperform moving forward is a bit unusual in MMOs. You see stuff like this with Destiny 2, where Bungie recently nerfed a bunch of Exotics and the Pinnacle weapons from previous seasons. (Stuff like 21% Delirium, and Luna just took a nerf bat to the knees.) But, gear in Destiny 2 can be scaled up the new light, so if you want to move that stuff to 950 when you get there, you can.
ESO's gear been at 160 since Imperial City dropped. Compare that to a game where your old gear is completely obsolete when the new expansion drops, and, yeah, you're not going to see people caring, as much, about old gear being nerfed, and you'll even see devs simply ignore older gear that outperforms, because no one will be using that stuff at endgame.
ESO is a unique case, because old content doesn't cycle out. Consider that one of the staple sets, Hunding's Rage, was available at launch. That gear has remained relevant for five years. (Four, if we're saying that only 160 Hunding's is relevant.)
There aren't a lot of MMOs that are off of maintenance mode, where gear stays relevant the way it does in ESO. Maybe Guild Wars 2?3
https://youtu.be/u8m0IN2-nPk