Class Identity started very simply.
DK = Tank
Templar = Healer
Nightblade = stealthy damage dealer
Sorcerer = spell-casty damage dealer with pets

Then players started going "Why can't I heal/tank/DPS on my chosen class?"

Then ZOS introduced the Warden, who needs to fit in somewhere. So ZOS carved out a niche (largely out of Templars and DKs) so end game groups had a reason to include Wardens.

By the time we get to the Necromancer and the latest Combat Q&A, ZOS has decided that each class ought to be able to heal, tank, and DPS. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/

Relevant quote, my bolding:

"With the ongoing skill audits, what is the ultimate goal for standardization? Where does class identity fall in the audit?
The Audit is something that needed to occur before class identity could be resolved. Imagine a yardstick with inches and centimeters changing how much distance was between each one - that’s what the Audit aimed to resolve, providing overall structure to abilities. Now that abilities have a standard to adhere to, we can address where classes achieve their unique feel working with those standards in mind. Each class will have a distinct feel and play pattern associated with a fantasy based on where their power is derived from.

What’s the design intent for all the classes?
Classes should have the tools in their class lines to be able to fill any role (Tank, DPS or Healer) with the other skill lines helping to broaden the toolset."

Class identity has nothing to do with DK's being only tanks (for example), but is focused on making the class spells more appealing.

For example if you had a Stam warden in pve you'd have 2 stamina abilities slotted. The subterranean assault and the bear. Everything else is more or less filled with fighters guild, psyjik order, dual wield, bow, etc. So they change the spells and added stamina morphs allowing you to create a variety of rotations and use more then 2 spells from their own class.
Not sure if this was said in the twitch dev talk but I believe it was.

So some spells have had really nice changes others not so great, depends how you want to see it. Also everybody screaming nerf, but you overlooked, that weapon and spell damage has been alternated to be calculated at the end, giving you more weapon and spell damage in total (every class has actually been nerfed and buffed the same time).

VaranisArano wrote: »

Lyserus wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Relevant quote, my bolding:

"With the ongoing skill audits, what is the ultimate goal for standardization? Where does class identity fall in the audit?
The Audit is something that needed to occur before class identity could be resolved. Imagine a yardstick with inches and centimeters changing how much distance was between each one - that’s what the Audit aimed to resolve, providing overall structure to abilities. Now that abilities have a standard to adhere to, we can address where classes achieve their unique feel working with those standards in mind. Each class will have a distinct feel and play pattern associated with a fantasy based on where their power is derived from.

What’s the design intent for all the classes?
Classes should have the tools in their class lines to be able to fill any role (Tank, DPS or Healer) with the other skill lines helping to broaden the toolset."

That answer avoided my original question tho..

Your disappoint was matched by a number of others in the Combat Q&A thread.

Read the whole Q&A and you'll see that vague emphasis on every class being able to tank, heal, and DPS repeated.

"Why are class abilities often weaker than their generic counterpart? Is it intended that there is less class identity?
As noted above, class identity is next on our list of things to hit. Our overall goal is that each class has enough tools fulfill each of the roles."

*signs

Have any players summaried our current class identity? or in the PTS?

The classes were defined by the skills they had at the start of the game.

To get a feel for class identity just go read any class description or simply go read the 3 skills line titles for each class. The three types of skills will define a class.

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Classes

It starts with the feeling of the class, where and how it gets its power. Then add in skills and passives that support the feels. Make buffs that feel strong, damage types, effects etc. It all creates a feel for the class. Think about DK's they draw on strength of dragon's they have ...err had...reflective scales...this felt cool. They did awesome DOT's fracturing with noxius breath or doing great fire damage. Tons of cool stuff.

Nightblade think of them as shadowy assassins. They buff up with spectral bow....err they use to buff up with spectral bow,,,,attacking from the shadows....fracturing their opponents armor...err they use to fracture armor. And time in killers blade to deal execute damage.

Sorcs...masters of AOE's....damage shields and conjured pets....err use to be master of pets. My mag sorc is my classic fantasy wizard. My stam sorc is modeled off a Samurai duel wielding katanas and using a bow. He calls on the powers of wind to fuel damaging storms as he charges into battle as a fearless fighter.

Each class had a really unique feel to it. Unfortunately the dev's recklessly decided that classes having unique abilities made them situational unbalanced. This is really only an issue in PVP so I must assume the madness of destroying these beautifully crafted classes was done so that players in PVP no longer encountered unique abilities so the game was always balanced the way a fortnite player is perfectly balanced with all others. No class differences means balance.

What was not understood is that a lot of us play this game because it is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. We enjoy unique roles so if you take the uniqueness away you take away the fun of playing the game. This is why you see so much discontent on the forums. I've also learned that some people just don't have the same appetite for class feeling. They will make statements like nightblades are fine they still do good dps. As if this has anything to do with class identity, feel, or uniqueness. Those players are fine with they changes and don't understand why people are upset.

Those of us leaving may or may not have enough mass to matter. But we will find out which is case in the next few months.

Designer who's responsibility was plar, warden, dk, nb and as I recall partially sorcerer isn't in a company anymore, so new identity will be solely decided by new combat team and others involved.

The devs stated in the latest livestream that character style is up to the player. They also stated that balance is done with endgame PvP in mind (basically).

Like stated above they want people to be able to do various things regardless of class. So you decide what role you want to play and what class, and then the game tries to accomodate by giving you skills / morphs that help you do that.

This isn´t just done by the skill changes but you also have the 'level up advisor' advising you (I mean I turn it off immediately but I guess that´s what it does) according to if you want a tanky, damage-y or heal-y character. So while DKs might have started as tanks you now have Inferno Dragon, Venomous Dragon, Stoneskin Dragon and Elder Dragon.

This is following Elder Scrolls tradition.

If you are looking at top stats only when you try to make a build, class identity sort of goes out the window, though I guess 'DK tanks' are still kind of preferable. There is nothing strange about this. In Age of Empires 3 the Ottomans were designed to have a 'slow start' IIRC, but people found out that it was more effective to skip their first eco tech and just rush instead.

To me class identity is totally distinct from function

Class identity is not Tank, Healer, Damage Dealer. These are roles, not identities. All classes should be able to be any role.

Class identity is not the skillset the class has. The skills should be a reflection of the identity, not the identity itself.

Class identity is about the unique characteristics of that class, what makes a DK, say, unique and distinct from any other class and how that might be reflected in that class’s skills and gameplay.

I think you are kind of contradicting yourself here. Class identity isn´t the skillset, but yet the skillset should be dependent on the identity, also all classes should be able to do anything, but they should be distinct?

A taunt is a taunt is a taunt.

What, exactly, would you mean by class identity then?


There are lorebooks in the game, some pretty interesting, that explain the lore and in-world "science" of each class, like "Stepping Through Shadows" for Nightblades.

And you have unique skills for each class which fit their archetype, while being ostensibly able to do anything. However, templars, despite having a 'light of the divines' skilline and a knight-in-shining-armour archetype, can still be played as evil vampires.

Could you give an example of what you mean by identity?

When I first made my Templar, I chose the class because skills looked cool. After 300cp, I decided to tank in dungeons starting from the easiest to the most difficult vet DLC ones. Guess what? I found out that a Templar isnt the best class for tanking. Not saying you can't tank with it but it lacks sustain and certain group support skills that would make your life easier

This is on you, not the devs.

Any class can fulfill any role. Any problem is solvable problem. Of course not everything is going to be a completely optimal solution.

You lack sustain from your class? Put on a sustain set. Use rune focus.

You don´t have DK chains but want to chain enemies in? Get fighter´s guild 'silver leash'.

You want to buff your trial group with major brutality / sorcery but don´t have igneous weapons? Tough luck, but people should be able to self-buff, or have another character in the 12-man group be a DK.

As a templar tank you have blazing shield and backlash, which are good tank skills that other classes cannot copy.

Also, they put in the skill advisor.

You, sir, are willfully ignoring tons of content in order to simply rant.

You are part of what is wrong with this community.

Still in level 25 and looks like a nightmare reaching 160cp.

Btw, CP is account-wide.

Class identity is exactly that - Those strange values and ideals that define the class. In a IRL way it is identical to brand identity... it is that unique combination of characteristics and values that enables you to distinguish between one brand and another. And it is made manifest in what you called the ‘archetype’ of a class...

...TL:DR class identity is all those things your character would tell you about themselves if only they could talk... everything else is built on that.

Well ok, taunt was a poor choice, I should have written 'DoT' or something.

But like I said above, there are backstories for the classes. You can read 'interview with a warden' (don´t know the exact title) from the Morrowind launch. If you look up the classes on UESP they have links to lorebooks describing how the Nightblade teleport works, to some, albeit brief, discussions on DK magic.

It is just that the backstories are just flavour, since the intent is that you make up your character´s background. The tutorial starts are somewhat nonsensical with DLC added, but Morrowind got it mostly right (both the DLC and TES 3). You are a pretty blank slate arriving in a world.

And, like Skyrim, ESO is moving away from having classes doing specific things. I mean, TES has gone from classes, to not having classes. Same as they have gone from max level to no level ceiling. No need to put in artificial boundaries.

So, unlike Diablo, where the barbarian class is a very specific person with fairly specific ideals, in ESO you get to choose the backstory. My first templar was a 'disillusioned knight corrupted by vampires'. So you choose your role.

Well, mostly. A lot of the time you have to ignore the dialogue in order to roleplay, since actual role-play decisions like "what to do with captain Helane" are few and far between. I guess they have sort of abandoned that, at least for the time being.

What you say is how things SHOULD be, not how they are. Try joining a vet Trial group with a Templar tank and let me know what the group members will tell you.

I can tonight, but my previous experience has been like this:

(Chat)

Person X: "LFM 1T vSO"

Me: "Hi, ok if I tank without chains, I know mechanics"

Person X: "Sure, we just want to do the dungeon"

*Does dungeon*

Me and person X in chat: "GG all ty for run".

The way the game is made, forces you to make characters with specific classes for every role. Fact. If you dont believe it, make a poll and let people choose what the ideal tanking class is and see which comes first with a HUGE distance from the second.

That is chasing the meta. Or FoTM.

When I see stuff like that, I get all smug and remember the polls in AoE3 giving the result that Japan was 'sub-par', then going online and doing Toshogu Shrine shrinespam and generally being ridicu-OP.

Again, if you are playing on a group that is relying on specific tactics and specific skills being used, that is on you and the group. Not the game.

You can tank a vet trial with a templar, pulling your weight while buffing the group.

Hence the idea that templars cannot be tanks, is wrong.

I said that most people will not want you in the group because they will miss certain group support abilities DKs provide.

And I said find better people. What do you want the devs to do: put in a skill advisor that goes "the meta as of version 2.1992.128388 is that you need 5h+1m+1l with 2 sturdy pieces" when you get to level 26?

This is like buying a Toyota and then complaining that you cannot race it in the "Ford Focus only race", and saying the car company should have warned you 8-)

Lyserus wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Lyserus wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Relevant quote, my bolding:

"With the ongoing skill audits, what is the ultimate goal for standardization? Where does class identity fall in the audit?
The Audit is something that needed to occur before class identity could be resolved. Imagine a yardstick with inches and centimeters changing how much distance was between each one - that’s what the Audit aimed to resolve, providing overall structure to abilities. Now that abilities have a standard to adhere to, we can address where classes achieve their unique feel working with those standards in mind. Each class will have a distinct feel and play pattern associated with a fantasy based on where their power is derived from.

What’s the design intent for all the classes?
Classes should have the tools in their class lines to be able to fill any role (Tank, DPS or Healer) with the other skill lines helping to broaden the toolset."

That answer avoided my original question tho..

Your disappoint was matched by a number of others in the Combat Q&A thread.

Read the whole Q&A and you'll see that vague emphasis on every class being able to tank, heal, and DPS repeated.

"Why are class abilities often weaker than their generic counterpart? Is it intended that there is less class identity?
As noted above, class identity is next on our list of things to hit. Our overall goal is that each class has enough tools fulfill each of the roles."

*signs

Have any players summaried our current class identity? or in the PTS?

I mean...I can do a snarky version if you like? (Purely tongue in cheek)

MagDK "fire-themed tank who's class DOTs are about to get nerf-hammered"
StamDK "poison-themed tank who's class DOTs are about to get nerf-hammered"

MagPlar "Wait, you aren't playing a shard-spamming healer? Oh, right, MagPlar is OP this patch. Disco ball light show for everyone!"
Stamplar "Jabby, jabby!"

MagBlade "Stealthy, cloaking, stabbing health sapper...but not a sap tank, nope, can't have that."
Stamblade "Stabby, stabby!"

MagSorc "Comes in two varieties: pet sorc or sparky-sparky"
Stam Sorc "strong AOEs, weaker single target. Here, have a new pet!"

MagWarden "We promise you aren't a discount Templar healer with a few niche buffs. You have pets!"
StamWarden "Burst damage for PVP, Stamina heals, what more could you want?"

Necromancer "A WIP. Some of our skills still don't work."