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Bound Armaments doing significantly more sustained damage than Relentless Focus in PTS
susmitds
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These are the tooltips on brand new characters with zero CP, no gear, no passives.
At max proc, both skills do very similar damage.
However, Bound Armaments does everything else better than Relentless Focus.
And no, I am not calling for a Bound Armaments nerf. Just pointing out the skill is essentially a better version of Relentless Focus, while Relentless Focus was "standardized because it was doing too much".
Edit: Removed the DoT part after rechecking. Originally in PTS 1, the tooltip was increasing in value with Thaum (did not test actual damage then), but it is no longer the case.
Edited by susmitds on October 15, 2019 4:31PM At max proc, both skills do very similar damage.
However, Bound Armaments does everything else better than Relentless Focus.
- Bound Armaments takes 4 LAs to build up, compared to the 5 LAs to build up of Relentless Focus, essentially making it a 4 sec burst skill compared to Relentless Focus, which is a 5 sec burst skill. This here alone makes Bound Armaments do 20% more sustained damage in a PvE scenario than Relentless Focus.
- Bound Armaments has a 40 second duration, compared to the 30 sec of Relentless Focus (and 20 sec of Merciless Resolve). Thanks to this, Bound Armaments has 9 maximum procs per cast compared to 5 maximum procs per cast of Relentless Focus and 3 maximum procs per cast of Merciless Resolve. This is a massive boost for potential damage.
- Bound Armaments has damage bonuses that doesn't fall off after using the proc unlike the mitigation bonus of Relentless Focus.
- Relentless Focus had damage and sustain bonuses removed as apparently it was making the skill overloaded, giving it a totally useless heal.
And no, I am not calling for a Bound Armaments nerf. Just pointing out the skill is essentially a better version of Relentless Focus, while Relentless Focus was "standardized because it was doing too much".
Edit: Removed the DoT part after rechecking. Originally in PTS 1, the tooltip was increasing in value with Thaum (did not test actual damage then), but it is no longer the case.
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WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It makes sense that Bound Armaments would do more sustained DPS, the shorter buildup means that it consumes 1/4 of GCD's vs the 1/5 of Relentless Focus. If you look at damage per cast and burst potential Relentless has the advantage. Also being treated as DoT damage is a disadvantage in Update 24, since optimal CP spreads are looking to have around 0-28 points in Thaumaturge and 66-72 points in Master at Arms.5 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »It makes sense that Bound Armaments would do more sustained DPS, the shorter buildup means that it consumes 1/4 of GCD's vs the 1/5 of Relentless Focus. If you look at damage per cast and burst potential Relentless has the advantage. Also being treated as DoT damage is a disadvantage in Update 24, since optimal CP spreads are looking to have around 0-28 points in Thaumaturge and 66-72 points in Master at Arms.
False info, both are around 1500 per proc cast. Relentless does 2-3% higher damage only. It should do at least 20% higher damage, given its 20% more required stacks and time.
Also, it is still more beneficial for stamsorc to invest more in DoT CP as more than 60% of their damage in PTS PvE rotation in DoT.8 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The passives for slotting the skills is also not that balanced if compared to eachother.
PC EU
PvP only2 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭These are the tooltips on brand new characters with zero CP, no gear, no passives.
At max proc, both skills do very similar damage.
However, Bound Armaments does everything else better than Relentless Focus.- Bound Armaments takes 4 LAs to build up, compared to the 5 LAs to build up of Relentless Focus, essentially making it a 4 sec burst skill compared to Relentless Focus, which is a 5 sec burst skill. This here alone makes Bound Armaments do 20% more sustained damage in a PvE scenario than Relentless Focus.
- Bound Armaments has a 40 second duration, compared to the 30 sec of Relentless Focus (and 20 sec of Merciless Resolve). Thanks to this, Bound Armaments has 9 maximum procs per cast compared to 5 maximum procs per cast of Relentless Focus and 3 maximum procs per cast of Merciless Resolve. This is a massive boost for potential damage.
- For strictly PvE, the fact that it is a DoT burst skill, makes it better as it will allow stamsorc invest much more in DoT CP and not split it up between Direct damage and DoT CP.
- Bound Armaments has damage bonuses that doesn't fall off after using the proc unlike the mitigation bonus of Relentless Focus.
- Relentless Focus had damage and sustain bonuses removed as apparently it was making the skill overloaded, giving it a totally useless heal.
And no, I am not calling for a Bound Armaments nerf. Just pointing out the skill is essentially a better version of Relentless Focus, while Relentless Focus was "standardized because it was doing too much".
Bound Armaments isn't actually a "DoT" though. It scales with Master-at-Arms.
In a raid parse they do about the same amount of damage (~7-8k). I've done parses where Bound Armaments is higher (up to ~10k), because it does do more damage than Executioner (in my tests) down to about ~21% HP. However, it's debatable whether or not spending the extra GCD recasting the buff is actually worth it versus the extra cast of an execute.
Are you actually seeing Bound Armaments doing "significantly more sustained damage" in parses or are you just extrapolating that from tooltip values?
Given roughly the same build/CP loadout on a stamblade/stamsorc, Assassin's Scourge has roughly an 8% higher tooltip for me. And in parses I see Bound Armaments maxing out around ~75k (given all 4 hits crit) given I swap entirely to Execution and around ~85k if I carry on casting it down to ~21% (due to Bloodthirsty scaling). Assassin's Scourge consistently crits for 85-90k+ throughout the parse, and of course the execute question is clearer on a stamblade where you will swap to Killer's Blade at exactly 25% and stop proccing the bow.
Regardless, not sure that these direct skill comparisons are really all that useful. Seems to be how ESO has got itself into its current predicament. Have to consider the classes as a whole, not just simple 1:1 skill comparisons.Edited by LiquidPony on October 15, 2019 7:11AM10 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tbh. I just find this to be hilarious at this point. Grim focus was nerfed in Elsweyr because apparently it was overloaded. A lot of NB skills in fact got wrecked back then.
#RedundancyRemoval - term that ZOS came up with...
And what we got now ?
- Turn evil: Mass Histeria on steroids and superior in every way...
- Bound Armaments: a copy-paste of a Grim Focud (a NB class identity skill btw) "copied" to another class and buffed to be a different class identity skill...
- Flying Blade - basically ambush available for every class...
Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that Bound Armements should be nerfed or something. I simply think that it is way to similar in terms of gameplay & class "feel" to be an identity skill. Different visual is not enough. It at least should have different proc condition / stack accumulation mechanics.
I just find it wierd that ZOS is simply copying class skills and adds them so they are available for every class or other classes. I mean what is the point of playing NB ? Cloak ? Well you have invisiblty pots, Turn Evil, Flying Blade and Bound Armements on sorc...
I mean the same thing would happened if ZOS would add for example "teleport" or "blink" skill to mages guild that would basically be streak, but better. There would be less reasons to play as sorc... Imagine seeing templars or dks streaking... Feels wrong...13 -
themaddaedra✭✭✭✭✭
✭LiquidPony wrote: »These are the tooltips on brand new characters with zero CP, no gear, no passives.
At max proc, both skills do very similar damage.
However, Bound Armaments does everything else better than Relentless Focus.- Bound Armaments takes 4 LAs to build up, compared to the 5 LAs to build up of Relentless Focus, essentially making it a 4 sec burst skill compared to Relentless Focus, which is a 5 sec burst skill. This here alone makes Bound Armaments do 20% more sustained damage in a PvE scenario than Relentless Focus.
- Bound Armaments has a 40 second duration, compared to the 30 sec of Relentless Focus (and 20 sec of Merciless Resolve). Thanks to this, Bound Armaments has 9 maximum procs per cast compared to 5 maximum procs per cast of Relentless Focus and 3 maximum procs per cast of Merciless Resolve. This is a massive boost for potential damage.
- For strictly PvE, the fact that it is a DoT burst skill, makes it better as it will allow stamsorc invest much more in DoT CP and not split it up between Direct damage and DoT CP.
- Bound Armaments has damage bonuses that doesn't fall off after using the proc unlike the mitigation bonus of Relentless Focus.
- Relentless Focus had damage and sustain bonuses removed as apparently it was making the skill overloaded, giving it a totally useless heal.
And no, I am not calling for a Bound Armaments nerf. Just pointing out the skill is essentially a better version of Relentless Focus, while Relentless Focus was "standardized because it was doing too much".
Are you actually seeing Bound Armaments doing "significantly more sustained damage" in parses or are you just extrapolating that from tooltip values?
^ this. First thing to ever know in this game is that a tooltip doesn't mean a single [snip].
[Edited for Profanity]Edited by ZOS_Bill on October 16, 2019 5:28PMPC|EU2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »It makes sense that Bound Armaments would do more sustained DPS, the shorter buildup means that it consumes 1/4 of GCD's vs the 1/5 of Relentless Focus. If you look at damage per cast and burst potential Relentless has the advantage. Also being treated as DoT damage is a disadvantage in Update 24, since optimal CP spreads are looking to have around 0-28 points in Thaumaturge and 66-72 points in Master at Arms.
False info, both are around 1500 per proc cast. Relentless does 2-3% higher damage only. It should do at least 20% higher damage, given its 20% more required stacks and time.
Also, it is still more beneficial for stamsorc to invest more in DoT CP as more than 60% of their damage in PTS PvE rotation in DoT.
How is that "False info" I'm getting it from your screenshots. Last time I checked 4 X 370 < 1527. If they were balanced to give the same sustained DPS then Relentless would be obviously superior because it requires fewer skill casts. In its current state it's hard to say which is a better skill, which seems balanced.
I did a little more digging on optimal stam sorc rotations for PTS, and the best I've seen was 91.6k and had over 50% direct damage. So you're right about Stam Sorc having higher than typical investment in Thaum, but I wouldn't say it's more than Master at Arms. I also just tested and found that this debate is irrelevant because Bound Armaments is considered direct damage, so it scales with Master at Arms just like Relentless Focus.Edited by WrathOfInnos on October 15, 2019 7:50AM2 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@LiquidPony , by doing more sustained damage, I mean Bound Armaments does 2% lesser damage going by purely tooltips, yet takes 1 second less to build up.1 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@WrathOfInnos It was scaling with Thaum in Pts 1, when I checked the scaling. Must have changed it.
With the same sustained DPS, Relentless Focus won't be better due to less cast as you will have empty casts every 30 secs instead of 40.2 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@LiquidPony , by doing more sustained damage, I mean Bound Armaments does 2% lesser damage going by purely tooltips, yet takes 1 second less to build up.
Tooltips are irrelevant. Test it.
And it scaled with MaA on 5.2.0 as well, I tested it then too.Edited by LiquidPony on October 15, 2019 10:24AM2 -
SaucyMcSauceface✭✭✭✭If we are looking at sustained dps, surely LiquidPony is right, and the best way to check if it is doing significantly more sustained dps as the title suggests is to provide parses rather than tooltips.1
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ThePedge✭✭✭✭✭Sorc will get cloak next patch to top off the nightblade demolition job that has been ongoing this year.6
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Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Keep in mind NBs have higher DPS than stam sorcs and also grim focus is now a strong defensive skill as well. It’s just different.0 -
Czekoludek✭✭✭✭✭
✭Keep in mind NBs have higher DPS than stam sorcs and also grim focus is now a strong defensive skill as well. It’s just different.
Keep in mind it is not true for stam and mag, also it is strong defensive skill only when you are not firing a bow (so only for PvE tank and in some PvP situations when you want to be more defensive)0 -
ankeor✭✭✭✭✭Keep in mind NBs have higher DPS than stam sorcs and also grim focus is now a strong defensive skill as well. It’s just different.
It is funny that "bound armaments" has max stam bonus which increases overall dps while "relentless focus" has damage mitigation.
Such identity, much immersion. WOW!5 -
robpr✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's kinda hard to compare. Yes, BA need 4 LAs to proc opposed to GF 5. But also GF retain the stacks infinitely even if ability runs out and you can recast it. BA stacks dissapears when timer runs out. Also since BA hits multiple times in one cast I get a feeling it dont cosistently crits because of that. Like every hit got crit chance divided by amount of hits.0 -
nesakinter✭✭✭✭Keep in mind NBs have higher DPS than stam sorcs and also grim focus is now a strong defensive skill as well. It’s just different.
@Vapriko
Actually, this is out of date info. Even on live Stam sorc has significantly higher ST DPS and much much higher AoE DPS than stamblade without BA. Been that away since Elsweyr.Edited by nesakinter on October 15, 2019 1:05PM2 -
Trian94✭✭✭✭Bound armaments is fine as it is currently on pts. Before that it was underperforming greatly and wasn't useful in pvp as it was in pve. Now it can be used in both aspects of the game. I hope they dont change it further.PC EU
Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn1 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nesakinter wrote: »Keep in mind NBs have higher DPS than stam sorcs and also grim focus is now a strong defensive skill as well. It’s just different.
@Vapriko
Actually, this is out of date info. Even on live Stam sorc has significantly higher ST DPS and much much higher AoE DPS than stamblade without BA. Been that away since Elsweyr.
Really, my bad. I didn’t know this was the case. At any rate it seems like the two skills on their own are fine in what they offer uniquely. But I also do agree that stamblade were nerfed way too hard. Just classic ZOS over hit. It sucks because both mag and stambaldes had great identity, ZOS spent a whole patch only adjusting nightblades, ruined both specs In a lot of aspects, and now they gotta waste another patch working on them again when some light adjustments woulda solved everything.1 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Surprise surprise. Skill was balanced, people cried. ZoS saw it and buffed it to quiet them down. Its gonna be nerfed in few patches to maybe even worse state than it was pts week1. But I guess sorcs mains prefer short term big benefits.3 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭I see this as perfectly balanced.
Bound armaments, while bursty, is more consistent than relentless focus.
It's easier to proc (even if it isnt max charge) but it deals less damage in that instant. Good in combination with hurricane and dots that stam sorcs typically have. Spectral Bow is harder to build up but much more bursty. Perfect for doing big burst kills that stamblade do pretty well.1 -
SidraWillowsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Keep in mind NBs have higher DPS than stam sorcs and also grim focus is now a strong defensive skill as well. It’s just different.
No... the class is terrible right now, at least from a PvE DD perspective. Magblade is now a meme class and stamblade is a shadow of its former self (no pun intended). What used to be a glass cannon is now all glass and no cannon.
Mine is currently a pack mule. Every time I log in with her I swear she looks sad. SIDRAAAAAAA RIP2
