This is getting beyond ridiculous.

Elsonso · October 2019

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

Also, you seem to entirely think its just "buy parts". What if it's not? It could very well be a code based limitation. For all we know the login system just physically can't handle the influx and its snowballing everything else to death. That isn't a simple or quick fix. It's a rebuild probably given the age of the game. That takes TIME.

I think they have reached the maximum capacity that the database structure and technology can handle without a major, and costly, overhaul.

If you read the performance plan you see one of the major pain points in there: they plan to offload seldom used player data to a secondary database ("cold storage"). Off the 17mio+ sold copied they brag about only a minority is used on a regular basis, the rest is clogging the database up and making accessing stuff slower.

Once that has happened database access should be faster. But this is a complex topic (depending a lot on the code quality) and I wouldn't be to confident that ZOS can pull that feat off ...

Yes. They are adjusting the game to fit into the performance limitations of the database system they are using. They have been doing that all year.

Arthur_Spoonfondle · October 2019

Whatever the Zenimax apologists say, very slow logging-in and loading times have been a constant problem, on EU servers, since the game launched.

Zenimax have had 5 1/2 years to put it right...

darthgummibear_ESO · October 2019

Arthur_Spoonfondle wrote: »

Whatever the Zenimax apologists say, very slow logging-in and loading times have been a constant problem, on EU servers, since the game launched.

Zenimax have had 5 1/2 years to put it right...

If this is what life has been like for EU this whole time, how do they still have EU customers?

nafensoriel · October 2019

Iluvrien wrote: »

Yes it does. If the cost of providing a working service is greater than the loss they would make due to enough players leaving to make the load reasonably balanced again... then they will lose those players.

I think this really is a case of them not caring, because caring will cost them money not make it. And that makes perfect business sense.

You haven't owned your own business then. No one does this. This is insane. There really is nothing more to say about it.
There is no cost analysis in existence where pissing off your customers and causing two years of bad press is a good thing and a cost-saving measure.

@Luckylancer
Knowing there is a problem and being able to do anything in that time frame are not the same thing.
Do you honestly believe a bunch of smart programmers(and programmers have some of the highest IQs in the workforce) didn't see this coming a mile away? Do you honestly think they haven't been working on it?
This game took years to build. Not 6 months. Not 12 months. Years. Almost 7 in fact. During that development, they had plenty of time to build a system. Now fast forward to today. They have a fraction of that time working with code very few will have experience with on a LIVE PLATFORM(this is a HUGE ISSUE) that is constantly evolving by the nature of it being live.
It is frankly amazing they are working as fast as they are. Some people at ZOS are crunching hardcore to fix this problem and they most absolutely DO NOT get 7 years to "get it done".

@lordrichter is most likely 100% correct. It's not a simple problem. It's not a problem you fix in a week, a month, maybe even a year. It's a problem that has to be corrected and I will bet any sum of money it's being corrected but accept reality. It's going to take time. That sucks. For players and for ZOS. Hitting something like this seriously puts them at risk. ESO might be the "top" mmo right now but losing support and going from "top" to "broke" can happen very quickly indeed.

I'm not an apologist. I'm just someone whose been on the other side of this issue when all you have are mountains of impossible and customers who don't give a crap that someone who isn't you made a choice years ago that you now have to clean up. Trust me when I say a little understanding will go a long way to supporting the programmers who now are fixing someone else's choices.

Elsonso · October 2019

nafensoriel wrote: »

I'm not an apologist. I'm just someone whose been on the other side of this issue when all you have are mountains of impossible and customers who don't give a crap that someone who isn't you made a choice years ago that you now have to clean up. Trust me when I say a little understanding will go a long way to supporting the programmers who now are fixing someone else's choices.

It is even worse when it is your decision, and there is nothing to be done about it because too much is piled on top of that decision.

Iluvrien · October 2019

nafensoriel wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Yes it does. If the cost of providing a working service is greater than the loss they would make due to enough players leaving to make the load reasonably balanced again... then they will lose those players.

I think this really is a case of them not caring, because caring will cost them money not make it. And that makes perfect business sense.

You haven't owned your own business then. No one does this. This is insane. There really is nothing more to say about it.
There is no cost analysis in existence where pissing off your customers and causing two years of bad press is a good thing and a cost-saving measure.

Two years? Earlier in this thread you were saying it was only since June.

However, inconsistencies aside, you're right. I've never owned my own business.

However, for two years I worked for a boutique market research agency in central London on contracts for multi-billion pound international businesses (think large financial and utilities conglomerates) who did exactly this.

The reasons given were usually along the lines of:

Bad press will blow over if you are big enough.
Unhappy customers have short memories and can be bought back over time with a minimum number of changes to services.
Showing bad results to your stakeholders was likely to cause far more immediate damage.

Something to consider, perhaps.

Jhalin · October 2019

nafensoriel wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Yes it does. If the cost of providing a working service is greater than the loss they would make due to enough players leaving to make the load reasonably balanced again... then they will lose those players.

I think this really is a case of them not caring, because caring will cost them money not make it. And that makes perfect business sense.

You haven't owned your own business then. No one does this. This is insane. There really is nothing more to say about it.
There is no cost analysis in existence where pissing off your customers and causing two years of bad press is a good thing and a cost-saving measure.

@Luckylancer
Knowing there is a problem and being able to do anything in that time frame are not the same thing.
Do you honestly believe a bunch of smart programmers(and programmers have some of the highest IQs in the workforce) didn't see this coming a mile away? Do you honestly think they haven't been working on it?
This game took years to build. Not 6 months. Not 12 months. Years. Almost 7 in fact. During that development, they had plenty of time to build a system. Now fast forward to today. They have a fraction of that time working with code very few will have experience with on a LIVE PLATFORM(this is a HUGE ISSUE) that is constantly evolving by the nature of it being live.
It is frankly amazing they are working as fast as they are. Some people at ZOS are crunching hardcore to fix this problem and they most absolutely DO NOT get 7 years to "get it done".

@/ is most likely 100% correct. It's not a simple problem. It's not a problem you fix in a week, a month, maybe even a year. It's a problem that has to be corrected and I will bet any sum of money it's being corrected but accept reality. It's going to take time. That sucks. For players and for ZOS. Hitting something like this seriously puts them at risk. ESO might be the "top" mmo right now but losing support and going from "top" to "broke" can happen very quickly indeed.

I'm not an apologist. I'm just someone whose been on the other side of this issue when all you have are mountains of impossible and customers who don't give a crap that someone who isn't you made a choice years ago that you now have to clean up. Trust me when I say a little understanding will go a long way to supporting the programmers who now are fixing someone else's choices.

I’m not sure if you remember but ZOS fired a good chunk of the original software developers for this game.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/gamerant.com/elder-scrolls-online-layoff-zenimax-bethesda/amp/

Of course the current team can’t actually fix anything on this engine when they hardly know how it works in the first place.

Eldartar · October 2019

Iluvrien wrote: »

Yes it does. If the cost of providing a working service is greater than the loss they would make due to enough players leaving to make the load reasonably balanced again... then they will lose those players.

I think this really is a case of them not caring, because caring will cost them money not make it. And that makes perfect business sense.

You clearly do not own your own business and have no business sense. NO Company and I mean NO Company goes in to Business not caring about their customer's, Customer's are the life blood of ANY Business, A happy Customer is more likely to return again and again. Caring for your Customer's makes you money, you invest your time, money and energy to make money.
That is perfect Business sense.

Upset your customer base by not caring at your peril because in the end you would have NO business.

darthgummibear_ESO · October 2019

nafensoriel wrote: »

I'm not an apologist. I'm just someone whose been on the other side of this issue when all you have are mountains of impossible and customers who don't give a crap that someone who isn't you made a choice years ago that you now have to clean up. Trust me when I say a little understanding will go a long way to supporting the programmers who now are fixing someone else's choices.

It's a great sentiment, but ultimately doesn't amount to squat when they give us zero communication other than meaningless platitudes.

Elsonso · October 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

I’m not sure if you remember but ZOS fired a good chunk of the original software developers for this game.

Oddly enough, nowhere in that article does it say that they fired a "good chunk of the original software developers."

Jhalin · October 2019

lordrichter wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

I’m not sure if you remember but ZOS fired a good chunk of the original software developers for this game.

Oddly enough, nowhere in that article does it say that they fired a "good chunk of the original software developers."

https://www.polygon.com/2014/9/3/6103179/elder-scrolls-online-zenimax-online-studios-layoffs

The statement from Bethesda says that the job losses were concentrated in two fields, customer service and development.

Elsonso · October 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

I’m not sure if you remember but ZOS fired a good chunk of the original software developers for this game.

Oddly enough, nowhere in that article does it say that they fired a "good chunk of the original software developers."

https://www.polygon.com/2014/9/3/6103179/elder-scrolls-online-zenimax-online-studios-layoffs

The statement from Bethesda says that the job losses were concentrated in two fields, customer service and development.

Oddly enough, nowhere in that article does it say that they fired a "good chunk of the original software developers."

Jhalin · October 2019

lordrichter wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

I’m not sure if you remember but ZOS fired a good chunk of the original software developers for this game.

Oddly enough, nowhere in that article does it say that they fired a "good chunk of the original software developers."

https://www.polygon.com/2014/9/3/6103179/elder-scrolls-online-zenimax-online-studios-layoffs

The statement from Bethesda says that the job losses were concentrated in two fields, customer service and development.

Oddly enough, nowhere in that article does it say that they fired a "good chunk of the original software developers."

Sorry I didn’t think it had to literally be spelled out for you that when the dev team has layoffs, they lose part of their team.

It speaks for itself anyway that the current team doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell to understand the engine this game runs on.

nafensoriel · October 2019

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

I'm not an apologist. I'm just someone whose been on the other side of this issue when all you have are mountains of impossible and customers who don't give a crap that someone who isn't you made a choice years ago that you now have to clean up. Trust me when I say a little understanding will go a long way to supporting the programmers who now are fixing someone else's choices.

It's a great sentiment, but ultimately doesn't amount to squat when they give us zero communication other than meaningless platitudes.

So the recent post.. and the post before that.. and the post before that..
Do not count as communications?

Of course, they don't. The amount of communication demanded is absurd. Hell in a recent forum poll over a third of the forums thought getting half a year sub free AND a crapton of crowns is acceptable compensation.

Communication is a great strawman. Everyone can demand it. No one has to claim it was sufficient... and its an infinitely repeatable complaint even if everything is going great.

This is why sayings like "You can spend time fixing problems or talking about problems. Choose which youd like more." is a thing.

@Iluvrien you listed what amount to basic monopolies. Of course, they don't have to care about customer service. People like heat, lighting, and money. A bank could require all transactions come with a kick to the *** and they wouldn't lose all that many clients. In fact if that kick came fee-free theyd probably get MORE clients.

For the rest of us without slave customers, we actually have to care.

Elsonso · October 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

I’m not sure if you remember but ZOS fired a good chunk of the original software developers for this game.

Oddly enough, nowhere in that article does it say that they fired a "good chunk of the original software developers."

https://www.polygon.com/2014/9/3/6103179/elder-scrolls-online-zenimax-online-studios-layoffs

The statement from Bethesda says that the job losses were concentrated in two fields, customer service and development.

Oddly enough, nowhere in that article does it say that they fired a "good chunk of the original software developers."

Sorry I didn’t think it had to literally be spelled out for you that when the dev team has layoffs, they lose part of their team.

It speaks for itself anyway that the current team doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell to understand the engine this game runs on.

Actually, you are making some unwarranted assumptions that they went through and ravaged the development team and that there was only a fraction remaining. That is how I interpret your "good chunk" (edit: and the general tone of your response). In fact, at the time, what I remember from what was said in various channels was that, while there were developers that were let go, the primary target was support staff, and that the developers that were let go were extra developers, not core developers.

Your article in no way supports the point that it looks like you are trying to make.