How to counter SnB "hold block and heal" in U24

xylena_lazarow

I've never been at this much of a loss for how to effectively fight against a PvP meta. I play PC/NA CP PvP.

In the past, I'd effectively counter SnB "hold block and heal" with DoTs and Defiles, both of which have been pretty much deleted at this point. There's still a handful of unblockable stuns, but even on various flavors of full damage spec Medium SDK builds I'm not exactly dropping 35k burst damage with Fossilize or Turn Evil combos before they break free and block heal to full health. The old Dizzying Swing stun would open up a good window if you caught them with their block down, but now I'm not landing an unblocked followup medium attack for the stun unless they're really not paying attention (or they're a literal potato), nevermind the fact that Off-Balance is redundant with Tactician CP making it a waste of the ability's power budget.

Sustain was nerfed in terms of dealing damage, but untouched when it comes to playing defensively. I haven't seen anyone run out of resources blocking or healing unless they're being zerged (or they're a literal potato), while I've definitely lost fights to players on damage builds with back bar SnB because I ran out of resources trying to damage them (a new experience, I'm sure I can "adapt" to this part, but frustrating still). Resource poisons have poor uptime and don't affect block cost anyway. The saddest part is that I was consistently able to run perma blockers out of stamina back in the 1.X soft cap days, even though you could regen stamina while blocking. Achieving high SnB block uptime in PvP is just trivial now, both in build and skill investment.

I guess I'm hoping that I'm missing something, and that it's just a L2P "adapt" issue on my part, but it looks like we're in for a tedious 3 months of block, heal, and zerg.

Xvorg

I wish ZoS had considered my idea of "Guard Breaking" skills some years ago, before they nerfed permablocking

ChunkyCat

CP makes everything worse

xylena_lazarow

ChunkyCat wrote: »

CP makes everything worse

The unkillable healbot plague has spread to no-cp BGs as well.

LeHarrt91

Best counter to Tank/ Heal Bots is to just move on.

Waffennacht

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

CP makes everything worse

The unkillable healbot plague has spread to no-cp BGs as well.

Even if it has, it's not via permablock. Permablock is really only accessible via CP cost reductions.

Tbf I'm at a loss of how one could force block to be dropped in this meta

Or how to kill a BG tank actually...

This thread has made.me wanna revisit some sorc specs I had. Too bad necro didn't seem to get any better with the updates

xylena_lazarow

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Best counter to Tank/ Heal Bots is to just move on.

You could say that back when the only "tanks" were trolls that had neither damage nor group support, because tanking required building for it and managing tradeoffs. But now, there's no investment required beyond equipping SnB on your back bar, holding block, and healing. There's less counterplay than ever. Good luck taking out an enemy group if you can't shut down their heal spam. Thank Sithis for meatbags.

xylena_lazarow

Waffennacht wrote: »

Even if it has, it's not via permablock. Permablock is really only accessible via CP cost reductions.

It's not technically perma block in CP either, but in either mode it's high uptime for low investment, and the latest round of sustain nerfs has only further skewed the resource game in favor of playing defensive.

llElLoboll

@xylena_lazarow I've been trying to figure out the answer to those questions as well. I honestly think we've just gotten to the point where all the decent and effective counters have either been nerfed or removed. Counter play is consistently getting harder and harder.

Solariken

I haven't seen this become more of a problem in BGs vs last patch, except in the case of dedicated healers, which went from almost unkillable to mostly unkillable.

JinxxND

Solariken wrote: »

I haven't seen this become more of a problem in BGs vs last patch, except in the case of dedicated healers, which went from almost unkillable to mostly unkillable.

Agreed, especially in no CP unkillable tanks aren't really a problem unless your loaded in defensive sets yourself, no CP the "tanks" have to worry about resources management and don't get the inflated stats that is present in CP making the troll "unkillable" builds.

Ragnarock41

Ah yes, Its definitely the permablocks. Absolutely nothing to do with the high uptime of major vitality/protection, overnerfing of major defile sources, ,overbuffing heals, templar outbreak, get out of jail free purges, or the obviously overperforming CP power creep.

Nope, none of that, Its sword and shield. There's the root of the issue.

If we remove sword and shield from the game, we'll put an end to the tank meta. And then we definitely won't have to nerf anything ever again.

PapaWeeb

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Ah yes, Its definitely the permablocks. Absolutely nothing to do with the high uptime of major vitality/protection, overnerfing of major defile sources, ,overbuffing heals, templar outbreak, get out of jail free purges, or the obviously overperforming CP power creep.

Nope, none of that, Its sword and shield. There's the root of the issue.

If we remove sword and shield from the game, we'll put an end to the tank meta. And then we definitely won't have to nerf anything ever again.

Agreed, last patch healing jumped up from a powerful vigor /rapid regen. Sets Like BRP still exist. Defile gutted. The only thing countering that was high DoT damage, which we no longer have.

Unless you're a MagDK who builds for it, you're not doing any damage by holding block and healing. Nobody needs to burst 35k health, apply pressure and use the stun before they start to recover... If they're justbeholding block and healing then move on or focus them down

xylena_lazarow

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Absolutely nothing to do with the high uptime of major vitality/protection, overnerfing of major defile sources, overbuffing heals, templar outbreak, get out of jail free purges, or the obviously overperforming CP power creep.

No I'm with you that there are more issues contributing to the tank meta than just SnB, but the counterplay to high SnB block uptime is very limited now. I'm just at a loss for how to stop these guys from endlessly blocking and healing. Defiles and dots are dead. If you have any ideas, I'd love to know.

xylena_lazarow

PapaWeeb wrote: »

If they're justbeholding block and healing then move on or focus them down

Ignore them or zerg them? Sorry I used to be able to kill these guys myself, but ZOS doesn't want me to anymore. I'd sure like to "adapt" but I haven't figured it out yet, hence this thread.

And just holding block and healing keeps the whole group alive. See the above posts regarding how much dedicated healers skew the competition in BGs. You can't ignore them if you want to compete.

UrbanMonk

Other day i Saw Bislobo meeting a Player of similar description. After 10 min i think he just rode away.

chris211

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

PapaWeeb wrote: »

If they're justbeholding block and healing then move on or focus them down

Ignore them or zerg them? Sorry I used to be able to kill these guys myself, but ZOS doesn't want me to anymore. I'd sure like to "adapt" but I haven't figured it out yet, hence this thread.

And just holding block and healing keeps the whole group alive. See the above posts regarding how much dedicated healers skew the competition in BGs. You can't ignore them if you want to compete.

the pvp is a joke stop trying to compete and stop caring and you will be fine eso is in a terrible spot rn no point in getting worked up any more i barely even play the game sucks i recommend finding another game

Dr_Ganknstein

Just make it so only the first tick of a dot is blockable. If its applied by a ds first then just the dd is blockable.

GeneralSezme

Crying out for nerfs again Xylena? What else?

#MakeOverloadGreatAgain
#Moga
Unban Mike Pence my dawg din do nuthin mang

katorga

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

PapaWeeb wrote: »

If they're justbeholding block and healing then move on or focus them down

Ignore them or zerg them? Sorry I used to be able to kill these guys myself, but ZOS doesn't want me to anymore. I'd sure like to "adapt" but I haven't figured it out yet, hence this thread.

And just holding block and healing keeps the whole group alive. See the above posts regarding how much dedicated healers skew the competition in BGs. You can't ignore them if you want to compete.

The meta always changes. What you can do one patch is not guaranteed in a different patch.

Players have been block casting heals forever, and much more effectively than they can today, and it wasn't the end of the world.

lukoi

How does one blockcast exactly?

Is it like weaving where you cast an ability and then break animation to fire an LA? Cast the heal and immediately go back to blocking? Or can you actually trigger the cast while blocking and nevet drop the block.

All of my pvp chars have been reliant on roll dodginh, LOSing and position play to reduce damage instead of blocking up to this point, hence my question.

Thanks.

BaiterOfZergs

Well if everyone thought of the consequences to the nerfs they call for there wouldn’t be so many double edge sword changes.

Fur_like_snow

Problem is they removed the few good sources of major defile while keeping healing at the same height it was last patch when healing was buffed as a soft counter to increased DoT damage. My recommendation would be to use 2h ult as part of your combo. If they won’t die from a full burst combo it’s prob time to move on to easier targets.

Ankael07

You fix the Disease enchantment so it procs Major Defile like its supposed to be and you nerf the uptime on Major Vitality and Protection from Blackrose weapons

SipofMaim

UrbanMonk wrote: »

Other day i Saw Bislobo meeting a Player of similar description. After 10 min i think he just rode away.

Maybe they'll die of boredom.

Royaji

lukoi wrote: »

How does one blockcast exactly?

Is it like weaving where you cast an ability and then break animation to fire an LA? Cast the heal and immediately go back to blocking? Or can you actually trigger the cast while blocking and nevet drop the block.

All of my pvp chars have been reliant on roll dodginh, LOSing and position play to reduce damage instead of blocking up to this point, hence my question.

Thanks.

All instant cast skills can be used without dropping block. Just hold block and press the skill button.

brtomkin

Why not add a set where light and heavy attacks deal significant oblivion damage to a blocking opponent and only a blocking opponent with no cooldown?

leepalmer95

Add to battle spirit : healng reduced by 30% while blocking.

Baconlad

They removed sources of defile because players were building to 1v1 in full defile sets and roflstomping everyone not running it.

Only thing most players are noticing is the amount of fkng magplar there are in the game right now that respecced to healbots, they did so because they thought with magplar buffs they could just roll over to magplar and smash their faces on keyboards and win. Now they realise that they suck, so they respect to healers. High mitigation coward ass ***.

That's what I'm seeing and many in cyrodiil have reported as well.

xylena_lazarow

GeneralSezme wrote: »

Crying out for nerfs again Xylena? What else?

You can have an Overload that extends 10m past its telegraph if I can have full strength DoTs and Defiles back.

Baconlad wrote: »

They removed sources of defile because players were building to 1v1 in full defile sets and roflstomping everyone not running it.

They removed Defiles because the potatoes holding block spamming BoL were mad that this wasn't keeping them alive. Defile builds actually struggled in competitive duels against damage shield Magicka specs or hit-n-run burst NBs.

katorga wrote: »

The meta always changes. What you can do one patch is not guaranteed in a different patch. Players have been block casting heals forever, and much more effectively than they can today, and it wasn't the end of the world.

It wasn't the end of the world because we had viable counters back then. What do we do now, without DoTs or Defiles? Are you able to burst upwards of 30k with a Fossilize combo? I'm still at a loss, and the consensus of this thread seems to be "we're all SOL until ZOS un-nerfs counterplay." If they aren't going to un-nerf DoTs and Defiles, then they would need to nerf PvP blocking and healing, sorry. Some more significant tradeoffs between block tanking and group healing or damage dealing probably wouldn't be a bad thing.

Or I guess you could celebrate solo and outnumbered PvP taking another huge nerf. Play your way, as long as your build has back bar SnB and you group with a stack of healbots. All hail the tank meta, may everyone zerg and nobody die.

lukoi

Royaji wrote: »

lukoi wrote: »

How does one blockcast exactly?

Is it like weaving where you cast an ability and then break animation to fire an LA? Cast the heal and immediately go back to blocking? Or can you actually trigger the cast while blocking and nevet drop the block.

All of my pvp chars have been reliant on roll dodginh, LOSing and position play to reduce damage instead of blocking up to this point, hence my question.

Thanks.

All instant cast skills can be used without dropping block. Just hold block and press the skill button.

Thanks @Royaji, I never knew that! Must add that to my tool kit.