Bscott0905b14_ESO wrote: »$30 for Psijic or Mages Guild? I'd really like to see a better way to unlock skill lines for alt's than paying $30. Yes I know, we could just play...but doing it on multiple characters is tedious and usually not fun--hence the option to purchase them. Cash shop features like these seem like purchases nobody is happy to make.
VaranisArano wrote: »Its free if you play the game.
Personally, I'd much rather run the Grand Annual Psijic Order Scavenger Hunt or hunt for overdue library books than pay $30 for the skill line.
Taleof2Cities wrote: »
Bscott0905b14_ESO wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »
Paying for convenience is something nobody is happy to spend their cash on. More like paying for something (a good amount too) just so you don't have to do something you don't want to in-game, dosen't feel good.
Buying a game to pay to not play the game.
G1Countdown wrote: »Why don't you play the game and not pay anything?
I am confused. Playing the game is too time consuming and inconvenient so you want an alternative way to get the skill lines/points other than playing the game. Paying the set price isn't convenient enough for you, so you want an alternative option. Said alternative option needs to be more convenient than playing the game and way easier/cheaper than the set price through the crown store?
Do you see where I am going with this? You don't want to play the game. You don't want the crown store price. You seem to want a third option that involves little to no work to have something handed to you. Perhaps this isn't the game for you?
G1Countdown wrote: »Why don't you play the game and not pay anything?
I am confused. Playing the game is too time consuming and inconvenient so you want an alternative way to get the skill lines/points other than playing the game. Paying the set price isn't convenient enough for you, so you want an alternative option. Said alternative option needs to be more convenient than playing the game and way easier/cheaper than the set price through the crown store?
Do you see where I am going with this? You don't want to play the game. You don't want the crown store price. You seem to want a third option that involves little to no work to have something handed to you. Perhaps this isn't the game for you?
The trouble is, more and more games have been designed over the past five years or so that use these kinds of predatory monetization models. It is impacting game design negatively. Instead of improving the actual design of the game so players don't feel inconvenienced by needless grind, companies like $enimax maintain the needless grind and poor game design so they can charge you for the so-called convenience of bypassing a problem they not only created but are entirely unwilling to provide non-paid solutions for.
There is no reason why they couldn't have made skill lines purchasable for in-game gold, for example. There is also no reason why they couldn't have developed a "new game plus" mode where you could create a brand new character that inherits the legacy of one of your existing characters or something similar. No, they deliberately avoid doing these things because they'd rather prey on their customer's wallets, goodwill, and/or naivety.
If we don't want to see these industry trends continue to get worse - both in games we currently play and in ones currently being developed - speaking out against it is necessary. Pointing out how absurd the costs of these things are is necessary. All silence will accomplish is more of the same. If this sort of ridiculous game design becomes taboo to a solid chunk of consumers, it can and will force this nonsense to end. The challenge is reaching that threshold...
Bscott0905b14_ESO wrote: »$30 for Psijic or Mages Guild? I'd really like to see a better way to unlock skill lines for alt's than paying $30. Yes I know, we could just play...but doing it on multiple characters is tedious and usually not fun--hence the option to purchase them. Cash shop features like these seem like purchases nobody is happy to make.
redspecter23 wrote: »You can pay $30 but unfortunately you give up all sense of pride and accomplishment when you do so.
The problem is not that people should pay for "convenience", the problem is that the game is designed to make some tasks mundane, or down right boring to lead the player to the crown store.
"Its only 30 dollars, that is just two lunches" which is the wrong way to look at it, but the exact way they want you to look at it.
I bought the game, I pay for it monthly outside of the stupid amounts I have spent in the crown store. I should not have to suffer bad game design that is not about fun game play, but about making money hand over fist.
VaranisArano wrote: »This isn't anything new. Riding lessons are the epitome of "boring, mundane, lengthy task that you can skip with crowns."
Please provide an example because grinding mages guild the first time was boring. I actually quit the game when Summerset came out BECASUE of the Psijic grind. It was utterly mundane and the jokes were not even remotely funny enough to entertain a human.VaranisArano wrote: »On the other hand? Some game design isn't bad. It just becomes mundane and boring when you do it for the nth time because you want to play a bunch of alts at high level as fast as possible. Even Skyrim gets boring when you've replayed Bleak Falls Barrow for the 18th time.
Except that they ARE a list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame.VaranisArano wrote: »If you treat the Guild skill lines and skyshard hunting like they are the list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame PVP or PVE with your friends, then of course you are going to think they are mundane and boring.
VaranisArano wrote: »It doesnt mean the game design is bad. It does mean that you aren't interested in replaying those parts and you wish it were easier/cheaper to skip it so you could get to the parts you really want to do on your multiple characters.
VaranisArano wrote: »The logical conclusion: ZOS should just give us all the option to use PTS Template characters on Live, that way no one ever has to do any content they find boring or mundane in order to jump straight to the content they want to do.
(Or not.)
VaranisArano wrote: »This isn't anything new. Riding lessons are the epitome of "boring, mundane, lengthy task that you can skip with crowns."
It does not have to be new to be bad game design. The primary philosophy in this games design is to funnel the player to the crown store. I argue heavily that designing a game to make money first and fun second is the wrong way to go about it.Please provide an example because grinding mages guild the first time was boring. I actually quit the game when Summerset came out BECASUE of the Psijic grind. It was utterly mundane and the jokes were not even remotely funny enough to entertain a human.VaranisArano wrote: »On the other hand? Some game design isn't bad. It just becomes mundane and boring when you do it for the nth time because you want to play a bunch of alts at high level as fast as possible. Even Skyrim gets boring when you've replayed Bleak Falls Barrow for the 18th time.Except that they ARE a list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame.VaranisArano wrote: »If you treat the Guild skill lines and skyshard hunting like they are the list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame PVP or PVE with your friends, then of course you are going to think they are mundane and boring.VaranisArano wrote: »It doesnt mean the game design is bad. It does mean that you aren't interested in replaying those parts and you wish it were easier/cheaper to skip it so you could get to the parts you really want to do on your multiple characters.
Incorrect. Its bad design because as I already stated the goal is profit first, fun second. ZOS is not willing to take the gamble of creating a compelling product with hopes that they got the formula correct to create a happy customer base. Instead, they lure the customer in, then slap them with an extra game charge every time they want to do something.
Fun games are like Disneyland, you pay, you go inside, you have fun.
ESO is like a sideshow carnival, you pay, you go inside, you pay again to ride the cheesy roller coaster, you pay again to ride the cheesy ferris wheel, you pay again to.....VaranisArano wrote: »The logical conclusion: ZOS should just give us all the option to use PTS Template characters on Live, that way no one ever has to do any content they find boring or mundane in order to jump straight to the content they want to do.
(Or not.)
No, the obvious solution is to design the game to be fun first, and when they have done their jobs correct, they will reap the reward of massive profit.
VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »This isn't anything new. Riding lessons are the epitome of "boring, mundane, lengthy task that you can skip with crowns."
It does not have to be new to be bad game design. The primary philosophy in this games design is to funnel the player to the crown store. I argue heavily that designing a game to make money first and fun second is the wrong way to go about it.Please provide an example because grinding mages guild the first time was boring. I actually quit the game when Summerset came out BECASUE of the Psijic grind. It was utterly mundane and the jokes were not even remotely funny enough to entertain a human.VaranisArano wrote: »On the other hand? Some game design isn't bad. It just becomes mundane and boring when you do it for the nth time because you want to play a bunch of alts at high level as fast as possible. Even Skyrim gets boring when you've replayed Bleak Falls Barrow for the 18th time.Except that they ARE a list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame.VaranisArano wrote: »If you treat the Guild skill lines and skyshard hunting like they are the list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame PVP or PVE with your friends, then of course you are going to think they are mundane and boring.VaranisArano wrote: »It doesnt mean the game design is bad. It does mean that you aren't interested in replaying those parts and you wish it were easier/cheaper to skip it so you could get to the parts you really want to do on your multiple characters.
Incorrect. Its bad design because as I already stated the goal is profit first, fun second. ZOS is not willing to take the gamble of creating a compelling product with hopes that they got the formula correct to create a happy customer base. Instead, they lure the customer in, then slap them with an extra game charge every time they want to do something.
Fun games are like Disneyland, you pay, you go inside, you have fun.
ESO is like a sideshow carnival, you pay, you go inside, you pay again to ride the cheesy roller coaster, you pay again to ride the cheesy ferris wheel, you pay again to.....VaranisArano wrote: »The logical conclusion: ZOS should just give us all the option to use PTS Template characters on Live, that way no one ever has to do any content they find boring or mundane in order to jump straight to the content they want to do.
(Or not.)
No, the obvious solution is to design the game to be fun first, and when they have done their jobs correct, they will reap the reward of massive profit.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree, because "its not fun!" is inherently subjective.
I liked the Psijic Order line and thought it was the easiest skill line to grind on new characters after Fighters Guild. Go ahead, feel free to mock my sense of humor. The Mages Guild is a lot more fun when I don't treat it like the gaming equivalent of cleaning my room. I can usually collect the books as I explore. Then again, apparently I'm one of those weird people who explores zones as I level through questing instead of grinding straight to level 50, since I cannot stand running circles around the same three dolmens.
IMO, this has more to do with attitude than game design. Its not bad game design for a roleplaying game to expect you to play the game again when you level a new character, which has been true long before the skill lines for sale, so its not true that ZOS did it just to drive sales. Nor is "I'm not having fun" proof of bad game design. That's incredibly subjective, and also very vulnerable to players overdoing it. Something can be fun the first couple times, but by the time soneone is working on their 18th alt, most games are going to struggle with replayability and maintaining a level of "fun" at that point. That's true even in games with no continuing monetization.
On the other hand, I'm not going to bother trying to convince you to change your attitude or your opinion about the skill lines or what you find fun. That would be pointless, since its all entirely subjective, as is my own opinion, obviously.
Dusk_Coven wrote: »A lot of PvP'ers paying real money to curbstomp newbs in under-50's BGs disagree.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/493330/pre-50-bgs-are-now-pay-to-win
Maybe ZOS can steadily raise the cost. See how much they can milk from this.
VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »This isn't anything new. Riding lessons are the epitome of "boring, mundane, lengthy task that you can skip with crowns."
It does not have to be new to be bad game design. The primary philosophy in this games design is to funnel the player to the crown store. I argue heavily that designing a game to make money first and fun second is the wrong way to go about it.Please provide an example because grinding mages guild the first time was boring. I actually quit the game when Summerset came out BECASUE of the Psijic grind. It was utterly mundane and the jokes were not even remotely funny enough to entertain a human.VaranisArano wrote: »On the other hand? Some game design isn't bad. It just becomes mundane and boring when you do it for the nth time because you want to play a bunch of alts at high level as fast as possible. Even Skyrim gets boring when you've replayed Bleak Falls Barrow for the 18th time.Except that they ARE a list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame.VaranisArano wrote: »If you treat the Guild skill lines and skyshard hunting like they are the list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame PVP or PVE with your friends, then of course you are going to think they are mundane and boring.VaranisArano wrote: »It doesnt mean the game design is bad. It does mean that you aren't interested in replaying those parts and you wish it were easier/cheaper to skip it so you could get to the parts you really want to do on your multiple characters.
Incorrect. Its bad design because as I already stated the goal is profit first, fun second. ZOS is not willing to take the gamble of creating a compelling product with hopes that they got the formula correct to create a happy customer base. Instead, they lure the customer in, then slap them with an extra game charge every time they want to do something.
Fun games are like Disneyland, you pay, you go inside, you have fun.
ESO is like a sideshow carnival, you pay, you go inside, you pay again to ride the cheesy roller coaster, you pay again to ride the cheesy ferris wheel, you pay again to.....VaranisArano wrote: »The logical conclusion: ZOS should just give us all the option to use PTS Template characters on Live, that way no one ever has to do any content they find boring or mundane in order to jump straight to the content they want to do.
(Or not.)
No, the obvious solution is to design the game to be fun first, and when they have done their jobs correct, they will reap the reward of massive profit.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree, because "its not fun!" is inherently subjective.
I liked the Psijic Order line and thought it was the easiest skill line to grind on new characters after Fighters Guild. Go ahead, feel free to mock my sense of humor. The Mages Guild is a lot more fun when I don't treat it like the gaming equivalent of cleaning my room. I can usually collect the books as I explore. Then again, apparently I'm one of those weird people who explores zones as I level through questing instead of grinding straight to level 50, since I cannot stand running circles around the same three dolmens.
IMO, this has more to do with attitude than game design. Its not bad game design for a roleplaying game to expect you to play the game again when you level a new character, which has been true long before the skill lines for sale, so its not true that ZOS did it just to drive sales. Nor is "I'm not having fun" proof of bad game design. That's incredibly subjective, and also very vulnerable to players overdoing it. Something can be fun the first couple times, but by the time soneone is working on their 18th alt, most games are going to struggle with replayability and maintaining a level of "fun" at that point. That's true even in games with no continuing monetization.
On the other hand, I'm not going to bother trying to convince you to change your attitude or your opinion about the skill lines or what you find fun. That would be pointless, since its all entirely subjective, as is my own opinion, obviously.
This is not subjective.
The guild design is created to make you grind in order to compete in end game. Most of if not every build in game requires guild spells/talents to be competitive in pvp or trials. Due to ZOS nerfing spells/skills and races and classes every three months, some of those builds do not work so people create other classes to fulfill the role they once held with their peers.
Grinding out mages guild AGAIN, or fighters AGAIN, or psijic AGAIN is not fun, that is not even subjective...they are mundane tasks that MOST people will not find intriguing, however we still need them to enjoy end game content.
THE ANSWER that ZOS should implement is making these guilds unlock PER ACCOUNT once you have done them on one character, NOT CHARGE to unlock them.
You may not possess the ability to see their design goals behind what they do, I can...I do it for a living and this game is suffering IMMESELY due to the fact that the game is designed to funnel people to the crown store. Pets is one thing, mounts is one thing. Skill lines however are not, it just reeks of greed.
The fact that there is ONE bank for all your toons is a prime example, then making bank slot unlocks more and more expensive as you level. Most people can not afford that. But its ok, we have a crown store solution. For only 10 dollars more, you too can unlock some bank slots.
IN other MMORPGS, you get a bank per character.
Hmm...odd, bank slots are shared, unlocks are not, achievements are not. Ya, I am seeing a pattern here in their design, and its pathetic.
VaranisArano wrote: »Its free if you play the game.