Misconceptions regarding DPS today vs DPS 1-2 years ago.
-
Emmagoldman✭✭✭✭✭
✭^ this. The ability to activate major slayer (lokk) is massive along with other buffs to dmg
How far back? You had twice born star and julianos or infalliable aether as op.
Weapons were also counted as one slot and not two. So infalliable was back barred
They also did a staff overall.
1 -
IndianaJames7✭✭✭✭✭Hello everyone,
Lately I have been seeing people making claims about how DPS is so much greater now then a year or two ago. I have an issue with this statement as I am not sure how true it is.
A little backstory, I started playing DPS at the beginning of this year. My first parse on a 300k was 6k (ouch I know lol) over the course of the last 10 months I have improved greatly, maxing out at 51.5k on a 3 mil, or 48k on a 6 mil (solo parse no healer/tank sustain food)
I remember back before this year how most people considered 35-40k to be high DPS, so seeing 50-60k bring possible definitely shows that it had gone up. But I see a lot of people who are using people that hit 90-100k and are claiming that this is the true power creep. I feel this is misleading for two reasons.
1.) The iron atro did not exist during the time frame where 35-40k was considered high. Had it existed I suspect most people would have DPS in the 70-80k realm.
2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.
Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.
TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.
Of course iron Atro now vs 6 mill then is not a reasonable comparison... fairest way to compare is self buffed parse on a 6mill now vs then... Is anyone actually making this comparison?2 -
DuckInRealLife✭✭✭So I've been playing this game since April.
I haven't done any trial content yet (but I'm just planning to make a Healer Templar to do it cause its not as bad)
After creeping around the forums a lot there's some people who are like "Oh some people think 20k DPS is a lot, then you look up build guides and what not and its like "watch me hit just under 100k DPS, I'm a beast.".
I'm from Australia, my ping will be 250ms on a good day, I know that isn't an excuse some Aussies do this really well, but this game I've noticed a little with desync isn't that forgiving sometimes.
But I've just started testing on the skeleton dummies for DPS as that is probably the reality of the content I'd be faced to (cause dungeons are weird).
The conception on what is good and what is terrible swaps again when you look at things like ESO logs, looking at Damage done to bosses on a per second basis between trials and dungeons (both on normal/vet). There is like, max in dungeons is like 13k DPS and in trials its like 50-70k DPS.
So can somebody please make a clear definition on what is good for Dungeons and what is good for Bosses?
As it changes the viability of things dramatically.1 -
Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'd like to know what people are getting in dps in actual world content, say when fighting a Dragon.
Typically, I get around 4-5k (and much of that comes from my Thunderbug armour). I should say though, I do usually build for survivability more than damage, so I can generally tank my way through most things I meet. I wonder if someone getting 50k on a dummy would get that in actual play, or if they could survive getting hit once or twice.Exploring Tamriel since 1994.2 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Re: the notion that people rely too much on dummies and their results...
...only if they take it literally. Nobody with sense expects a player to actually pull 80-100k in a real trial fight. At least, I feel safe in saying it doesn't happen. However. If the most practiced, reliable players can hit that mark while standing still and under no pressure, while people who aren't quite as skilled max out at about 50k in the same conditions (and poor players average at 20-30k), it still gives an idea of their relative skill compared to the people you already know can get the job done.
I feel like this is how most people use the dummies. For practice and basic benchmarking.
People absolutely pull 80-100k, or more, in real raid fights.2 -
Drako_Ei✭✭✭✭✭SidraWillowsky wrote: »In my opinion, the Iron Atro dummy is absurd and has been a detriment to the ESO community as a whole. The VAST majority of players will NEVER play in groups organized enough to see the numbers they pull on the iron atro dummy. People claim that it’s a way to standardize parses, but come ON. I’m at around 72k on the atro dummy but have never, ever come even close to that on a single target in trials. If I’m lucky I’ll pull about 50k on a rather static boss fight, which is what I can pull on a 6 mil dummy.
Unless someone is looking to be the l33test of the l33t, their 21 mil parse will likely to wildly unrealistic.
A good group can buff you beyond the iron atro dummy. I have seen parses of ST 120k on vHRCEdited by Drako_Ei on October 30, 2019 10:39PM2 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »I'd like to know what people are getting in dps in actual world content, say when fighting a Dragon.
Typically, I get around 4-5k (and much of that comes from my Thunderbug armour). I should say though, I do usually build for survivability more than damage, so I can generally tank my way through most things I meet. I wonder if someone getting 50k on a dummy would get that in actual play, or if they could survive getting hit once or twice.
The answers to your questions are, yes and yes.
Also no one cares about DPS in world content. In case you are interested in some DPS when figthing a dragon, you can take a look at veteran Sunspire section on EsoLogs.3 -
Ramber✭✭✭✭Hello everyone,
Lately I have been seeing people making claims about how DPS is so much greater now then a year or two ago. I have an issue with this statement as I am not sure how true it is.
A little backstory, I started playing DPS at the beginning of this year. My first parse on a 300k was 6k (ouch I know lol) over the course of the last 10 months I have improved greatly, maxing out at 51.5k on a 3 mil, or 48k on a 6 mil (solo parse no healer/tank sustain food)
I remember back before this year how most people considered 35-40k to be high DPS, so seeing 50-60k bring possible definitely shows that it had gone up. But I see a lot of people who are using people that hit 90-100k and are claiming that this is the true power creep. I feel this is misleading for two reasons.
1.) The iron atro did not exist during the time frame where 35-40k was considered high. Had it existed I suspect most people would have DPS in the 70-80k realm.
2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.
Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.
TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.
that trials atro is ruining DPS, I insist my guild first learns on 3 and 6 mill fully resisted dummies before they ever try and dps the atro so they learn how and why dps works.
4 -
Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »I'd like to know what people are getting in dps in actual world content, say when fighting a Dragon.
Typically, I get around 4-5k (and much of that comes from my Thunderbug armour). I should say though, I do usually build for survivability more than damage, so I can generally tank my way through most things I meet. I wonder if someone getting 50k on a dummy would get that in actual play, or if they could survive getting hit once or twice.
The answers to your questions are, yes and yes.
Also no one cares about DPS in world content. In case you are interested in some DPS when figthing a dragon, you can take a look at veteran Sunspire section on EsoLogs.
Thing is, people SHOULD care about dps in world content. It's been said before, if the game requires players to have in excess of 50k dps to be able to do higher end content, it means that those players are going to find world content (ie. most of the game) trivial. That's not good for them, because it limits them only to the top end content, and because when they DO venture into the world, they obliterate everything in sight before people trying to DO that content can do anything.
For example, today I was in the Bonesnap Ruins public dungeon. There was someone in there running around gathering up all the enemies he could find and then instantly destroying all of them. This meant that everyone else in the dungeon had nothing to DO... and that's not good for the game as a whole.
As I say, my dps is only around 4-5k, and I can do all the world content (even most World Bosses). If I go into a Veteran Dungeon (even a NORMAL dungeon), I'm not going to be able to do much of ANYTHING. A group of casual players like me would never be able to do Dungeons or Trials... and I don't think it should BE that way. At least, not at normal levels.
That I can do most of the world content reliably, but still with SOME challenge suggests that my damage is adequate at the lower end. That I can't do higher end content AT ALL suggests that the requirements at the top end are too high for more casual players.Exploring Tamriel since 1994.1 -
Shantu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭While I've spent untold hours over the last 3 years on a parsing dummy and generally enjoy combat in ESO, I've come to regard concept of DPS as utter bull crap. I mean what other game requires you to waste your time in an effort to perfect a precisely timed rotation of buttons/keys against damn dummy so you don't stink at harder content and have to listen to idiots who tell you to "git gud"? I've been playing Destiny 2 a lot lately and have to say it's refreshing just to have a few guns and skills you use depending on the kind of enemy you're fighting. No light attack weaving. No animation canceling. No comparing your DPS numbers to anyone else. No concern that your DPS is good enough. No sustain issues. Just load your weapon, aim, and fire! If you kill and enemy, you win. Period.
In all it's elegant complexity, much of ESO combat ends up shooting itself in the foot. Now we have sweeping nerfs and changes to combat that affect everyone because relatively few players can hit 100K on a cheesed out dummy and post their self-impressed nonsense to YouTube. Something about this just feels totally misguided. Combat should be fun and exhilarating...not an annoying part time job.10 -
DuckInRealLife✭✭✭In all it's elegant complexity, much of ESO combat ends up shooting itself in the foot. Now we have sweeping nerfs and changes to combat that affect everyone because relatively few players can hit 100K on a cheesed out dummy and post their self-impressed nonsense to YouTube. Something about this just feels totally misguided. Combat should be fun and exhilarating...not an annoying part time job.
Sadly I feel this is just the reality of dungeon based MMOs.
Coming from TERA where they literally had to make DPS Meters and DPS shaming against ToS cause people were getting kicked for being the lowest DPS and not meeting "standards" of whoever had the meter. It messed up me, who need physical experience to learn after reading.
Not to mention the gutting feeling of feeling like under performing or not being good enough because I don't have under 100 ping and every millisecond is valuable and can't react like Vivec having a moon thrown at his city.
This wont change unless mentality of people change, which wont happen. If people feeling the casual player will never do trials because X,Y, and Z then there's an issue with the floor and the ceiling and all this animation cancelling, weaving nonsense. Mainly because these people probably aren't as worried about it.
This has also just snowballed into this no hybrid, min-maxing culture.
3 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »I'd like to know what people are getting in dps in actual world content, say when fighting a Dragon.
Typically, I get around 4-5k (and much of that comes from my Thunderbug armour). I should say though, I do usually build for survivability more than damage, so I can generally tank my way through most things I meet. I wonder if someone getting 50k on a dummy would get that in actual play, or if they could survive getting hit once or twice.
The answers to your questions are, yes and yes.
Also no one cares about DPS in world content. In case you are interested in some DPS when figthing a dragon, you can take a look at veteran Sunspire section on EsoLogs.
Thing is, people SHOULD care about dps in world content. It's been said before, if the game requires players to have in excess of 50k dps to be able to do higher end content, it means that those players are going to find world content (ie. most of the game) trivial. That's not good for them, because it limits them only to the top end content, and because when they DO venture into the world, they obliterate everything in sight before people trying to DO that content can do anything.
For example, today I was in the Bonesnap Ruins public dungeon. There was someone in there running around gathering up all the enemies he could find and then instantly destroying all of them. This meant that everyone else in the dungeon had nothing to DO... and that's not good for the game as a whole.
As I say, my dps is only around 4-5k, and I can do all the world content (even most World Bosses). If I go into a Veteran Dungeon (even a NORMAL dungeon), I'm not going to be able to do much of ANYTHING. A group of casual players like me would never be able to do Dungeons or Trials... and I don't think it should BE that way. At least, not at normal levels.
That I can do most of the world content reliably, but still with SOME challenge suggests that my damage is adequate at the lower end. That I can't do higher end content AT ALL suggests that the requirements at the top end are too high for more casual players.
Cool, you do you.
But "play how you want" goes both ways. There is a lot of enjoyment to be had in being the best. And it's not even about being better than someone. Just being the best you can be. Intentionally gimping yourself is not fun.1 -
Kadoozy✭✭✭✭Emmagoldman wrote: »
I still remember twice born meta. Doesn't even seem that long ago. This game has certainly changed since then3 -
SirDopey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yeah, the whole Iron attro dps parse numbers irks me.
Some numpty posts a 95k parse on the Iron attro in an entirely impossible situtation to reinact in a real raid and everyone starts crying that DPS is too high.
Extremely few people hit more than 50k on a normal 16m target.
Most raids are getting through stacked with DPS than can only marginly surpass 30K and the average player, as they have been for the last 3 years, is still sitting around 25kNA PC | AD
xx Doc Holliday xx3 -
SirDopey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »I'd like to know what people are getting in dps in actual world content, say when fighting a Dragon.
Typically, I get around 4-5k (and much of that comes from my Thunderbug armour). I should say though, I do usually build for survivability more than damage, so I can generally tank my way through most things I meet. I wonder if someone getting 50k on a dummy would get that in actual play, or if they could survive getting hit once or twice.
I've only been hunting dragons on my bow bow necro build which is half cooked, on a dummy I get 34k on a dragon its around 14.....NA PC | AD
xx Doc Holliday xx0 -
JKith✭✭✭ahhh... the good ol' bloodspawn days when you had to reset a dungeon and have a tank to get a shot at doing a DPS test.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hello everyone,
Lately I have been seeing people making claims about how DPS is so much greater now then a year or two ago. I have an issue with this statement as I am not sure how true it is.
A little backstory, I started playing DPS at the beginning of this year. My first parse on a 300k was 6k (ouch I know lol) over the course of the last 10 months I have improved greatly, maxing out at 51.5k on a 3 mil, or 48k on a 6 mil (solo parse no healer/tank sustain food)
I remember back before this year how most people considered 35-40k to be high DPS, so seeing 50-60k bring possible definitely shows that it had gone up. But I see a lot of people who are using people that hit 90-100k and are claiming that this is the true power creep. I feel this is misleading for two reasons.
1.) The iron atro did not exist during the time frame where 35-40k was considered high. Had it existed I suspect most people would have DPS in the 70-80k realm.
2.) There is not generally an accepted way to do parses. Some people allow healer/tanks. Some don't.
Perhaps I am mistaken, and if I am I encourage someone to elaborate on the issue further.
TL;DR - I feel the comparison between 90-100k today vs 35-40k a year or two ago is a falsehood and is not representative of the actual growth of DPS.
Pretty much no one who is a serious raider cares about what people parse on a dummy. Serious raiders only look at target dummies to refine and test rotations and builds.
What we do care about is the dps we can do on actual bosses that do not stand still like a target dummy (I.e Mage does not count). Even when we do want to look at dummy numbers for maybe testing a new player who does not have actual boss parses we want a high health dummy.
How we do in older trials is a great example of the power creep over the years. vMoL and especially vMoL HM are great examples since we can see how many pads are used which directly reflects the groups dps.
The first video is a Hodor clear from 5 Feb 2017 and at about 4:40 minutes in you can see the pad 7 burn of Rakkhat. Hodor has been one of the top raiding teams in this game for a long time. I picked them for the older video to ensure there was no appearance of cherry picking videos.
The second video is from 27 Jan 2019 and they begin a pad 3 burn about 2:30 minutes into the fight.
Both of these fights are in HM and that much difference would not be possible without a significant increase in dps over those 2 years. This demonstrates that the power creep has not only been real but has been real significant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWpyYDdqUrQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLpROTTFJd4 Edited by idk on October 31, 2019 5:41AM4 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭l
This demonstrates that the power creep has not only been real but has been real significant.
I don't think it's significant at all. Less and less people are able to do hard content for something that was already very gated. Looking at the best guild quickly compete content they've been doing for years does a poor job of actually telling the significance of power creep.4 -
carlos424✭✭✭✭✭ValueDrift wrote: »You are right, I often see people compare Iron Atronarch numbers of today to 6 mil dummy numbers of the past when the two have little in common and shouldn't be compared. Also these parse videos tend to run 11K health which you might not want to do against targets that fight back.
Yeah I do all my parses with 12k HP, but I also don't use a healer so in a actual trial I can assume that orbs can make up for the Regen I lost.
What about the shards dropped during the atro parse? Doesn’t that account for regen? Isn’t there a cooldown on shards/orbs?0 -
Darkenarlol✭✭✭✭✭
✭the ones who cry on forums about 100k dps versus 40
are the ones who don't even know about iron atro existance...or trolls
guilds have specific requirements with what numbers in what situation
they want to see (dummy type, what is allowed as assistance etc)
so again... comparing dps of cheesy (not viable in real situation) builds with
max resource/regen food and 12k hp from iron atro with full buffs/debuffs to
solo 3/6m parses in actual builds is a lack of understandment or...trolling0 -
mikemacon✭✭✭✭✭So don’t compare apples to orangutans.
Compare apples to apples.
Craftable target dummies were introduced with Homestead. So smack a 3 or 6 mil and compare DPS numbers with those from two years ago.
You’ll find that the DPS numbers are in fact significantly higher than they were - just not quite as high as comparing a 3mil kill with the trials atro kill.
When vMOL was introduced, 35k was considered godly DPS. Now groups “require” 50k on a 3mil.
The content itself has not changed.3 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Who MMO show dps based on gear? Yes WOW has gear score but dps is based on how much damage you do.As long as we don't have Combat Metrics on console, we're pretty much in the dark in regards to parses, or dps.
Heck, on other MMOs I've seen the "damage per second" immediately calculated by the system the instant you change gear, even if that's only a theoretical number. I find it mind boggling that ESO has dps checks in their trials and vet dungeons yet supplies maybe 0.001% of the information a player needs to improve.
And OP, I think I agree with you, and I really hope the developers are NOT using the new trial dummy as their standard for when to nerf dps. As you said, it's rare to see those kind of perfect conditions in any actual game contact where there's an enemy trying to kill you.
Dps in ESO is mostly skill as long as you have somewhat relevant gear and correct skills.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.1 -
SidraWillowsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SidraWillowsky wrote: »In my opinion, the Iron Atro dummy is absurd and has been a detriment to the ESO community as a whole. The VAST majority of players will NEVER play in groups organized enough to see the numbers they pull on the iron atro dummy. People claim that it’s a way to standardize parses, but come ON. I’m at around 72k on the atro dummy but have never, ever come even close to that on a single target in trials. If I’m lucky I’ll pull about 50k on a rather static boss fight, which is what I can pull on a 6 mil dummy.
Unless someone is looking to be the l33test of the l33t, their 21 mil parse will likely to wildly unrealistic.
A good group can buff you beyond the iron atro dummy. I have seen parses of ST 120k on vHRC
Right- my point was that the numbers are going to be unrealistic for MOST players, because most players aren't playing in that sort of group.1 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
They multiplied everything with 10 once back around Craglorn.I remember when 800-1000 DPS was great.
And yes remember that to.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.2 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So don’t compare apples to orangutans.
Compare apples to apples.
Craftable target dummies were introduced with Homestead. So smack a 3 or 6 mil and compare DPS numbers with those from two years ago.
You’ll find that the DPS numbers are in fact significantly higher than they were - just not quite as high as comparing a 3mil kill with the trials atro kill.
When vMOL was introduced, 35k was considered godly DPS. Now groups “require” 50k on a 3mil.
The content itself has not changed.
Old content hasn't changed.
Here is some insightful analysis courtesy of code65536.The three bosses in vMoL have a combined total health of 182M (that's with Hard Mode) and the speed-run is 40 minutes. In Sunspire, we're looking at 398M combined total health (with HM) and the speed-run is 30 minutes. 10 fewer minutes. And well over twice as much health to slog through.
The same goes for dungeons. Molag Kena in vWGT HM has, IIRC, around 3M health. The two latest DLC dungeons feature final bosses that have 15M and 17M health on HM.
Groups "require" 50k DPS because they are recruiting people to do content. Including newest trials and dungeons. Not just re-run 3 year old vMoL.
It is also the question of supply and demand. In 2016 you had to look real hard to find a DD who does 35k. Right now you can literally ask in zone and get someone who pulls more DPS than that. And if it is so easy to find someone with more DPS, why not go for it?3 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with the OP's sentiment, but I wanted to say that people talk about "power creep" like it is a bad thing, but that is not necessarily the case. Extreme power creep IS a bad thing, but some power creep is actually necessary for people to feel that they're progressing, either through vertical (character level) or horizontal (gear power) progression. And when your comparing apples-to-apples DPS tests on the same test dummies that were used say, three years ago, the DPS increases really aren't all that extreme, and I'd say it is what you would roughly expect from the game. And that level of power creep is what allows your average player to continue to progress to take on harder and harder content.
I can understand the Dev's concerns about power creep if it is starting to hinder their ability to design content that is challenging, but the content they are designing is ALREADY plenty challenging for the average player. If the content can be burned through by the Neckbeards due to their extremely high DPS, then that is an entirely separate issue - and one that will never be resolved until they address the elephant in the room that enables those players to hit extremely high DPS benchmarks - animation cancelling.
I don't have a hard line stance against animation cancelling, but the honest truth is that no balancing patch will ever adequately address power creep at the top end of the scale until everyone is put on an even playing field to start with - and you can only do that by getting rid of animation cancelling. With it, a top-end player can double the DPS output of an average player, so no balancing patch will ever reduce the power creep at the top end - it will only hurt the vast majority of players who play at an average-above average level. That is just a reality they can't get around.
Again, let me make myself clear, I'm not asking them to get rid of animation cancelling, I'm just pointing out the fact that they're not addressing the elephant in the room, which makes all this effort to fight power creep pointless. My preference would be that they just throw out the 100K DPS people as outliers and balance the game for the average player. And if the 100K DPS players get bored, so be it. They've put in a TON of time into this game to get where they are, after all, and taking a break and playing other games is not necessarily a bad thing.6 -
Zephard✭✭✭Darkenarlol wrote: »the ones who cry on forums about 100k dps versus 40
are the ones who don't even know about iron atro existance..
Have to agree with you Darkenarlol. I never wrote to complain, but have thought a lot about how could there be such a difference, of 40K to suddenly 100K. Cause I didn't know about the iron atro not being the same as 6 mil dummy.
After this thread, it is the first time I learned about it. It was truly like a light bulb turning on.
As far as "trails dps" vs overland dps. Zone Trail groups might want one thing, but unless the team is actually a guild or planned group, the likelihood of them having all the different buffs and debuffs is poor. Lots of people call Trails, and especially vTrails to be "end game content". Overland should never hold a candle to "end game content". And a person set up and good for "end game content" should by the words "end game" be done with Overland.
Not saying people who are at the "end game" lvl can't do overland, but they shouldn't complain or want overland to feel anything short of hot knife through room temperature butter.
0
https://youtu.be/u8m0IN2-nPk