Nerfs making newer vet content/game mechanics less accessible to the masses.

bludy · October 2019

It appears to me that in Vet mode the latest dungeons, Black rose prison and all but the Craglorn trials were already out of the reach of probably the vast majority of the PVE player base. (When I say this, from my experience I guess the majority of players cannot hit 30K DPS and probably even struggle to hit 25k)
Now with the latest nerfs this content is even further out of reach. Surely the devs want people to experience vet content and the mechanics that content brings into play? I mean, whats the point in designing interesting and challenging mechanics if the vast majority of players cannot experience it?
I'm sure there is not a magic bullet to resolve this issue, but hitting the DPS and sustainability of all DPSers simply means there are less people who can run vet content, and hence who can enjoy the actual game mechanics. (Lets face it, normal content doesn't really have mechanics, its just pew pew). I personally believe there should be Hardmode available from the start of all the dungeons/trials, to keep the top end players challenged, but Vet content needs to be a more accessible to the larger player base, not less, because it is in the games interest that more people enjoy and encounter the true mechanics of the game.
FYI on my StamDK I could hit 40k 6m solo parse, and was enjoying progressing through vet trials, now I'm hitting 32k and some of those trials are no longer accessible, at least until I figure out how to get back up. I never got past the 3rd round of vet BRP, so I have never seen all the BRP mechanics, I am just not good enough.

leepalmer95 · October 2019

Well that content is all super end game and isn't really mean't to be doable by people who haven't put in the effort to get to that stage.

If you want to be able to do the actual end game pve of the game then become good enough to do them.

UrbanMonk · October 2019

To QUote you -

bludy wrote: »

When I say this, from my experience I guess the majority of players cannot hit 30K DPS and probably even struggle to hit 25k.
whats the point in designing interesting and challenging mechanics if the vast majority of players cannot experience it?

When this "Majority of Player base Git Gud" they can go ahead and experience it.

As of this patch 50-60k on a decent player is not hard to get even with All the nerfs, and if you can't get even that then...Read Above.

russelmmendoza · October 2019

Dang it, I cant even reach 20k dps now.

I am so screwed, tyvm zos.

Darkenarlol · October 2019

bludy wrote: »

whats the point in designing interesting and challenging mechanics if the vast majority of players cannot experience it?

can a vast majority experience the cntent? sure they can

can they accopmlish it successfully? most likely nope

what is the point to create challenging content if

everybody (casuals, RPers etc) can complete it?

challenging content must be challenging imo

Huyen · October 2019

UrbanMonk wrote: »

To QUote you -

bludy wrote: »

When I say this, from my experience I guess the majority of players cannot hit 30K DPS and probably even struggle to hit 25k.
whats the point in designing interesting and challenging mechanics if the vast majority of players cannot experience it?

When this "Majority of Player base Git Gud" they can go ahead and experience it.

As of this patch 50-60k on a decent player is not hard to get even with All the nerfs, and if you can't get even that then...Read Above.

Your post doesnt make sense. If you compare a skilled player on several classes, you will see huge differences. Take a nightblade, warden and templar for example. Templar so far (even while I'm leveling one) has a far easier job doing dps then a warden, if you compare the magicka part. Meanwhile, a Nightblade and Warden still excell to some point on the stamina part.

If you take in account as well, that the majority of the players cant weave attacks very well (wheter it be inability, lag or otherwise) the comment of Git Gud is totally out of line.

The biggest problem of online gaming (and most games that is) is the fact that they think every player is the same skillwise, wich just isnt the case. We cant all be a pro-gamer.

The biggest challenge in life isnt becomming the best there is, but to help those who cant achieve it on their own.

Saint_Bud · October 2019

Sorry, but if a person cant hit 30k, vet content isnt the right place for him/her. For this there is a normal mode. And to vmol, 30-35k dps was very good when the raid were released.

IwakuraLain42 · October 2019

Your big fallacy is assuming that ZOS cares about midcore players. They don’t. The only thing they care about are Questers, PvP and endgame players (preferably playing on PC/NA). Everything else doesn’t matter.

Huyen · October 2019

Saint_Bud wrote: »

Sorry, but if a person cant hit 30k, vet content isnt the right place for him/her. For this there is a normal mode. And to vmol, 30-35k dps was very good when the raid were released.

30 - 35k was good enough back then. But these days everyone wants to steamroll every bit of content there is out there.

FierceSam · October 2019

Saint_Bud wrote: »

Sorry, but if a person cant hit 30k, vet content isnt the right place for him/her. For this there is a normal mode. And to vmol, 30-35k dps was very good when the raid were released.

Well that is just balls.

You can do vet FG1 solo with way less DPS if you know your build and you know the mechanics. You can do vMA very successfully with <30k DPS if you know what you’re doing and high DPS won’t save you from a load of pain if you don’t. Obviously you need more DPS to deal with harder vet content. But I n most cases the real difference between Normal and Vet is not DPS, it’s an ability to deal with more mechanics.

High DPS is not a requirement to deal with the vast majority of mechanics, it’s a short cut to avoid the mechanics.

Burning, say, the Planar Inhibitor in WGT to avoid the pinion mechanic should not be the way to beat this boss (although it’s easier than trying to explain how the pinion aggro ping pong thing works). However, with >30k DPS it’s the obvious route for everyone. So much so that no PUG groups even seem to bother with the mechanic any more.

We did vRoM yesterday and it was just as challenging and just as satisfying as it was last week.

ccfeeling · October 2019

Dev don't care

UrbanMonk · October 2019

Huyen wrote: »

UrbanMonk wrote: »

To QUote you -

bludy wrote: »

When I say this, from my experience I guess the majority of players cannot hit 30K DPS and probably even struggle to hit 25k.
whats the point in designing interesting and challenging mechanics if the vast majority of players cannot experience it?

When this "Majority of Player base Git Gud" they can go ahead and experience it.

As of this patch 50-60k on a decent player is not hard to get even with All the nerfs, and if you can't get even that then...Read Above.

Your post doesnt make sense. If you compare a skilled player on several classes, you will see huge differences. Take a nightblade, warden and templar for example. Templar so far (even while I'm leveling one) has a far easier job doing dps then a warden, if you compare the magicka part. Meanwhile, a Nightblade and Warden still excell to some point on the stamina part.

If you take in account as well, that the majority of the players cant weave attacks very well (wheter it be inability, lag or otherwise) the comment of Git Gud is totally out of line.

The biggest problem of online gaming (and most games that is) is the fact that they think every player is the same skillwise, wich just isnt the case. We cant all be a pro-gamer.

The biggest challenge in life isnt becomming the best there is, but to help those who cant achieve it on their own.

1.

Your post doesnt make sense. If you compare a skilled player on several classes, you will see huge differences. Take a nightblade, warden and templar for example. Templar so far (even while I'm leveling one) has a far easier job doing dps then a warden, if you compare the magicka part. Meanwhile, a Nightblade and Warden still excell to some point on the stamina part.

No one is comparing here DPS disparity between classes. The OP is about Veteran Content being available to the Masses even with Lower DPS. So next time before you jump in, please read the OP and understand what the discussion is about.
2.

If you take in account as well, that the majority of the players cant weave attacks very well (wheter it be inability, lag or otherwise) the comment of Git Gud is totally out of line.

Once again, discussion is not about why ( as you mentioned in your comment) people can't get better number, but if with lower numbers they should be able to do vet content.
3.

The biggest problem of online gaming (and most games that is) is the fact that they think every player is the same skillwise, wich just isnt the case. We cant all be a pro-gamer.

- No one is contesting what you said and ZOS with lowering ceiling and raising floor has clearly shown that. Although their attempt has failed miserably. And if you are not pro gamer then Why would you attempt to do soemthing beyond your skill level. I can Run, but should I go for Olympics? No I can't unless I get Git Gud and reach the same level as other competing.
4.

The biggest challenge in life isnt becomming the best there is, but to help those who cant achieve it on their own.

- That's why their are progression groups and training runs in some Raid Guilds. You join them and Git-Gud. Or else there are always Carry Runs available. Feel free to use them. You get helped clearing content, carrying team gets helped getting richer.

Huyen · October 2019

UrbanMonk wrote: »

Huyen wrote: »

UrbanMonk wrote: »

To QUote you -

bludy wrote: »

When I say this, from my experience I guess the majority of players cannot hit 30K DPS and probably even struggle to hit 25k.
whats the point in designing interesting and challenging mechanics if the vast majority of players cannot experience it?

When this "Majority of Player base Git Gud" they can go ahead and experience it.

As of this patch 50-60k on a decent player is not hard to get even with All the nerfs, and if you can't get even that then...Read Above.

Your post doesnt make sense. If you compare a skilled player on several classes, you will see huge differences. Take a nightblade, warden and templar for example. Templar so far (even while I'm leveling one) has a far easier job doing dps then a warden, if you compare the magicka part. Meanwhile, a Nightblade and Warden still excell to some point on the stamina part.

If you take in account as well, that the majority of the players cant weave attacks very well (wheter it be inability, lag or otherwise) the comment of Git Gud is totally out of line.

The biggest problem of online gaming (and most games that is) is the fact that they think every player is the same skillwise, wich just isnt the case. We cant all be a pro-gamer.

The biggest challenge in life isnt becomming the best there is, but to help those who cant achieve it on their own.

1.
Your post doesnt make sense. If you compare a skilled player on several classes, you will see huge differences. Take a nightblade, warden and templar for example. Templar so far (even while I'm leveling one) has a far easier job doing dps then a warden, if you compare the magicka part. Meanwhile, a Nightblade and Warden still excell to some point on the stamina part.
No one is comparing here DPS disparity between classes. The OP is about Veteran Content being available to the Masses even with Lower DPS. So next time before you jump in, please read the OP and understand what the discussion is about.
2.
If you take in account as well, that the majority of the players cant weave attacks very well (wheter it be inability, lag or otherwise) the comment of Git Gud is totally out of line.
Once again, discussion is not about why ( as you mentioned in your comment) people can't get better number, but if with lower numbers they should be able to do vet content.
3.
The biggest problem of online gaming (and most games that is) is the fact that they think every player is the same skillwise, wich just isnt the case. We cant all be a pro-gamer.
- No one is contesting what you said and ZOS with lowering ceiling and raising floor has clearly shown that. Although their attempt has failed miserably. And if you are not pro gamer then Why would you attempt to do soemthing beyond your skill level. I can Run, but should I go for Olympics? No I can't unless I get Git Gud and reach the same level as other competing.
4.
The biggest challenge in life isnt becomming the best there is, but to help those who cant achieve it on their own.
- That's why their are progression groups and training runs in some Raid Guilds. You join them and Git-Gud. Or else there are always Carry Runs available. Feel free to use them. You get helped clearing content, carrying team gets helped getting richer.

Git Gud is out of the question if classes arent capable of preforming the same on all content. The differences (agreed that they are mostly caused by inability of ZoS to balance them) is the biggest bottleneck for players. If I prefer to play a warden, then I should be able to preform just as good as say a Dragonknight. Wich we cant at this moment. Git Gud is in line, once everything is balanced sufficiently. So far that hasnt been done, so you cant decide wheter people are good enough just based on skills. There are a huge number of unknowns currently.

UrbanMonk · October 2019

Huyen wrote: »

Git Gud is out of the question if classes arent capable of preforming the same on all content. The differences (agreed that they are mostly caused by inability of ZoS to balance them) is the biggest bottleneck for players. If I prefer to play a warden, then I should be able to preform just as good as say a Dragonknight. Wich we cant at this moment. Git Gud is in line, once everything is balanced sufficiently. So far that hasnt been done, so you cant decide wheter people are good enough just based on skills. There are a huge number of unknowns currently.

For Molag's Balls sake, stop comparing class DPS. It's another matter on it's own. Here it's about Player XYZ- doing Low DPS on XYZ Class and expecting to do end game Veteran content.

JonnytheKing · October 2019

i dont want to get better so zos u better make things easyer for me , is all im hearing

Sebar80 · October 2019

Game is a free time hobby not a job so comments about getting good are not completly valid. There is a difference bewteen strugling but completing, not being able to do it at all and getting unchained as far as BRP goes. The balance is extremly important. Developers should not alienate or exclude large portions of playerbase from the content but at the same time should not give unchained for free on launch.

Almost any other mmo there is a clear progression line content gets easier over time and what once was out of reach even for casual will be one day within his reach. Of course it may be content no longer relevant to end game comunity but said casual will have his own progression.

Some here advocating for fungal grotto to be as relevant as 5 years ago or that people should struggle with 4 year old trial same as people who made world first clear. Do you really say vmol today should only be achievable by equivalent of people who did it back than?? You know it was the best of the best than?

If so called casuals will quite, game without the players will be dead very soon despite few fanboys preaching for its greatnes.

Older content should by all means get easier over time to allow more and more players to experiance it.
Level cap does not change in eso so the only way for people to advance is by slow inflation of dps, older content is make easier without chaning it and new content is added to keep end game and middle engaged. In past cps were responible for this but for long now we are stuck with 810 and foe good reqsons. Now it is the hands of developers to make small adjustments to power of the players to make them feel like they progress even if they dont get a lot better to keep engagment and excitement high, bussines 101. Instead we have wild swings from left to right when any progress made is being decimated in the whim and most of the middle is crushed so much they actually went backwards.

Any progression groups working and struggling with their first clears will be set back so badly i would be surprised to see that many of them survives. There is zero motivation for them, motivation would be to clear maybe get some achivments if they are good enugj and than move to the next challange which is more difficult than previouse. Instead some of you ofer to them fungal I as alternative.

Sadly for you ESO is leaking players badly, since april this year, according to steam charts. 40% loss is no small thing even if not all is related to bad balancing decisions. And this new patch has yet to have its own impact. Soon enough we may be back to 2016 levels, new players come and dont stay old players leave this is not sustainable level. Once ZOS will see it is not sustainable they will pull the plug quicker than you cheer them on the forum foe doing soo.

I love Elder scrolls as the concept and ESO for what it was, but i see that combat devs are some random people without the concept or idea and to proude to listen. If they had any competency or concept in mind they would not buff st dots in one patch to nerf them for more than these were buffed in the next.
This is no long term vision these are rendom swings

Rungar · October 2019

eso has been leaking players for a long time it was just replacing them at a faster rate. For instance somewhere around 3+ million ( of 13 million..) people have eso on steam but the most concurrent ever was ~33k. That indicates good sales but low player retention or very casual/ play or both ( 1% concurrently active at the best of times, now its about 0.5% concurrently active. )

You cant just go by the last 5 months. There is a cycle to buying the game, doing all the single player content and a few base dungeons and then moving on (inaccessible endgame) which takes a while to realize itself. This makes total sense if most of the sales were in 2017-2018.

if you ask me , many were waiting for a real combat fix but all that came was sideshow nerfs that didnt improve anything.

srfrogg23 · October 2019

I don't think that the vet mode dlc content is meant to be burned through by all players on day 1 and forgotten. It's more like it's supposed to be a long term goal, at least until the next dlc comes out.

BlueRaven · October 2019

Less players doing high end content means there will probably be less of that content produced.

This is probably why there was no trial or arena released with Dragonhold.

So the “get good” crowd is just hurting themselves.

Rungar · October 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

Less players doing high end content means there will probably be less of that content produced.

This is probably why there was no trial or arena released with Dragonhold.

So the “get good” crowd is just hurting themselves.

exactly. Everything has a cost.

Edziu · October 2019

how funny it is when people defend these nerfs etc while saying exp players doing endgame wont see to much tot hese nerf because fo their adapting

guess what now
average player if have problem to reach even minimum dps for vet content and is capable of doing it at minimum but atleast doing this he still isnt good enough to adapt to that drastic changes, nerfs every patch....

even endgame players are burning out after adapting every new patch after their progress of learning their class is getting reverted to starting point - re-learn your class again from basics because of these beautifull changes...

when I was playign this game with guild and friends from early state of this game...I can say noone is playing this game anymore because of changes

for some their beloved classes, build got just rekt to the ground and so they stopped playing this because their way to enjoy this game got gutted

for some it was another nonsense with tha ofet changing meta after nerfing sets, some spent milions of gold to do their role in content the best just to get their sets nerfed into uselesness, so again, not fun to farm specially tons of gold for gear which is going to be nerfed into uselesness

and for the rest at end...it was jsut everything in overall, they all got sick of just incompetence of devs with menaging their game and balance

most of my friends and guildies or stopped playing games at all on that hard lvl and just started playing casually not caring for anything anymore in them or just found way better games...not only because these games are better but devs are much better and know what to do with their own game than like zos

srfrogg23 · October 2019

Rungar wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Less players doing high end content means there will probably be less of that content produced.

This is probably why there was no trial or arena released with Dragonhold.

So the “get good” crowd is just hurting themselves.

exactly. Everything has a cost.

I don't think that is the case. They've been on a pretty steady quarterly content production rhythm for about 3 years now. There is always some insanely difficult content included in that cycle.

If the devs were worried about making sure that content saw maximum participation, they would make it easier to get into. They have that power.

Sebar80 · October 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I don't think that the vet mode dlc content is meant to be burned through by all players on day 1 and forgotten. It's more like it's supposed to be a long term goal, at least until the next dlc comes out.

This is why you have normal, vet, vet hm, no death, speed hm achivments and than latter down the line motif grind.

There will be some players doing triple achivment on day one and this is good and there are players who will strugle to bridge the gap between normal and vet and it is good as well. There has to be however a power creep of sort to allow this struggling to make that transition and you cannot expect them to get good, maybe they can only play 30min a day or maybe there is another reason but if they are not going to progress organically they will leave. The alternative for them preached often on this forum is to play fungal grotto over and over because it was relevant once.

SoLooney · October 2019

People are still hitting over 80k on most classes on the raid dummy, there is really no excuse not to hit over 30k on any respective class on a 3mil dummy

TheDarkShadow · October 2019

The majority players can still experience all the content they bought with 25k-30k dps (on 6mil dummy), in normal mode. Vet mode is for people who enjoy challenge.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · October 2019

Do normal versions of the dungeons/trials.

Edziu · October 2019

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

The majority players can still experience all the content they bought with 25k-30k dps (on 6mil dummy), in normal mode. Vet mode is for people who enjoy challenge.

and also BDSM

do Im supposed to still enjoy doing challenging content after I got nerfed?

I remember how I was progressing wrathstone dungs with friends, it was fine, if not bugged then it was enjoyable to progress and finally done this on hm

and now after big nerfs to us even from day of release wrathstone, Im supposed to still enjoy not even more challenging contant but definitely harder and longer now than I was progressng this 1st time?

it was challenging when it was released, now we have got nerfed and content like this is not challenging more, its more annyoing because its still literally same content but harder and much longer because of nerf to us destroying our builds and forcing to relearn this game again and or switch to other classes to which at all we need to learn again from basics...

it is not fun, not challenging, not enjoyable...it is annying, resetting our progress back to big nothing and so taking away our time spent to learn these build making it as wasted time and taking away willing to replay same content which we was playing, farming but now it is taking much longer..so what is point of this

Cirantille · October 2019

Too much effort for my lazy butt

srfrogg23 · October 2019

Sebar80 wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I don't think that the vet mode dlc content is meant to be burned through by all players on day 1 and forgotten. It's more like it's supposed to be a long term goal, at least until the next dlc comes out.

This is why you have normal, vet, vet hm, no death, speed hm achivments and than latter down the line motif grind.

There will be some players doing triple achivment on day one and this is good and there are players who will strugle to bridge the gap between normal and vet and it is good as well. There has to be however a power creep of sort to allow this struggling to make that transition and you cannot expect them to get good, maybe they can only play 30min a day or maybe there is another reason but if they are not going to progress organically they will leave. The alternative for them preached often on this forum is to play fungal grotto over and over because it was relevant once.

They can still progress "organically" (not sure what you mean by that). It is just going to take some people longer than others. There's also an interest in making content that is challenging and rewarding as a long term goal.

Sure, some people might "leave", because MMOs are video games and not an all-encompassing form of entertainment. It's not unusual for people to bounce around between multiple MMO subscriptions as new content is released by different companies.

For the most part, I think the devs have embraced this reality. Normal is the "everyone gets to see the content" mode. The higher difficulties are for the gaming masochists and swag chasers.

Everyone else will either plug away at it, find other content to occupy themselves with, or play something else until the next big content release.

UrbanMonk · October 2019

Sebar80 wrote: »

Older content should by all means get easier over time to allow more and more players to experiance it.

Any progression groups working and struggling with their first clears will be set back so badly i would be surprised to see that many of them survives.

1. Older content does get easier, just not for inexperienced players. Everyone is free to experience it but that does not mean new players should be able to skip progression.

2. When vMoL was launched in 2016, it took about 3 months before 1st group got the clear. Many of the progression groups took another 2-3 months to get the clear. And it was done with the gear and skills that compared to today are considered TRASH. So many Buffs/ Debuffs which are common these days did not exist back then. And if you look today, all the new trials after vMOL were cleared on the Launch day and rest many got their 1st clear within a week. So i t's not just the Old content but even the new one has become easier. But do you ask why? vMoL forced people to git gud and get out of the mindset that was Stack and Burn before. And people did. Those who still do, manage to do the end game content and get all achievements, those who can't well...Here I offer them FG1.

As far as the balance goes, it's not a linear change but depends upon skill/ gear and everything at a perticualar time. In no way I'm advocating that currently game is balanced or the way devs has been handling it for past few patches. Those who will adapt and move on will continue, those who don't will be left behind or eventually will leave the game.

Yes, the player retention is bad here and eventually probable the game will die, or somethign new will replace it. But that is NO EXCUSE to start giving handouts to players who do not want to or are not capable of putting in effort to achieve difficult tasks.

Dr_Ganknstein · October 2019

Wrong. Nerfs is the new content