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Introduce 810CP Group Finder option
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Alienoutlaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daddysadface wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Daddysadface wrote: »I still await a logical counter argument for my suggestion.
You've been told, dozens of times, CP does not relate to player skill, there is no value in your request. At which point you respond, "lolz, tl;dr."
So what your saying is that your position is that CP does not relate to difficulty of and to endgame instance(s) and the instance or activity being able to be achieved efficiently as if CP has no relevance in player progression? Please Link me a video of you and your friend(s) with 0 CP completing a DLC Dungeon Speed run/Hard mode/No Death or a newer non craig. vTrail HM SR/HM/ND.
So as it doesn't "relate to skill" it absolutely matters to player efficiency. And to me, that matters. A players time should be considered as a value not a default freebie to the devs nor other players.
Adding "Quality of Life" options takes nothing from the player base if implemented correctly. Having a button that can be checked or unchecked takes nothing away from the player base and if anything gives the player base incentive to once again possibly try a system that so many have already given up on for various reasons in the past.
gf.
what about all the 810's that cant even complete VMA yet a cp160 can? tell me cp matters there.0 -
Daddysadface✭✭✭vMA is a solo instance. Point? Your argument is so broad it could encompass any cp that has the potential of doing vMA. What about all the 300's that cant even complete vMA, what about all the 160, 161, 162.. cmon… Obviously the 810+ would have a greater chance of success based upon available CP over the same exact skilled player at 160. Not sure what your point is, nor am I sure you understand what this post is telling others about your logic or even knowledge of what CP is.
And these are the people that I have to run dungeons and trials with.. really..... really zos.... are you kidding me?0 -
LordGavus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I argee that adding a 810 check box hurts nobody. But I think you're over estimating the benefit.
Everybody has experiences of 810s that simply dont know what they are doing. And yes, the plural of anecdote isn't data, however it does point to the fact you will still get bad 810s.
A snipe spamming 810 will be just as effective as a snipe spamming 160 or 300.
I will concede that an 810 with no clue will probably remove themself from the queue as they wont know to tick it, but some still will.
All that aside though, i think the biggest issue is splitting the pool of players will increase queue times. Thats never good.
One final point, we have a saying in my guild, 'if you can't carry the group, don't pug it'2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Daddysadface wrote: »vMA is a solo instance. Point?
Point: vMA is an accurate tool for assessing player skill. While there is some bias that vMA most accurately measures a player's skill at clearing vMA, it is, however, an excellent illustration that skill is CP agnostic. Players who've spent the time learning vMA can clear without spending CP, while plenty of 810s are unable to clear nMA after copying their star charts from Alcast.Daddysadface wrote: »And these are the people that I have to run dungeons and trials with.. really..... really zos.... are you kidding me?
Yes. If you queue into a random dungeon, or run with a chat PUGed trial, you are expected to play with the people you play with. That's kinda the point of how that system works.4 -
Daddysadface✭✭✭It was only an idea, you got me. I honestly don't care. I'm jumping off this burning ship. Nothing but rats and nom noms pouring fuel onto the dumpster fire that is ZoS quality of life in ESO.
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Daddysadface wrote: »So what your saying is that your position is that CP does not relate to difficulty of and to endgame instance(s)...
No, but, you know what the irony about this straw man you just tried to set up? It's 100% correct.
CP does not relate to the difficulty of endgame instances. The game considers vICP and vMHK to be of equal difficulty, and gates them with the same CP prereq.Daddysadface wrote: »...and the instance or activity being able to be achieved efficiently as if CP has no relevance in player progression?
It is not a determinate factor.Daddysadface wrote: »Please Link me a video of you and your friend(s) with 0 CP completing a DLC Dungeon Speed run/Hard mode/No Death or a newer non craig. vTrail HM SR/HM/ND.
A friend getting Stamblade flawless in vMA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjmvspstSKYDaddysadface wrote: »So as it doesn't "relate to skill" it absolutely matters to player efficiency. And to me, that matters. A players time should be considered as a value not a default freebie to the devs nor other players.
So, you're saying that as a player, I should waste my time, doing a 40m speedrun of vHoF with no CP allocated just to demonstrate that there are players who can actually play the game, but your time shouldn't be wasted by an 810 snipe spammer in the queue... except, no, wait, you want that 810 snipe spammer, and his hard casting frag buddy, but you don't want the 640 who can actually parse 60k.
Riiiight.Daddysadface wrote: »Adding "Quality of Life" options takes nothing from the player base if implemented correctly.
In this case, that means not implementing it at all.4 -
SirLeeMinion✭✭✭✭✭
✭There are definitely problems with the group finder. Since they are reputedly overhauling it, I think it's great to see people making suggestions that might improve it.
Personally, I believe that separating out 810s would just make queue times longer for everybody. On the other hand, I can't agree with the generic, "just form a group of friends from guilds etc..." replies. I've seen too many LFGs dropped in guild chat that went unanswered despite 80+ people being online (this was before update 23 & 24 patch notes dropped, ofc). In raiding guilds, "LFG, must know mechanics" get answered pretty well, but nowhere else. It's instructive to wait 15 minutes after a LFG vet DLC chat goes out and see where the guildie is that posted it... seems they're usually still in Grahtwood.
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Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't think this plan is going to work as well as you hope. I have 1200 cp, and I still don't know the mechanics to most of the new dungeons. My impression is that there are many other players like me, especially the ones who PvP most of the time.
I think a better scheme would be to ask ZOS to quit making the dungeon mechanics so complicated. ESO endgame dungeons weren't nearly so hard the first year. Even Vet CoA was pretty simple to do, it just wasn't easy to stay alive while you were doing it. Back in those days the tank and healer roles were very important. Now they are just buff bots because mechanics matter more than healing or taunting.
All ZOS needs to do is make the dungeons fun again with obvious mechanics and no stupid one-shots. Then you will find that pugging dungeons will be an enjoyable experience as long as all 4 players perform their roles.
Edited by Emma_Overload on October 7, 2019 5:40AM#CAREBEARMASTERRACE4 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SirLeeMinion wrote: »There are definitely problems with the group finder. Since they are reputedly overhauling it, I think it's great to see people making suggestions that might improve it.
Personally, I believe that separating out 810s would just make queue times longer for everybody. On the other hand, I can't agree with the generic, "just form a group of friends from guilds etc..." replies. I've seen too many LFGs dropped in guild chat that went unanswered despite 80+ people being online (this was before update 23 & 24 patch notes dropped, ofc). In raiding guilds, "LFG, must know mechanics" get answered pretty well, but nowhere else. It's instructive to wait 15 minutes after a LFG vet DLC chat goes out and see where the guildie is that posted it... seems they're usually still in Grahtwood.
There's a part of this I'm sympathetic to. I've had runs where I was pulling north of 60% of group DPS on the tank. It's really frustrating because it takes runs that should be pretty smooth and fast and turns them into a long, drawn out, ****fest.
The irony is, an 810 exclusive queue would reduce the quality of players at that tier. We already see a lot of Skyreach babies who grind all the way up, stagger into the world, and can't tell their *** from their elbow. This would encourage that behavior.
The only real CP thresholds that matter are 160 (gear cap), 300 (you stop gaining stats from your spent CP, and you gain access to vet DLC dungeons in the group finder), and 810 (you cannot spend past this point.) Even then, the only time you really want to pull a player aside and ask them if they're sure is below 160, when they're not getting endgame drops.0 -
Alienoutlaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daddysadface wrote: »vMA is a solo instance. Point? Your argument is so broad it could encompass any cp that has the potential of doing vMA. What about all the 300's that cant even complete vMA, what about all the 160, 161, 162.. cmon… Obviously the 810+ would have a greater chance of success based upon available CP over the same exact skilled player at 160. Not sure what your point is, nor am I sure you understand what this post is telling others about your logic or even knowledge of what CP is.
And these are the people that I have to run dungeons and trials with.. really..... really zos.... are you kidding me?
you've answered my point............cp means nothing or proves nothing if a cp 160 is as skilled as an 810 why the need for an 810 button?
if anything you come across as very "elitest" and maybe even a touch salty, that may not be your intention but thats my perception1 -
Daddysadface✭✭✭I think the ESO community loves pain. In fact, addicted to it. I suppose it gives them something to complain about. I better never again make a quality of life suggestion. I feel like I am arguing with people from Plato's cave.
Ready, New idea. Keep playing ESO, saying ZoS doesn't know what they are doing and shooting down any suggestion that might actually change something in the game besides nerfing all the skill needed to play any given class in any given instance. Lets remove all the mechanics and just give people Log in Achievements every day.. oh wait, they do...
Do you guys even hear your own thoughts? What your asking for is a TV show, and in that show, you have no options though are given what you are told you should be forced fed. You complain, yet attack anyone that suggests a change...
And you wonder why all the classes have lost all identity and are sterilized. Because you wouldn't have it any other way. Least you have nothing to complain about.1 -
Daddysadface✭✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »Daddysadface wrote: »vMA is a solo instance. Point? Your argument is so broad it could encompass any cp that has the potential of doing vMA. What about all the 300's that cant even complete vMA, what about all the 160, 161, 162.. cmon… Obviously the 810+ would have a greater chance of success based upon available CP over the same exact skilled player at 160. Not sure what your point is, nor am I sure you understand what this post is telling others about your logic or even knowledge of what CP is.
And these are the people that I have to run dungeons and trials with.. really..... really zos.... are you kidding me?
you've answered my point............cp means nothing or proves nothing if a cp 160 is as skilled as an 810 why the need for an 810 button?
if anything you come across as very "elitest" and maybe even a touch salty, that may not be your intention but thats my perception
Insult is taken never given. What is it that you don't understand about efficiency. Can a Cp160 do the same thing yes, but with the same dps, the same resource management, the same defense, the same passives such as treasure hunter... no.. So there is a difference. You do understand there are people that are Min/Max. Such as myself... I like min/max. That doesn't mean I have to treat people like trash. I can, but I don't have to. And "Elitist" is someone that is blinded to only seeing what is perceived to be the TOP of the game. I offered a tool that would allow people to pull players from different player pools dependent on situation or activity and possibly take the "bad taste" out of peoples mouth that do have an "Elitist" attitude to give a game function another chance increasing the endgame player pool that uses "Group finder". All to have people say, it will never work, based on opinion and speculation. If nothing new is ever given a chance, then it is not deserved by the people it was offered to and will only be wasted...Edited by Daddysadface on October 7, 2019 6:01AM0 -
Daddysadface✭✭✭Why don't question me on why we don't cut food with spoons.. I mean, spoons are able to cut food too... I don't understand why we need knives is what you are saying to me... That is the logic I am getting from you.0
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LordGavus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daddysadface wrote: »Why don't question me on why we don't cut food with spoons.. I mean, spoons are able to cut food too... I don't understand why we need knives is what you are saying to me... That is the logic I am getting from you.
Well now you're just being silly.
The 2 main points which are totally vaild are:
CP doesnt equal skill
Splitting the player will increase queue times.
Spit balling new qol ideas is great, but sometimes they just aren't viable. It's nothing personal.2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Daddysadface wrote: »Why don't question me on why we don't cut food with spoons.. I mean, spoons are able to cut food too... I don't understand why we need knives is what you are saying to me... That is the logic I am getting from you.
No, that's a strawman fallacy.
It's different. Please try to stay on topic.0 -
Austinseph1✭✭✭✭✭Its funny because many of the 800+ cp players i meet in dungeons can still be pretty awful. Level =/= skill. Group finder is a tool and if you want something with higher minimum requirements just make your own group, no need to be lazy.0 -
nryerson1025✭✭✭✭My biggest issue with dungeon finder as it is is I find that the lower cp players not only refuse to take advice, but seem to do the very opposite of said advice, even if communicated in a kind, patient manner0 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daddysadface wrote: »Not all of us Veterans enjoy having to teach mechanics and even simple game play in dungeons that we have done hundreds or even thousands of times. Some of us do, but are then forced to carry the newer player through the dungeon, if possible with the newer dungeons having very heavy mechanics involved. I understand console players can explain mechanics using voip, but on pc we typically just type the information into the chat box if needed. This slows progress and makes a fun experience turn into a labor of love as you hope and pray the player can pick up and understand the explanation of the mechanics as it is given.. No, I'm not being "Elitist", I am suggesting an Idea that would actually entice players that normally would never "PUG" to once again give Group Finder a go on slow and boring days, or just to meet other end game players. I have always thought that mixing your "End game" players with "New" players by force will do nothing but aggravate all involved in any instance, dungeon or situation. I am sure the new players also don't enjoy having to be through dungeons that they have never seen before at a brake neck speed or kicked from group. ~ Just a thought. DDSF
Yes you are being elitist.
Also queue only for vet, you mostly solve your issues. Anything left over, you can survive. Leave group, wait 15 minutes, try again.
Unless you just whine for the sport. Then it's all good.0 -
wolfbone✭✭✭✭✭Daddysadface wrote: »Not all of us Veterans enjoy having to teach mechanics and even simple game play in dungeons that we have done hundreds or even thousands of times. Some of us do, but are then forced to carry the newer player through the dungeon, if possible with the newer dungeons having very heavy mechanics involved. I understand console players can explain mechanics using voip, but on pc we typically just type the information into the chat box if needed. This slows progress and makes a fun experience turn into a labor of love as you hope and pray the player can pick up and understand the explanation of the mechanics as it is given.. No, I'm not being "Elitist", I am suggesting an Idea that would actually entice players that normally would never "PUG" to once again give Group Finder a go on slow and boring days, or just to meet other end game players. I have always thought that mixing your "End game" players with "New" players by force will do nothing but aggravate all involved in any instance, dungeon or situation. I am sure the new players also don't enjoy having to be through dungeons that they have never seen before at a brake neck speed or kicked from group. ~ Just a thought. DDSF
so, you're saying that you're against p[alying with people who havent had the time to grind to 810 cp? I'm not being funny but if you cant run a dungeon with 3 people who arent max cp, you're not as good as you think. people like that are what put me off dungeons in the first place. 510cp yet apprently, I'm not good enough.1 -
wolfbone✭✭✭✭✭I'm not being funny, but your cp level doesn't really account for anything in the way of knowledge. I've done black heart haven with a bunch of people, who split in 3 different directions, then threw a fit cos I could keep them all alive. surprisingly, they where all max cp. so it's not guaranteed that max cp are high level.0
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FierceSam✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Not a great solution. CP is no indication of experience or ability, it’s just a measure of time served. I was CP450 before I set foot in a dungeon, had zero idea of either dungeons or group play. So while I would easily pass OP’s criteria, it would be no help in addressing the issue of player incompatibility.
Much, much, much better option would be to make the DLC dungeons an option so the many people who are ESO subscribers but haven’t mastered them don’t get inadvertently shoved into them.
Or maybe an “inconsiderate runner” option could be added to allow all those who simply want to rush through a dungeon without worrying about what their clearly useless companions wanted to do to be grouped together. Cos it’s easy to pull 90% of the dps when the rest of your group is already a room or so behind you. And the real issue in dungeons isn’t people who are new or learning, the issue is people who are experienced, have multiple characters and want to do the maximum number of daily random dungeons in the shortest period of time and bring a rancid attitude with them.
I’m not sure it’s quite the issue these bullrushers make it out to be. I’ve done many PUGs. I’ve had many, many good experiences and very, very few issues.I’ve had exactly one dungeon which had to be abandoned because players did not understand the mechanics (FG2 and the sword pin), and a few that wiped on the final boss or ran out of time. By far the biggest issue I have had is unfriendly rush ahead tossers who think the dungeon has been created just for them and don’t give a monkey’s about anyone else in the game.
Having a CP cap won’t change these people one bit.5 -
jircris11✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daddysadface wrote: »Not all of us Veterans enjoy having to teach mechanics and even simple game play in dungeons that we have done hundreds or even thousands of times. Some of us do, but are then forced to carry the newer player through the dungeon, if possible with the newer dungeons having very heavy mechanics involved. I understand console players can explain mechanics using voip, but on pc we typically just type the information into the chat box if needed. This slows progress and makes a fun experience turn into a labor of love as you hope and pray the player can pick up and understand the explanation of the mechanics as it is given.. No, I'm not being "Elitist", I am suggesting an Idea that would actually entice players that normally would never "PUG" to once again give Group Finder a go on slow and boring days, or just to meet other end game players. I have always thought that mixing your "End game" players with "New" players by force will do nothing but aggravate all involved in any instance, dungeon or situation. I am sure the new players also don't enjoy having to be through dungeons that they have never seen before at a brake neck speed or kicked from group. ~ Just a thought. DDSF
Cp means NOTHING its a number ANYONE can obtain without stepping foot in a dungeon. Besides if you cant help new players then dont freaking use group finder.IGN: Ki'rah
Khajiit/Vampire
DC/AD faction/NA server.
RPer0 -
Daedric_NB_187✭✭✭✭✭Daddysadface wrote: »It was only an idea, you got me. I honestly don't care. I'm jumping off this burning ship. Nothing but rats and nom noms pouring fuel onto the dumpster fire that is ZoS quality of life in ESO.
And there it is lol. Yeah. You care.0 -
redlink1979✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What a sad suggestion...
Don't want to run with strangers? Don't PUG....
And... If you really really really want/need to PUG and if you need to explain something/communicate to group members? Use the VOICE CHAT.........
And what would you say if you start playing now and vet players have this arrogant, and pointless, attitude towards you?!
Grow up."Sweet Mother, sweet Mother, send your child unto me, for the sins of the unworthy must be baptized in blood and fear"- Sons of the Night Mother | VforVendetta | Grownups Gaming EU | English Elders [PS][EU] 2500 CP
- Daggerfall's Mightiest | Eternal Champions | Legacy | Tamriel Melting Pot [PS][NA] 2300 CP
- SweetTrolls | Spring Rose | Daggerfall Royal Legion | Tinnitus Delux [PC][EU] 2525 CP
- Bacon Rats | Silverlight Brotherhood | Canis Root Tea Party | Vincula Doloris [PC][NA] 2300 CP
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Daddysadface✭✭✭/Sips coffee with a smile.
I have read every post up until this point. I just smile at the awesome community ESO has. Yep, that 810+ button looks more and more appealing every time I read a new post.Edited by Daddysadface on October 7, 2019 11:38AM0 -
Daddysadface✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Daddysadface wrote: »Why don't question me on why we don't cut food with spoons.. I mean, spoons are able to cut food too... I don't understand why we need knives is what you are saying to me... That is the logic I am getting from you.
No, that's a strawman fallacy.
It's different. Please try to stay on topic.
Its actually called an "analogy", it's for explanation purposes. Your welcome.0 -
Daddysadface✭✭✭Daddysadface wrote: »Not all of us Veterans enjoy having to teach mechanics and even simple game play in dungeons that we have done hundreds or even thousands of times. Some of us do, but are then forced to carry the newer player through the dungeon, if possible with the newer dungeons having very heavy mechanics involved. I understand console players can explain mechanics using voip, but on pc we typically just type the information into the chat box if needed. This slows progress and makes a fun experience turn into a labor of love as you hope and pray the player can pick up and understand the explanation of the mechanics as it is given.. No, I'm not being "Elitist", I am suggesting an Idea that would actually entice players that normally would never "PUG" to once again give Group Finder a go on slow and boring days, or just to meet other end game players. I have always thought that mixing your "End game" players with "New" players by force will do nothing but aggravate all involved in any instance, dungeon or situation. I am sure the new players also don't enjoy having to be through dungeons that they have never seen before at a brake neck speed or kicked from group. ~ Just a thought. DDSF
Cp means NOTHING its a number ANYONE can obtain without stepping foot in a dungeon. Besides if you cant help new players then dont freaking use group finder.
Another person that thinks "Group finder" translates to mentor system.0 -
Daddysadface✭✭✭Not a great solution. CP is no indication of experience or ability, it’s just a measure of time served. I was CP450 before I set foot in a dungeon, had zero idea of either dungeons or group play. So while I would easily pass OP’s criteria, it would be no help in addressing the issue of player incompatibility.
Much, much, much better option would be to make the DLC dungeons an option so the many people who are ESO subscribers but haven’t mastered them don’t get inadvertently shoved into them.
Or maybe an “inconsiderate runner” option could be added to allow all those who simply want to rush through a dungeon without worrying about what their clearly useless companions wanted to do to be grouped together. Cos it’s easy to pull 90% of the dps when the rest of your group is already a room or so behind you. And the real issue in dungeons isn’t people who are new or learning, the issue is people who are experienced, have multiple characters and want to do the maximum number of daily random dungeons in the shortest period of time and bring a rancid attitude with them.
I’m not sure it’s quite the issue these bullrushers make it out to be. I’ve done many PUGs. I’ve had many, many good experiences and very, very few issues.I’ve had exactly one dungeon which had to be abandoned because players did not understand the mechanics (FG2 and the sword pin), and a few that wiped on the final boss or ran out of time. By far the biggest issue I have had is unfriendly rush ahead tossers who think the dungeon has been created just for them and don’t give a monkey’s about anyone else in the game.
Having a CP cap won’t change these people one bit.
Cp is the only indication we have actually of potential player skill, gear, etc..., If you have a better idea, you should start a thread of your own. Not sure what your experience has to do with adding a button to group finder, nor any experience of anyone. The post is about a suggestion to add a 810+ only option to the group finder, not sure how that relates to certain people trying to rush through a dungeon, it's an individual thing, not a standard among 810+ players. Trust me, people who hold shift thinking it speeds up a dungeon annoy me also. To me group speed is based upon group efficiency not "bull rushing" through. Though sometimes "Skips" can save a lot of time if your willing to pay the meager soul gem cost vs time cost of having to kill every single mob. vICP is a great example.0 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daddysadface wrote: »/Sips coffee with a smile.
I have read every post up until this point. I just smile at the awesome community ESO has. Yep, that 810+ button looks more and more appealing every time I read a new post.
"I'm not being elitist". ... Huh... 😂... 😬.... 🤭.... 😝😂🤣🤣🤣2 -
Daddysadface✭✭✭Maybe They should add a "Mentor" button to the Group Finder, as more and more people have stated that it is their view that the "Group finder" is actually a training tool. So, beware if you think you might have a good pug, it seems more likely then not, you will be matched with people who want you to hold their hands and plvl them as you drag them and their 2 other friends with the same mentality through Vet and normal content. And if you can't or are unwilling to... then how dare you use a "Group finder" to try to "Find a group" to complete a selected activity.
And this is why on somedays I wish their was a 810+ button on my group finder. At least I would have better odds if I decided to use it to be matched with at least other players of the same cp, though as so many pointed out, they will probably only be Plvld with no experience or knowledge or skill, because for some reason, when someone hits 810+ it's actually an indication of day 1 experience as opposed to being 160 or 300cp of course...0
This discussion has been closed.