Did Dev ever defined the identity of each class?

gatekeeper13

MaleAmazon wrote: »

This is like buying a Toyota and then complaining that you cannot race it in the "Ford Focus only race", and saying the car company should have warned you 8-)

That's why I said that ZOS should hint people on character creation menu of what every class can do best, because many are new to MMOs and dont have a clue. For example, that the suggested DK role is a tank, Templar - healer, Nightblade - dd etc etc

When a company makes a class so gifted in a specific sector (group support for DK), it leads people into choosing this class and ignoring others. That's why 90% of Trial groups ask for DKs. Because a DK will boost group in both DPS and survivability while other classes will underperform. Period.

VaranisArano

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

This is like buying a Toyota and then complaining that you cannot race it in the "Ford Focus only race", and saying the car company should have warned you 8-)

That's why I said that ZOS should hint people on character creation menu of what every class can do best, because many are new to MMOs and dont have a clue. For example, that the suggested DK role is a tank, Templar - healer, Nightblade - dd etc etc

When a company makes a class so gifted in a specific sector (group support for DK), it leads people into choosing this class and ignoring others. That's why 90% of Trial groups ask for DKs. Because a DK will boost group in both DPS and survivability while other classes will underperform. Period.

Which would make sense...if that's what ZOS wanted to do.

They don't. The recent Combat Q&A is all about "each class should be able to tank, heal, and DPS" and we see that same philosophy in the Skills Advisor where you can pick a basic build, a tank build, a healer build, and damage dealing builds for each class.

ZOS isnt going to be able to make the meta go away or make it so the playerbase doesnt pick one class over the others. What they clearly don't want to do is pigeonhole new players into a certain class/role combination anymore.

VaranisArano

@Lyserus

If you havent already seen it: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/495281/official-discussion-thread-for-developer-deep-dive-let-s-talk-about-class-identity-in-eso#latest

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

VaranisArano wrote: »

Class Identity started very simply.
DK = Tank
Templar = Healer
Nightblade = stealthy damage dealer
Sorcerer = spell-casty damage dealer with pets

Then players started going "Why can't I heal/tank/DPS on my chosen class?"

Then ZOS introduced the Warden, who needs to fit in somewhere. So ZOS carved out a niche (largely out of Templars and DKs) so end game groups had a reason to include Wardens.

By the time we get to the Necromancer and the latest Combat Q&A, ZOS has decided that each class ought to be able to heal, tank, and DPS. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/

Relevant quote, my bolding:

"With the ongoing skill audits, what is the ultimate goal for standardization? Where does class identity fall in the audit?
The Audit is something that needed to occur before class identity could be resolved. Imagine a yardstick with inches and centimeters changing how much distance was between each one - that’s what the Audit aimed to resolve, providing overall structure to abilities. Now that abilities have a standard to adhere to, we can address where classes achieve their unique feel working with those standards in mind. Each class will have a distinct feel and play pattern associated with a fantasy based on where their power is derived from.

What’s the design intent for all the classes?
Classes should have the tools in their class lines to be able to fill any role (Tank, DPS or Healer) with the other skill lines helping to broaden the toolset."

not rly...in the beginning we were supposed to play the way we want...and ever class was able to do every role exemplary but with its own way of things...u only had to know how to play...then...then forums came...and people started to cry...and devs panicked...and gave them the warm milk bottle...and here we are now

FierceSam

VaranisArano wrote: »

Lyserus wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Lyserus wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Relevant quote, my bolding:

"With the ongoing skill audits, what is the ultimate goal for standardization? Where does class identity fall in the audit?
The Audit is something that needed to occur before class identity could be resolved. Imagine a yardstick with inches and centimeters changing how much distance was between each one - that’s what the Audit aimed to resolve, providing overall structure to abilities. Now that abilities have a standard to adhere to, we can address where classes achieve their unique feel working with those standards in mind. Each class will have a distinct feel and play pattern associated with a fantasy based on where their power is derived from.

What’s the design intent for all the classes?
Classes should have the tools in their class lines to be able to fill any role (Tank, DPS or Healer) with the other skill lines helping to broaden the toolset."

That answer avoided my original question tho..

Your disappoint was matched by a number of others in the Combat Q&A thread.

Read the whole Q&A and you'll see that vague emphasis on every class being able to tank, heal, and DPS repeated.

"Why are class abilities often weaker than their generic counterpart? Is it intended that there is less class identity?
As noted above, class identity is next on our list of things to hit. Our overall goal is that each class has enough tools fulfill each of the roles."

*signs

Have any players summaried our current class identity? or in the PTS?

I mean...I can do a snarky version if you like? (Purely tongue in cheek)

MagDK "fire-themed tank who's class DOTs are about to get nerf-hammered"
StamDK "poison-themed tank who's class DOTs are about to get nerf-hammered"

MagPlar "Wait, you aren't playing a shard-spamming healer? Oh, right, MagPlar is OP this patch. Disco ball light show for everyone!"
Stamplar "Jabby, jabby!"

MagBlade "Stealthy, cloaking, stabbing health sapper...but not a sap tank, nope, can't have that."
Stamblade "Stabby, stabby!"

MagSorc "Comes in two varieties: pet sorc or sparky-sparky"
Stam Sorc "strong AOEs, weaker single target. Here, have a new pet!"

MagWarden "We promise you aren't a discount Templar healer with a few niche buffs. You have pets!"
StamWarden "Burst damage for PVP, Stamina heals, what more could you want?"

Necromancer "A WIP. Some of our skills still don't work."

Very drole...:)

Except you have already moved beyond Class identity

Class identity should be so basic to a class that <i>both</i> Mag and Stam versions of that class share exactly the same class identity. Just as a tank, dd or healer version of that class does.

From a class identity point of view there should be no difference between a DK stam tank and a DK mag healer - they are both Dragonknights and they share the qualities that separate DKs from all other classes. And that identity is unique and different from that of all other classes.


In terms of the Class identity article. I think it's very helpful. It sets out what ZOS's philosophy is on this, says that their ambition is to try to ensure that the majority skill bar slots are filled with class skills, and it recognises that basically every single Stam build has essentially been the same - a set of weapons skills with a couple of class spammables/executes thrown in for good measure, which clearly messes with class identity. It indicates that this is a long road and certainly won't be sorted out this patch, but at least they will have taken some initial steps.

Kagukan

VaranisArano wrote: »

Class Identity started very simply.
DK = Tank
Templar = Healer
Nightblade = stealthy damage dealer
Sorcerer = spell-casty damage dealer with pets

Then players started going "Why can't I heal/tank/DPS on my chosen class?"

Then ZOS introduced the Warden, who needs to fit in somewhere. So ZOS carved out a niche (largely out of Templars and DKs) so end game groups had a reason to include Wardens.

By the time we get to the Necromancer and the latest Combat Q&A, ZOS has decided that each class ought to be able to heal, tank, and DPS. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/

Relevant quote, my bolding:

"With the ongoing skill audits, what is the ultimate goal for standardization? Where does class identity fall in the audit?
The Audit is something that needed to occur before class identity could be resolved. Imagine a yardstick with inches and centimeters changing how much distance was between each one - that’s what the Audit aimed to resolve, providing overall structure to abilities. Now that abilities have a standard to adhere to, we can address where classes achieve their unique feel working with those standards in mind. Each class will have a distinct feel and play pattern associated with a fantasy based on where their power is derived from.

What’s the design intent for all the classes?
Classes should have the tools in their class lines to be able to fill any role (Tank, DPS or Healer) with the other skill lines helping to broaden the toolset."

If any class can fill any role equally is there really class identity? Having one class use swords and another using staves is not true class identity.

karekiz

Generic class identity:

Tank resist skills:
DK = Dmg shield
Warden = Group buff armor
Sorc = AoE dmg
Templar = Sustain/Double armor values, but limited range
NightBlade = Shadow barrier passive limited duration
Necro = Free Chain ability built in

Thats basically a tiny bit of class identity essentially. Some are definitely more fleshed out then others, but otherwise they each do the same thing for the tank. Increase armor, but have different side effects or in the case of NB proc condition.

Iccotak

like @VaranisArano said the goal is to have any class fulfill any role -class identity pertains to the fact that not every healer plays the same.
A Nightblade Healer and Templar Healer don't play the same
A DK Tank and Warden tank don't play the same
playing a DPS character with any of the classes is going to be a different experience

that is where class identity matters

MattT1988

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

When I first made my Templar, I chose the class because skills looked cool. After 300cp, I decided to tank in dungeons starting from the easiest to the most difficult vet DLC ones. Guess what? I found out that a Templar isnt the best class for tanking. Not saying you can't tank with it but it lacks sustain and certain group support skills that would make your life easier

This is on you, not the devs.

Any class can fulfill any role. Any problem is solvable problem. Of course not everything is going to be a completely optimal solution.

You lack sustain from your class? Put on a sustain set. Use rune focus.

You don´t have DK chains but want to chain enemies in? Get fighter´s guild 'silver leash'.

You want to buff your trial group with major brutality / sorcery but don´t have igneous weapons? Tough luck, but people should be able to self-buff, or have another character in the 12-man group be a DK.

As a templar tank you have blazing shield and backlash, which are good tank skills that other classes cannot copy.

Also, they put in the skill advisor.

You, sir, are willfully ignoring tons of content in order to simply rant.

You are part of what is wrong with this community.

Still in level 25 and looks like a nightmare reaching 160cp.

Btw, CP is account-wide.

What you say is how things SHOULD be, not how they are. Try joining a vet Trial group with a Templar tank and let me know what the group members will tell you.

Rune focus replenishes stamina. What about health? Chains use magicka and give back the cost if the target is immune. Silver Leash uses stamina and the cost is lost if target is immune. Put all these on top of puncture, block, low slash and caltrops and lets see what happens to your stamina. Backlash is only useful for the Minor Fracture/Breach. +10% spell dmg is useful only if you have sorcerers in group, not dd's with melee dmg. Blazing shield is useless. I use Radiant ward which is amazing for the tank but useless for the group. Igneous shield on the other hand, provides shields to everyone.

The way the game is made, forces you to make characters with specific classes for every role. Fact. If you dont believe it, make a poll and let people choose what the ideal tanking class is and see which two come first (DK/Warden) with a HUGE distance from the third one.

MattT1988 wrote: »

Ummmm you do realise you only have to level it to level 50 right and your Tank becomes CP 810 as CP is account wide........

Yeah but what about set pieces lvl you loot from dungeons? Its my second character and dont know how it works.

What do you mean? When your individual character hits level 50, your loot depends on your CP. If you’ve got 810 CP, you’ll get max level gear.