NO COLOSSUS STACKING - Must increase duration of debuff
Zalathorm
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When you add a cool down to major vulnerability,
PLEASE adjust the duration of the debuff. If you simply add a cooldown and leave the duration at 3 seconds, the ability will absolutely suck.
Balance obviously depends on the length of the cooldown. Example to show what I'm talking about (not suggesting the actual values)
- Major vuln cannot be reapplied for 20 seconds, duration of the debuff 8 seconds
- Major vuln cannot be reapplied for 40 seconds, duration of the debuff 16 seconds
Especially with the reduction in DPS across the board, colossus should be an impactful ultimate for perhaps two necromancers in a raid. Consider the points of many about HOW HARD a lot of the content is going to be with the reduction in DPS. Consider that it gets even harder without a team of stamcros. You can alleviate some of the pain of reduced DPS across the board, and of the loss of colossus stacking, by making it a strong but reasonable duration.
This is a class defining ability and is the PERFECT standard of what a class ultimate should be. Every class should be essential in a raid due to some awesome group ability they bring. Instead of nerfing colossus into the ground, make it good and consider this when helping other classes with identity. Dont mess it up.
Edited by Zalathorm on October 1, 2019 10:38PM PLEASE adjust the duration of the debuff. If you simply add a cooldown and leave the duration at 3 seconds, the ability will absolutely suck.
Balance obviously depends on the length of the cooldown. Example to show what I'm talking about (not suggesting the actual values)
- Major vuln cannot be reapplied for 20 seconds, duration of the debuff 8 seconds
- Major vuln cannot be reapplied for 40 seconds, duration of the debuff 16 seconds
Especially with the reduction in DPS across the board, colossus should be an impactful ultimate for perhaps two necromancers in a raid. Consider the points of many about HOW HARD a lot of the content is going to be with the reduction in DPS. Consider that it gets even harder without a team of stamcros. You can alleviate some of the pain of reduced DPS across the board, and of the loss of colossus stacking, by making it a strong but reasonable duration.
This is a class defining ability and is the PERFECT standard of what a class ultimate should be. Every class should be essential in a raid due to some awesome group ability they bring. Instead of nerfing colossus into the ground, make it good and consider this when helping other classes with identity. Dont mess it up.
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DaNnYtHePcFrEaK✭✭✭Would be nice having the flesh atro and a storm atro tag team the *** out of stuff3
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Zalathorm✭✭✭✭DaNnYtHePcFrEaK wrote: »Would be nice having the flesh atro and a storm atro tag team the *** out of stuff
Agreed. Using colossus as a template, I hope storm atros gets even stronger group utility such that you want a few sorcs along2 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Just drop major vulnerability completely and give the caster major berserk for 6 seconds instead.
Completely solves stacking with minimal nerf to the necro4 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Just drop major vulnerability completely and give the caster major berserk for 6 seconds instead.
Completely solves stacking with minimal nerf to the necro
One of the class reps talked about the removal of maj vuln. He/she wrote something like "why would you want to bring a necro if it doesn't offer any group utility". Keep that in mind when you suggest taking a "group buff" away.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on October 2, 2019 12:29PM3 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Just drop major vulnerability completely and give the caster major berserk for 6 seconds instead.
Completely solves stacking with minimal nerf to the necro
One of the class reps talked about the removal of maj vuln. He/she wrote something like "why would you want to bring a necro if it doesn't offer any group utility". Keep that in mind when you suggest taking a "group buff" away.
Resurrect1 -
Zalathorm✭✭✭✭Just drop major vulnerability completely and give the caster major berserk for 6 seconds instead.
Completely solves stacking with minimal nerf to the necro
No way. Colossus is the PERFECT template of what a class ult should be. We should have raid compositions where we want certain classes for their GROUP utility. It is fantastic that necros are desired for their class ult, and we should maintain that with the parameters I outlined in my OP.
Other classes should get class identity improvements along the lines of group benefiting ultimates.
What you suggest makes necros no different than nightblades, with an ult that helps them alone for a few seconds. This moves away from class identity in a phase of the game when they are trying to restore it.3 -
NoodleESO✭✭✭✭✭I think necros are in a tough spot and they should take the time out to balance the ultimate with the class, not saying you're wrong op but I do not think your solution is the best one sorry0 -
kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You’re gonna find maybe 3 groups on PS4 Probably mostly same people that could coordinate well enough to stack necro collosus Major Vulnerability. This is just an unnecessary nerf imo.2 -
Zalathorm✭✭✭✭I think necros are in a tough spot and they should take the time out to balance the ultimate with the class, not saying you're wrong op but I do not think your solution is the best one sorry
Putting a cooldown on major vulnerability is definitely the direction they are heading. I know this from their own comments (looking into preventing necro stacking from being the best setup) and from sources closer to zos.
I'm simply saying the need to make the debuff last a meaningful amount of time if stacking colossus is fixed.2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Just drop major vulnerability completely and give the caster major berserk for 6 seconds instead.
Completely solves stacking with minimal nerf to the necro
One of the class reps talked about the removal of maj vuln. He/she wrote something like "why would you want to bring a necro if it doesn't offer any group utility". Keep that in mind when you suggest taking a "group buff" away.
In my experience very few players want to bring a Necro to trials, they feel obligated to provide Major Vuln. The class is a still a broken, buggy mess, that is not enjoyable at all. Maybe this will be more clear once their one overpowered ability is brought into line, because you are correct, if classes were actually balanced there wouldn’t be many Necros around.2 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Just drop major vulnerability completely and give the caster major berserk for 6 seconds instead.
Completely solves stacking with minimal nerf to the necro
No way. Colossus is the PERFECT template of what a class ult should be. We should have raid compositions where we want certain classes for their GROUP utility. It is fantastic that necros are desired for their class ult, and we should maintain that with the parameters I outlined in my OP.
Other classes should get class identity improvements along the lines of group benefiting ultimates.
What you suggest makes necros no different than nightblades, with an ult that helps them alone for a few seconds. This moves away from class identity in a phase of the game when they are trying to restore it.
Crazy idea right?
Each class having such group utility. Make it beneficial to have multiples of any and every class.
But alas, another "nerf x class for having a good thing another class doesn't." C'mon pve, I thought we were leaving the nerfs up to the pvp guys.
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SeaUnicorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'd much rather other classes to have added group utility to ults, than necro got nerfed. Someone had a great idea, make sorcs atro give buff to all grp members, make warden bear to add 2-3% dps boost to all grp members and so on. Why do we need to nerf good things, when we can buff bad ones...1 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Just drop major vulnerability completely and give the caster major berserk for 6 seconds instead.
Completely solves stacking with minimal nerf to the necro
One of the class reps talked about the removal of maj vuln. He/she wrote something like "why would you want to bring a necro if it doesn't offer any group utility". Keep that in mind when you suggest taking a "group buff" away.
It doesn’t matter what group buff it has if they wreck the ultimate with broken mechanics, cooldowns or other nonsense to solve the “stacking” problem.
They are well on their way to ruining it already. I’d settle for a selfish damage buff in exchange for stll having an ultimate i would slot.
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katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Just drop major vulnerability completely and give the caster major berserk for 6 seconds instead.
Completely solves stacking with minimal nerf to the necro
One of the class reps talked about the removal of maj vuln. He/she wrote something like "why would you want to bring a necro if it doesn't offer any group utility". Keep that in mind when you suggest taking a "group buff" away.
It doesn’t matter what group buff it has if they wreck the ultimate with broken mechanics, cooldowns or other nonsense to solve the “stacking” problem.
They are well on their way to ruining it already. I’d settle for a selfish damage buff in exchange for stll having an ultimate i would slot.
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Zalathorm✭✭✭✭It doesn’t matter what group buff it has if they wreck the ultimate with broken mechanics, cooldowns or other nonsense to solve the “stacking” problem.
They are well on their way to ruining it already. I’d settle for a selfish damage buff in exchange for stll having an ultimate i would slot.
it just depends on the balance of the skill. If colossus grants major vuln for 15 seconds, and cant be repplied for 30 seconds, that's pretty damn good. You would want at least two necros in the raid for that utility. If they go selfish as you suggest, necro loses group utility and becomes just another dps class with nothing to add.
Edited by Zalathorm on October 2, 2019 6:55PM0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It doesn’t matter what group buff it has if they wreck the ultimate with broken mechanics, cooldowns or other nonsense to solve the “stacking” problem.
They are well on their way to ruining it already. I’d settle for a selfish damage buff in exchange for stll having an ultimate i would slot.
it just depends on the balance of the skill. If colossus grants major vuln for 15 seconds, and cant be repplied for 30 seconds, that's pretty damn good. You would want at least two necros in the raid for that utility. If they go selfish as you suggest, necro loses group utility and becomes just another dps class with nothing to add.
That sounds like a nightmare to try to track, especially for consoles without addons. There should not be an arbitrary cooldown while the effect is not active. I do like the idea of longer duration though, since this would allow easy tracking of the debuff even in vanilla ESO.
To maintain the original strength it could give a weaker Major Vuln for a longer duration, maybe 10%-12% damage increase for 15-20s. I would say lower with the % to allow longer duration, but it can’t really be lower than Minor Vuln at 8%. 3-4 Necromancers would be able to keep full uptime, and more than that would be pointless. It would still be powerful, but less bursty and more constant.0 -
Zalathorm✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »It doesn’t matter what group buff it has if they wreck the ultimate with broken mechanics, cooldowns or other nonsense to solve the “stacking” problem.
They are well on their way to ruining it already. I’d settle for a selfish damage buff in exchange for stll having an ultimate i would slot.
it just depends on the balance of the skill. If colossus grants major vuln for 15 seconds, and cant be repplied for 30 seconds, that's pretty damn good. You would want at least two necros in the raid for that utility. If they go selfish as you suggest, necro loses group utility and becomes just another dps class with nothing to add.
That sounds like a nightmare to try to track, especially for consoles without addons. There should not be an arbitrary cooldown while the effect is not active. I do like the idea of longer duration though, since this would allow easy tracking of the debuff even in vanilla ESO.
To maintain the original strength it could give a weaker Major Vuln for a longer duration, maybe 10%-12% damage increase for 15-20s. I would say lower with the % to allow longer duration, but it can’t really be lower than Minor Vuln at 8%. 3-4 Necromancers would be able to keep full uptime, and more than that would be pointless. It would still be powerful, but less bursty and more constant.
People already do it with off balance in PVE and CC immune in PVP. It would take some time to get a feel for certainly.
Reducing major vuln to 12%, on top of all the DPS and DoT nerfs, would be adding fuel to the flame. People are already speculating how much content will be completely out of reach for elite raid teams, and how much more difficult progression will be for average raids teams. Nerfing major vuln by over 50% would be too extreme.0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »It doesn’t matter what group buff it has if they wreck the ultimate with broken mechanics, cooldowns or other nonsense to solve the “stacking” problem.
They are well on their way to ruining it already. I’d settle for a selfish damage buff in exchange for stll having an ultimate i would slot.
it just depends on the balance of the skill. If colossus grants major vuln for 15 seconds, and cant be repplied for 30 seconds, that's pretty damn good. You would want at least two necros in the raid for that utility. If they go selfish as you suggest, necro loses group utility and becomes just another dps class with nothing to add.
That sounds like a nightmare to try to track, especially for consoles without addons. There should not be an arbitrary cooldown while the effect is not active. I do like the idea of longer duration though, since this would allow easy tracking of the debuff even in vanilla ESO.
To maintain the original strength it could give a weaker Major Vuln for a longer duration, maybe 10%-12% damage increase for 15-20s. I would say lower with the % to allow longer duration, but it can’t really be lower than Minor Vuln at 8%. 3-4 Necromancers would be able to keep full uptime, and more than that would be pointless. It would still be powerful, but less bursty and more constant.
People already do it with off balance in PVE and CC immune in PVP. It would take some time to get a feel for certainly.
Reducing major vuln to 12%, on top of all the DPS and DoT nerfs, would be adding fuel to the flame. People are already speculating how much content will be completely out of reach for elite raid teams, and how much more difficult progression will be for average raids teams. Nerfing major vuln by over 50% would be too extreme.
The 12% for longer duration would be much less of a nerf than the 30% for 3s on PTS. Even with a group of 8 Necros on PTS and perfect ult coordination, the max uptime achieved is 33% of the 30% bonus damage, which averages out to 10% group DPS over a long boss fight. My recommendation was to give 10-12%, but make 100% uptime possible with 4 Necros, which requires half the number of ultimates (and therefore can allow 4 DPS to bring other classes) and still gives at a minimum the same 10% group DPS.
It would definitely be lower burst, but sustained DPS should be higher with my suggestion, not lower.1 -
Austinseph1✭✭✭✭✭As long as necro has a group buff that can stack so much damage they will always be balanced against it. Because they are readjusting the system with sweeping of 33% dot nerfs they could bump up other class ultimates to be somewhat in line with the atro but major vuln is the strongest buff in the game that was thrown on Necro to sell the chapter. You would be better off with a slightly worse buff but then built the rest of the class up as a whole... because when I play necro outside of a raid environment I pretty much never see it preform as well as my other characters. The class will never able to be balanced well because while its good in a raid, outside the capabilities of the class at the highest level will hold it back. Its easier for the to reduce the ulti than adjust every other class to meet it. Its underwhelming in small group play and overwhelming in a raid group. The downfall is that it scales TOO well to be balanced correctly. If they are willing to completely destroy all of the DoT's in the game because the devs think more casual players feel "Like they have to use them" then a necro ulti will never be something worth changing the entire system just to keep its identity.Edited by Austinseph1 on October 4, 2019 3:35PM0 -
cory8325✭✭Change standard of might to buffing everyone standing in the standards damage by the 12% and you’d see some dk’s in raid composition as well0
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Donny_Vito✭✭✭✭✭
✭Come on, you knew this was coming. Necros needed to be OP in order to continue selling the new expansion. It's time they were reeled in, and putting a timer on the debuff is a good place to start. Even with 3 seconds of Major Vuln, a well coordinated team can really put out some damage in that time-frame. But the thought of having 8 necro DPS in the core again just because of that damn ultimate sounds utterly awful....lets not go back to that.1 -
Jodynn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Make a cool down on major berserk and major vulnerability so that maxium uptime is around the same as off balance.
Make the durations both 5 seconds flat.
Make major vuln proc ON FIRST HIT.
Major berserk should be given on summon of storm atro in a 28 m radius, 25% instead of 30% is reasonable due to it is a buff not a debuff so it goes with you albeit only 5 seconds. This would also give sorcs a chance at buffing themselves.
This would make it more viable and reasonable instead of humping an atro hoping for a synergy.
Sounds pretty balanced to me, say you?Jodynn PC NA
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.0 -
Jodynn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Maybe 10 meters for atro so you have to time it and place itJodynn PC NA
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.0 -
Jodynn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Or better yet just make the storm atro an aoe synergy like orbsJodynn PC NA
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.0 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I would rather see Veil of Blades, Solar Prison, Standard of Might, Suppression Field, and Northern Storm receive equally as powerful (in a 12 person raid context) group utility buffs than see Colossus nerfed further.
Remember when Nightblades were needed for Veil and Templars Solar Prison to mitigate damage for trials?
Remember when Negate used to actually do something useful in trials?
Standard of Might never did anything group oriented, but I didn't want to leave Dragon Knights out.
Northern Storm was primarily slotted for the 8% magicka (if it was used when the Bear wasn't good for a situation), but now I'm not sure it will even get used.
The point I want to make is the reason we like Colossus is the group benefit is actually useful in "today's" trial meta. I wish the combat team would take some of the other ultimates that have fallen out of favor in trials and add some PvE trial pizazz to them so other classes can bring something other than a obligatory minor buff to the group.Playing since beta...2 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭They just need to remove the Major Vulnerability all together, so that it'll stop holding the class back so much. It's already not a very good PvP ultimate, and people want to fight against other improvements to the class because hey - PvE trial groups stack up Stamina Necromancers due to one debuff on one ultimate. If NPCs started behaving like halfway decent players, and hard-countering both the damage and debuff with a single dodge roll, maybe we'd see some proper changes to the ability.
Most of these suggestions that are made from a PvE-only point of view would still leave the Colossus in a bad place in PvP. Taking an extra 30% damage from all sources for 16 seconds would be ludicrous...as long as the player(s) didn't completely negate it with a cleanse. On the other hand, having a debuff that was barely better than Minor Vulnerability and required spending 225 ultimate? No.1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭On the other hand, having a debuff that was barely better than Minor Vulnerability and required spending 225 ultimate? No.
Well if by “barely better” you mean 25-50% better (10 or 12% vs 8%), with a long duration and over a large area. If there was an Ult that gave even Minor Vuln like this I think it would be worth dropping in PVP against groups on a flag or in a choke point. Now add the damage aspect that was completely forgotten, because Colossus hits harder than Dawnbreaker and covers more ground, while also being useful from range instead of melee.0 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes, 10 or 12% vs 8% is "barely better" in PvP, especially when it requires spending 225 ultimate and can be countered with 1 dodge roll or a cleanse. And the damage wasn't "forgotten," it just wasn't worth mentioning because it's too easily countered when you're against anyone that even halfway knows what they're doing. On the occasions that I actually encounter another Necromancer using this ultimate in BGs, I typically take 0-1 damage ticks...and that's on a Magicka Necromancer that can't afford to do all that much dodge rolling. *If* I do eat a tick of damage, it'll generally do damage between Dizzying Swing and a "normal" spammable (and typically closer to the latter).WrathOfInnos wrote: »On the other hand, having a debuff that was barely better than Minor Vulnerability and required spending 225 ultimate? No.
Well if by “barely better” you mean 25-50% better (10 or 12% vs 8%), with a long duration and over a large area. If there was an Ult that gave even Minor Vuln like this I think it would be worth dropping in PVP against groups on a flag or in a choke point. Now add the damage aspect that was completely forgotten, because Colossus hits harder than Dawnbreaker and covers more ground, while also being useful from range instead of melee.
The ultimate is just fine for killing "potatoes," but so is everything else. Situations where you can actually land all 3 damage ticks + the full duration of Major Vulnerability are quite rare when against decent opposition.0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes, 10 or 12% vs 8% is "barely better" in PvP, especially when it requires spending 225 ultimate and can be countered with 1 dodge roll or a cleanse. And the damage wasn't "forgotten," it just wasn't worth mentioning because it's too easily countered when you're against anyone that even halfway knows what they're doing. On the occasions that I actually encounter another Necromancer using this ultimate in BGs, I typically take 0-1 damage ticks...and that's on a Magicka Necromancer that can't afford to do all that much dodge rolling. *If* I do eat a tick of damage, it'll generally do damage between Dizzying Swing and a "normal" spammable (and typically closer to the latter).WrathOfInnos wrote: »On the other hand, having a debuff that was barely better than Minor Vulnerability and required spending 225 ultimate? No.
Well if by “barely better” you mean 25-50% better (10 or 12% vs 8%), with a long duration and over a large area. If there was an Ult that gave even Minor Vuln like this I think it would be worth dropping in PVP against groups on a flag or in a choke point. Now add the damage aspect that was completely forgotten, because Colossus hits harder than Dawnbreaker and covers more ground, while also being useful from range instead of melee.
The ultimate is just fine for killing "potatoes," but so is everything else. Situations where you can actually land all 3 damage ticks + the full duration of Major Vulnerability are quite rare when against decent opposition.
I’ll agree that it should not be dodgable. It is an AoE and should function like Meteor or the Destruction Ultimate.
I can also see how it would not be best in BG’s since you rarely encounter more than 2-3 enemies at a time. I see it as more of a large scale alliance war tool, to shift the tide of a keep battle. For dueling it’s pretty useless too.2 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They just need to remove the Major Vulnerability all together, so that it'll stop holding the class back so much. It's already not a very good PvP ultimate, and people want to fight against other improvements to the class because hey - PvE trial groups stack up Stamina Necromancers due to one debuff on one ultimate. If NPCs started behaving like halfway decent players, and hard-countering both the damage and debuff with a single dodge roll, maybe we'd see some proper changes to the ability.
Most of these suggestions that are made from a PvE-only point of view would still leave the Colossus in a bad place in PvP. Taking an extra 30% damage from all sources for 16 seconds would be ludicrous...as long as the player(s) didn't completely negate it with a cleanse. On the other hand, having a debuff that was barely better than Minor Vulnerability and required spending 225 ultimate? No.
Bingo. Major vulnerability in any form from a single class causes stacking. No goofy complicated changes that leave it in place will work, and will be buggy and useless.
Just replace it with major berserk 6 seconds for the caster. And it is AOE so make it unable to be dodged because standards.1