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Everything needed to know about Bow/Bow in PVE - Dragonhold Update

  • JulLeBarge
    Thanks for your answers. I'll go with the Necro as it has more useful class skills for this build.
  • Arwyr
    Arwyr
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    anyone else try their bow builds yet on the latest pts patch? not sure if i'm missing something or it really is just a massive dps nerf on everything. on the 3 mil dummy hitting about 37-38k with my stamsorc on live server (stormfist/tzogvin/automaton/vma bow) using arrow barrage, soul trap, poison injection, and focused aim. same setup now on the pts is like 30-32k (tried same skills as live, also tried with stam morph of clannfear which was around 32k). haven't bothered with relequen yet on pts (i generally dont use it much anyway), i realize it would be slightly higher. just want to know if the numbers i'm seeing seem right based on the changes. a dps loss by that much just seems pretty messed up.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Its same as last patch really, expect big dps loss around 30%, but wouldnt worry too much, with some adjustments (again) i suspect it wont be as dire.
    PC | EU | AD
  • Arwyr
    Arwyr
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    well either way, aside from overall dps loss its nice to see a few more options now that sorcs have stam pet and wardens have stam swarm. still figuring out how to use bound armaments now that it has a similar functionality to grim focus, so we'll see how that goes.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Arwyr wrote: »
    well either way, aside from overall dps loss its nice to see a few more options now that sorcs have stam pet and wardens have stam swarm. still figuring out how to use bound armaments now that it has a similar functionality to grim focus, so we'll see how that goes.

    Indeed, lots of quite positive changes. Bow/bow can drop anywhere in that with dps since its too specific and PI/volley did got hit again, but classes that lacked things got them.

    But patch is young and stuff changes too much based on cry threads so we will see how it actually looks in 2 weeks when the core is done and its worth bothering testing :D
    PC | EU | AD
  • Holycannoli
    Holycannoli
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    Arwyr wrote: »
    anyone else try their bow builds yet on the latest pts patch? not sure if i'm missing something or it really is just a massive dps nerf on everything. on the 3 mil dummy hitting about 37-38k with my stamsorc on live server (stormfist/tzogvin/automaton/vma bow) using arrow barrage, soul trap, poison injection, and focused aim. same setup now on the pts is like 30-32k (tried same skills as live, also tried with stam morph of clannfear which was around 32k). haven't bothered with relequen yet on pts (i generally dont use it much anyway), i realize it would be slightly higher. just want to know if the numbers i'm seeing seem right based on the changes. a dps loss by that much just seems pretty messed up.

    They are nerfing things way too hard this PTS patch, not just bow skills. It's ridiculous. 33% - 63% damage nerfs along with some really nasty cost increases on some skills and total changes to how some skills work (Dizzying Swing mega-nerf).

    And I'm pretty sure a stam clannfear that needs to be on both bars will not be helping stamsorcs.

    I'm just not confident on bow use if this PTS patch survives to live. Not really confident in anything. So many nerfs to so many things.
  • Earrindo
    Earrindo
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    My impression is that they are pushing certain classes to be stronger with bow/bow on purpose. The cutting dive change only benefits bow wardens, the swarm change obviously adds to our aoe capabilities.
    The nerfs to volley and PI suck, but I concur with SodanTok, I suspect they're gonna back off those nerfs by the end of the cycle.
    Overall, as a bow warden, im cautiously optimistic about the changes, but time will tell how it will all shake out.
  • Jephry
    Jephry
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    May have to switch my bow/bow necro back to 2h or DW and go back to bow/bow on my warden. Taking a wait and see approach for now...
  • JulLeBarge
    As I just finished to level my Bow/Bow Necro and switch my Warden from stam to mag... I'll wait to see how this evolve on the PTS, it's just the 1st week after all
  • Joxer61
    Joxer61
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    Zero_Mutt wrote: »
    Why is Soul Trap used now? Alcast uses it all of his builds now but he doesnt explain why.

    But Xynode does on his builds..... ;)
  • Joxer61
    Joxer61
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    JulLeBarge wrote: »
    As I just finished to level my Bow/Bow Necro and switch my Warden from stam to mag... I'll wait to see how this evolve on the PTS, it's just the 1st week after all

    I did the same.....love Magden so just swapped him around but now am keen on making a Bow/Bow Necro (I need ranged playstyle...bad lag and all) based on the amount of ranged skills they have. BUT......if they are gonna suck.....then why bother eh?
    Damn waiting and all...………. ;)
  • Zero_Mutt
    Zero_Mutt
    Soul Shriven
    Do you think Vicious Serpent is going to be a good set to use in the next update?
  • Arwyr
    Arwyr
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    anyone know if barrage is still the only option for getting backbar enchants to proc while on frontbar? would be nice if i could drop it and run soul trap instead with PI on a master bow for pure single target situations. sustain sucks with those high aoe costs now unless i switch my jewelry enchants or change to bosmer.
  • SodanTok
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    Sorry to anyone that was waiting for some update etc, but this PTS was just bad. Not as much because of the changes made (from my point of view at least), but because first 4 weeks were useless to test on.

    In any case, this is my not so short, but quite shallow Dragonhold Update done with minimum testing, mostly based on what others found out or what seems right. Its also aimed at the 'standard' way to play, I know there are potential strong Asylum/BRP etc combos, but other than that not much changed (compared to Elsweyr patch) for bow. Other than DPS taking dive.

    tl;dr 70% of what I say is what I think is best (or close enough) based on changes that happened, rest is what I know is best.

    Gear
    • Rele+Lokke+Monster set combination (veli, stormfist, maarselok, 1+1 pen and weapon damage) remains strongest. Minus the untapped (by me) potential from possible special bow mixing obviously.
    • Tzogvin isnt as bad as it was. Well its still as strong as it was, but ranged lightweight trap is worthless again. So def set to pick and use as alternative to lokke (usually) or rele (in fights where rele sux) when you dont want or cant stand close enough to use melee barbed rap.
    • Doubt deadly strikes is worth it, maybe on DK. Other gear choices that were strong before are probably as strong now.
    • Backbar bow. With longer volley (more below) VMA bow is back again. Its still weaker than it was, but should outperform master bow in static rotation (where poison injection is casted every 14s not 10s). If using Poison Injection on cooldown (dynamic casting) master bow should still win by a bit.


    Skills - With huge DoTs nerf all around they all look almost not worth it, but most of the DoTs we have been using are still too good to pass.
    • Volley got huge cost increase on top of small damage decrease. Doesnt mean currently used morph Arrow Barrage isnt good, but it is just better for sustain to use 4s longer Endless Hail. Which also makes vma bow better (in general, but even more for bow/bow).
    • Poison Injection - much weaker than it was, but still good enough to use (and must if you have master bow). And no, even with the direct working as execute, it is still not skill to just spam in execute range. Barely better than normal spammable.
    • Soul Trap - AoE (soul splitting) morph just not worth using on single target, but Consuming trap morph definitely worth casting still. Damage isnt great, but its basically free for stamina users.
    • Beast Trap - Lightweight is worthless, but because of how Lokke is strong set and how Barbed (melee) trap is still good skill its worth using it when able to be within melee range and hitting targets reliably.
    • Shadow Silk - technically one of strongest skills (Aoe + lots of damage + synergy), but annoying to use in rotation and easy to miss targets that move (since it takes 10s for the big explosion). Situational, not must have.
    • Acid Spray - technically still one of best skills to use even single target, but unless you are DK you might find lacking resources this patch to use this skill too much.
    • Spammables - not much changed. Snipe is still best. Rest are still solid so pick what you prefer. Every class has access to at least two (one in FG one in psijic).

    Classes
    • Warden - both cutting dive and swarm got changed which will have impact. Swarm itself is quite weak skill like most DoTs, but if you can afford to have it on frontbar its kinda worth using, same for AoEs and if there is lack of minor vulnerability definitely worth it. Cutting Dive got changed to off balance on cast (great change for solo or pvp), in group setting it wont be noticeable, but the other effect will. Everytime target is off balanced, this skill basically deals double the damage. Will need more testing but so far it seems that during those precious 7s of offbalance nothing but probably Hail (def with vma bow) and Poison Injection (in execute or with master bow) is worth casting over just spamming this skill.
    • Necro - ulti changed (cooldown on major vulnerability) making it super annoying and super important to use addons or communicate with people about the use. Siphon is still annoying to use but differently. Overall nothing much changed. All skills are still worth using as they were used.
    • Nightblade - grim focus duration change is nice buff. Shade was nerfed but probably still worth using for being free.
    • DK - all skills should still be worth using. New stonefist is definitely worth using just to keep the stacks on enemies if noone else does it. And even if someone does, its worth if you are looking for spammable that isnt snipe. Better than psijic crushing weapon definitely.
    • Templar - PoTL got buffed (or nerfed depending on point of view). In any case it means its worth using it as much as possible. Other than that cant recall any bow/bow relevant changes.
    • Sorc - bound armaments got huge buff. It now works like NB's grim focus, which means it also works from range. Definitely skill to put on bar and use when possible.
    Edited by SodanTok on October 16, 2019 9:29PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    Have you tried lokk relequen master + asylum bow or lokk relequen asylum + brp bow?
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Have you tried lokk relequen master + asylum bow or lokk relequen asylum + brp bow?

    Nope and while I would want to say I will there is good chance I wont get to it. Both asylum combinations require by nature use of snipe. My time spent in ESO is already quite shorter than it used to be, so little time combined with less interest than I used to have pushes testing of things I will not use myself too far away to future :D And I am definitely not touching snipe in my 20fps, 300ms trials.

    In any case if sustain allows it (and on DK it will) I would believe asylum+master is as strong if not strongest ranged option. BRP I havent touched to dare to say.
    Edited by SodanTok on October 16, 2019 10:07PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Have you tried lokk relequen master + asylum bow or lokk relequen asylum + brp bow?

    Nope and while I would want to say I will there is good chance I wont get to it. Both asylum combinations require by nature use of snipe. My time spent in ESO is already quite shorter than it used to be, so little time combined with less interest than I used to have pushes testing of things I will not use myself too far away to future :D And I am definitely not touching snipe in my 20fps, 300ms trials.

    with asylum + brp you cast acid spray on your asylum bar with a light attack then bar swap to your brp bar and cast magnum for a giant dot
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Have you tried lokk relequen master + asylum bow or lokk relequen asylum + brp bow?

    Nope and while I would want to say I will there is good chance I wont get to it. Both asylum combinations require by nature use of snipe. My time spent in ESO is already quite shorter than it used to be, so little time combined with less interest than I used to have pushes testing of things I will not use myself too far away to future :D And I am definitely not touching snipe in my 20fps, 300ms trials.

    with asylum + brp you cast acid spray on your asylum bar with a light attack then bar swap to your brp bar and cast magnum for a giant dot

    Oh you mean using acid purely to buff BRP DoT? I can try that, I doubt its better than dunno veli+smth else. Even with the buffed BRP bow its still only 2-3 ticks (half) in normal stacking distance.
    PC | EU | AD
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Have you tried lokk relequen master + asylum bow or lokk relequen asylum + brp bow?

    Nope and while I would want to say I will there is good chance I wont get to it. Both asylum combinations require by nature use of snipe. My time spent in ESO is already quite shorter than it used to be, so little time combined with less interest than I used to have pushes testing of things I will not use myself too far away to future :D And I am definitely not touching snipe in my 20fps, 300ms trials.

    with asylum + brp you cast acid spray on your asylum bar with a light attack then bar swap to your brp bar and cast magnum for a giant dot

    Oh you mean using acid purely to buff BRP DoT? I can try that, I doubt its better than dunno veli+smth else. Even with the buffed BRP bow its still only 2-3 ticks (half) in normal stacking distance.

    max dot duration is at 15m for brp bow next patch
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Have you tried lokk relequen master + asylum bow or lokk relequen asylum + brp bow?

    Nope and while I would want to say I will there is good chance I wont get to it. Both asylum combinations require by nature use of snipe. My time spent in ESO is already quite shorter than it used to be, so little time combined with less interest than I used to have pushes testing of things I will not use myself too far away to future :D And I am definitely not touching snipe in my 20fps, 300ms trials.

    with asylum + brp you cast acid spray on your asylum bar with a light attack then bar swap to your brp bar and cast magnum for a giant dot

    Oh you mean using acid purely to buff BRP DoT? I can try that, I doubt its better than dunno veli+smth else. Even with the buffed BRP bow its still only 2-3 ticks (half) in normal stacking distance.

    max dot duration is at 15m for brp bow next patch

    Yeah I know, i will give it a try, but these things rarely work out. It has to offer more than even marginal dps gain, because its gonna be greatly limited. 15m is still over 10 meters more than you will be standing in any stacked group. Walking backwards to cast one skill before returning to group are in the end rarely worth it, but I will give it try anyway for sake of content like vAS or even eternal servant in vSS where its much easier/guaranteed to be far.
    PC | EU | AD
  • Arwyr
    Arwyr
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    any thoughts on cp setup this patch?
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Arwyr wrote: »
    any thoughts on cp setup this patch?

    CP setup varies class to class, skills used to skills used. I would recommend downloading addon Constellation to calculate precisely, but only by adding all data to it manually. Probably wouldnt go below 37 Thaumaturge and above 61 master at arms, with some 56 precise strikes at minimum and 56 to 64 mighty.
    PC | EU | AD
  • Jephry
    Jephry
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    Thank you, @SodanTok , as always, for all your insight. Should be an interesting patch, to say the least - especially for us console players.
  • Austinseph1
    Austinseph1
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    This will be interesting on my Bowden, a couple of new things to try when nerfhold goes live XD
  • Arwyr
    Arwyr
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    cp change (37 thaum, 61 master at arms, 56 precise/mighty) worked out great on my stam sorc, particularly using the 14 second rotation with hail and letting poison injection and soul trap fall off. definitely boring spamming snipe 7 or 8 times, but at least it got me back up to around 64k (70 with relequen), so good enough for me. still haven't used bound armaments though, not quite sure how to work it into a rotation (maybe 2x per rotation, start and end of frontbar?). feels awkward to use.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    Arwyr wrote: »
    cp change (37 thaum, 61 master at arms, 56 precise/mighty) worked out great on my stam sorc, particularly using the 14 second rotation with hail and letting poison injection and soul trap fall off. definitely boring spamming snipe 7 or 8 times, but at least it got me back up to around 64k (70 with relequen), so good enough for me. still haven't used bound armaments though, not quite sure how to work it into a rotation (maybe 2x per rotation, start and end of frontbar?). feels awkward to use.

    Assuming you are looking for something simple then quite literally simplest way is "when you see it". But it will be worth slotting always and using if you can manage to shoot it at least 3 times in those 40s so dont bother about it much and just use it when can :D
    Having it on single spot in rotation is probably possible only if you decide to just use it once in those 14s. Still better than not but obv not using it to full potential.
    PC | EU | AD
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    After trying few times these are the averages I am getting. Its important to note my skill level is the greatest limiting factor in getting higher numbers, right after awful latency and not minmaxing it to last drop.
    tKmuwOL.png
    I was saving parses to screenshots but half way thru i forgot and then got dced on top of it so if anyone wants screens I have... some from earlier tests.

    Main purpose of these tests was to find what works best while remaining easy to perform <- this is the main goal of all of my tests and essentially this whole guide. After playing bit with some other possible builds I just found they complicate rotation too much for minimal gains. If anyone doesnt mind going crazy, feel free to switch to asylum bow with blackrose bow and rotation about buffing magnum shot (and snipe).

    Now about these simple tests and builds:
    1. Rele, Lokke, Velidreth, VMA Bow (on 14s rot) and Master Bow (on 10s rot).
    2. 6k penetration always
    3. Always absolute melee range - with range there is gain to dmg from bow abilities, but loss of access to trap (unless you like to move a lot or use tzogvin which is worse than using lokke). On class like Necro/Sorc its also dps loss the further you are.
    4. Parse food

    Warden rotation with a twist
    Hail (or Barrage), Poison Injection, Consuming Trap -> Swap
    Sub assault + 2 skills -> Sub assault + 2 skills -> If using Hail (Sub assault + 2 skills) -> Sub assault - Swap

    - Netch, Trap and Bear casted when possible (on frontbar, without breaking sub assault order)
    - Spammable used Cutting Dive, this is where the twist comes. Everytime off balance is triggered (by you, teammates or automatically on trial dummy) cutting dive replaces every skill but Hail/Barrage and Poison Injection. Not sure if this is the optimal way or if more/less skills should be replaced. Basically it means spamming the bird until hail/barrage and PI need recasting, then swap back to finish spamming the rest of off balance duration.
    - Caveat of snipe rotation and possible reason for it underperforming is that I simply replaced cutting div with it which includes the loss of the whole off balance mechanic where Cutting Dive deals more damage than snipe. More testing would be needed to find optimal way, but someone else has to do it.

    Necro rotation
    Hail (or Barrage), Poison Injection, Consuming Trap -> Swap
    Blastbones + 2 skills -> Blastbones + 2 skills -> If using Hail (Blastbones + 2 skills) -> Blastbones - Swap

    - 14s rotation on Necro easily allows with (with no or minimal dps loss) to recast Archer, Trap and Siphon at static intervals
    - Siphon is out of GCD this patch, which means its not counted among the skills in rotation and introduces very annoying way to use it - anytime. So while you perform your usual light attack, skill rotation somewhere there tap the stupid siphon skill without breaking or slowing down. If it doesnt get latched, just keep doing it. Simplest way for me was to basically tap it after every skill until it latches (so La -> skill -> 1s cooldown starts -> Siphon -> 1s cooldown ends -> La - skill)
    - During Snipe rotation I just replaced spammable (venom skull) with Snipe, without changing anything else. Fact that channeling snipe blocks on top of the usual (potion drinking, synergy pressing) also siphon casting did cause me some issue.

    Sorc rotation
    Didnt dive into stam sorc as much as I should, but no time anymore.
    Rotation mimics what I would use on nightblade for example.
    Hail (or Barrage), Poison Injection -> Swap
    Barbed Trap, Consuming Trap, Hurricane, Spammables until out

    - Use bound armaments and cast them every 4 skills, recast when needed
    - Using clanfear is possible, it will result in more dps too.
    - Spammable used was Silver Shards (physical, instant hit, good passive, cleave)
    - Snipe rotation just replaced silver shards with lethal arrow
    PC | EU | AD
  • sindalstar
    sindalstar
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    Can I just say, thank you for providing this consistently. It's a blessing to have the facts laid out. Especially for a 'non norm' bow bow class like my templar. I would try out the warden side for all the delicious goodies they got the recent patch, but I'm commited now. Plus my current warden's a healer and I don't want to make 'another' warden.

    •It's a pity that lightweight trap isn't worth it anymore. I'll have to find something to replace it with.
    •Tzog's is back in style? Thank goodness I kept mine.
    Edited by sindalstar on October 26, 2019 10:18AM
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