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Skill lines are way too expensive and unrewarding

Bscott0905b14_ESO
$30 for Psijic or Mages Guild? I'd really like to see a better way to unlock skill lines for alt's than paying $30. Yes I know, we could just play...but doing it on multiple characters is tedious and usually not fun--hence the option to purchase them. Cash shop features like these seem like purchases nobody is happy to make.
  • Taleof2Cities
    Taleof2Cities
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    @VaranisArano is right.

    It’s free if you play the game.

    Paying for convenience is what it is.
    "May you walk on warm sands."
    "First, I would ask that you look to the poor and the suffering around Cyrodiil. Look into their hearts, and then look into your own."
    "May Auri-El's light guide you in your darkest hours."

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  • TheRealPotoroo
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    I'll happily pay if it means never going to Cyrodiil ever again.
    PC NA, PC EU
  • Banana
    Banana
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    Class change next please.
  • Neoealth
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    Its free if you play the game.

    Personally, I'd much rather run the Grand Annual Psijic Order Scavenger Hunt or hunt for overdue library books than pay $30 for the skill line.

    Hunt for overdue library books? Sure you're not thinking about fallout 4? 😛
  • Bscott0905b14_ESO
    @VaranisArano is right.

    It’s free if you play the game.

    Paying for convenience is what it is.

    Paying for convenience is something nobody is happy to spend their cash on. More like paying for something (a good amount too) just so you don't have to do something you don't want to in-game, dosen't feel good.
  • pdblake
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    It's probably been said before, but it seems to me that some people are paying good money to not play a game that they paid good money for.

    I know some of these skill lines are a trudge, but they do get you around the map and let you see it all. That said, I've still never been to Cyrodiil.
  • drexciyan
    drexciyan
    Soul Shriven
    Buying a game to pay to not play the game.
  • Nestor
    Nestor
    Community Ambassador
    Time is Money.

    You are going to spend one or the other.

    Question is, which one.

    Now, the book trudge is really easy, 7 or 8 zones and your done. Just make sure the first 5 are in the same alliance. No need to pay for that.

    Psiijic, I think I have unlocked that skill line on 2 characters but have yet to use any of the skills outside of leveling them, so they can charge all they want for unlocking Psiijic.

    Fighters Guild is an easy Grind. The Alikir Dolmen Zerg will get that for you before your L50. Or one of a few public dungeons or zombie grind spots. No need to pay for that.

    Shards? Get them while your getting your books. That is done.

    What's left that you have to get?

    Legerdemain? None of those skills, other than reduced Sneak Cost help in Combat. Same with Dark Brotherhood.
    Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.

    PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
    Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"

  • G1Countdown
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    Why don't you play the game and not pay anything?

    I am confused. Playing the game is too time consuming and inconvenient so you want an alternative way to get the skill lines/points other than playing the game. Paying the set price isn't convenient enough for you, so you want an alternative option. Said alternative option needs to be more convenient than playing the game and way easier/cheaper than the set price through the crown store?

    Do you see where I am going with this? You don't want to play the game. You don't want the crown store price. You seem to want a third option that involves little to no work to have something handed to you. Perhaps this isn't the game for you?
  • TheRealPotoroo
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    drexciyan wrote: »
    Buying a game to pay to not play the game.

    I've played the game for more than 4,000 hours. Doesn't mean I want to endlessly repeat everything though.
    PC NA, PC EU
  • idk
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    It is a choice and merely a convenience.

    So if you think they are to expensive do not buy them. Creating the thread is pointless as Zos will focus on how many skill lines that are being sold. That is what tells them if it is over priced or not.
    Really, idk
  • Starlock
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    Why don't you play the game and not pay anything?

    I am confused. Playing the game is too time consuming and inconvenient so you want an alternative way to get the skill lines/points other than playing the game. Paying the set price isn't convenient enough for you, so you want an alternative option. Said alternative option needs to be more convenient than playing the game and way easier/cheaper than the set price through the crown store?

    Do you see where I am going with this? You don't want to play the game. You don't want the crown store price. You seem to want a third option that involves little to no work to have something handed to you. Perhaps this isn't the game for you?

    The trouble is, more and more games have been designed over the past five years or so that use these kinds of predatory monetization models. It is impacting game design negatively. Instead of improving the actual design of the game so players don't feel inconvenienced by needless grind, companies like $enimax maintain the needless grind and poor game design so they can charge you for the so-called convenience of bypassing a problem they not only created but are entirely unwilling to provide non-paid solutions for.

    There is no reason why they couldn't have made skill lines purchasable for in-game gold, for example. There is also no reason why they couldn't have developed a "new game plus" mode where you could create a brand new character that inherits the legacy of one of your existing characters or something similar. No, they deliberately avoid doing these things because they'd rather prey on their customer's wallets, goodwill, and/or naivety.

    If we don't want to see these industry trends continue to get worse - both in games we currently play and in ones currently being developed - speaking out against it is necessary. Pointing out how absurd the costs of these things are is necessary. All silence will accomplish is more of the same. If this sort of ridiculous game design becomes taboo to a solid chunk of consumers, it can and will force this nonsense to end. The challenge is reaching that threshold...
    I play ESO on XBOX NA
    My gameplay focus is creativity - through storytelling, character design, and character development
  • Raideen
    Raideen
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    Starlock wrote: »
    Why don't you play the game and not pay anything?

    I am confused. Playing the game is too time consuming and inconvenient so you want an alternative way to get the skill lines/points other than playing the game. Paying the set price isn't convenient enough for you, so you want an alternative option. Said alternative option needs to be more convenient than playing the game and way easier/cheaper than the set price through the crown store?

    Do you see where I am going with this? You don't want to play the game. You don't want the crown store price. You seem to want a third option that involves little to no work to have something handed to you. Perhaps this isn't the game for you?

    The trouble is, more and more games have been designed over the past five years or so that use these kinds of predatory monetization models. It is impacting game design negatively. Instead of improving the actual design of the game so players don't feel inconvenienced by needless grind, companies like $enimax maintain the needless grind and poor game design so they can charge you for the so-called convenience of bypassing a problem they not only created but are entirely unwilling to provide non-paid solutions for.

    There is no reason why they couldn't have made skill lines purchasable for in-game gold, for example. There is also no reason why they couldn't have developed a "new game plus" mode where you could create a brand new character that inherits the legacy of one of your existing characters or something similar. No, they deliberately avoid doing these things because they'd rather prey on their customer's wallets, goodwill, and/or naivety.

    If we don't want to see these industry trends continue to get worse - both in games we currently play and in ones currently being developed - speaking out against it is necessary. Pointing out how absurd the costs of these things are is necessary. All silence will accomplish is more of the same. If this sort of ridiculous game design becomes taboo to a solid chunk of consumers, it can and will force this nonsense to end. The challenge is reaching that threshold...

    Completely agree!

    One point that I see most folks missing is that we are talking about a game that is DESIGNED to make grinding skill lines/guilds less than fun. If chasing skill lines from guilds was rewarding and fun, we'd see less of an issue but even the first go around grinding out books for mages guild is boring.

    Everything in this game is designed to funnel the player to the crown store, its not just a matter of convenience its about gouging the customers wallet.

    Guild Traders makes it hard for the masses to make gold. No gold you say? Well just buy this trinket here in the crown store!
    Same reason there are 4 mounts in game purchased with gold. Want something other than a horse? Crown store it is!
    Same reason you get 1 outfit slot. Need 2 for your RP toon? Crown store has the solution.

    I don't begrudge a game company making money on their games. But Its extremely telling about the motives of the game company when they sell single houses that cost 2x the amount of a stand alone console game.

    And to make matters worse...all of the above mentioned IS STILL IN EFFECT EVEN IF YOU SUBSCRIBE which is a commitment to the company that you will pay your dues for their server and continued development.

    Think of No Mans Sky. Sold the game for one price. 20-60 bucks. Here we are years later and they have had 4 major updates and not charged a single penny more. They seem content with the money they are making, why is ZOS not?
    CREATING IN GAME PROBLEMS TO OFFER YOU CROWN STORE SOLUTIONS
    THIS IS ALL RATHER INSIDIOUS AND CRINGEWORTHY -R
  • G1Countdown
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    And this is where we disagree. They should charge the player for the 'convenience.' The entire point is that the player is attempting to bypass a game system and intends to put no effort into it (despite the fact that the player may or may not have completed these game systems before). If the player wants a no effort system to bypass playing the game, then the player should fork over the money. I think it would be a mistake to make it easier to accomplish. We're already borderline pay to win. No need to make this borderline issue so easy to bypass playing the game.
  • Raideen
    Raideen
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    The problem is not that people should pay for "convenience", the problem is that the game is designed to make some tasks mundane, or down right boring to lead the player to the crown store.

    "Its only 30 dollars, that is just two lunches" which is the wrong way to look at it, but the exact way they want you to look at it.

    I bought the game, I pay for it monthly outside of the stupid amounts I have spent in the crown store. I should not have to suffer bad game design that is not about fun game play, but about making money hand over fist.
    CREATING IN GAME PROBLEMS TO OFFER YOU CROWN STORE SOLUTIONS
    THIS IS ALL RATHER INSIDIOUS AND CRINGEWORTHY -R
  • DaveMoeDee
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    $30 for Psijic or Mages Guild? I'd really like to see a better way to unlock skill lines for alt's than paying $30. Yes I know, we could just play...but doing it on multiple characters is tedious and usually not fun--hence the option to purchase them. Cash shop features like these seem like purchases nobody is happy to make.

    Just play then. Ignore the cash shortcuts.They are meant to overpriced.

    Those are for the people with an excess of crowns from subbing or people who like to say "my time is worth more than $30 considering the time it would take to grind.
  • Idinuse
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    You can pay $30 but unfortunately you give up all sense of pride and accomplishment when you do so.

    Not if you've endured the torture more than once... But $30 for a skill line? Won't happen... Should have been 800-1K for "minor" skill lines like legerdemain and 1.5K for "major" lines like Psijic, Mages/Fighters, Alliance IMO.
    Sed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium dolorem que laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Raideen wrote: »
    The problem is not that people should pay for "convenience", the problem is that the game is designed to make some tasks mundane, or down right boring to lead the player to the crown store.

    "Its only 30 dollars, that is just two lunches" which is the wrong way to look at it, but the exact way they want you to look at it.

    I bought the game, I pay for it monthly outside of the stupid amounts I have spent in the crown store. I should not have to suffer bad game design that is not about fun game play, but about making money hand over fist.

    This isn't anything new. Riding lessons are the epitome of "boring, mundane, lengthy task that you can skip with crowns."

    On the other hand? Some game design isn't bad. It just becomes mundane and boring when you do it for the nth time because you want to play a bunch of alts at high level as fast as possible. Even Skyrim gets boring when you've replayed Bleak Falls Barrow for the 18th time.

    If you treat the Guild skill lines and skyshard hunting like they are the list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame PVP or PVE with your friends, then of course you are going to think they are mundane and boring.

    It doesnt mean the game design is bad. It does mean that you aren't interested in replaying those parts and you wish it were easier/cheaper to skip it so you could get to the parts you really want to do on your multiple characters.

    The logical conclusion: ZOS should just give us all the option to use PTS Template characters on Live, that way no one ever has to do any content they find boring or mundane in order to jump straight to the content they want to do.

    (Or not.)
  • Raideen
    Raideen
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    This isn't anything new. Riding lessons are the epitome of "boring, mundane, lengthy task that you can skip with crowns."

    It does not have to be new to be bad game design. The primary philosophy in this games design is to funnel the player to the crown store. I argue heavily that designing a game to make money first and fun second is the wrong way to go about it.
    On the other hand? Some game design isn't bad. It just becomes mundane and boring when you do it for the nth time because you want to play a bunch of alts at high level as fast as possible. Even Skyrim gets boring when you've replayed Bleak Falls Barrow for the 18th time.
    Please provide an example because grinding mages guild the first time was boring. I actually quit the game when Summerset came out BECASUE of the Psijic grind. It was utterly mundane and the jokes were not even remotely funny enough to entertain a human.
    If you treat the Guild skill lines and skyshard hunting like they are the list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame PVP or PVE with your friends, then of course you are going to think they are mundane and boring.
    Except that they ARE a list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame.
    It doesnt mean the game design is bad. It does mean that you aren't interested in replaying those parts and you wish it were easier/cheaper to skip it so you could get to the parts you really want to do on your multiple characters.

    Incorrect. Its bad design because as I already stated the goal is profit first, fun second. ZOS is not willing to take the gamble of creating a compelling product with hopes that they got the formula correct to create a happy customer base. Instead, they lure the customer in, then slap them with an extra game charge every time they want to do something.

    Fun games are like Disneyland, you pay, you go inside, you have fun.
    ESO is like a sideshow carnival, you pay, you go inside, you pay again to ride the cheesy roller coaster, you pay again to ride the cheesy ferris wheel, you pay again to.....
    The logical conclusion: ZOS should just give us all the option to use PTS Template characters on Live, that way no one ever has to do any content they find boring or mundane in order to jump straight to the content they want to do.

    (Or not.)

    No, the obvious solution is to design the game to be fun first, and when they have done their jobs correct, they will reap the reward of massive profit.

    CREATING IN GAME PROBLEMS TO OFFER YOU CROWN STORE SOLUTIONS
    THIS IS ALL RATHER INSIDIOUS AND CRINGEWORTHY -R
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Raideen wrote: »
    This isn't anything new. Riding lessons are the epitome of "boring, mundane, lengthy task that you can skip with crowns."

    It does not have to be new to be bad game design. The primary philosophy in this games design is to funnel the player to the crown store. I argue heavily that designing a game to make money first and fun second is the wrong way to go about it.
    On the other hand? Some game design isn't bad. It just becomes mundane and boring when you do it for the nth time because you want to play a bunch of alts at high level as fast as possible. Even Skyrim gets boring when you've replayed Bleak Falls Barrow for the 18th time.
    Please provide an example because grinding mages guild the first time was boring. I actually quit the game when Summerset came out BECASUE of the Psijic grind. It was utterly mundane and the jokes were not even remotely funny enough to entertain a human.
    If you treat the Guild skill lines and skyshard hunting like they are the list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame PVP or PVE with your friends, then of course you are going to think they are mundane and boring.
    Except that they ARE a list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame.
    It doesnt mean the game design is bad. It does mean that you aren't interested in replaying those parts and you wish it were easier/cheaper to skip it so you could get to the parts you really want to do on your multiple characters.

    Incorrect. Its bad design because as I already stated the goal is profit first, fun second. ZOS is not willing to take the gamble of creating a compelling product with hopes that they got the formula correct to create a happy customer base. Instead, they lure the customer in, then slap them with an extra game charge every time they want to do something.

    Fun games are like Disneyland, you pay, you go inside, you have fun.
    ESO is like a sideshow carnival, you pay, you go inside, you pay again to ride the cheesy roller coaster, you pay again to ride the cheesy ferris wheel, you pay again to.....
    The logical conclusion: ZOS should just give us all the option to use PTS Template characters on Live, that way no one ever has to do any content they find boring or mundane in order to jump straight to the content they want to do.

    (Or not.)

    No, the obvious solution is to design the game to be fun first, and when they have done their jobs correct, they will reap the reward of massive profit.

    We're gonna have to agree to disagree, because "its not fun!" is inherently subjective.

    I liked the Psijic Order line and thought it was the easiest skill line to grind on new characters after Fighters Guild. Go ahead, feel free to mock my sense of humor. The Mages Guild is a lot more fun when I don't treat it like the gaming equivalent of cleaning my room. I can usually collect the books as I explore. Then again, apparently I'm one of those weird people who explores zones as I level through questing instead of grinding straight to level 50, since I cannot stand running circles around the same three dolmens.

    IMO, this has more to do with attitude than game design. Its not bad game design for a roleplaying game to expect you to play the game again when you level a new character, which has been true long before the skill lines for sale, so its not true that ZOS did it just to drive sales. Nor is "I'm not having fun" proof of bad game design. That's incredibly subjective, and also very vulnerable to players overdoing it. Something can be fun the first couple times, but by the time soneone is working on their 18th alt, most games are going to struggle with replayability and maintaining a level of "fun" at that point. That's true even in games with no continuing monetization.


    On the other hand, I'm not going to bother trying to convince you to change your attitude or your opinion about the skill lines or what you find fun. That would be pointless, since its all entirely subjective, as is my own opinion, obviously.
    Edited by VaranisArano on September 27, 2019 12:09AM
  • Raideen
    Raideen
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    Raideen wrote: »
    This isn't anything new. Riding lessons are the epitome of "boring, mundane, lengthy task that you can skip with crowns."

    It does not have to be new to be bad game design. The primary philosophy in this games design is to funnel the player to the crown store. I argue heavily that designing a game to make money first and fun second is the wrong way to go about it.
    On the other hand? Some game design isn't bad. It just becomes mundane and boring when you do it for the nth time because you want to play a bunch of alts at high level as fast as possible. Even Skyrim gets boring when you've replayed Bleak Falls Barrow for the 18th time.
    Please provide an example because grinding mages guild the first time was boring. I actually quit the game when Summerset came out BECASUE of the Psijic grind. It was utterly mundane and the jokes were not even remotely funny enough to entertain a human.
    If you treat the Guild skill lines and skyshard hunting like they are the list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame PVP or PVE with your friends, then of course you are going to think they are mundane and boring.
    Except that they ARE a list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame.
    It doesnt mean the game design is bad. It does mean that you aren't interested in replaying those parts and you wish it were easier/cheaper to skip it so you could get to the parts you really want to do on your multiple characters.

    Incorrect. Its bad design because as I already stated the goal is profit first, fun second. ZOS is not willing to take the gamble of creating a compelling product with hopes that they got the formula correct to create a happy customer base. Instead, they lure the customer in, then slap them with an extra game charge every time they want to do something.

    Fun games are like Disneyland, you pay, you go inside, you have fun.
    ESO is like a sideshow carnival, you pay, you go inside, you pay again to ride the cheesy roller coaster, you pay again to ride the cheesy ferris wheel, you pay again to.....
    The logical conclusion: ZOS should just give us all the option to use PTS Template characters on Live, that way no one ever has to do any content they find boring or mundane in order to jump straight to the content they want to do.

    (Or not.)

    No, the obvious solution is to design the game to be fun first, and when they have done their jobs correct, they will reap the reward of massive profit.

    We're gonna have to agree to disagree, because "its not fun!" is inherently subjective.

    I liked the Psijic Order line and thought it was the easiest skill line to grind on new characters after Fighters Guild. Go ahead, feel free to mock my sense of humor. The Mages Guild is a lot more fun when I don't treat it like the gaming equivalent of cleaning my room. I can usually collect the books as I explore. Then again, apparently I'm one of those weird people who explores zones as I level through questing instead of grinding straight to level 50, since I cannot stand running circles around the same three dolmens.

    IMO, this has more to do with attitude than game design. Its not bad game design for a roleplaying game to expect you to play the game again when you level a new character, which has been true long before the skill lines for sale, so its not true that ZOS did it just to drive sales. Nor is "I'm not having fun" proof of bad game design. That's incredibly subjective, and also very vulnerable to players overdoing it. Something can be fun the first couple times, but by the time soneone is working on their 18th alt, most games are going to struggle with replayability and maintaining a level of "fun" at that point. That's true even in games with no continuing monetization.


    On the other hand, I'm not going to bother trying to convince you to change your attitude or your opinion about the skill lines or what you find fun. That would be pointless, since its all entirely subjective, as is my own opinion, obviously.

    This is not subjective.

    The guild design is created to make you grind in order to compete in end game. Most of if not every build in game requires guild spells/talents to be competitive in pvp or trials. Due to ZOS nerfing spells/skills and races and classes every three months, some of those builds do not work so people create other classes to fulfill the role they once held with their peers.

    Grinding out mages guild AGAIN, or fighters AGAIN, or psijic AGAIN is not fun, that is not even subjective...they are mundane tasks that MOST people will not find intriguing, however we still need them to enjoy end game content.

    THE ANSWER that ZOS should implement is making these guilds unlock PER ACCOUNT once you have done them on one character, NOT CHARGE to unlock them.

    You may not possess the ability to see their design goals behind what they do, I can...I do it for a living and this game is suffering IMMESELY due to the fact that the game is designed to funnel people to the crown store. Pets is one thing, mounts is one thing. Skill lines however are not, it just reeks of greed.

    The fact that there is ONE bank for all your toons is a prime example, then making bank slot unlocks more and more expensive as you level. Most people can not afford that. But its ok, we have a crown store solution. For only 10 dollars more, you too can unlock some bank slots.

    IN other MMORPGS, you get a bank per character.

    Hmm...odd, bank slots are shared, unlocks are not, achievements are not. Ya, I am seeing a pattern here in their design, and its pathetic.
    CREATING IN GAME PROBLEMS TO OFFER YOU CROWN STORE SOLUTIONS
    THIS IS ALL RATHER INSIDIOUS AND CRINGEWORTHY -R
  • FrancisCrawford
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    Boring grinds are definitely NOT restricted to MMOs that offer you a cash way to get around them.
  • Dusk_Coven
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    A lot of PvP'ers paying real money to curbstomp newbs in under-50's BGs disagree.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/493330/pre-50-bgs-are-now-pay-to-win

    Maybe ZOS can steadily raise the cost. See how much they can milk from this.
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on September 30, 2019 5:54AM
  • KillsAllElves
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    Dusk_Coven wrote: »
    A lot of PvP'ers paying real money to curbstomp newbs in under-50's BGs disagree.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/493330/pre-50-bgs-are-now-pay-to-win

    Maybe ZOS can steadily raise the cost. See how much they can milk from this.

    If thats the case im all for if your account has 1-800+CP, your new characters can not play non vet campaign and are forced into the 30 day.
  • idk
    idk
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    Raideen wrote: »
    Raideen wrote: »
    This isn't anything new. Riding lessons are the epitome of "boring, mundane, lengthy task that you can skip with crowns."

    It does not have to be new to be bad game design. The primary philosophy in this games design is to funnel the player to the crown store. I argue heavily that designing a game to make money first and fun second is the wrong way to go about it.
    On the other hand? Some game design isn't bad. It just becomes mundane and boring when you do it for the nth time because you want to play a bunch of alts at high level as fast as possible. Even Skyrim gets boring when you've replayed Bleak Falls Barrow for the 18th time.
    Please provide an example because grinding mages guild the first time was boring. I actually quit the game when Summerset came out BECASUE of the Psijic grind. It was utterly mundane and the jokes were not even remotely funny enough to entertain a human.
    If you treat the Guild skill lines and skyshard hunting like they are the list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame PVP or PVE with your friends, then of course you are going to think they are mundane and boring.
    Except that they ARE a list of chores your mom told you to do before you can play endgame.
    It doesnt mean the game design is bad. It does mean that you aren't interested in replaying those parts and you wish it were easier/cheaper to skip it so you could get to the parts you really want to do on your multiple characters.

    Incorrect. Its bad design because as I already stated the goal is profit first, fun second. ZOS is not willing to take the gamble of creating a compelling product with hopes that they got the formula correct to create a happy customer base. Instead, they lure the customer in, then slap them with an extra game charge every time they want to do something.

    Fun games are like Disneyland, you pay, you go inside, you have fun.
    ESO is like a sideshow carnival, you pay, you go inside, you pay again to ride the cheesy roller coaster, you pay again to ride the cheesy ferris wheel, you pay again to.....
    The logical conclusion: ZOS should just give us all the option to use PTS Template characters on Live, that way no one ever has to do any content they find boring or mundane in order to jump straight to the content they want to do.

    (Or not.)

    No, the obvious solution is to design the game to be fun first, and when they have done their jobs correct, they will reap the reward of massive profit.

    We're gonna have to agree to disagree, because "its not fun!" is inherently subjective.

    I liked the Psijic Order line and thought it was the easiest skill line to grind on new characters after Fighters Guild. Go ahead, feel free to mock my sense of humor. The Mages Guild is a lot more fun when I don't treat it like the gaming equivalent of cleaning my room. I can usually collect the books as I explore. Then again, apparently I'm one of those weird people who explores zones as I level through questing instead of grinding straight to level 50, since I cannot stand running circles around the same three dolmens.

    IMO, this has more to do with attitude than game design. Its not bad game design for a roleplaying game to expect you to play the game again when you level a new character, which has been true long before the skill lines for sale, so its not true that ZOS did it just to drive sales. Nor is "I'm not having fun" proof of bad game design. That's incredibly subjective, and also very vulnerable to players overdoing it. Something can be fun the first couple times, but by the time soneone is working on their 18th alt, most games are going to struggle with replayability and maintaining a level of "fun" at that point. That's true even in games with no continuing monetization.


    On the other hand, I'm not going to bother trying to convince you to change your attitude or your opinion about the skill lines or what you find fun. That would be pointless, since its all entirely subjective, as is my own opinion, obviously.

    This is not subjective.

    The guild design is created to make you grind in order to compete in end game. Most of if not every build in game requires guild spells/talents to be competitive in pvp or trials. Due to ZOS nerfing spells/skills and races and classes every three months, some of those builds do not work so people create other classes to fulfill the role they once held with their peers.

    Grinding out mages guild AGAIN, or fighters AGAIN, or psijic AGAIN is not fun, that is not even subjective...they are mundane tasks that MOST people will not find intriguing, however we still need them to enjoy end game content.

    THE ANSWER that ZOS should implement is making these guilds unlock PER ACCOUNT once you have done them on one character, NOT CHARGE to unlock them.

    You may not possess the ability to see their design goals behind what they do, I can...I do it for a living and this game is suffering IMMESELY due to the fact that the game is designed to funnel people to the crown store. Pets is one thing, mounts is one thing. Skill lines however are not, it just reeks of greed.

    The fact that there is ONE bank for all your toons is a prime example, then making bank slot unlocks more and more expensive as you level. Most people can not afford that. But its ok, we have a crown store solution. For only 10 dollars more, you too can unlock some bank slots.

    IN other MMORPGS, you get a bank per character.

    Hmm...odd, bank slots are shared, unlocks are not, achievements are not. Ya, I am seeing a pattern here in their design, and its pathetic.

    First of all, it is subjective. While you are trying to suggest it is not subjective you are in fact proving it is. You have literally proven it as a fact that the guild designs are enjoyable by some and not by others. Even after doing some quests multiple times I still enjoy hitting them up from time to time.

    Further, in any game every aspect of leveling up a character can become nothing more than a grind. While older games tend to grand more XP to make leveling fast, as has occurred with ESO, they tend to sell conveniences to make it even faster/easier via the cash shop. Zos has done nothing new here. Also, leveling up the fighters guild is the easier. If that is a grind then maybe a different game is best. All of them can be obtained pretty fast for a focused players.

    Beyond that, it is clear Zos did not design the fighters and mage guild nor the Undaunted with the idea of selling unlocks via cash. Heck, two of them were designed over 5 years before these unlocks hit the cash shop (AvA can be lumped into here). Undaunted was added over 4 years beforehand.

    Buy the convenience or not but you will have to deal with the design.

    Oh, the purchasing bank slots is pretty absurd. It is so easy to get in game. I had the bank and bags on two characters mostly unlocked by the time my first two characters hit lvl 50 when the game launched. When they added slots to character bank space it was not issue maxing it out on 4 characters. If someone is having issues with unlocking bank space they are wasting gold and it is a personal issue.
    Really, idk
  • Zer0_CooL
    Zer0_CooL
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    Its free if you play the game.

    You and me have a different understanding of what playing a game should be like.
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