Misconceptions regarding DPS today vs DPS 1-2 years ago.

Casul · October 2019

Hello everyone,

Lately I have been seeing people making claims about how DPS is so much greater now then a year or two ago. I have an issue with this statement as I am not sure how true it is.

A little backstory, I started playing DPS at the beginning of this year. My first parse on a 300k was 6k (ouch I know lol) over the course of the last 10 months I have improved greatly, maxing out at 51.5k on a 3 mil, or 48k on a 6 mil (solo parse no healer/tank sustain food)

I remember back before this year how most people considered 35-40k to be high DPS, so seeing 50-60k bring possible definitely shows that it had gone up. But I see a lot of people who are using people that hit 90-100k and are claiming that this is the true power creep. I feel this is misleading for two reasons.

1.) The iron atro did not exist during the time frame where 35-40k was considered high. Had it existed I suspect most people would have DPS in the 70-80k realm.

2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.

Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.

TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.

ValueDrift · October 2019

You are right, I often see people compare Iron Atronarch numbers of today to 6 mil dummy numbers of the past when the two have little in common and shouldn't be compared. Also these parse videos tend to run 11K health which you might not want to do against targets that fight back.

srfrogg23 · October 2019

This is the reason why they are constantly nerfing things...

BuildMan wrote: »

Hello everyone,

Lately I have been seeing people making claims about how DPS is so much greater now then a year or two ago. I have an issue with this statement as I am not sure how true it is.

A little backstory, I started playing DPS at the beginning of this year. My first parse on a 300k was 6k (ouch I know lol) over the course of the last 10 months I have improved greatly, maxing out at 51.5k on a 3 mil, or 48k on a 6 mil (solo parse no healer/tank sustain food)

I remember back before this year how most people considered 35-40k to be high DPS, so seeing 50-60k bring possible definitely shows that it had gone up. But I see a lot of people who are using people that hit 90-100k and are claiming that this is the true power creep. I feel this is misleading for two reasons.

1.) The iron atro did not exist during the time frame where 35-40k was considered high. Had it existed I suspect most people would have DPS in the 70-80k realm.

2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.

Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.

TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.

Casul · October 2019

ValueDrift wrote: »

You are right, I often see people compare Iron Atronarch numbers of today to 6 mil dummy numbers of the past when the two have little in common and shouldn't be compared. Also these parse videos tend to run 11K health which you might not want to do against targets that fight back.

Yeah I do all my parses with 12k HP, but I also don't use a healer so in a actual trial I can assume that orbs can make up for the Regen I lost.

Casul · October 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

This is the reason why they are constantly nerfing things...

BuildMan wrote: »

Hello everyone,

Lately I have been seeing people making claims about how DPS is so much greater now then a year or two ago. I have an issue with this statement as I am not sure how true it is.

A little backstory, I started playing DPS at the beginning of this year. My first parse on a 300k was 6k (ouch I know lol) over the course of the last 10 months I have improved greatly, maxing out at 51.5k on a 3 mil, or 48k on a 6 mil (solo parse no healer/tank sustain food)

I remember back before this year how most people considered 35-40k to be high DPS, so seeing 50-60k bring possible definitely shows that it had gone up. But I see a lot of people who are using people that hit 90-100k and are claiming that this is the true power creep. I feel this is misleading for two reasons.

1.) The iron atro did not exist during the time frame where 35-40k was considered high. Had it existed I suspect most people would have DPS in the 70-80k realm.

2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.

Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.

TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.

How so? I'm claiming the power creep is not as severe as others are saying.

sidious00 · October 2019

I was saying this on reddit. Also all of the parses (at least for mag) are not even using the gear/skills you will actually use.

Casul · October 2019

sidious00 wrote: »

I was saying this on reddit. Also all of the parses (at least for mag) are not even using the gear/skills you will actually use.

Yes most mag parses run Zaan Siroria MS iirc. But Siroria is hard to work with.

SidraWillowsky · October 2019

In my opinion, the Iron Atro dummy is absurd and has been a detriment to the ESO community as a whole. The VAST majority of players will NEVER play in groups organized enough to see the numbers they pull on the iron atro dummy. People claim that it’s a way to standardize parses, but come ON. I’m at around 72k on the atro dummy but have never, ever come even close to that on a single target in trials. If I’m lucky I’ll pull about 50k on a rather static boss fight, which is what I can pull on a 6 mil dummy.

Unless someone is looking to be the l33test of the l33t, their 21 mil parse will likely to wildly unrealistic.

LiquidPony · October 2019

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

In my opinion, the Iron Atro dummy is absurd and has been a detriment to the ESO community as a whole. The VAST majority of players will NEVER play in groups organized enough to see the numbers they pull on the iron atro dummy. People claim that it’s a way to standardize parses, but come ON. I’m at around 72k on the atro dummy but have never, ever come even close to that on a single target in trials. If I’m lucky I’ll pull about 50k on a rather static boss fight, which is what I can pull on a 6 mil dummy.

Unless someone is looking to be the l33test of the l33t, their 21 mil parse will likely to wildly unrealistic.

Standardization is the point, though. You can compare DPS across classes and specs. You can compare rotations and builds without having to worry about whether some effect or buff/debuff is skewing your numbers. You have a synergy to proc sets like Lokkestiiz and Moondancer. It allows you to parse completely solo without relying on a partner to provide fracture or breach or Combat Prayer. It eliminates the unrealistic need to fit Ele Drain into a rotation.

It's especially nice for console raiders who can't ever see their actual DPS in real fights.

Anyway, not every tool is for everyone.

SeaWoodStage · October 2019

I know I'm going to sound ignorant here, but I'd like to know what "parse" means in the context of this discussion? I only know the word as meaning something like "taking in a flow of info and understanding it", so it means nothing to me in gaming terms yet. I've only been playing this game since July, and it's my first MMO. Can someone enlighten me please?

Casul · October 2019

SeaWoodStage wrote: »

I know I'm going to sound ignorant here, but I'd like to know what "parse" means in the context of this discussion? I only know the word as meaning something like "taking in a flow of info and understanding it", so it means nothing to me in gaming terms yet. I've only been playing this game since July, and it's my first MMO. Can someone enlighten me please?

Honestly I don't know what the word means. I just know I was taught the word in reference to killing a target dummy.

When you kill a dummy start to finish that's a parse.

SeaWoodStage · October 2019

BuildMan wrote: »

Honestly I don't know what the word means. I just know I was taught the word in reference to killing a target dummy.

When you kill a dummy start to finish that's a parse.

I just looked up the dictionary definition on a couple of sites, and they seem to agree that "parsing" a sentence is breaking it up into it's component parts and analysing them. So maybe that could apply to a target dummy? Sort of? It also occurred to me that it's only one letter away from parsecs, but that's probably a coincidence.

Agenericname · October 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

In my opinion, the Iron Atro dummy is absurd and has been a detriment to the ESO community as a whole. The VAST majority of players will NEVER play in groups organized enough to see the numbers they pull on the iron atro dummy. People claim that it’s a way to standardize parses, but come ON. I’m at around 72k on the atro dummy but have never, ever come even close to that on a single target in trials. If I’m lucky I’ll pull about 50k on a rather static boss fight, which is what I can pull on a 6 mil dummy.

Unless someone is looking to be the l33test of the l33t, their 21 mil parse will likely to wildly unrealistic.

Standardization is the point, though. You can compare DPS across classes and specs. You can compare rotations and builds without having to worry about whether some effect or buff/debuff is skewing your numbers. You have a synergy to proc sets like Lokkestiiz and Moondancer. It allows you to parse completely solo without relying on a partner to provide fracture or breach or Combat Prayer. It eliminates the unrealistic need to fit Ele Drain into a rotation.

It's especially nice for console raiders who can't ever see their actual DPS in real fights.

Anyway, not every tool is for everyone.

It's good for comparing apples to apples. What's happening in some cases is it is being used to quantify the power creep by comparing parses from a year ago against a 6m target. That's apples to oranges and in that sense it's harmful, assuming anyone with any real ability to influence the games direction takes it seriously.

Agenericname · October 2019

BuildMan wrote: »

SeaWoodStage wrote: »

I know I'm going to sound ignorant here, but I'd like to know what "parse" means in the context of this discussion? I only know the word as meaning something like "taking in a flow of info and understanding it", so it means nothing to me in gaming terms yet. I've only been playing this game since July, and it's my first MMO. Can someone enlighten me please?

Honestly I don't know what the word means. I just know I was taught the word in reference to killing a target dummy.

When you kill a dummy start to finish that's a parse.

To analyze a string of data.

NordSwordnBoard · October 2019

On console, we get a DPS total in text chat at conclusion.

I think PC needs an add-on that actually "parses" or separates the dps numbers down to each skill/attack category.

Lumsdenml · October 2019

Didn't eso recently add a / command to record party dps that you could then upload to an external site for analysis?

raegun · October 2019

pc has an addon called combat metrics that analizes your buffs, debuffs, resource consumption, total and percentage of damage done by each move. you kill a target dummy and open the pane take a look at your numbers (not just your dps) and then kill the dummy again. compare the two results and you can learn a lot of things about your dps. this is called a parse.

LiquidPony · October 2019

Agenericname wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

In my opinion, the Iron Atro dummy is absurd and has been a detriment to the ESO community as a whole. The VAST majority of players will NEVER play in groups organized enough to see the numbers they pull on the iron atro dummy. People claim that it’s a way to standardize parses, but come ON. I’m at around 72k on the atro dummy but have never, ever come even close to that on a single target in trials. If I’m lucky I’ll pull about 50k on a rather static boss fight, which is what I can pull on a 6 mil dummy.

Unless someone is looking to be the l33test of the l33t, their 21 mil parse will likely to wildly unrealistic.

Standardization is the point, though. You can compare DPS across classes and specs. You can compare rotations and builds without having to worry about whether some effect or buff/debuff is skewing your numbers. You have a synergy to proc sets like Lokkestiiz and Moondancer. It allows you to parse completely solo without relying on a partner to provide fracture or breach or Combat Prayer. It eliminates the unrealistic need to fit Ele Drain into a rotation.

It's especially nice for console raiders who can't ever see their actual DPS in real fights.

Anyway, not every tool is for everyone.

It's good for comparing apples to apples. What's happening in some cases is it is being used to quantify the power creep by comparing parses from a year ago against a 6m target. That's apples to oranges and in that sense it's harmful, assuming anyone with any real ability to influence the games direction takes it seriously.

Well, I would hope that anyone with two brain cells to rub together would see that that's ridiculous. Even on console I remember people hitting 70-80k in "raid parses" back in the CWC meta, prior to Lokke and Relequen. But of course back then we had Mechanical Acuity/Sunderflame/NMG.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · October 2019

I prefer the old school method of DPS testing.

- Did I kill you?

If yes, I have good DPS. If not ... lag.

SeaWoodStage · October 2019

raegun wrote: »

pc has an addon called combat metrics that analizes your buffs, debuffs, resource consumption, total and percentage of damage done by each move. you kill a target dummy and open the pane take a look at your numbers (not just your dps) and then kill the dummy again. compare the two results and you can learn a lot of things about your dps. this is called a parse.

This makes a lot of sense, because it's talking about analysing separate components. I play on console so it won't apply to me, but I can see the sense in a target dummy run being called a parse now. Thank you. And now I'll know what people are talking about

YandereGirlfriend · October 2019

Agenericname wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

SeaWoodStage wrote: »

I know I'm going to sound ignorant here, but I'd like to know what "parse" means in the context of this discussion? I only know the word as meaning something like "taking in a flow of info and understanding it", so it means nothing to me in gaming terms yet. I've only been playing this game since July, and it's my first MMO. Can someone enlighten me please?

Honestly I don't know what the word means. I just know I was taught the word in reference to killing a target dummy.

When you kill a dummy start to finish that's a parse.

To analyze a string of data.

This is the answer.

It's also NOT what is being done in a supposed "parse" on a dummy though. That's much more of a summary, as people are only interested in the stats tallied at the end, whereas in a parse you're more concerned with stepping through the data and operating on it in its current context.

I legit think people just use "parse" because it sounds technical/cool and they want to make their damage summaries sound more substantial/meaningful than they actually are.

SeaWoodStage · October 2019

Thanks everyone, this is so much clearer now

Nestor · October 2019

SeaWoodStage wrote: »

I know I'm going to sound ignorant here, but I'd like to know what "parse" means in the context of this discussion? I only know the word as meaning something like "taking in a flow of info and understanding it", so it means nothing to me in gaming terms yet. I've only been playing this game since July, and it's my first MMO. Can someone enlighten me please?

@SeaWoodStage

It is taking a flow if information and breaking it down to understand it. I believe the addon is Combat Metrics, but it gives you a detailed summation of a Dummy Fight show how many times you used one skill or another, how much damage that skill did as a percentage, the DPS of each skill, DPS, DPS as a whole and those kinds of things. This is what is referred to as a Parse.

Just seeing your DPS at the end of dummy session is not parse.

morrowjen · October 2019

I think test dummies are great for a lot of things: testing builds, working out rotations, and improving DPS but I also think the community relies on them too much to set standards that just don't happen outside of a testing environment and aren't always relevant even under the best of circumstances. Dummies were the first step in figuring out a rotation and improving DPS but running cmx and seeing how you perform in dungeons, trials, and world bosses is a far better judge, imo of what works in practice. Of course, I'm also one of those people who gets incredibly bored when working with a test dummy.

Jaimeh · October 2019

BuildMan wrote: »

2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.

Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.

TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.

They're not comparing the dps between the dummies, because as you said, it's not a valid comparison as parameters are different, but dps from actual live fights...Take parses on Valariel, or Zhaj'hassa from the last couple of years, they are indeed lower than what they can be achieved now. Also, even though it's by no means the be-all and end-all of parsing etiquette, there is a widely accepted way nowdays with the atro dummy and parse food, and it makes it easy to compare damage between different specs because it limits variables.

karekiz · October 2019

The biggest issue I have with Iron Atro is 100% Major Force uptime.

OG_Kaveman · October 2019

karekiz wrote: »

The biggest issue I have with Iron Atro is 100% Major Force uptime.

Good raids have really high uptime on major force, so it is not really that far off the mark, but yeah, it really ought to be like 9.5 seconds with a 20 second cool down. Like one person using horn every 30 seconds.

azjuwelz · October 2019

As long as we don't have Combat Metrics on console, we're pretty much in the dark in regards to parses, or dps.

Heck, on other MMOs I've seen the "damage per second" immediately calculated by the system the instant you change gear, even if that's only a theoretical number. I find it mind boggling that ESO has dps checks in their trials and vet dungeons yet supplies maybe 0.001% of the information a player needs to improve.

And OP, I think I agree with you, and I really hope the developers are NOT using the new trial dummy as their standard for when to nerf dps. As you said, it's rare to see those kind of perfect conditions in any actual game contact where there's an enemy trying to kill you.

Hanokihs · October 2019

Re: the notion that people rely too much on dummies and their results...

...only if they take it literally. Nobody with sense expects a player to actually pull 80-100k in a real trial fight. At least, I feel safe in saying it doesn't happen. However. If the most practiced, reliable players can hit that mark while standing still and under no pressure, while people who aren't quite as skilled max out at about 50k in the same conditions (and poor players average at 20-30k), it still gives an idea of their relative skill compared to the people you already know can get the job done.

I feel like this is how most people use the dummies. For practice and basic benchmarking.

MartiniDaniels · October 2019

Sources of power creep in recent 2 years:
- siroria/relequen
- necro's major vulnerability
- olorime/yolnakrin/zen
- bloodthirsty jewelry
- dots buff
- CP

So as we can see reasons contain items with clear drawbacks (great at dummy, not so good at mobile fights with ton of movement and target switching) and support from other classes. This means that power creep happened for high-end players and for progression level players, because raids have pre-determined positioning and great supports. For players who run dungeons in hunding's rage+vo with selfish tanks and "healer must only heal", there were no power creep.

MJallday · October 2019

The dps dummies are misleading and people who use them as a bargining tool whether to allow ppl into trials are chumps

I do find myself laughing when the so called big hitter dpsers 80+ plusers spend most of their time dead in a trial

no one runs 12k Heath in a trial. No one does perfect rotation after rotation ad infinitum, and there are very few trials where you can stand still for longer than 30 seconds any way - with the odd exceptions