Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

D swing is ridiculous, it hits harder than most ults and its abuse is rampant in battlegrounds, they should just remove the cast time and lower the damage and just make it a cut and paste spammable

Which single target ult hits for less than Dswing? On a similar build of course.

I‘m still waiting @Fawn4287

By making it stamina and single target you leave 2 ultimates to pick from and with brp 2h uppercut can be an aoe, however thats not the point the basic fact is that wrecking blow hit harder than Meteor, dawnbreaker, soul harvest and empowering sweep, if the ability was working as intended it wouldn’t be getting such a heavy blow dealt to it would it?

It doesn't.
Let's take a look at the UESP build editor for current live patch. That means before the nerf.
Without anything spend or slotted, just tooltips on a naked new char.

• Dizzy 1.159 (-16% should be 973 on pts)
• Onslaught 1.438
• DBoS 1.273 +1.525 DoT (over 6s)
• Meteor 1.438 (SS) + 410 DoT (11s, every sec) or 1.633 (IC) + 466 DoT (11s, every sec)
• Leap 1.495 (FL) or 1.725 (TF)
• Death Stroke 1.314
• Radial Sweep 848 + 410 DoT (6s, 2s intervall)

For scaling you have to do your own homework. Or maybe, if I find the time, I'll hop on the PTS and do a standard darkelf build with Shackle and Julianos/ Hundings etc. No promises on that.

Anyway, your line of reasoning is a bit off. First off, the official explanation why nerfed it is because it doesn't fit the DoT standard anymore. DoTs will get unnerfed by 20%, that should mean it the excuse for 16% less dmg on Uppercut won't cut it anymore.

Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 16% to ensure it does not eclipse other damage abilities such as DoTs.

They never lost a word on why it doesn't stun. We could guess that it's because they don't want stuns on high damage abilites. Someone can surely dig up the patch notes in which they statet that. Fair game then, but that doesn't warrant the double nerf.

So if you ask me personally why they went for a "heavy blow to it", then I'd say it's not because it isn't working as intended. People cried too loud, that's all. But why is that so? I think we have to take a look on the recent updates.

Update 22:

Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and its morphs by 14% to make up for the removal of the post global noted above. Note this will result in a 6% overall DPS increase when used in quick succession.

Update 23:

Uppercut:
Reduced the cast time of this ability and its morphs to 0.8 seconds from 1 second to help its reliability when being used in fast combat in melee range.
Reduced the base cost to 2700 from 3240.
Increased the damage from this ability by approximately 9%.

Puncture:
Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%, but reduced the cost to 1350 from 1701.

Low Slash: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and the Heroic Slash morph by approximately 31%. These two abilities will also no longer snare targets.

Hidden Blade: Reworked this ability from a ranged spammable into a utility skill.
Increased the cost to 3780 from 2970.
Reduced their range to 22 meters from 28 meters.
Reduced the damage dealt by approximately 25%.

See what happened? They nerfed 3 alternatives while they cut down the cast time by 20% and increased the damage back up a bit (but mind you, it's still below it's tooltip from U21, even tho only by around 8%).

So of course people hopped on it. It became kinda omnipresent because what else would you use on certain classes? People saw it more often on their death recaps. So there's reason number one.

Number two is peoples PoV and the lag. They come to the forums claiming that they got hit by a dizzy while being out of range. *** like this happens in heavy lag. It also happens with other skills. But lag also exists for the swinger. Have you tried landing dizzy in a bigger battle? Then you'd see it goes both ways. Can't count how often my char held off that swing for far too long. But Zeni promised better performance soon... again.

Thirdly the knockbar issue. It's an annoying and sometimes game changing bug. ZoS finally decided to work on it by making the animation faster. But instead of going to test how it does play out they straight went overboard again and took it off.

Tl;dR

Nerfed alternatives, bad server performance and bugs led to all the outrage over dizzy, which in turn caused the far to heavy nerfs. Wouldn't be the first time that Zeni bend over to the loudest group.

Or do you dare to say that every nerf was made for the right reasons with all the right magnitudes?

No dizzying swing is the same as when cfrag had a cc on it and surprise attack had major fracture on it, no ability that hits that hard should have such secondary utility, I play with ~300-500ms of lag from OCE on NA servers and even with my unbearable level of lag and barely being able to hit it I still take wblow on a dot build stamplar over javelin, turn evil and silver leash purely because it hits at least twice as hard as these, a lot of the time I use it over jabs because of glyph proc and i can get 2-3 wrecking blows off in the same time as one jabs takes.

Maybe it hits harder because these are instant, ranged, AoE, pulls and not bound to a weapon line? Hyberpoble and changing goal posts won't serve you well. First you claimed it hits harder than Ultimates. Now you get 3 Dizzys off before you finish a 1s channel. If you're able to weave light attacks between your jabs you will proc glyphs regardless. I'm sorry about your lag issue but that should never be the basis to build nerfs upon.

Do you really try to compare ULTIMATES and a COMMON spamable skill in terms of damage? LOL. Dizzy is nobrainer skill right now, there is nothing skillfull or challenging in using it, you just mash that button untill your target jumps in the air, you use onslaught that can't be blocked or dodged because of KB bug, you recieve unmitigated executioner spam 7-10k.

What can someone do vs Dizzy when playing magicka? You can't hold block longer than few seconds, you can't roll it more than twice. It's a death sentence unless you know how to use shade and cloak or you are sorc and you can streak through guy. NO HARD HITTING SPAMABLE SKILL SHOULD HAVE CC. PERIOD. It doesn't matter would it be magicka or stamina skill.

Do you intentionally read this wrong to farm some agrees? That dude said several times that dizzy hits harder than Ultimates. Which it doesnt. After that he claimed he can get off 3 times an 0.8s ct skill before he finishes off an 1s channel. That is nothing more of less than what I said: overexaggeration and goal post moving. If you want a serious discussion, than thats not the way to go

Curently i am somewhat fine with off balance instead of a kb (even tho they should have given us time to test how it works out on the new cc behavior). But I am certainly not fine with the double nerf, the-16% on dmg (especially with the excuse about dot power that gets revertet).

Fyi some classes cant fall back on class Spams. Dots are nerfed too. That means less pressure and less burst. But i guess that is totally fine to you.

Azramel wrote: »

2h is getting nerfed really hard since last patch. First zos takes away the snare, then the hard cc, not to mention the damage nerfs. Honestly, its overkill. Bad pvp players are still going to complain about dying to dizzy spammers simply because they are bad pvp players. Doesn't mean that the entire skill line needs to get nerfed to ground to the point where its not even viable in many builds. Especially when use by classes that don't have stamina based hard cc or snares to begin with, which is almost all of them.

2H is now the only weapon skill line with no snare, root, or disables (stuns, fears etc). Which, *hint hint for any bad pvp players*, are the only crowd controls that matter for pvp.

Mayrael wrote: »

Then maybe just maybe use other weapon? Maybe skills with CC shouldn't hit like a truck? 2h still gives biggest burst off all weapons, if you want have crowd controll you can simply slot turn evil - literally best CC in the game if you say it is so important. I know you would have to use skill slot to have it, like every other player and that CC wouldn't be as effective as bugged knock back but maybe it's time to learn how to play without cheese all-in-one skill.

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

D swing is ridiculous, it hits harder than most ults and its abuse is rampant in battlegrounds, they should just remove the cast time and lower the damage and just make it a cut and paste spammable

Which single target ult hits for less than Dswing? On a similar build of course.

I‘m still waiting @Fawn4287

By making it stamina and single target you leave 2 ultimates to pick from and with brp 2h uppercut can be an aoe, however thats not the point the basic fact is that wrecking blow hit harder than Meteor, dawnbreaker, soul harvest and empowering sweep, if the ability was working as intended it wouldn’t be getting such a heavy blow dealt to it would it?

It doesn't.
Let's take a look at the UESP build editor for current live patch. That means before the nerf.
Without anything spend or slotted, just tooltips on a naked new char.

• Dizzy 1.159 (-16% should be 973 on pts)
• Onslaught 1.438
• DBoS 1.273 +1.525 DoT (over 6s)
• Meteor 1.438 (SS) + 410 DoT (11s, every sec) or 1.633 (IC) + 466 DoT (11s, every sec)
• Leap 1.495 (FL) or 1.725 (TF)
• Death Stroke 1.314
• Radial Sweep 848 + 410 DoT (6s, 2s intervall)

For scaling you have to do your own homework. Or maybe, if I find the time, I'll hop on the PTS and do a standard darkelf build with Shackle and Julianos/ Hundings etc. No promises on that.

Anyway, your line of reasoning is a bit off. First off, the official explanation why nerfed it is because it doesn't fit the DoT standard anymore. DoTs will get unnerfed by 20%, that should mean it the excuse for 16% less dmg on Uppercut won't cut it anymore.

Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 16% to ensure it does not eclipse other damage abilities such as DoTs.

They never lost a word on why it doesn't stun. We could guess that it's because they don't want stuns on high damage abilites. Someone can surely dig up the patch notes in which they statet that. Fair game then, but that doesn't warrant the double nerf.

So if you ask me personally why they went for a "heavy blow to it", then I'd say it's not because it isn't working as intended. People cried too loud, that's all. But why is that so? I think we have to take a look on the recent updates.

Update 22:

Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and its morphs by 14% to make up for the removal of the post global noted above. Note this will result in a 6% overall DPS increase when used in quick succession.

Update 23:

Uppercut:
Reduced the cast time of this ability and its morphs to 0.8 seconds from 1 second to help its reliability when being used in fast combat in melee range.
Reduced the base cost to 2700 from 3240.
Increased the damage from this ability by approximately 9%.

Puncture:
Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%, but reduced the cost to 1350 from 1701.

Low Slash: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and the Heroic Slash morph by approximately 31%. These two abilities will also no longer snare targets.

Hidden Blade: Reworked this ability from a ranged spammable into a utility skill.
Increased the cost to 3780 from 2970.
Reduced their range to 22 meters from 28 meters.
Reduced the damage dealt by approximately 25%.

See what happened? They nerfed 3 alternatives while they cut down the cast time by 20% and increased the damage back up a bit (but mind you, it's still below it's tooltip from U21, even tho only by around 8%).

So of course people hopped on it. It became kinda omnipresent because what else would you use on certain classes? People saw it more often on their death recaps. So there's reason number one.

Number two is peoples PoV and the lag. They come to the forums claiming that they got hit by a dizzy while being out of range. *** like this happens in heavy lag. It also happens with other skills. But lag also exists for the swinger. Have you tried landing dizzy in a bigger battle? Then you'd see it goes both ways. Can't count how often my char held off that swing for far too long. But Zeni promised better performance soon... again.

Thirdly the knockbar issue. It's an annoying and sometimes game changing bug. ZoS finally decided to work on it by making the animation faster. But instead of going to test how it does play out they straight went overboard again and took it off.

Tl;dR

Nerfed alternatives, bad server performance and bugs led to all the outrage over dizzy, which in turn caused the far to heavy nerfs. Wouldn't be the first time that Zeni bend over to the loudest group.

Or do you dare to say that every nerf was made for the right reasons with all the right magnitudes?

No dizzying swing is the same as when cfrag had a cc on it and surprise attack had major fracture on it, no ability that hits that hard should have such secondary utility, I play with ~300-500ms of lag from OCE on NA servers and even with my unbearable level of lag and barely being able to hit it I still take wblow on a dot build stamplar over javelin, turn evil and silver leash purely because it hits at least twice as hard as these, a lot of the time I use it over jabs because of glyph proc and i can get 2-3 wrecking blows off in the same time as one jabs takes.

Maybe it hits harder because these are instant, ranged, AoE, pulls and not bound to a weapon line? Hyberpoble and changing goal posts won't serve you well. First you claimed it hits harder than Ultimates. Now you get 3 Dizzys off before you finish a 1s channel. If you're able to weave light attacks between your jabs you will proc glyphs regardless. I'm sorry about your lag issue but that should never be the basis to build nerfs upon.

Do you really try to compare ULTIMATES and a COMMON spamable skill in terms of damage? LOL. Dizzy is nobrainer skill right now, there is nothing skillfull or challenging in using it, you just mash that button untill your target jumps in the air, you use onslaught that can't be blocked or dodged because of KB bug, you recieve unmitigated executioner spam 7-10k.

What can someone do vs Dizzy when playing magicka? You can't hold block longer than few seconds, you can't roll it more than twice. It's a death sentence unless you know how to use shade and cloak or you are sorc and you can streak through guy. NO HARD HITTING SPAMABLE SKILL SHOULD HAVE CC. PERIOD. It doesn't matter would it be magicka or stamina skill.

Do you intentionally read this wrong to farm some agrees? That dude said several times that dizzy hits harder than Ultimates. Which it doesnt. After that he claimed he can get off 3 times an 0.8s ct skill before he finishes off an 1s channel. That is nothing more of less than what I said: overexaggeration and goal post moving. If you want a serious discussion, than thats not the way to go

Curently i am somewhat fine with off balance instead of a kb (even tho they should have given us time to test how it works out on the new cc behavior). But I am certainly not fine with the double nerf, the-16% on dmg (especially with the excuse about dot power that gets revertet).

Fyi some classes cant fall back on class Spams. Dots are nerfed too. That means less pressure and less burst. But i guess that is totally fine to you.

How I love such manipulators of the truth. What do you say about the fact that any "good" dizzy spammer can have 20-30 kills at the end of the match? Yes he hits more than some ults even if you hit heavy armor. Hope I helped with a solution to your problem why -15% damage. In its own way, this is even greater evil than dots.

Trian94 wrote: »

I see some people here want a spammable in the destro staff that has equal damage to dizzying swing (even with the same cast time). For some reason, in their heads, a ranged heavy hitting attack is balanced. So having to take no risk to use it from range and deal tons of damage is acceptable. Furthermore what's the point of using grim focus or frags then?

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Then maybe just maybe use other weapon? Maybe skills with CC shouldn't hit like a truck? 2h still gives biggest burst off all weapons, if you want have crowd controll you can simply slot turn evil - literally best CC in the game if you say it is so important. I know you would have to use skill slot to have it, like every other player and that CC wouldn't be as effective as bugged knock back but maybe it's time to learn how to play without cheese all-in-one skill.

Turn Evil is one of the most expensive CC's in the game, and the only reason that it's notable is that it is the only stamina CC available for all classes. There is a reason that it has a 4k stamina cost and such a small radius to CC people.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Oh and what you could do on your mag toon against dizzy? Simply walk through your opponent for no freaking cost. The same thing you were able to do for the last five years.
I swear, you guys aren’t satisfied until each and every skill is in the gutter.

You can't do that anymore. I've tried it on mag and stam classes. The reduction in cast time and sped up animation make it impossible to do so.
Skill is overloaded, bro. Get over it.

It’s harder but it’s not impossible to cancel a dizzy via movement. Believe me, I do it and people do it to me. Maybe you just get outplayed. Get over it. But I’d be totally fine if they put the cast time back up again.

Qbiken wrote: »

Nicalas wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

BTW with the new change to Off balance, The Armor of Truth set will be extremely good. 450 weapon damage without a CD whenever you land a dizzy could be a nice buff.

Off balance has a cool down on when it can be reapplied to players. I believe it’s 20 seconds after the debuff expires. Could be less though.

Off balance has a cooldown in PvE, which is 20 seconds on NPC´s.

In PvP however, there's no cooldown on players. The off-balance debuff is removed if the target is stunned (assuming no cc immunity is present). For example, heavy attack on off-balanced target will stun them (unless they're cc immune, then the off-balance debuff won't be consumed)

holden_caulfield wrote: »

The only pvp that I play are battlegrounds.
I'm an healer.
So u are telling me that when I'm focused by at least 3 players all casting DS I should do what exactly?
Yes, It's a noob killer. So why everybody just spam it?

Its sad seeing all these people defending an almost I win skill.
You know as well as I know u wouldnt be so vocal if almost all your pvp performance wouldnt depend on this skill.

Sorry for my bad english

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

The only pvp that I play are battlegrounds.
I'm an healer.
So u are telling me that when I'm focused by at least 3 players all casting DS I should do what exactly?
Yes, It's a noob killer. So why everybody just spam it?

Its sad seeing all these people defending an almost I win skill.
You know as well as I know u wouldnt be so vocal if almost all your pvp performance wouldnt depend on this skill.

Sorry for my bad english

What do you do when „at least 3 players“ focus you with any skill?
People are vocal because they depend on it - on classes that don’t have anything else to spam. Give dk, sorc etc. a decent spam and you can cripple ds to your hearts contempt.

Demra wrote: »

Ppl that advocate having a ranged spell with high damage is the same as having an easily avoidable melee skill with high damage, clearly never used dizzy and lack perspective.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

holden_caulfield wrote: »

The only pvp that I play are battlegrounds.
I'm an healer.
So u are telling me that when I'm focused by at least 3 players all casting DS I should do what exactly?
Yes, It's a noob killer. So why everybody just spam it?

Its sad seeing all these people defending an almost I win skill.
You know as well as I know u wouldnt be so vocal if almost all your pvp performance wouldnt depend on this skill.

Sorry for my bad english

What do you do when „at least 3 players“ focus you with any skill?
People are vocal because they depend on it - on classes that don’t have anything else to spam. Give dk, sorc etc. a decent spam and you can cripple ds to your hearts contempt.

I simply heal through it. Till I dont have any resource left.
But why should I defend myself?
It is a sub par skill as it is now? Dont use it!
I really dont understand what is so hard or understand.

I‘m so sorry you can’t heal through the focused burst of „at least 3 players.“
The issue is that some classes don’t have the luxury to fall back on a class spam. But whatever, feels like I’m running in circles here.
Have fun and get ready for your next nerf requests.

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Here's what I don't understand:

If Dizzying Swing is so "easy" to counter, only good for killing noobs, etc, etc, what ability do you guys use to kill GOOD players? And why can't you use THAT mysterious ability to kill the noobs, too?

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Here's what I don't understand:

If Dizzying Swing is so "easy" to counter, only good for killing noobs, etc, etc, what ability do you guys use to kill GOOD players? And why can't you use THAT mysterious ability to kill the noobs, too?