Potato_Salad wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Here’s a nice list for you:

Assassination:

Death stroke - remove cast time and silence, add maj defile, stuns with 120ult or more

Teleport strike - ambush - add a 40% snare OR a stun. Remove empower if need be

Mark target - remove the obvious visual effect to make it useful

Grim focus - remove heal and damage mitigation and add minor berserk. Each morph adds maj brutality and sorcery as to allow more pot options

Shadow:

Veiled strike - sneak movement applies to both morphs and each morph gets maj fracture/breach respectively

Refreshing path - applies a synergy

Aspect of terror - add a snare and a debuff (like minor maim) to make the skill more unique

Shade - keep as of live

Siphoning:

Strife - increase dmg

Agony - 1 morph changed to an instant burst heal because every other class has one

Cripple - re-add maj expedition

Plz read this

@ZOS_Gilliam
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Ty

Death stroke only needs its stun back at 70ult instead of silence and it would be fine

Grim focus needs to lose the stupid delay and the projectile needs to be faster for magblades to actually hit something

Teleport strike needs to be either offGCD and lose all its damage or needs to lose the charge up time before the leap, currently the skill is too slow, too telegraphed and too clunky to be good.

Mass Hysteria is fine as a stun, they could make the other morph as a sort of delayed fear to work on the next GCD so youd have the option to not waste a GCD for a stun when going for a combo.

Everything else is fine.
Your buffs would just bring NBs back to the overperforming point.

Nah nah Incap stun should be again at 120 ult.

Grim Focus delay is bad and it should go long ago (same as crystal frags delay)

Teleport strike - yes that wind up is terrible and clunky.

But path is not ok. Mass hysteria when compared to turn evil is not ok. Having no major expedition except of trash twisting path is not ok.

Patch 5.2.0/5.2.2: So, what's the point of rolling Nightblades now? There's no unique reason for picking Magblade or Stamblade at this point. Aside from Cloak and Grim Focus, which have both been nerfed to the point of not being useful in PvP anymore.

Cloak has hard counters in 3 skill lines accessible to any class (not counting Soul Strike), detection potions, Piercing Mark from other NBs, and some damaging abilities which pull you out of stealth. There's absolutely no way cloak is op.

Stamblade in PvP is just another generic, Two-hander user utilizing Turn Evil because Aspect of Terror (and morphs) bring nothing better over TE. Two-handed skills overall are already overshadowing Assassination skills.

Onslaught is far better than Incapacitating Strike, even magicka characters can gain the benefits of Onslaught. The only way you can combo Stamblade's tool-kit anymore is if the opponent is AFK after those dumb cast times were added to Death Stroke and delay was added the Grim Focus projectile. Even Dawnbreaker is better with its DoT, weapon damage via Fighter's guild passive, damage bonus against vampires, and choice of STUN or 300 WEAPON DAMAGE FOR 20s, AND THEY ARE BOTH AOE WITH NO TARGET CAP. Like, how is a single-target killing ultimate this crappy? Where is the fairness in that? Where has Nightblades' "power fantasy" gone, huh @ZOS_BrianWheeler ?

I don't even want to get started on how unjustified the Path of Darkness and Strife nerfs have been over this last year.

I will talk about Stamblade PvP, the role I've been playing by three years. I'm a streamer, and have a channel too, and I know many players will known me from the NA/PC, I don't use to post or comment in the forum, but I have a good experience in what I will say;

I know it is hard to read, but nowadays If you die for a solo Stamblade, you're doing something very wrong. Stamblade was on a good spot some paths ago, It was ranking side by side with StamDKs and MagSorcs, but now It is pretty dead. The survivability is still good, we got cloak, and the new Rally, but we lack damage, we can't kill a single Templar or DK by ourselves. The class combo is weak, we are missing a good stun ability, and our ultimate is useless in most of times. The only way to have some damage is focus all you have in an ofensive stats and send all your sustain to far and beyond.

Just for an example, I will consider a classic ability bar:
1 - Ambush // Rally // Surprise Atk // Executioner // Mass Hysteria // Incap Strk
2 - Leeching Strikes // Vigor // Shuffle // Cloak // Poison Inject // Any defensive Ult

We are working with an ungrateful tradeoff, If you want to have some of your damage back, I mean our old Major Fracture, you need to give up on your stun (Mass Hysteria) or you sustain ability (Leeching Strikes) to use Reaper's Mark, and It doesn't worth it. If you use Mass Hysteria as a stun, you will spend the magicka you need to cloak, loosing your survivability, and if you consider using some magicka sustain, you will loose more damage, making your stamblade even weaker. Ok, Can we work without Ambush maybe? -No! The class doesn't have any snare ability like DKs or Templars (whose have an ranged stun too) and we don't have a Streak or increases in move speed like Sorcs, we depends on a Gap Close ability. Some patchs ago I usually have The Steed mundus in my char, but now I can't afford to use it, because I will loose more damage, which I'm lacking, remember? Since I have lost my Minor Berserk (8% more damage), and Major Fracture (which means a lot).
An option for stun is cloak + surprise, but it is very very hard to land, since most players spots me before I finish my move, and it is frustrating the class combo.

What is a class combo? I will tell you:
Stamdk: Dots + Dizzy + Leap + Execute (sometimes you don't even need the dizzy)
Stamplar: PoTL + Ult Sweep + Javelin + Jabs (you can use a gap close before javelin too)
Magdk: Dots + 3 Ardent Flame Skills + Leap + Molten Whip (Molten will get stronger for every ardent flame and is making an op execute for the class)
Magblade: Clench + Ult Soul harvest + Merciless Resolve + Impale (sometimes you don't need the impale)

What is my point with all this explanation? Combos is what makes PvP fun, this is the beauty of the game, and every combo, for every class has a good stun (all of them deals damage too), so... where is the stun for stamblade's combo?

So, here is my opinion to make a fair tradeoff for the the Stamblade:
-We need more damage in the class. Give our Major Fracture back with 2 or 3 seconds duration, DKs got a MF, Wardens too, why does Nightblade need a single skill just for the debuff? It should come with a damage ability too.

-We need a good stun that doesn't kill our sustain and makes a good sinergy with the skills, my suggestion is making the next damage skill (or surprise attack) after a Cloak stuns for 3 seconds, even if you leave the cloak. Or give our Incap stun back, silence is useless, we don't need the defile, it was op, we just need a good stun.

-Give us some kind of passive snare, or increased walking speed like others classes, we don't have any ranged spammable, and I don't like the obligation to use Ambush, it got a slow animation and hinder more than help.

Thanks for your time. I'm free to discuss any feedback, follow me on my channels if you want see my stamblade gameplays, call me to join class rep program (just joking ... or maybe not)

you tube.com/mestrefrooke
twit ch.tv/mestrefrooke

Mayrael wrote: »

Frooke wrote: »

I will talk about Stamblade PvP, the role I've been playing by three years. I'm a streamer, and have a channel too, and I know many players will known me from the NA/PC, I don't use to post or comment in the forum, but I have a good experience in what I will say;

I know it is hard to read, but nowadays If you die for a solo Stamblade, you're doing something very wrong. Stamblade was on a good spot some paths ago, It was ranking side by side with StamDKs and MagSorcs, but now It is pretty dead. The survivability is still good, we got cloak, and the new Rally, but we lack damage, we can't kill a single Templar or DK by ourselves. The class combo is weak, we are missing a good stun ability, and our ultimate is useless in most of times. The only way to have some damage is focus all you have in an ofensive stats and send all your sustain to far and beyond.

Just for an example, I will consider a classic ability bar:
1 - Ambush // Rally // Surprise Atk // Executioner // Mass Hysteria // Incap Strk
2 - Leeching Strikes // Vigor // Shuffle // Cloak // Poison Inject // Any defensive Ult

We are working with an ungrateful tradeoff, If you want to have some of your damage back, I mean our old Major Fracture, you need to give up on your stun (Mass Hysteria) or you sustain ability (Leeching Strikes) to use Reaper's Mark, and It doesn't worth it. If you use Mass Hysteria as a stun, you will spend the magicka you need to cloak, loosing your survivability, and if you consider using some magicka sustain, you will loose more damage, making your stamblade even weaker. Ok, Can we work without Ambush maybe? -No! The class doesn't have any snare ability like DKs or Templars (whose have an ranged stun too) and we don't have a Streak or increases in move speed like Sorcs, we depends on a Gap Close ability. Some patchs ago I usually have The Steed mundus in my char, but now I can't afford to use it, because I will loose more damage, which I'm lacking, remember? Since I have lost my Minor Berserk (8% more damage), and Major Fracture (which means a lot).
An option for stun is cloak + surprise, but it is very very hard to land, since most players spots me before I finish my move, and it is frustrating the class combo.

What is a class combo? I will tell you:
Stamdk: Dots + Dizzy + Leap + Execute (sometimes you don't even need the dizzy)
Stamplar: PoTL + Ult Sweep + Javelin + Jabs (you can use a gap close before javelin too)
Magdk: Dots + 3 Ardent Flame Skills + Leap + Molten Whip (Molten will get stronger for every ardent flame and is making an op execute for the class)
Magblade: Clench + Ult Soul harvest + Merciless Resolve + Impale (sometimes you don't need the impale)

What is my point with all this explanation? Combos is what makes PvP fun, this is the beauty of the game, and every combo, for every class has a good stun (all of them deals damage too), so... where is the stun for stamblade's combo?

So, here is my opinion to make a fair tradeoff for the the Stamblade:
-We need more damage in the class. Give our Major Fracture back with 2 or 3 seconds duration, DKs got a MF, Wardens too, why does Nightblade need a single skill just for the debuff? It should come with a damage ability too.

-We need a good stun that doesn't kill our sustain and makes a good sinergy with the skills, my suggestion is making the next damage skill (or surprise attack) after a Cloak stuns for 3 seconds, even if you leave the cloak. Or give our Incap stun back, silence is useless, we don't need the defile, it was op, we just need a good stun.

-Give us some kind of passive snare, or increased walking speed like others classes, we don't have any ranged spammable, and I don't like the obligation to use Ambush, it got a slow animation and hinder more than help.

Thanks for your time. I'm free to discuss any feedback, follow me on my channels if you want see my stamblade gameplays, call me to join class rep program (just joking ... or maybe not)

you tube.com/mestrefrooke
twit ch.tv/mestrefrooke

You got me till you wrote about magblade. Sorry but clench is a joke of a skill right now, it almost deal no damage. Stamblades can use turn evil, they don't need to run Mass hysteria to lose magicka as turn evil is better choice. Also stamblades will use now onslaught instead of Incap (even after nerf Onslaught is amazing skill when compared to Incap or Harvest). In the end of the day stamblade have better tools than magblades in every aspect + they have unavailable for them roll dodge, off balance, better mobility, possibility of building much higher weapon damage etc. etc.

In general yes stamblades are overnerfed but if you trying to imply that magblades are in better shape than stamblades than sorry mate, but you are a bit delusional and I can't agree with you.

I think his point was that Magblade has an access to a reliable combo with Clench. Why ? Coz it's a knockback, and that Nb burst abilities are all delay now, and a knockback is the only kind of CC that gives a way to hit an ability with a cast time.
But I disagree with his point anyway, if you have to use a skill from other skill lines to combo, well Stamblades can also do it (atleast this patch) with Dizzy, imo all classes should have access to a combo through his kit, and that's actually not the case for Nb, for both mag and stam spe.

I also disagree with his proposal (and some other things like the obligation to run Ambush) or your point about Turn Evil.
His changes on SA wouldn't give Nb any way to combo, and Turn Evil don't give it either, the only way to combo with Nb actually is through a knockback that you can't get in Nb skill lines, and the reason why is cast time.
Any decent players will always dodge Nb burst after SA stun or Turn Evil / Mass Hysteria, coz any decent players will just break free in time and block or roll due to the delay.
Actually, if you hit a combo while using only Nb toolkit, it just means that your opponent did a mistake.

To combo, you can also start your combo with the ability that is delay, but by doing that, you won't have enough damage to follow up and it'll not lead to a kill, actually my most reliable way to do that is with Onslaught because the burst and the damage multiplier is so much higher than Incap that I have enough damage to lead to a kill (Note that I only play no-cp so I can't tell for cp pvp), but that's more Onslaught which is too strong than anything else.
Note also that if you start a combo with Incap while you got 120 + ult points, you'll just give free CC immunity to half builds in Cyro and Mag chars can still roll / block and you still can't follow up and it won't lead to a kill.

I'm going to take back what devs told about cast times IN U23 Q&A. (link there : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1)

Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much. You also can’t animation cancel them because we don’t want players to be able to instantly cast them anymore. They are just too powerful.

Put aside your pov on cast times pls, if it's good or not is not for multiples reasons isn't my subject there, I just want to argue against what the combat team, and none else, told.

I'm going to suppose that they know how GCD works and that when they speak about 3 - 4 abilities at once, they're talking about combos with delay abilities.
Problem is that Nb don't have these delay abilities to combo with an ultimate.
Yes, Incap and Relentless focus (and their mag morphs) have a delay, but we're talking about a 0,4 sec delay there, you can't put multiple GCD at once with such a short delay.
Other classes have these abilities, Warden got Shalk, Templar got Pol, Magsorc got Curse, Necro got blastbones even if they're buggy but that's another problem, DK, well they got plenty of dots and their playstyle isn't built around burst but more dots / outsustain their opponent.
Note that if they don't talk specifically about delay abilities but just that they don't want people to combo with ultimates in general, well it put another problem that I'll talk about at the end.

Nb don't have any delay abilities in his kit, all the damage from our combo come skill by skill, and it works because our skills hit especially hard and we can allow ourselves to build more damage due to our defensive tools.
This justification doesn't make sense when it comes to Nb. (Special note to cast time on Soul Siphon that is total nonsense, given the fact that it is a defensive ultimate and isn't concern by their justification at all, ik class rep talked to them multiple times about that but for real this one is really complete nonsense)

If we want Nb to get back a reliable combo, we need either to remove cast time on Assassin's Will / Incap, or give Nb a knockback in his toolkit.

Now, this one point is more about cast times in general.
If you want to nerf combos, then make them less efficient instead of making them almost impossible to land, this way you won't affect the feeling and the playstyle of the class.
The combat team think that some combos are too strong with ultimates. I'm totally fine with that, but make combos unusable only leads to frustration, combos are part of the thing that makes combat fun and a spe viable in pvp (you don't kill good players without a combo)
That's exactly the same thing that is happening to me with Dizzy on PTS, which is why I don't like this change, but I would disgress there.

If you disagree with me, then please try to be cool and argue against what I said specifically, I know discussions about cast times tends to lead to nonconstructive conversations, that's not my goal there.

Mayrael wrote: »

Yeah, you're right about delay and cast times, but one thing that is IMHO controversial is knock back. In current state it's bugged and I wouldn't like to relay on bugged cc to build my combo, I'd prefer to line up my burst with good timing, but with all those half second cast times and delays it's impossible vs decent opponent and we are forced in some way to use knock back.

In general cast times on ultimates are totally broken but cast time on defensive morph is total mistake and is highly unjust.

Yeah, I wouldn't like to have to play with a knockback to combo either, and it would require to rework a skill if we want to add that in Nb skill line (and it would also make it core in all Nb builds which reduce diversity) which is a lot of work when just remove delays are a way easier solution, they just don't fit in Nb toolkit imo.

So basically we again loose 20% DPS on twisting path, I really dont get why !
That's has been nerf in update 22 and 23 ... Now what, ZOS want we delete our character, even so our account ?

That's the end game here ?

Show us some love !

I run a stamblade PVE that occasionally does bgs or no-CP IC and Cyrodil. I'm not the best nor the worst, but I definitely feel stronger on Live in PVE right now--in PVP it really is about getting in, bursting damage, and then getting away as quickly as possible to survive. I can still rack up kills, but I really have to use stealth tactics, and I'm not talking about ganking. It's more line of sight and using the landscape.

I'm on console so I'll have to wait and see how these changes feel.

I really miss the stun on Incapacitating Strike (which no longer earns its name at all). They seem to keep taking all our stuns which really bites.

5.2.3 is a very health patch overall for magblades. Thanks for reverting the shadow image nerf.

The only thing I miss now is the damage component of refreshing path (seriously the base morph not doing any damage or healing is pretty ***)

It needs to do more at base, which should carry over the the morphs.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

5.2.3 is a very health patch overall for magblades. Thanks for reverting the shadow image nerf.

The only thing I miss now is the damage component of refreshing path (seriously the base morph not doing any damage or healing is pretty ***)

It needs to do more at base, which should carry over the the morphs.

What's healthy for magblades in this patch? So far only good thing is reduced cost of veiled in spammable meta, but ahem, if you gonna all-melee, why use magblade at all? stamblade will do the same, just better.

Shadow image revert and the reduction of the over-nerf to dots open up alot of build crafting again. Honestly what do people still want for the class? What do you want?

We already have snare removal, add that to cloak, shadow image and LOS we are already very hard to catch 1vX. In 1v1 scenarios magblades are very strong (not in live right now though because DOT pressure is ridiculous atm). Our burst is still very bursty, and while our spammables aren't the best, they serve their purpose of pressuring opponents while building the spectral bow. If we get a massive damage shield or a heal, while having cloak, shadow image, and snare removal, it'd be too good.

I think the problem and why people think magblades are still underpowered is that a lot of people are either trying to build like a magsorc or build a magicka stamblade.

I think magblades are already very good now, if you are playing under the right mindset. Sure heavy armor brawly magblades need something (imo the other morph of cloak needs to do more to make that playstyle viable), but they aren't in the most horrible state with 5.2.3.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

5.2.3 is a very health patch overall for magblades. Thanks for reverting the shadow image nerf.

The only thing I miss now is the damage component of refreshing path (seriously the base morph not doing any damage or healing is pretty ***)

It needs to do more at base, which should carry over the the morphs.

What's healthy for magblades in this patch? So far only good thing is reduced cost of veiled in spammable meta, but ahem, if you gonna all-melee, why use magblade at all? stamblade will do the same, just better.

Shadow image revert and the reduction of the over-nerf to dots open up alot of build crafting again. Honestly what do people still want for the class? What do you want?

We already have snare removal, add that to cloak, shadow image and LOS we are already very hard to catch 1vX. In 1v1 scenarios magblades are very strong (not in live right now though because DOT pressure is ridiculous atm). Our burst is still very bursty, and while our spammables aren't the best, they serve their purpose of pressuring opponents while building the spectral bow. If we get a massive damage shield or a heal, while having cloak, shadow image, and snare removal, it'd be too good.

I think the problem and why people think magblades are still underpowered is that a lot of people are either trying to build like a magsorc or build a magicka stamblade.

I think magblades are already very good now, if you are playing under the right mindset. Sure heavy armor brawly magblades need something (imo the other morph of cloak needs to do more to make that playstyle viable), but they aren't in the most horrible state with 5.2.3.

Still, what's the point of running magblade over stamblade, especially after veiled strike buff? And also don't forget that projectile immunity is back in town, so as long as you see sorc you may just cloak away.

I'm not saying that magblade is unplayble. I'm saying stamblade is better in melee, and magplar is better at ranged play. So what's the point to play magblade? ability to permacloak and move fast while invisible?

And this is for PVP. For PVE magblade just lol. Completely outclassed by magplar, with this patch even more. Boom baby.

Yeah Ball Lightning does a bit too much offensively and defensively and shouldn't make it live, but that's for a different thread.

Thankfully, I couldn't care less about PVE.

HaruKamui wrote: »

Reading a lot of the comments here, some buff requests are ridiculously OP. Like, merciless being off GCD would be broken. Turn Evil costs so much for a stamina skill that i think the power level of it compared with mass hysteria is fine.

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Strife and Surprise Attack are still weaker than other generic spammables, Mark Target is much weaker than Ele Drain (it's actually completely useless outside of very few niches, it's not worth to sacrifice a skillslot for fracture and nothing else), Grim Focus has too much delay, Incap/Soul Harvest is overnerfed especially with cast times, healing is still the weakest from all classes,...

How is it ok that Dk/temp/warden are allowed to have class skills which outperform generic weapon skills but some other classes aren't?

Edit: I don't ask for these skills to be overpowered af but they should be slightly better than the generic skills available to everyone. It's getting frustrating, Nb was bombarded with nerfs for 3 patches in a row now and a fix is not in sight because the dev team seems to only care about Templars.

Ele drain is a very powerful skill. Is there any skill that outperforms it? I wouldnt want it to get nerfed though because all magtoons will suffer.

Grim Focus delay was actually reduced last patch such that you can combo hyseria -> bow again with a higher success rate.

Incap was overnerfed, Soul Harvest is still fine. Major Defile is so good.

Healing isn't weak per se. Burst healing is. HoT adds up though. Again if we had an amazing burst heal like magplars, we'd be impossible to kill with cloak and shadow image.

I didn't say that Ele Drain should be nerfed (even tho the skill is overloaded as hell but we've seen enough nerfs...), I said that Mark Target should be comparable strong to it. They said that they reduced the travel time but apparantly they didn't according to combat logs and no, you can't combo it with a stun. Soul Harvest isn't fine a cast time, nor is Incap. Defense on magblade is terrible, shields got nerfed, healing ward got nerfed and defense for the class is far too expensive.

Zalathorm wrote: »

1. Revert the grim focus nerf, which was nerfed on principle because you said that passive AND active damage boosts on the same ability was too much: You took away the berserk buff. You added damage mitigation on a DPS ability. Something that no stamblade in PVE wanted. Now, tanks use it but dont use the proc. Stamblades still have to use it, but dont care about the damage mitigation. Keep this a burst ability and add back minor beserk. Help the night blade tanks on a different ability.
2. You gave stam sorcs essentially the same ability, that does passive damage (increased LA's), 5% max stam, AND the damage on proc! Completely inconsistent.
3. Revert surprise attack nerf. Add major fracture back on it. The current debuff on it is a joke. Major fracture on the spammable makes nightblades a great mechanics class, someone who can be sent to kill the crystal, orbs, whatever more efficiently than other classes and gives them a niche.
4. 3. Revert incap nerf. Silence is beyond bad. As people have pointed out for months, incap is unusable because the silence is not debilitating, and will make them CC immune from more potent forms of CC.
5. Drain Power - Please make this ability usable in PVE. Having it give a buff you already get from weapon power pots make it essentially pointlesss. A good class AOE is needed!

Stamblades were in the 4th tier of PVE DPS. Simply reverting some of your changes will put them more even with stamcros and stamsorcs.

I completely agree with this nb needs buffs badly.

hakan wrote: »

shadow image unnerfed? they said battle spirit and reach wont effect image so it is still nerfed. or am i missing sth?

Shadow image was never affected by battle spirit and reach or anything, but tooltip and your skillbar still acted like if it was affected by these range buff.

So it will remain the same, there will just not be any confusion coz of range buff, it's a bug fix

Honestly I just think that they wanted to nerf just to correct this bug with the lazy solution, but I don't get why they wanted that hard to fix a bug none ever complained about, I mean, shade was broken for almost a year but that didn't seem that important compare to that.

So I've spent few days playing my magplar to see what's all the fuss about.
Here are my conclusions:

1. Lotus fan when compared to toppling charge feels like it would have cast time, most of the time when trying to gapclose on escaping enemy he manages to get out of range or use LoS before lotus winds up. This needs to change, it's one of the most clunky gapclosers in the game.

2. Soul Harvest compared to Cresent sweep... Well again it's really clumsy skill because of that cast time. Remove those darn cast times.

3. Sustain. To be able to effectively attack and defend my self I need almost 800 magicka regen less on my templar which leads to situation where I can invest those sustain points into damage. My magplar resists are reaching a bit above cap and still I am able to have almost 3k Spell damage and 17k spell pen.

4. Burst heal makes Templar a lot more forgiving when making mistakes.


So I get it that magblade is meant to be played differently than magplar but why the heII assassin archetype class feels slower and less bursty than a healer archetype class? Why NB in general needs to suffer those cast times and clumsyness everywhere while Templar can be a lot more responsive (lol I never believed that I will ever say that any class is more clumsy than Templar but here we go!).