Kurat wrote: »

Where are these ppl coming from with the AH threads lately. Leave it alone, trading system works fine the way it is. If you dont like it go play WoW.

What he said.

idk wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Ysbriel wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This is one of the worst ideas concerning guild traders I have ever seen. First of all, no one can price gouge you unless you let them and what is price gouging is really just an opinion. Second of all, there are players who enjoy searching for deals available at secondary trading areas then selling them at a profit at the busier areas. That is good and wise commerce. Shutting it down does not make sense.

Edit: forgot. OP's idea also prevents helping a friend with buying them some gear. It absolutely prevents that. What fool would hold onto the items for a week when the friend would have out leveled the gear.

And lets support the NPC vendor. That NPC selling carrots at such a high price has NPC children to feed. We are just not permitted to see the children for their safety.

If price gouging is just an opinion then why do laws exist that prohibit the practice?

LOL. It is rather absurd to bring in real world laws concerning price gouging since the purpose of those laws are not relevant in ESO.

Just in case you are serious, price gouging laws relate to people raising prices on essential goods and services as a result of a civil emergency. ESO lacks civil emergencies which should be pretty obvious.

I edited out the rest of the comment I quoted since I felt no reason to continue reading after this first sentence.

I'm sorry, but an in-game economy is still an economy. If real laws were irrelevant, the game wouldn't need gold sinks to prevent inflation, or secure trading to prevent fraud

The economic laws of supply and demand do apply in game, but that is not what this line of conversation stepped into. This conversation stated because someone stated if there was no price gouging then why are there laws on the subject.

It is absurd to suggest a real world law dealing the civil emergencies relates to a game where that situation never occurs. So your information is inaccurate in relation to the game. I removed what came after this because it seemed pointless to read past what I quoted.

Yes, this is a game, and there are no real emergencies. But precisely because it IS a game, something that's meant to be enjoyed, other "emergencies" can exist. People are driven away from participating in the economy or in the game as a whole by the sorts of practices that would be considered business as usual, namely item flipping, which is what people mean by price gouging in this thread. No need to bring those emergencies into the conversation.

The health of the game as a whole, for me, is more important than the "play the market" minigame. As I've said before, ESO has to have one of the shallowest, uninteresting economies in any MMO I've tried. It's basically just motifs and tier 10 crafting mats/style mats, with the odd overland set piece after a round of skill revamps, and the ones that are actually good are flipped at insane prices such that many players are simply priced out.

I would much rather have a more dynamic economy than cater to item flippers. I'm sorry, it is what it is.

idk wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Anyone else feel like Traders are like Economic PvP? Those who buy and flip items, and hold a tight grip on item pricing are basically enjoying the game by making it more difficult for others who are looking to obtain items from Traders. In a way, it is almost like minor griefing. I say it that way because a player can always just go out and get the items they need by good ol farming, so it isn't really griefing as no one is truly prevented from getting what they need. But it is a bit annoying that it is permitted to allow such economic manipulation.

/rambling

This is more likely in a central trading system. Harder to hold a tight grip on prices when it is so decentralized.

I play on console. So my options are either use the convenient Traders in Major Cities, which generally inflate their prices because they have the benefit of convenience. Or spend an hour or more traveling around Tamriel to attempt to find an item I am looking for at a reasonable/affordable price. I think for Console, i'd rather the Centralized AH.

Or something completely different, but I double anyone would go for the idea I have for a different type of "AH".

Merchants could be how you sell items. So for example: you want to sell a set piece you got from a World Boss. You sell it to a Merchant, and receive 5,000g*. The set piece is placed on a global market for any other player to then buy for 5,000g. Quite simple, and no way to manipulate it.

*prices may vary based on the quality of the item (green, blue,purple, yellow)

Ysbriel wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This is one of the worst ideas concerning guild traders I have ever seen. First of all, no one can price gouge you unless you let them and what is price gouging is really just an opinion. Second of all, there are players who enjoy searching for deals available at secondary trading areas then selling them at a profit at the busier areas. That is good and wise commerce. Shutting it down does not make sense.

Edit: forgot. OP's idea also prevents helping a friend with buying them some gear. It absolutely prevents that. What fool would hold onto the items for a week when the friend would have out leveled the gear.

And lets support the NPC vendor. That NPC selling carrots at such a high price has NPC children to feed. We are just not permitted to see the children for their safety.

If price gouging is just an opinion then why do laws exist that prohibit the practice?

That also would make the price each vendor sells their items, their opinion but then again. The practice of flipping the practice also screws over the customer who agreed with the better priced opinion. The is no control established whatsoever and the same time you might consider it to be foolish to hold on to items for someone else might be the same time another person’s burden as well to get an item at a good price. There is a difference in between wholesale and retail price. Flipping prices do not fall into that unless you want to tell me your local grocery store buys retail grocery items from the competition to sell it at a higher price. The way the traders work you are also already a supplier for that particular trading guild. If you put it into a trader perspective as well you will have another trader screwing over your business since how acquiring the stall works your guild might had sales but will also require lots of gold in “donations” to make the bid. The lack of set trading controls is unhealthy for the marketplace.

Trading controls do exist though in the current system. To trade in the current system without doing in person or chat spam. You need to be part of a guild that has a trader location. Then you can only list 30 items at a time in set stacks. And you can only be in 5 per account. Those are real limitations on trades.

As for price gouging. What is price gouging in eso? Please define it. There is not a single item that you can find in the guild store that you can not find for free in the game if you make the time to do it. Really when you buy from the guild stores you are doing it to save time and compensate for the sellers time in farming said item. So how do you quantify time and assign a gold value to it that everyone will agree upon? The short answer is really you wont. If you dont like the price of the item. Then let it sit and go farm jt.

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Anyone else feel like Traders are like Economic PvP? Those who buy and flip items, and hold a tight grip on item pricing are basically enjoying the game by making it more difficult for others who are looking to obtain items from Traders. In a way, it is almost like minor griefing. I say it that way because a player can always just go out and get the items they need by good ol farming, so it isn't really griefing as no one is truly prevented from getting what they need. But it is a bit annoying that it is permitted to allow such economic manipulation.

/rambling

You know I feel the same way when I get 10k tel var stones in IC and then get ganked right before the base entrance. Or when I'm working on master angler in cyrodyl and get ganked. Or when I roll into bg to try to get an outfit and it's me vs the two other teams. I get told to learn to play or get gud. I will apply the same here. Learn to trade and here is where I get my revenge. Welcome to my world.

I've mentioned a few times in this thread, i'm on Console. "Trade Gud" basically means spend a hour or more travelling from trader to trader in each zone to find the best prices. It's not about getting good, it is a total time waster without Add-Ons.

Goregrinder wrote: »

What's wi

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Ysbriel wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This is one of the worst ideas concerning guild traders I have ever seen. First of all, no one can price gouge you unless you let them and what is price gouging is really just an opinion. Second of all, there are players who enjoy searching for deals available at secondary trading areas then selling them at a profit at the busier areas. That is good and wise commerce. Shutting it down does not make sense.

Edit: forgot. OP's idea also prevents helping a friend with buying them some gear. It absolutely prevents that. What fool would hold onto the items for a week when the friend would have out leveled the gear.

And lets support the NPC vendor. That NPC selling carrots at such a high price has NPC children to feed. We are just not permitted to see the children for their safety.

If price gouging is just an opinion then why do laws exist that prohibit the practice?

That also would make the price each vendor sells their items, their opinion but then again. The practice of flipping the practice also screws over the customer who agreed with the better priced opinion. The is no control established whatsoever and the same time you might consider it to be foolish to hold on to items for someone else might be the same time another person’s burden as well to get an item at a good price. There is a difference in between wholesale and retail price. Flipping prices do not fall into that unless you want to tell me your local grocery store buys retail grocery items from the competition to sell it at a higher price. The way the traders work you are also already a supplier for that particular trading guild. If you put it into a trader perspective as well you will have another trader screwing over your business since how acquiring the stall works your guild might had sales but will also require lots of gold in “donations” to make the bid. The lack of set trading controls is unhealthy for the marketplace.

Trading controls do exist though in the current system. To trade in the current system without doing in person or chat spam. You need to be part of a guild that has a trader location. Then you can only list 30 items at a time in set stacks. And you can only be in 5 per account. Those are real limitations on trades.

As for price gouging. What is price gouging in eso? Please define it. There is not a single item that you can find in the guild store that you can not find for free in the game if you make the time to do it. Really when you buy from the guild stores you are doing it to save time and compensate for the sellers time in farming said item. So how do you quantify time and assign a gold value to it that everyone will agree upon? The short answer is really you wont. If you dont like the price of the item. Then let it sit and go farm jt.

Totally agree. Calling selling any items in this game at any price “price gauging” is absolutely ridiculous. None of what you can purchase through guild traders is “necessary” and most you can acquire on your own (saying most rather than all as a few things like luxury furnishings are only available for a limited time, although I think all eventually become available again, I’m not sure). And I say this as a relatively new player (started ESO in July), by no means wealthy. There are plenty of furnishings and furnishing materials which I have had to or am in the process of working to afford or acquire directly for myself. Certainly, many people would not sell some items at all if there were price caps, reselling restrictions, or other such nonsense. Such practices only limit supply, create black markets, even make prices higher as now there is either more work or risk to sell, depending on the specifics. It’s basic economics.

idk wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

idk wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Anyone else feel like Traders are like Economic PvP? Those who buy and flip items, and hold a tight grip on item pricing are basically enjoying the game by making it more difficult for others who are looking to obtain items from Traders. In a way, it is almost like minor griefing. I say it that way because a player can always just go out and get the items they need by good ol farming, so it isn't really griefing as no one is truly prevented from getting what they need. But it is a bit annoying that it is permitted to allow such economic manipulation.

/rambling

This is more likely in a central trading system. Harder to hold a tight grip on prices when it is so decentralized.

I play on console. So my options are either use the convenient Traders in Major Cities, which generally inflate their prices because they have the benefit of convenience. Or spend an hour or more traveling around Tamriel to attempt to find an item I am looking for at a reasonable/affordable price. I think for Console, i'd rather the Centralized AH.

Or something completely different, but I double anyone would go for the idea I have for a different type of "AH".

Merchants could be how you sell items. So for example: you want to sell a set piece you got from a World Boss. You sell it to a Merchant, and receive 5,000g*. The set piece is placed on a global market for any other player to then buy for 5,000g. Quite simple, and no way to manipulate it.

*prices may vary based on the quality of the item (green, blue,purple, yellow)

Your example here is incorrect. It is so much easier to manipulate prices with that central trading system. Only one place to look. In my previous game I used to buy up mods and armorings that were priced to low then post them at a higher price. It is much more challenging when there are over a hundred places those items could be listed for sale. Heck, even just looking at the major sites we are still looking at over 20 vendors making it more work than with a central trading system.

We are all entitled to our opinions and you can think it is easier to manipulate a decentralized system if you like. However, your example does not hold water.

So very true! I never had time, money or desire to manipulate markets, but in other MMORPGs it was easy to watch markets through the central trading system / auction house and I enjoyed finding deals and making money through flipping. In ESO it would take much more time and effort than it is worth to me.

idk wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

idk wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Anyone else feel like Traders are like Economic PvP? Those who buy and flip items, and hold a tight grip on item pricing are basically enjoying the game by making it more difficult for others who are looking to obtain items from Traders. In a way, it is almost like minor griefing. I say it that way because a player can always just go out and get the items they need by good ol farming, so it isn't really griefing as no one is truly prevented from getting what they need. But it is a bit annoying that it is permitted to allow such economic manipulation.

/rambling

This is more likely in a central trading system. Harder to hold a tight grip on prices when it is so decentralized.

I play on console. So my options are either use the convenient Traders in Major Cities, which generally inflate their prices because they have the benefit of convenience. Or spend an hour or more traveling around Tamriel to attempt to find an item I am looking for at a reasonable/affordable price. I think for Console, i'd rather the Centralized AH.

Or something completely different, but I double anyone would go for the idea I have for a different type of "AH".

Merchants could be how you sell items. So for example: you want to sell a set piece you got from a World Boss. You sell it to a Merchant, and receive 5,000g*. The set piece is placed on a global market for any other player to then buy for 5,000g. Quite simple, and no way to manipulate it.

*prices may vary based on the quality of the item (green, blue,purple, yellow)

Your example here is incorrect. It is so much easier to manipulate prices with that central trading system. Only one place to look. In my previous game I used to buy up mods and armorings that were priced to low then post them at a higher price. It is much more challenging when there are over a hundred places those items could be listed for sale. Heck, even just looking at the major sites we are still looking at over 20 vendors making it more work than with a central trading system.

We are all entitled to our opinions and you can think it is easier to manipulate a decentralized system if you like. However, your example does not hold water.

There are two sides to that coin.

Yes - in theory when it pertains to a centralized hub you don't have to run around as much to "manipulate" the market (though it can still be done on the PC with addons).

But there is also more supply and demand in a centralized market place since more people will be participating and selling/buying their goods there, which means a vastly greater volume to "manipulate".

Generally speaking - the larger and more free the market is the more difficult it is to control - and global markets are obviously much larger than smaller and more isolated ones. That person is likely referring to consoles anyway and it would far easier to say manipulate a half dozen guild traders in Mournhold than an entire global market connected through a single central hub simply because that market would be immensely larger with far more traffic. The extra foot travel required would be insignificant by comparison.

That is what opponents of an auction house always seem to neglect. They fail to take into account the greater volume of goods that would be exchanged in a centralized market place. It would cost a ton of gold and take a huge amount of effort to manipulate - especially on the long term. Way more difficult than it would be to say "manipulate" these much smaller and prohibitive guild traders. Which is why I've never seen anyone ever able to control the prices of a global auction house - not on any any game I have ever played (and I've played a lot of them). It's a fantasy. The closest I've ever seen it done was on older games when armies of Gold Sellers could dominate a particular farming spot and lock a monopoly on some specific item to sell. And that's not a scenario I see happening on this game.

Jeremy wrote: »

Yes - in theory when it pertains to a centralized hub you don't have to run around as much to "manipulate" the market (though it can still be done on the PC with addons).

I think you vastly overestimate the power of addons. There's no way (I'm aware of) through the API to allow you to purchase from a guild trader unless you're physically at their kiosk or a member of that guild and at a full service banker.

There's something like 210 guild traders in game (not counting Cyrodiil keeps.)

If you want to artificially manipulate the price of Dreugh Wax (for example), you'd need to visit the vast majority of those traders, and buy out their stock. (Now, strictly speaking, to manipulate the price, you don't need to buy everything on the market, once the supply starts to deplete, other opportunists will help you there.) But, you're still left needing to police hundreds of in-game locations to cull out the lower cost items.

As anyone who's spent hours trying to find something specific and bouncing from trader to trader can attest, that's non-trivial.

So, if you want to manipulate the market in ESO in a meaningful way, it's a full time job. It's not impossible, but it requires a significant time investment.

In contrast, in games with unified auction house systems, you can simply stand there, refresh the search, hoover up anything cheaper than the floor you want for a commodity, then relist it at the price you want. And, yes, I've done this before. It's entirely doable, and doesn't make much time.

In a unified auction house, if someone lists a commodity for what it's worth by supply and demand, but you're trying to force the price up, you can simply pick it up.

In ESO, if you clean out all the Dreugh Wax below 20k in Wayrest, and move on to Mournhold, you have no way to stop someone wandering in and listing some more Wax for 8k in Wayrest behind you. And you won't even know, unless someone uploads that data to TTC.

A cabal of 20 to 30 people could probably work together to mess with the market, but that's a lot of people and effort for something that the market will fully recover from within days.