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Remove the stun on every weapon to balance with Dizzy Swing
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Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Oh and what you could do on your mag toon against dizzy? Simply walk through your opponent for no freaking cost. The same thing you were able to do for the last five years.
I swear, you guys aren’t satisfied until each and every skill is in the gutter.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
By making it stamina and single target you leave 2 ultimates to pick from and with brp 2h uppercut can be an aoe, however thats not the point the basic fact is that wrecking blow hit harder than Meteor, dawnbreaker, soul harvest and empowering sweep, if the ability was working as intended it wouldn’t be getting such a heavy blow dealt to it would it?
It doesn't.
Let's take a look at the UESP build editor for current live patch. That means before the nerf.
Without anything spend or slotted, just tooltips on a naked new char.- Dizzy 1.159 (-16% should be 973 on pts)
- Onslaught 1.438
- DBoS 1.273 +1.525 DoT (over 6s)
- Meteor 1.438 (SS) + 410 DoT (11s, every sec) or 1.633 (IC) + 466 DoT (11s, every sec)
- Leap 1.495 (FL) or 1.725 (TF)
- Death Stroke 1.314
- Radial Sweep 848 + 410 DoT (6s, 2s intervall)
For scaling you have to do your own homework. Or maybe, if I find the time, I'll hop on the PTS and do a standard darkelf build with Shackle and Julianos/ Hundings etc. No promises on that.
Anyway, your line of reasoning is a bit off. First off, the official explanation why nerfed it is because it doesn't fit the DoT standard anymore. DoTs will get unnerfed by 20%, that should mean it the excuse for 16% less dmg on Uppercut won't cut it anymore.
They never lost a word on why it doesn't stun. We could guess that it's because they don't want stuns on high damage abilites. Someone can surely dig up the patch notes in which they statet that. Fair game then, but that doesn't warrant the double nerf.Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 16% to ensure it does not eclipse other damage abilities such as DoTs.
So if you ask me personally why they went for a "heavy blow to it", then I'd say it's not because it isn't working as intended. People cried too loud, that's all. But why is that so? I think we have to take a look on the recent updates.Update 22:
Update 23:Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and its morphs by 14% to make up for the removal of the post global noted above. Note this will result in a 6% overall DPS increase when used in quick succession.Uppercut:
Reduced the cast time of this ability and its morphs to 0.8 seconds from 1 second to help its reliability when being used in fast combat in melee range.
Reduced the base cost to 2700 from 3240.
Increased the damage from this ability by approximately 9%.Puncture:
Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%, but reduced the cost to 1350 from 1701.Low Slash: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and the Heroic Slash morph by approximately 31%. These two abilities will also no longer snare targets.Hidden Blade: Reworked this ability from a ranged spammable into a utility skill.
Increased the cost to 3780 from 2970.
Reduced their range to 22 meters from 28 meters.
Reduced the damage dealt by approximately 25%.
See what happened? They nerfed 3 alternatives while they cut down the cast time by 20% and increased the damage back up a bit (but mind you, it's still below it's tooltip from U21, even tho only by around 8%).
So of course people hopped on it. It became kinda omnipresent because what else would you use on certain classes? People saw it more often on their death recaps. So there's reason number one.
Number two is peoples PoV and the lag. They come to the forums claiming that they got hit by a dizzy while being out of range. *** like this happens in heavy lag. It also happens with other skills. But lag also exists for the swinger. Have you tried landing dizzy in a bigger battle? Then you'd see it goes both ways. Can't count how often my char held off that swing for far too long. But Zeni promised better performance soon... again.
Thirdly the knockbar issue. It's an annoying and sometimes game changing bug. ZoS finally decided to work on it by making the animation faster. But instead of going to test how it does play out they straight went overboard again and took it off.
Tl;dR
Nerfed alternatives, bad server performance and bugs led to all the outrage over dizzy, which in turn caused the far to heavy nerfs. Wouldn't be the first time that Zeni bend over to the loudest group.
Or do you dare to say that every nerf was made for the right reasons with all the right magnitudes?
No dizzying swing is the same as when cfrag had a cc on it and surprise attack had major fracture on it, no ability that hits that hard should have such secondary utility, I play with ~300-500ms of lag from OCE on NA servers and even with my unbearable level of lag and barely being able to hit it I still take wblow on a dot build stamplar over javelin, turn evil and silver leash purely because it hits at least twice as hard as these, a lot of the time I use it over jabs because of glyph proc and i can get 2-3 wrecking blows off in the same time as one jabs takes.
Maybe it hits harder because these are instant, ranged, AoE, pulls and not bound to a weapon line? Hyberpoble and changing goal posts won't serve you well. First you claimed it hits harder than Ultimates. Now you get 3 Dizzys off before you finish a 1s channel. If you're able to weave light attacks between your jabs you will proc glyphs regardless. I'm sorry about your lag issue but that should never be the basis to build nerfs upon.
Do you really try to compare ULTIMATES and a COMMON spamable skill in terms of damage? LOL. Dizzy is nobrainer skill right now, there is nothing skillfull or challenging in using it, you just mash that button untill your target jumps in the air, you use onslaught that can't be blocked or dodged because of KB bug, you recieve unmitigated executioner spam 7-10k.
What can someone do vs Dizzy when playing magicka? You can't hold block longer than few seconds, you can't roll it more than twice. It's a death sentence unless you know how to use shade and cloak or you are sorc and you can streak through guy. NO HARD HITTING SPAMABLE SKILL SHOULD HAVE CC. PERIOD. It doesn't matter would it be magicka or stamina skill.
Do you intentionally read this wrong to farm some agrees? That dude said several times that dizzy hits harder than Ultimates. Which it doesnt. After that he claimed he can get off 3 times an 0.8s ct skill before he finishes off an 1s channel. That is nothing more of less than what I said: overexaggeration and goal post moving. If you want a serious discussion, than thats not the way to go
Curently i am somewhat fine with off balance instead of a kb (even tho they should have given us time to test how it works out on the new cc behavior). But I am certainly not fine with the double nerf, the-16% on dmg (especially with the excuse about dot power that gets revertet).
Fyi some classes cant fall back on class Spams. Dots are nerfed too. That means less pressure and less burst. But i guess that is totally fine to you.
How I love such manipulators of the truth. What do you say about the fact that any "good" dizzy spammer can have 20-30 kills at the end of the match? Yes he hits more than some ults even if you hit heavy armor. Hope I helped with a solution to your problem why -15% damage. In its own way, this is even greater evil than dots.Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on October 5, 2019 6:28PM1 -
Azramel✭✭✭2h is getting nerfed really hard since last patch. First zos takes away the snare, then the hard cc, not to mention the damage nerfs. Honestly, its overkill. Bad pvp players are still going to complain about dying to dizzy spammers simply because they are bad pvp players. Doesn't mean that the entire skill line needs to get nerfed to ground to the point where its not even viable in many builds. Especially when use by classes that don't have stamina based hard cc or snares to begin with, which is almost all of them.
2H is now the only weapon skill line with no snare, root, or disables (stuns, fears etc). Which, *hint hint for any bad pvp players*, are the only crowd controls that matter for pvp.2 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭2h is getting nerfed really hard since last patch. First zos takes away the snare, then the hard cc, not to mention the damage nerfs. Honestly, its overkill. Bad pvp players are still going to complain about dying to dizzy spammers simply because they are bad pvp players. Doesn't mean that the entire skill line needs to get nerfed to ground to the point where its not even viable in many builds. Especially when use by classes that don't have stamina based hard cc or snares to begin with, which is almost all of them.
2H is now the only weapon skill line with no snare, root, or disables (stuns, fears etc). Which, *hint hint for any bad pvp players*, are the only crowd controls that matter for pvp.
Then maybe just maybe use other weapon? Maybe skills with CC shouldn't hit like a truck? 2h still gives biggest burst off all weapons, if you want have crowd controll you can simply slot turn evil - literally best CC in the game if you say it is so important. I know you would have to use skill slot to have it, like every other player and that CC wouldn't be as effective as bugged knock back but maybe it's time to learn how to play without cheese all-in-one skill.I'm done with this game because of ZOS pushing us into Vengeance, because they don't know how to fix Cyrodiil.2 -
Canned_Apples✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Oh and what you could do on your mag toon against dizzy? Simply walk through your opponent for no freaking cost. The same thing you were able to do for the last five years.
I swear, you guys aren’t satisfied until each and every skill is in the gutter.
You can't do that anymore. I've tried it on mag and stam classes. The reduction in cast time and sped up animation make it impossible to do so.
Skill is overloaded, bro. Get over it.2 -
TheHsN✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dizzy Swing is the best spamable skill in the game. Hits too much and knockbacks players. I think removing stuns was just. But know they need to reduce cooldown a little bit more and maybe increase the damage %10 more...
Plays:
Magicka SORC - PvE/PvP
Stamina NB - PvE/PvP
Magicka NB - PvE/PvP
Magicka Templar - PvE
Stamina Templar - PvP
Magicka DK - PvE
Stamina DK - PvE0 -
Davadin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
There was no need to touch the skill in the first place. I said it before and Ill say it again
It had a longer cast time for a reason and nobody was complaining about it being op because groups of people weren't able to SPAM it with its buggy knockback. You may have got hit by one not 3 before you could break free like we have now..
Totally agree. But even after they sped it up half the people wouldn't complain if they fixed their damn knockback issues and the server lag. Funny enough they worked on the knockback just to remove it from DS before anyone could test it. So it seems we're stuck with this stuff now. Next month people will complain about the next best thing that people will use, Turn evil would be my guess.
I keep seeing people say this, but no one will complain about a stun that doesn't do damage. There's a huge difference between that and dizzy swing.
Also, I've been spamming turn evil all day and night on all my mag builds on live and no one has complained yet
and knockback too.
it's one thing to have 1 stun, another to have it with almost unbreakable knockback.
but turn evil is aoe though so there's that.
i like it for the regen and defend.August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber0 -
StrandedMonkey✭✭✭✭Then maybe just maybe use other weapon? Maybe skills with CC shouldn't hit like a truck? 2h still gives biggest burst off all weapons, if you want have crowd controll you can simply slot turn evil - literally best CC in the game if you say it is so important. I know you would have to use skill slot to have it, like every other player and that CC wouldn't be as effective as bugged knock back but maybe it's time to learn how to play without cheese all-in-one skill.
Turn Evil is one of the most expensive CC's in the game, and the only reason that it's notable is that it is the only stamina CC available for all classes. There is a reason that it has a 4k stamina cost and such a small radius to CC people.
0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
By making it stamina and single target you leave 2 ultimates to pick from and with brp 2h uppercut can be an aoe, however thats not the point the basic fact is that wrecking blow hit harder than Meteor, dawnbreaker, soul harvest and empowering sweep, if the ability was working as intended it wouldn’t be getting such a heavy blow dealt to it would it?
It doesn't.
Let's take a look at the UESP build editor for current live patch. That means before the nerf.
Without anything spend or slotted, just tooltips on a naked new char.- Dizzy 1.159 (-16% should be 973 on pts)
- Onslaught 1.438
- DBoS 1.273 +1.525 DoT (over 6s)
- Meteor 1.438 (SS) + 410 DoT (11s, every sec) or 1.633 (IC) + 466 DoT (11s, every sec)
- Leap 1.495 (FL) or 1.725 (TF)
- Death Stroke 1.314
- Radial Sweep 848 + 410 DoT (6s, 2s intervall)
For scaling you have to do your own homework. Or maybe, if I find the time, I'll hop on the PTS and do a standard darkelf build with Shackle and Julianos/ Hundings etc. No promises on that.
Anyway, your line of reasoning is a bit off. First off, the official explanation why nerfed it is because it doesn't fit the DoT standard anymore. DoTs will get unnerfed by 20%, that should mean it the excuse for 16% less dmg on Uppercut won't cut it anymore.
They never lost a word on why it doesn't stun. We could guess that it's because they don't want stuns on high damage abilites. Someone can surely dig up the patch notes in which they statet that. Fair game then, but that doesn't warrant the double nerf.Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 16% to ensure it does not eclipse other damage abilities such as DoTs.
So if you ask me personally why they went for a "heavy blow to it", then I'd say it's not because it isn't working as intended. People cried too loud, that's all. But why is that so? I think we have to take a look on the recent updates.Update 22:
Update 23:Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and its morphs by 14% to make up for the removal of the post global noted above. Note this will result in a 6% overall DPS increase when used in quick succession.Uppercut:
Reduced the cast time of this ability and its morphs to 0.8 seconds from 1 second to help its reliability when being used in fast combat in melee range.
Reduced the base cost to 2700 from 3240.
Increased the damage from this ability by approximately 9%.Puncture:
Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%, but reduced the cost to 1350 from 1701.Low Slash: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and the Heroic Slash morph by approximately 31%. These two abilities will also no longer snare targets.Hidden Blade: Reworked this ability from a ranged spammable into a utility skill.
Increased the cost to 3780 from 2970.
Reduced their range to 22 meters from 28 meters.
Reduced the damage dealt by approximately 25%.
See what happened? They nerfed 3 alternatives while they cut down the cast time by 20% and increased the damage back up a bit (but mind you, it's still below it's tooltip from U21, even tho only by around 8%).
So of course people hopped on it. It became kinda omnipresent because what else would you use on certain classes? People saw it more often on their death recaps. So there's reason number one.
Number two is peoples PoV and the lag. They come to the forums claiming that they got hit by a dizzy while being out of range. *** like this happens in heavy lag. It also happens with other skills. But lag also exists for the swinger. Have you tried landing dizzy in a bigger battle? Then you'd see it goes both ways. Can't count how often my char held off that swing for far too long. But Zeni promised better performance soon... again.
Thirdly the knockbar issue. It's an annoying and sometimes game changing bug. ZoS finally decided to work on it by making the animation faster. But instead of going to test how it does play out they straight went overboard again and took it off.
Tl;dR
Nerfed alternatives, bad server performance and bugs led to all the outrage over dizzy, which in turn caused the far to heavy nerfs. Wouldn't be the first time that Zeni bend over to the loudest group.
Or do you dare to say that every nerf was made for the right reasons with all the right magnitudes?
No dizzying swing is the same as when cfrag had a cc on it and surprise attack had major fracture on it, no ability that hits that hard should have such secondary utility, I play with ~300-500ms of lag from OCE on NA servers and even with my unbearable level of lag and barely being able to hit it I still take wblow on a dot build stamplar over javelin, turn evil and silver leash purely because it hits at least twice as hard as these, a lot of the time I use it over jabs because of glyph proc and i can get 2-3 wrecking blows off in the same time as one jabs takes.
Maybe it hits harder because these are instant, ranged, AoE, pulls and not bound to a weapon line? Hyberpoble and changing goal posts won't serve you well. First you claimed it hits harder than Ultimates. Now you get 3 Dizzys off before you finish a 1s channel. If you're able to weave light attacks between your jabs you will proc glyphs regardless. I'm sorry about your lag issue but that should never be the basis to build nerfs upon.
Do you really try to compare ULTIMATES and a COMMON spamable skill in terms of damage? LOL. Dizzy is nobrainer skill right now, there is nothing skillfull or challenging in using it, you just mash that button untill your target jumps in the air, you use onslaught that can't be blocked or dodged because of KB bug, you recieve unmitigated executioner spam 7-10k.
What can someone do vs Dizzy when playing magicka? You can't hold block longer than few seconds, you can't roll it more than twice. It's a death sentence unless you know how to use shade and cloak or you are sorc and you can streak through guy. NO HARD HITTING SPAMABLE SKILL SHOULD HAVE CC. PERIOD. It doesn't matter would it be magicka or stamina skill.
Do you intentionally read this wrong to farm some agrees? That dude said several times that dizzy hits harder than Ultimates. Which it doesnt. After that he claimed he can get off 3 times an 0.8s ct skill before he finishes off an 1s channel. That is nothing more of less than what I said: overexaggeration and goal post moving. If you want a serious discussion, than thats not the way to go
Curently i am somewhat fine with off balance instead of a kb (even tho they should have given us time to test how it works out on the new cc behavior). But I am certainly not fine with the double nerf, the-16% on dmg (especially with the excuse about dot power that gets revertet).
Fyi some classes cant fall back on class Spams. Dots are nerfed too. That means less pressure and less burst. But i guess that is totally fine to you.
How I love such manipulators of the truth. What do you say about the fact that any "good" dizzy spammer can have 20-30 kills at the end of the match? Yes he hits more than some ults even if you hit heavy armor. Hope I helped with a solution to your problem why -15% damage. In its own way, this is even greater evil than dots.
No, you didn’t helped in the slightest and I am still eager to see which single target ultimate hits for less than dizzy. Go ahead and show me. Otherwise you are just repeating stuff you read on somewhere.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Canned_Apples wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Oh and what you could do on your mag toon against dizzy? Simply walk through your opponent for no freaking cost. The same thing you were able to do for the last five years.
I swear, you guys aren’t satisfied until each and every skill is in the gutter.
You can't do that anymore. I've tried it on mag and stam classes. The reduction in cast time and sped up animation make it impossible to do so.
Skill is overloaded, bro. Get over it.
It’s harder but it’s not impossible to cancel a dizzy via movement. Believe me, I do it and people do it to me. Maybe you just get outplayed. Get over it. But I’d be totally fine if they put the cast time back up again.0 -
Trian94✭✭✭✭I see some people here want a spammable in the destro staff that has equal damage to dizzying swing (even with the same cast time). For some reason, in their heads, a ranged heavy hitting attack is balanced. So having to take no risk to use it from range and deal tons of damage is acceptable. Furthermore what's the point of using grim focus or frags then?PC EU
Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn1 -
Nicalas✭✭✭BTW with the new change to Off balance, The Armor of Truth set will be extremely good. 450 weapon damage without a CD whenever you land a dizzy could be a nice buff.
Off balance has a cool down on when it can be reapplied to players. I believe it’s 20 seconds after the debuff expires. Could be less though.
Edited by Nicalas on October 7, 2019 1:24PM0 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I see some people here want a spammable in the destro staff that has equal damage to dizzying swing (even with the same cast time). For some reason, in their heads, a ranged heavy hitting attack is balanced. So having to take no risk to use it from range and deal tons of damage is acceptable. Furthermore what's the point of using grim focus or frags then?
If you would read good you would know magicka players would gladly exchange clench for exactly the same skill as dizzy, meaning the range, the cast time, being uninterruptible and most off all the damage. Simple copy 1 to 1. Seven meters of range is meaningless when we talk about 3-4 times bigger damage.I'm done with this game because of ZOS pushing us into Vengeance, because they don't know how to fix Cyrodiil.0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BTW with the new change to Off balance, The Armor of Truth set will be extremely good. 450 weapon damage without a CD whenever you land a dizzy could be a nice buff.
Off balance has a cool down on when it can be reapplied to players. I believe it’s 20 seconds after the debuff expires. Could be less though.
Off balance has a cooldown in PvE, which is 20 seconds on NPC´s.
In PvP however, there's no cooldown on players. The off-balance debuff is removed if the target is stunned (assuming no cc immunity is present). For example, heavy attack on off-balanced target will stun them (unless they're cc immune, then the off-balance debuff won't be consumed)1 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StrandedMonkey wrote: »Then maybe just maybe use other weapon? Maybe skills with CC shouldn't hit like a truck? 2h still gives biggest burst off all weapons, if you want have crowd controll you can simply slot turn evil - literally best CC in the game if you say it is so important. I know you would have to use skill slot to have it, like every other player and that CC wouldn't be as effective as bugged knock back but maybe it's time to learn how to play without cheese all-in-one skill.
Turn Evil is one of the most expensive CC's in the game, and the only reason that it's notable is that it is the only stamina CC available for all classes. There is a reason that it has a 4k stamina cost and such a small radius to CC people.
Oh but it's undodgeable and unlockable and is aoe, and gives buffs to you, it's really the best CC in the game... And somehow magicka classes have no skill even close to dizzybor even turn evil, you'll be fine boys, such pro players will adapt.I'm done with this game because of ZOS pushing us into Vengeance, because they don't know how to fix Cyrodiil.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
By making it stamina and single target you leave 2 ultimates to pick from and with brp 2h uppercut can be an aoe, however thats not the point the basic fact is that wrecking blow hit harder than Meteor, dawnbreaker, soul harvest and empowering sweep, if the ability was working as intended it wouldn’t be getting such a heavy blow dealt to it would it?
It doesn't.
Let's take a look at the UESP build editor for current live patch. That means before the nerf.
Without anything spend or slotted, just tooltips on a naked new char.- Dizzy 1.159 (-16% should be 973 on pts)
- Onslaught 1.438
- DBoS 1.273 +1.525 DoT (over 6s)
- Meteor 1.438 (SS) + 410 DoT (11s, every sec) or 1.633 (IC) + 466 DoT (11s, every sec)
- Leap 1.495 (FL) or 1.725 (TF)
- Death Stroke 1.314
- Radial Sweep 848 + 410 DoT (6s, 2s intervall)
For scaling you have to do your own homework. Or maybe, if I find the time, I'll hop on the PTS and do a standard darkelf build with Shackle and Julianos/ Hundings etc. No promises on that.
Anyway, your line of reasoning is a bit off. First off, the official explanation why nerfed it is because it doesn't fit the DoT standard anymore. DoTs will get unnerfed by 20%, that should mean it the excuse for 16% less dmg on Uppercut won't cut it anymore.
They never lost a word on why it doesn't stun. We could guess that it's because they don't want stuns on high damage abilites. Someone can surely dig up the patch notes in which they statet that. Fair game then, but that doesn't warrant the double nerf.Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 16% to ensure it does not eclipse other damage abilities such as DoTs.
So if you ask me personally why they went for a "heavy blow to it", then I'd say it's not because it isn't working as intended. People cried too loud, that's all. But why is that so? I think we have to take a look on the recent updates.Update 22:
Update 23:Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and its morphs by 14% to make up for the removal of the post global noted above. Note this will result in a 6% overall DPS increase when used in quick succession.Uppercut:
Reduced the cast time of this ability and its morphs to 0.8 seconds from 1 second to help its reliability when being used in fast combat in melee range.
Reduced the base cost to 2700 from 3240.
Increased the damage from this ability by approximately 9%.Puncture:
Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%, but reduced the cost to 1350 from 1701.Low Slash: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and the Heroic Slash morph by approximately 31%. These two abilities will also no longer snare targets.Hidden Blade: Reworked this ability from a ranged spammable into a utility skill.
Increased the cost to 3780 from 2970.
Reduced their range to 22 meters from 28 meters.
Reduced the damage dealt by approximately 25%.
See what happened? They nerfed 3 alternatives while they cut down the cast time by 20% and increased the damage back up a bit (but mind you, it's still below it's tooltip from U21, even tho only by around 8%).
So of course people hopped on it. It became kinda omnipresent because what else would you use on certain classes? People saw it more often on their death recaps. So there's reason number one.
Number two is peoples PoV and the lag. They come to the forums claiming that they got hit by a dizzy while being out of range. *** like this happens in heavy lag. It also happens with other skills. But lag also exists for the swinger. Have you tried landing dizzy in a bigger battle? Then you'd see it goes both ways. Can't count how often my char held off that swing for far too long. But Zeni promised better performance soon... again.
Thirdly the knockbar issue. It's an annoying and sometimes game changing bug. ZoS finally decided to work on it by making the animation faster. But instead of going to test how it does play out they straight went overboard again and took it off.
Tl;dR
Nerfed alternatives, bad server performance and bugs led to all the outrage over dizzy, which in turn caused the far to heavy nerfs. Wouldn't be the first time that Zeni bend over to the loudest group.
Or do you dare to say that every nerf was made for the right reasons with all the right magnitudes?
No dizzying swing is the same as when cfrag had a cc on it and surprise attack had major fracture on it, no ability that hits that hard should have such secondary utility, I play with ~300-500ms of lag from OCE on NA servers and even with my unbearable level of lag and barely being able to hit it I still take wblow on a dot build stamplar over javelin, turn evil and silver leash purely because it hits at least twice as hard as these, a lot of the time I use it over jabs because of glyph proc and i can get 2-3 wrecking blows off in the same time as one jabs takes.
Maybe it hits harder because these are instant, ranged, AoE, pulls and not bound to a weapon line? Hyberpoble and changing goal posts won't serve you well. First you claimed it hits harder than Ultimates. Now you get 3 Dizzys off before you finish a 1s channel. If you're able to weave light attacks between your jabs you will proc glyphs regardless. I'm sorry about your lag issue but that should never be the basis to build nerfs upon.
Do you really try to compare ULTIMATES and a COMMON spamable skill in terms of damage? LOL. Dizzy is nobrainer skill right now, there is nothing skillfull or challenging in using it, you just mash that button untill your target jumps in the air, you use onslaught that can't be blocked or dodged because of KB bug, you recieve unmitigated executioner spam 7-10k.
What can someone do vs Dizzy when playing magicka? You can't hold block longer than few seconds, you can't roll it more than twice. It's a death sentence unless you know how to use shade and cloak or you are sorc and you can streak through guy. NO HARD HITTING SPAMABLE SKILL SHOULD HAVE CC. PERIOD. It doesn't matter would it be magicka or stamina skill.
Do you intentionally read this wrong to farm some agrees? That dude said several times that dizzy hits harder than Ultimates. Which it doesnt. After that he claimed he can get off 3 times an 0.8s ct skill before he finishes off an 1s channel. That is nothing more of less than what I said: overexaggeration and goal post moving. If you want a serious discussion, than thats not the way to go
Curently i am somewhat fine with off balance instead of a kb (even tho they should have given us time to test how it works out on the new cc behavior). But I am certainly not fine with the double nerf, the-16% on dmg (especially with the excuse about dot power that gets revertet).
Fyi some classes cant fall back on class Spams. Dots are nerfed too. That means less pressure and less burst. But i guess that is totally fine to you.
How I love such manipulators of the truth. What do you say about the fact that any "good" dizzy spammer can have 20-30 kills at the end of the match? Yes he hits more than some ults even if you hit heavy armor. Hope I helped with a solution to your problem why -15% damage. In its own way, this is even greater evil than dots.
No, you didn’t helped in the slightest and I am still eager to see which single target ultimate hits for less than dizzy. Go ahead and show me. Otherwise you are just repeating stuff you read on somewhere.
There were no words about a single target in my text. I wrote that Dizzy hits more than some kinds of ult.1 -
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Oh and what you could do on your mag toon against dizzy? Simply walk through your opponent for no freaking cost. The same thing you were able to do for the last five years.
I swear, you guys aren’t satisfied until each and every skill is in the gutter.
You can't do that anymore. I've tried it on mag and stam classes. The reduction in cast time and sped up animation make it impossible to do so.
Skill is overloaded, bro. Get over it.
It’s harder but it’s not impossible to cancel a dizzy via movement. Believe me, I do it and people do it to me. Maybe you just get outplayed. Get over it. But I’d be totally fine if they put the cast time back up again.
You understand if only return old time cast, need return the old Onslaught. Why it seems to me that the Dizzy will not be interesting to you afterwards.Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on October 7, 2019 2:16PM0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
By making it stamina and single target you leave 2 ultimates to pick from and with brp 2h uppercut can be an aoe, however thats not the point the basic fact is that wrecking blow hit harder than Meteor, dawnbreaker, soul harvest and empowering sweep, if the ability was working as intended it wouldn’t be getting such a heavy blow dealt to it would it?
It doesn't.
Let's take a look at the UESP build editor for current live patch. That means before the nerf.
Without anything spend or slotted, just tooltips on a naked new char.- Dizzy 1.159 (-16% should be 973 on pts)
- Onslaught 1.438
- DBoS 1.273 +1.525 DoT (over 6s)
- Meteor 1.438 (SS) + 410 DoT (11s, every sec) or 1.633 (IC) + 466 DoT (11s, every sec)
- Leap 1.495 (FL) or 1.725 (TF)
- Death Stroke 1.314
- Radial Sweep 848 + 410 DoT (6s, 2s intervall)
For scaling you have to do your own homework. Or maybe, if I find the time, I'll hop on the PTS and do a standard darkelf build with Shackle and Julianos/ Hundings etc. No promises on that.
Anyway, your line of reasoning is a bit off. First off, the official explanation why nerfed it is because it doesn't fit the DoT standard anymore. DoTs will get unnerfed by 20%, that should mean it the excuse for 16% less dmg on Uppercut won't cut it anymore.
They never lost a word on why it doesn't stun. We could guess that it's because they don't want stuns on high damage abilites. Someone can surely dig up the patch notes in which they statet that. Fair game then, but that doesn't warrant the double nerf.Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 16% to ensure it does not eclipse other damage abilities such as DoTs.
So if you ask me personally why they went for a "heavy blow to it", then I'd say it's not because it isn't working as intended. People cried too loud, that's all. But why is that so? I think we have to take a look on the recent updates.Update 22:
Update 23:Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and its morphs by 14% to make up for the removal of the post global noted above. Note this will result in a 6% overall DPS increase when used in quick succession.Uppercut:
Reduced the cast time of this ability and its morphs to 0.8 seconds from 1 second to help its reliability when being used in fast combat in melee range.
Reduced the base cost to 2700 from 3240.
Increased the damage from this ability by approximately 9%.Puncture:
Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%, but reduced the cost to 1350 from 1701.Low Slash: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and the Heroic Slash morph by approximately 31%. These two abilities will also no longer snare targets.Hidden Blade: Reworked this ability from a ranged spammable into a utility skill.
Increased the cost to 3780 from 2970.
Reduced their range to 22 meters from 28 meters.
Reduced the damage dealt by approximately 25%.
See what happened? They nerfed 3 alternatives while they cut down the cast time by 20% and increased the damage back up a bit (but mind you, it's still below it's tooltip from U21, even tho only by around 8%).
So of course people hopped on it. It became kinda omnipresent because what else would you use on certain classes? People saw it more often on their death recaps. So there's reason number one.
Number two is peoples PoV and the lag. They come to the forums claiming that they got hit by a dizzy while being out of range. *** like this happens in heavy lag. It also happens with other skills. But lag also exists for the swinger. Have you tried landing dizzy in a bigger battle? Then you'd see it goes both ways. Can't count how often my char held off that swing for far too long. But Zeni promised better performance soon... again.
Thirdly the knockbar issue. It's an annoying and sometimes game changing bug. ZoS finally decided to work on it by making the animation faster. But instead of going to test how it does play out they straight went overboard again and took it off.
Tl;dR
Nerfed alternatives, bad server performance and bugs led to all the outrage over dizzy, which in turn caused the far to heavy nerfs. Wouldn't be the first time that Zeni bend over to the loudest group.
Or do you dare to say that every nerf was made for the right reasons with all the right magnitudes?
No dizzying swing is the same as when cfrag had a cc on it and surprise attack had major fracture on it, no ability that hits that hard should have such secondary utility, I play with ~300-500ms of lag from OCE on NA servers and even with my unbearable level of lag and barely being able to hit it I still take wblow on a dot build stamplar over javelin, turn evil and silver leash purely because it hits at least twice as hard as these, a lot of the time I use it over jabs because of glyph proc and i can get 2-3 wrecking blows off in the same time as one jabs takes.
Maybe it hits harder because these are instant, ranged, AoE, pulls and not bound to a weapon line? Hyberpoble and changing goal posts won't serve you well. First you claimed it hits harder than Ultimates. Now you get 3 Dizzys off before you finish a 1s channel. If you're able to weave light attacks between your jabs you will proc glyphs regardless. I'm sorry about your lag issue but that should never be the basis to build nerfs upon.
Do you really try to compare ULTIMATES and a COMMON spamable skill in terms of damage? LOL. Dizzy is nobrainer skill right now, there is nothing skillfull or challenging in using it, you just mash that button untill your target jumps in the air, you use onslaught that can't be blocked or dodged because of KB bug, you recieve unmitigated executioner spam 7-10k.
What can someone do vs Dizzy when playing magicka? You can't hold block longer than few seconds, you can't roll it more than twice. It's a death sentence unless you know how to use shade and cloak or you are sorc and you can streak through guy. NO HARD HITTING SPAMABLE SKILL SHOULD HAVE CC. PERIOD. It doesn't matter would it be magicka or stamina skill.
Do you intentionally read this wrong to farm some agrees? That dude said several times that dizzy hits harder than Ultimates. Which it doesnt. After that he claimed he can get off 3 times an 0.8s ct skill before he finishes off an 1s channel. That is nothing more of less than what I said: overexaggeration and goal post moving. If you want a serious discussion, than thats not the way to go
Curently i am somewhat fine with off balance instead of a kb (even tho they should have given us time to test how it works out on the new cc behavior). But I am certainly not fine with the double nerf, the-16% on dmg (especially with the excuse about dot power that gets revertet).
Fyi some classes cant fall back on class Spams. Dots are nerfed too. That means less pressure and less burst. But i guess that is totally fine to you.
How I love such manipulators of the truth. What do you say about the fact that any "good" dizzy spammer can have 20-30 kills at the end of the match? Yes he hits more than some ults even if you hit heavy armor. Hope I helped with a solution to your problem why -15% damage. In its own way, this is even greater evil than dots.
No, you didn’t helped in the slightest and I am still eager to see which single target ultimate hits for less than dizzy. Go ahead and show me. Otherwise you are just repeating stuff you read on somewhere.
There were no words about a single target in my text. I wrote that Dizzy hits more than some kinds of ult.
So you Are comparing a single target melee cast time skill with what? A ranged aoe? What would be the point in that beside pushing an agenda?OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Oh and what you could do on your mag toon against dizzy? Simply walk through your opponent for no freaking cost. The same thing you were able to do for the last five years.
I swear, you guys aren’t satisfied until each and every skill is in the gutter.
You can't do that anymore. I've tried it on mag and stam classes. The reduction in cast time and sped up animation make it impossible to do so.
Skill is overloaded, bro. Get over it.
It’s harder but it’s not impossible to cancel a dizzy via movement. Believe me, I do it and people do it to me. Maybe you just get outplayed. Get over it. But I’d be totally fine if they put the cast time back up again.
You understand if return old time cast, need return the old Onslaught. Why it seems to me that the Dizzy will not be interesting to you afterwards.
Why would you need to change onslaught if you make dizzys cast time longer? I used ds for years. Yes, before they reduced damage and cast time. Before they buffed onslaught. Before they killed most other spams. In short: before zos pushed us into using it and people complained about the last good generic spam.0 -
Nicalas✭✭✭BTW with the new change to Off balance, The Armor of Truth set will be extremely good. 450 weapon damage without a CD whenever you land a dizzy could be a nice buff.
Off balance has a cool down on when it can be reapplied to players. I believe it’s 20 seconds after the debuff expires. Could be less though.
Off balance has a cooldown in PvE, which is 20 seconds on NPC´s.
In PvP however, there's no cooldown on players. The off-balance debuff is removed if the target is stunned (assuming no cc immunity is present). For example, heavy attack on off-balanced target will stun them (unless they're cc immune, then the off-balance debuff won't be consumed)
I stand corrected. Tested it in duels and was able to apply again.0 -
holden_caulfield✭✭✭The only pvp that I play are battlegrounds.
I'm an healer.
So u are telling me that when I'm focused by at least 3 players all casting DS I should do what exactly?
Yes, It's a noob killer. So why everybody just spam it?
Its sad seeing all these people defending an almost I win skill.
You know as well as I know u wouldnt be so vocal if almost all your pvp performance wouldnt depend on this skill.
Sorry for my bad english1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭holden_caulfield wrote: »The only pvp that I play are battlegrounds.
I'm an healer.
So u are telling me that when I'm focused by at least 3 players all casting DS I should do what exactly?
Yes, It's a noob killer. So why everybody just spam it?
Its sad seeing all these people defending an almost I win skill.
You know as well as I know u wouldnt be so vocal if almost all your pvp performance wouldnt depend on this skill.
Sorry for my bad english
What do you do when „at least 3 players“ focus you with any skill?
People are vocal because they depend on it - on classes that don’t have anything else to spam. Give dk, sorc etc. a decent spam and you can cripple ds to your hearts contempt.0 -
Demra✭✭✭Ppl that advocate having a ranged spell with high damage is the same as having an easily avoidable melee skill with high damage, clearly never used dizzy and lack perspective.Edited by Demra on October 7, 2019 2:51PM1
-
holden_caulfield✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »holden_caulfield wrote: »The only pvp that I play are battlegrounds.
I'm an healer.
So u are telling me that when I'm focused by at least 3 players all casting DS I should do what exactly?
Yes, It's a noob killer. So why everybody just spam it?
Its sad seeing all these people defending an almost I win skill.
You know as well as I know u wouldnt be so vocal if almost all your pvp performance wouldnt depend on this skill.
Sorry for my bad english
What do you do when „at least 3 players“ focus you with any skill?
People are vocal because they depend on it - on classes that don’t have anything else to spam. Give dk, sorc etc. a decent spam and you can cripple ds to your hearts contempt.
I simply heal through it. Till I dont have any resource left.
But why should I defend myself?
It is a sub par skill as it is now? Dont use it!
I really dont understand what is so hard or understand.
1vs1 in a caotic scenario. First DS hit like a truck. Time to break free! Second DS coming. Add any other skill you are in execute range. Game over.
And no Im not made of paper. Im @30k PR and usually with minor protectionEdited by holden_caulfield on October 7, 2019 2:53PM1 -
holden_caulfield wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »holden_caulfield wrote: »The only pvp that I play are battlegrounds.
I'm an healer.
So u are telling me that when I'm focused by at least 3 players all casting DS I should do what exactly?
Yes, It's a noob killer. So why everybody just spam it?
Its sad seeing all these people defending an almost I win skill.
You know as well as I know u wouldnt be so vocal if almost all your pvp performance wouldnt depend on this skill.
Sorry for my bad english
What do you do when „at least 3 players“ focus you with any skill?
People are vocal because they depend on it - on classes that don’t have anything else to spam. Give dk, sorc etc. a decent spam and you can cripple ds to your hearts contempt.
I simply heal through it. Till I dont have any resource left.
But why should I defend myself?
It is a sub par skill as it is now? Dont use it!
I really dont understand what is so hard or understand.
1vs1 in a caotic scenario. First DS hit like a truck. Time to break free! Second DS coming. Add any other skill you are in execute range. Game over.
And no Im not made of paper. Im @30k PR and usually with minor protection
Yes you are right. Teams such as 2 dk with Dizzy + 2 warden with Dizzy can annihilate everything. Doesn't matter teams with healers or teams with range dots players.
Sorry my bad english too.Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on October 7, 2019 3:13PM0 -
holden_caulfield✭✭✭Ppl that advocate having a ranged spell with high damage is the same as having an easily avoidable melee skill with high damage, clearly never used dizzy and lack perspective.
And I am surely wrong but I think u only play duels.
Am I right?
Anyway about ranged. There is no ranged gameplay in this game pvp.
Everybody and his mother has a gap closer or a pull. As a caster you Can only...well...do nothing
FFS really I am the only One seeing that this game greatly favors melee?1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭holden_caulfield wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »holden_caulfield wrote: »The only pvp that I play are battlegrounds.
I'm an healer.
So u are telling me that when I'm focused by at least 3 players all casting DS I should do what exactly?
Yes, It's a noob killer. So why everybody just spam it?
Its sad seeing all these people defending an almost I win skill.
You know as well as I know u wouldnt be so vocal if almost all your pvp performance wouldnt depend on this skill.
Sorry for my bad english
What do you do when „at least 3 players“ focus you with any skill?
People are vocal because they depend on it - on classes that don’t have anything else to spam. Give dk, sorc etc. a decent spam and you can cripple ds to your hearts contempt.
I simply heal through it. Till I dont have any resource left.
But why should I defend myself?
It is a sub par skill as it is now? Dont use it!
I really dont understand what is so hard or understand.
I‘m so sorry you can’t heal through the focused burst of „at least 3 players.“
The issue is that some classes don’t have the luxury to fall back on a class spam. But whatever, feels like I’m running in circles here.
Have fun and get ready for your next nerf requests.0 -
holden_caulfield✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »holden_caulfield wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »holden_caulfield wrote: »The only pvp that I play are battlegrounds.
I'm an healer.
So u are telling me that when I'm focused by at least 3 players all casting DS I should do what exactly?
Yes, It's a noob killer. So why everybody just spam it?
Its sad seeing all these people defending an almost I win skill.
You know as well as I know u wouldnt be so vocal if almost all your pvp performance wouldnt depend on this skill.
Sorry for my bad english
What do you do when „at least 3 players“ focus you with any skill?
People are vocal because they depend on it - on classes that don’t have anything else to spam. Give dk, sorc etc. a decent spam and you can cripple ds to your hearts contempt.
I simply heal through it. Till I dont have any resource left.
But why should I defend myself?
It is a sub par skill as it is now? Dont use it!
I really dont understand what is so hard or understand.
I‘m so sorry you can’t heal through the focused burst of „at least 3 players.“
The issue is that some classes don’t have the luxury to fall back on a class spam. But whatever, feels like I’m running in circles here.
Have fun and get ready for your next nerf requests.
I didnt say that. Dont try to use those lexical little trick with me. I only dont know the language very well but Im not dumb.
Im talking about a caotic scenario. Once the First DS come throu the odds u Can recover from that are almost 0.
But why Im wasting my time?
Keep farm those stupid players who dont want to play a DS spamming melee.
And come here on the forums and call them noobs
More power to u sir1 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Here's what I don't understand:
If Dizzying Swing is so "easy" to counter, only good for killing noobs, etc, etc, what ability do you guys use to kill GOOD players? And why can't you use THAT mysterious ability to kill the noobs, too?#CAREBEARMASTERRACE3 -
holden_caulfield✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »Here's what I don't understand:
If Dizzying Swing is so "easy" to counter, only good for killing noobs, etc, etc, what ability do you guys use to kill GOOD players? And why can't you use THAT mysterious ability to kill the noobs, too?Emma_Overload wrote: »Here's what I don't understand:
If Dizzying Swing is so "easy" to counter, only good for killing noobs, etc, etc, what ability do you guys use to kill GOOD players? And why can't you use THAT mysterious ability to kill the noobs, too?
From pulp fiction:
I love you honey bunny1