How to counter SnB "hold block and heal" in U24

Luckylancer · October 2019

What do you think about Soldiers anguilsh set and knight slayer set? One is good at dealing damage to resistance tanks(block and M protection included), other one is strong againts HP tanks.

1 guy was using affliction (heavy) and "minor defile" set together. It is two defiles at same time with close to %100 up time.

barshemm · October 2019

I tried putting 60% defile on some of these guys to see how they held up. Did just fine with 6 pugs beating on them.

84 points befoul, fasalla and corrupting pollen.

I think it may be more block mitigation is over performing more than healing.

olsborg · October 2019

Holding block continuously for several seconds should come with a much more severe penalty, currently there rly isnt one.

PermablockTank · October 2019

Zos has messed up tanks enough over the years just stop people. There are so many counters to pvp tanks just get better.

usmcjdking · October 2019

Radial Blocking please.

Lokey0024 · October 2019

Bring more people. If you enjoy 1vX, COD just dropped.

Kadoin · October 2019

Tell ZOS to take PTS feedback seriously, that's the only counter ...

NBrookus · October 2019

brtomkin wrote: »

Why not add a set where light and heavy attacks deal significant oblivion damage to a blocking opponent and only a blocking opponent with no cooldown?

Remember old Shield Breaker? It was bad because it penalized one kind of build too harshly. Oblivion damage to any block would be just as bad, and would particularly be worse versus players who are selectively blocking because it would affect health regen or healing.

New Shield Breaker is very strong but less polarizing. A set which does x more damage to blocking targets would be strong but not so punitive.

As for nerfing block, PVE tanks *must* block. That's a non-starter. It should be clear to everyone by now ZOS won't add more things to Battle Spirit.

Moonsorrow · October 2019

NBrookus wrote: »

As for nerfing block, PVE tanks *must* block. That's a non-starter. It should be clear to everyone by now ZOS won't add more things to Battle Spirit.

This.

I hope even the people who are being blinded by their own selfishness as usual remember that pve tanking should and is not needed to be nerfed.. just next time when they all want things that kill people to be nerfed due to being "op" - this is the result. And then they complain that its too hard to kill and want defense and healing nerfed.. soon again they want offense nerfed since again they die too easy. Make up your mind people.

Kel · October 2019

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

GeneralSezme wrote: »

Crying out for nerfs again Xylena? What else?

You can have an Overload that extends 10m past its telegraph if I can have full strength DoTs and Defiles back.

Baconlad wrote: »

They removed sources of defile because players were building to 1v1 in full defile sets and roflstomping everyone not running it.

They removed Defiles because the potatoes holding block spamming BoL were mad that this wasn't keeping them alive. Defile builds actually struggled in competitive duels against damage shield Magicka specs or hit-n-run burst NBs.

katorga wrote: »

The meta always changes. What you can do one patch is not guaranteed in a different patch. Players have been block casting heals forever, and much more effectively than they can today, and it wasn't the end of the world.

It wasn't the end of the world because we had viable counters back then. What do we do now, without DoTs or Defiles? Are you able to burst upwards of 30k with a Fossilize combo? I'm still at a loss, and the consensus of this thread seems to be "we're all SOL until ZOS un-nerfs counterplay." If they aren't going to un-nerf DoTs and Defiles, then they would need to nerf PvP blocking and healing, sorry. Some more significant tradeoffs between block tanking and group healing or damage dealing probably wouldn't be a bad thing.

Or I guess you could celebrate solo and outnumbered PvP taking another huge nerf. Play your way, as long as your build has back bar SnB and you group with a stack of healbots. All hail the tank meta, may everyone zerg and nobody die.

Ran into a mag sorc....A MAG SORC mind...running S&B in a BG the other day.

It's definitely an issue.

Then again, ESO PvP has never really been about competition so much as finding the most broken mechanics and exploiting them to the fullest.
As much as I long for a more competitive field of battle, ESO PvP is all about cheese. Like it or not, if you're not running broken sh*t, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. And yes, it hurts my soul to say that..

Kadoin · October 2019

Kel wrote: »

As much as I long for a more competitive field of battle, ESO PvP is all about cheese. Like it or not, if you're not running broken sh*t, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. And yes, it hurts my soul to say that..

I don't run cheese, and its clear every time I die to someone that is, that its a huge disadvantage. However, I have to admit the most fun is obtained when you destroy someone in a cheese build or ruin their stream and they ragequit log or start crying. I just have to say either one of two things to them all the time either "you play the meta, I make it." Somehow that always makes those types explode

Ragnarock41 · October 2019

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Absolutely nothing to do with the high uptime of major vitality/protection, overnerfing of major defile sources, overbuffing heals, templar outbreak, get out of jail free purges, or the obviously overperforming CP power creep.

No I'm with you that there are more issues contributing to the tank meta than just SnB, but the counterplay to high SnB block uptime is very limited now. I'm just at a loss for how to stop these guys from endlessly blocking and healing. Defiles and dots are dead. If you have any ideas, I'd love to know.

I just gave you a huge list of what makes players tanky. Sword and Board users are supposed to be tanky when block is up. If you need to bypass block there are multiple class and non-class abilities that CC through block, aswell as root and snare spam also hurts permablockers to a great deal, while dot damage completely ignores block.

All of these things are intended block counters and the reason block was a complete joke just last patch. If certain classes can just purge those effects with ease, if dots do little to no damage now, that is not the fault of SnB, which has seen nothing but major nerfs.

I don't even have much of a reason to defend SnB but literally having back bar survivability is the only reason I run this over vBRP dual wield, which offers much cheaper major protection by the way.(and magicka classes get major vitality from BRP resto which is just as ridicilous, block gives %20 more mitigation at the cost of completely stopping my stamina regen + stamina lost for every 0.25 seconds.)

xylena_lazarow · October 2019

To reiterate, I'd be perfectly happy with zero changes being made to PvP blocking and healing, if ZOS were to un-nerf Defiles, DoTs, and stun combos (including removing cast times on melee ultis).

NBrookus wrote: »

It should be clear to everyone by now ZOS won't add more things to Battle Spirit.

And that's a mistake.

Lord-Otto · October 2019

Kel wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

GeneralSezme wrote: »

Crying out for nerfs again Xylena? What else?

You can have an Overload that extends 10m past its telegraph if I can have full strength DoTs and Defiles back.

Baconlad wrote: »

They removed sources of defile because players were building to 1v1 in full defile sets and roflstomping everyone not running it.

They removed Defiles because the potatoes holding block spamming BoL were mad that this wasn't keeping them alive. Defile builds actually struggled in competitive duels against damage shield Magicka specs or hit-n-run burst NBs.

katorga wrote: »

The meta always changes. What you can do one patch is not guaranteed in a different patch. Players have been block casting heals forever, and much more effectively than they can today, and it wasn't the end of the world.

It wasn't the end of the world because we had viable counters back then. What do we do now, without DoTs or Defiles? Are you able to burst upwards of 30k with a Fossilize combo? I'm still at a loss, and the consensus of this thread seems to be "we're all SOL until ZOS un-nerfs counterplay." If they aren't going to un-nerf DoTs and Defiles, then they would need to nerf PvP blocking and healing, sorry. Some more significant tradeoffs between block tanking and group healing or damage dealing probably wouldn't be a bad thing.

Or I guess you could celebrate solo and outnumbered PvP taking another huge nerf. Play your way, as long as your build has back bar SnB and you group with a stack of healbots. All hail the tank meta, may everyone zerg and nobody die.

Ran into a mag sorc....A MAG SORC mind...running S&B in a BG the other day.

It's definitely an issue.

Then again, ESO PvP has never really been about competition so much as finding the most broken mechanics and exploiting them to the fullest.
As much as I long for a more competitive field of battle, ESO PvP is all about cheese. Like it or not, if you're not running broken sh*t, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. And yes, it hurts my soul to say that..

So? Do you know for how long mag DKs have been running S&B? That shield is just the dedicated defensive weapon. Ice staff isn't half as good. And since blocking has no resource and damage scaling, it makes sense to be using it on any build which seeks a bit more defense. That's not an indication of brokenness, but just versatile (and good) weapon design.

xylena_lazarow · October 2019

Lord-Otto wrote: »

That's not an indication of brokenness, but just versatile (and good) weapon design.

Anything becomes broken when you delete all the counterplay to it.

BaiterOfZergs · October 2019

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

That's not an indication of brokenness, but just versatile (and good) weapon design.

Anything becomes broken when you delete all the counterplay to it.

It’s not broken, it’s been nerfed enough along with blocking. The people that build to just hold block will never really be affected by any nerf related to it. They’ll just find other ways to be tanky like always.

Davadin · October 2019

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I've never been at this much of a loss for how to effectively fight against a PvP meta. I play PC/NA CP PvP.

In the past, I'd effectively counter SnB "hold block and heal" with DoTs and Defiles, both of which have been pretty much deleted at this point. There's still a handful of unblockable stuns, but even on various flavors of full damage spec Medium SDK builds I'm not exactly dropping 35k burst damage with Fossilize or Turn Evil combos before they break free and block heal to full health. The old Dizzying Swing stun would open up a good window if you caught them with their block down, but now I'm not landing an unblocked followup medium attack for the stun unless they're really not paying attention (or they're a literal potato), nevermind the fact that Off-Balance is redundant with Tactician CP making it a waste of the ability's power budget.

Sustain was nerfed in terms of dealing damage, but untouched when it comes to playing defensively. I haven't seen anyone run out of resources blocking or healing unless they're being zerged (or they're a literal potato), while I've definitely lost fights to players on damage builds with back bar SnB because I ran out of resources trying to damage them (a new experience, I'm sure I can "adapt" to this part, but frustrating still). Resource poisons have poor uptime and don't affect block cost anyway. The saddest part is that I was consistently able to run perma blockers out of stamina back in the 1.X soft cap days, even though you could regen stamina while blocking. Achieving high SnB block uptime in PvP is just trivial now, both in build and skill investment.

I guess I'm hoping that I'm missing something, and that it's just a L2P "adapt" issue on my part, but it looks like we're in for a tedious 3 months of block, heal, and zerg.

Onslaught works well if timed right. I know it's not the ultimate answer, but 5 sec of 100% penetration works great with Dizzying spam with Leap + Executioner. Toss in a stun just to be sure, a couple of DoTs to start, or bring a friend or two.... and voila.

Works sometime.

Ragnarock41 · October 2019

Davadin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I've never been at this much of a loss for how to effectively fight against a PvP meta. I play PC/NA CP PvP.

In the past, I'd effectively counter SnB "hold block and heal" with DoTs and Defiles, both of which have been pretty much deleted at this point. There's still a handful of unblockable stuns, but even on various flavors of full damage spec Medium SDK builds I'm not exactly dropping 35k burst damage with Fossilize or Turn Evil combos before they break free and block heal to full health. The old Dizzying Swing stun would open up a good window if you caught them with their block down, but now I'm not landing an unblocked followup medium attack for the stun unless they're really not paying attention (or they're a literal potato), nevermind the fact that Off-Balance is redundant with Tactician CP making it a waste of the ability's power budget.

Sustain was nerfed in terms of dealing damage, but untouched when it comes to playing defensively. I haven't seen anyone run out of resources blocking or healing unless they're being zerged (or they're a literal potato), while I've definitely lost fights to players on damage builds with back bar SnB because I ran out of resources trying to damage them (a new experience, I'm sure I can "adapt" to this part, but frustrating still). Resource poisons have poor uptime and don't affect block cost anyway. The saddest part is that I was consistently able to run perma blockers out of stamina back in the 1.X soft cap days, even though you could regen stamina while blocking. Achieving high SnB block uptime in PvP is just trivial now, both in build and skill investment.

I guess I'm hoping that I'm missing something, and that it's just a L2P "adapt" issue on my part, but it looks like we're in for a tedious 3 months of block, heal, and zerg.

Onslaught works well if timed right. I know it's not the ultimate answer, but 5 sec of 100% penetration works great with Dizzying spam with Leap + Executioner. Toss in a stun just to be sure, a couple of DoTs to start, or bring a friend or two.... and voila.

Works sometime.

So you're suggesting them to use onslaught, and then somehow manage to gain 110 ultimate before the 5 second timer runs out? Or am I misunderstanding what I read?

LegacyDM · October 2019

Wheeler mains a magplar. Nough said.

Seems a pattern here with lead combat designers

Konkle = unkillable vampire DK lords
Wrobel = magsorc and stamblades
Wheeler = magplar

These devs are bias to their mains. I don’t buy the whole we make decisions on data crap.

Your one of the best xylena. It’s not you... it’s them...

Iskiab · October 2019

I don’t see the issue, use a fear or a cc that can’t be blocked.

If you run cookie cutter builds expect to run into builds that take advantage of you.

Lord-Otto · October 2019

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

That's not an indication of brokenness, but just versatile (and good) weapon design.

Anything becomes broken when you delete all the counterplay to it.

The point was, magsorcs using S&B isn't an indication of overpoweredness.

BaiterOfZergs · October 2019

LegacyDM wrote: »

Wheeler mains a magplar. Nough said.

Seems a pattern here with lead combat designers

Konkle = unkillable vampire DK lords
Wrobel = magsorc and stamblades
Wheeler = magplar

These devs are bias to their mains. I don’t buy the whole we make decisions on data crap.

Your one of the best xylena. It’s not you... it’s them...

Brian plays a dw/resto stamplar.

fbours · October 2019

Kel wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

GeneralSezme wrote: »

Crying out for nerfs again Xylena? What else?

You can have an Overload that extends 10m past its telegraph if I can have full strength DoTs and Defiles back.

Baconlad wrote: »

They removed sources of defile because players were building to 1v1 in full defile sets and roflstomping everyone not running it.

They removed Defiles because the potatoes holding block spamming BoL were mad that this wasn't keeping them alive. Defile builds actually struggled in competitive duels against damage shield Magicka specs or hit-n-run burst NBs.

katorga wrote: »

The meta always changes. What you can do one patch is not guaranteed in a different patch. Players have been block casting heals forever, and much more effectively than they can today, and it wasn't the end of the world.

It wasn't the end of the world because we had viable counters back then. What do we do now, without DoTs or Defiles? Are you able to burst upwards of 30k with a Fossilize combo? I'm still at a loss, and the consensus of this thread seems to be "we're all SOL until ZOS un-nerfs counterplay." If they aren't going to un-nerf DoTs and Defiles, then they would need to nerf PvP blocking and healing, sorry. Some more significant tradeoffs between block tanking and group healing or damage dealing probably wouldn't be a bad thing.

Or I guess you could celebrate solo and outnumbered PvP taking another huge nerf. Play your way, as long as your build has back bar SnB and you group with a stack of healbots. All hail the tank meta, may everyone zerg and nobody die.

Ran into a mag sorc....A MAG SORC mind...running S&B in a BG the other day.

It's definitely an issue.

Then again, ESO PvP has never really been about competition so much as finding the most broken mechanics and exploiting them to the fullest.
As much as I long for a more competitive field of battle, ESO PvP is all about cheese. Like it or not, if you're not running broken sh*t, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. And yes, it hurts my soul to say that..

You are explaining everysingle other MMO, in fact everysingle game out there. It is not a specific ESO issue. It is a human behavior.

Davadin · October 2019

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I've never been at this much of a loss for how to effectively fight against a PvP meta. I play PC/NA CP PvP.

In the past, I'd effectively counter SnB "hold block and heal" with DoTs and Defiles, both of which have been pretty much deleted at this point. There's still a handful of unblockable stuns, but even on various flavors of full damage spec Medium SDK builds I'm not exactly dropping 35k burst damage with Fossilize or Turn Evil combos before they break free and block heal to full health. The old Dizzying Swing stun would open up a good window if you caught them with their block down, but now I'm not landing an unblocked followup medium attack for the stun unless they're really not paying attention (or they're a literal potato), nevermind the fact that Off-Balance is redundant with Tactician CP making it a waste of the ability's power budget.

Sustain was nerfed in terms of dealing damage, but untouched when it comes to playing defensively. I haven't seen anyone run out of resources blocking or healing unless they're being zerged (or they're a literal potato), while I've definitely lost fights to players on damage builds with back bar SnB because I ran out of resources trying to damage them (a new experience, I'm sure I can "adapt" to this part, but frustrating still). Resource poisons have poor uptime and don't affect block cost anyway. The saddest part is that I was consistently able to run perma blockers out of stamina back in the 1.X soft cap days, even though you could regen stamina while blocking. Achieving high SnB block uptime in PvP is just trivial now, both in build and skill investment.

I guess I'm hoping that I'm missing something, and that it's just a L2P "adapt" issue on my part, but it looks like we're in for a tedious 3 months of block, heal, and zerg.

Onslaught works well if timed right. I know it's not the ultimate answer, but 5 sec of 100% penetration works great with Dizzying spam with Leap + Executioner. Toss in a stun just to be sure, a couple of DoTs to start, or bring a friend or two.... and voila.

Works sometime.

So you're suggesting them to use onslaught, and then somehow manage to gain 110 ultimate before the 5 second timer runs out? Or am I misunderstanding what I read?

yes. possible with Bloodspawn and being a Nord. but honestly very tough. quite achievable when it's 8~12 sec.

but even without leap, with Onslaught, u can fit 3x Dizzying + a couple Executioner.

wild_kmacdb16_ESO · October 2019

usmcjdking wrote: »

Radial Blocking please.

I like this idea. Always thought it was odd blocking creates a 360 degree force-field around you.

Koensol · October 2019

Imagine complaining about block in 2019. The amount of counters available are plenty and unless you spec for it, holding block for too long is a good way to get yourself stam checked.

xylena_lazarow · October 2019

Koensol wrote: »

Imagine complaining about block in 2019. The amount of counters available are plenty and unless you spec for it, holding block for too long is a good way to get yourself stam checked.

The counters to blocking and healing have been gutted. There's nothing more to "spec" into than equipping SnB on either bar for high block uptime and mitigation with minimal effort.

The end result in is PvP more stalemates and zerging than ever. It's not even satisfying to kill an enemy when you know the only reason they survived that long is devs butchering counterplay. It's like if they extended all the invulnerability phases on PvE bosses, without giving players any agency over ending them. It's just tedious.