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Combat changes destroyed end-game population.
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Blackbird_V✭✭✭✭✭
✭TumlinTheJolly wrote: »I'll only start playing again when they officially announce that they're going to significantly slow down / limit balance changes. Patch after patch I barely got to play my builds before the next round of balace changes came along. Can't imagine how rough that is for more casual players.
"Balance" lmfao. Nah this isn't balance. I'm not playing any more because by this time next year, if nothing changes, vAS+3 speedrun hm will be impossible to do. They don't know how to balance properly. I miss Wrobel, at least he didn't slaughter the game in the rate these guys are.Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.17 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.
I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).
...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good luck doing godslayer with 30k dps
Didn't know you earned Godslayer in vMoL... oh, wait, that's right, it's because you don't.
If you're trying to earn Godslayer in vMoL, that might be why you're having such a hard time getting it.
Why do people keep bringing up vMoL and Craglorn trials? It doesn't prove anything, it's old content. In many other mmos old content often becomes obsolete. vMoL and Craglorn are not completely useless at least.
Can we talk about more relevant stuff like vCR and vSS?
In many other MMOs, the level cap increases with each release, rendering old content irrelevant.
In many other MMOs, older content is completely abandoned.
In many other MMOs, gear is bound to character, rather than account.
In many other MMOs, open world PvP is enabled, and you can be ganked by hostile players almost as soon as you start a new character.
In many other MMOs, you're asked to pick from a massive list of severs and can only interact with other players who selected the same one. If you know someone IRL, and they picked a different server, you're SoL for playing with them.
Can we talk about more relevant stuff like ESO, and not what "many other MMOs" do?
In ESO, content isn't rendered irrelevant the instant a new zone hits. The early trials are still very relevant because of IA, VO, Alkosh, and a number of other sets which still see some use.
So, yes, let's stick to the relevant part of the discussion, which is to say, vMoL and Crag are still relevant. And, while we're on that subject, the DPS checks in vAS, vCR, and vHoF aren't nearly as brutal as a lot of people seem to think.2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MehrunesFlagon wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.
I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).
...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good luck doing godslayer with 30k dps
Didn't know you earned Godslayer in vMoL... oh, wait, that's right, it's because you don't.
If you're trying to earn Godslayer in vMoL, that might be why you're having such a hard time getting it.
We aren't going to be limited to 30k dps.I think he was talking about other trial achievements anyway. Godslayer may need to be changed perhaps. That's on Mike Finn though.
He was, but he was leaping into a discussion on how as a community, we massively overestimate the stress in a DPS check. There isn't a single DPS check in the game that requires more than 50k (which is on the path to Godslayer, BTW.) So, when people are like, "My DPS is ruined," and their still pulling north of 50k, there is nothing for them to do with that much damage.0 -
heaven13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »MehrunesFlagon wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.
I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).
...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good luck doing godslayer with 30k dps
Didn't know you earned Godslayer in vMoL... oh, wait, that's right, it's because you don't.
If you're trying to earn Godslayer in vMoL, that might be why you're having such a hard time getting it.
We aren't going to be limited to 30k dps.I think he was talking about other trial achievements anyway. Godslayer may need to be changed perhaps. That's on Mike Finn though.
He was, but he was leaping into a discussion on how as a community, we massively overestimate the stress in a DPS check. There isn't a single DPS check in the game that requires more than 50k (which is on the path to Godslayer, BTW.) So, when people are like, "My DPS is ruined," and their still pulling north of 50k, there is nothing for them to do with that much damage.
Someone posted that 30k used to be considered god tier, back for vMoL. Someone else responded good luck getting Godslayer with 30k. That's not "massively overestimating" the stress in a dps check because the new trials are absolutely designed with different dps requirements in game than older ones. You can redirect back to vMoL if you want, but it misses the point that was being made which is what was good enough for trials back then (2016) isn't the same standard trials are being made to follow in 2019.PC/NAMountain God | Leave No Bone Unbroken | Apex Predator | Pure Lunacy | Depths Defier | No Rest for the Wicked | In Defiance of DeathMeet my characters :
Defanged the Devourer | Nature's Wrath | Relentless Raider | True Genius | Bane of Thorns | Subterranean Smasher | Ardent Bibliophile
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vDSA | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+2 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA | vRGIT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL THE SAME NOW, THANKS ZOS10 -
Slimebrow✭✭✭colossalvoids wrote: »Something is really wrong when people are not looking forward to the next patches but wonder if they just want to f with their playerbase even more.
People want to have fun in both pve and pvp, meanwhile the only fun you can get are communities like guilds and ingame friends it's not enough, people are seriously just fleeing and everybody can see that.
The thing is not in just reducing damage, it's fine if done in correct way, but it's 360 every patch and people are burning out with adapting while having real lives or playstyles they developed through years being destroyed. Classes stripped out of identity and feeling like reskins while they talking about reinforcing it.
And after looking at some changes like ulti cast times, netch while having sets like steadfast you can clearly see how serious they take all the other ''tweaks''.
Edit: meanwhile we're not playing f2p game in some alpha state, all this with dlc's priced almost as solid triple A titles.
Yeah I totally agree with you there.2 -
Wayshuba✭✭✭✭✭
GilliamtheRogue 1:01:50 min: "..what kind of players experience the game in different ways, and what is our target audience with some these changes. So like in some of these cases it's a numbers game which not everyone really cares about. The average player who's going to come on and just kill some dragons or stuff like that, they don't care if they're spammable is doing a billion damage..." (Emphasis mine.)
Wheeler: "Well I would."
They tried to walk it back, but it was pretty clear.
They go on to to say they are focused on the end game group. And that the endgame players "...thats's where a lot of the number balancing, in terms of why things get buffed or nerfed is, like, its focused on that group in terms of making sure that we have a healthy game that everyone can experience..." (Again emphasis mine.)
They are focused on the 1% the other 99% are not their "focus". That is why the game is suffering.
The combat team consists of a guy who does not do PvE content, and another one who thinks people who log onto kill dragons don't care about their dps so won't consider them in the combat decisions.
And this highlights how very wrong they are. So very, very wrong.
It is not about adjustments. People who play MMOs understand that happens. If they felt DPS was too high and they universally worked all the skills to say reduce it by 10% fine, at least I can keep the rotation I had developed and worked on because EVERYTHING dropped by 10%.
Instead, what we have is a complete mess from patch to patch because it changes the rotation meta. Not by a skill or maybe two, but basically blows up 90% of the builds. This is what people are completely fed up with - having to re-learn and re-equip their characters every three months.
I have 16 characters. Since this last patch (U23), I have only brought 3 of them up to the current meta. This will be wiped out - yet again - with U24 and I just don't have the tolerance left to want to update 16 characters just so it can be all blown up again come U27.
There is something different about the patch this time. I see it in guild chat and the discussions on Discord. People really are at their breaking point. When discussions now center around discussing the pros and cons of other games that is not a good sign. You see, if ZoS is going to wipe out all your work every three months, and bring you back to a restart, then you might as well restart in another MMO where your progress won't be wiped completely out every three months.
It is what it is. I will stand by my earlier comments that ZoS will not address this until the customer exodus damage is done. I was hoping not to be part of that, but a group of us started something new last night and if it goes well, we will be moving on from ESO. It is sad really, because the content is still very good and the content cadence is also good, but this combat team is so out of control they have overshadowed all the good the game is doing now.
I have a feeling, from my past experiences in big customer exoduses in other MMOs that ZoS is actually facing this with U24 should these combat changes go through as proposed. I do not expect them not to, so it is better to prepare to move on at this point.Edited by Wayshuba on September 22, 2019 3:52PM22 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »MehrunesFlagon wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.
I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).
...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good luck doing godslayer with 30k dps
Didn't know you earned Godslayer in vMoL... oh, wait, that's right, it's because you don't.
If you're trying to earn Godslayer in vMoL, that might be why you're having such a hard time getting it.
We aren't going to be limited to 30k dps.I think he was talking about other trial achievements anyway. Godslayer may need to be changed perhaps. That's on Mike Finn though.
He was, but he was leaping into a discussion on how as a community, we massively overestimate the stress in a DPS check. There isn't a single DPS check in the game that requires more than 50k (which is on the path to Godslayer, BTW.) So, when people are like, "My DPS is ruined," and their still pulling north of 50k, there is nothing for them to do with that much damage.
You think pulling "north of 50k DPS" is sufficient for God Slayer, eh?
You have a lot of experience in vSS HM to back up that statement?12 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.
I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).
...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good luck doing godslayer with 30k dps
Didn't know you earned Godslayer in vMoL... oh, wait, that's right, it's because you don't.
If you're trying to earn Godslayer in vMoL, that might be why you're having such a hard time getting it.
Why do people keep bringing up vMoL and Craglorn trials? It doesn't prove anything, it's old content. In many other mmos old content often becomes obsolete. vMoL and Craglorn are not completely useless at least.
Can we talk about more relevant stuff like vCR and vSS?
In many other MMOs, the level cap increases with each release, rendering old content irrelevant.
In many other MMOs, older content is completely abandoned.
In many other MMOs, gear is bound to character, rather than account.
In many other MMOs, open world PvP is enabled, and you can be ganked by hostile players almost as soon as you start a new character.
In many other MMOs, you're asked to pick from a massive list of severs and can only interact with other players who selected the same one. If you know someone IRL, and they picked a different server, you're SoL for playing with them.
Can we talk about more relevant stuff like ESO, and not what "many other MMOs" do?
In ESO, content isn't rendered irrelevant the instant a new zone hits. The early trials are still very relevant because of IA, VO, Alkosh, and a number of other sets which still see some use.
So, yes, let's stick to the relevant part of the discussion, which is to say, vMoL and Crag are still relevant. And, while we're on that subject, the DPS checks in vAS, vCR, and vHoF aren't nearly as brutal as a lot of people seem to think.
...And you've completely missed the point. Though at this point I'm pretty sure you do this on purpose.
Craglorn trials and vMoL were designed for dds with significantly lower dps. Newer trials aren't. You cannot use years old content as a benchmark, it doesn't make any sense. 30k was very high back in TG patch, and it's enough for vMoL achievements, but newer trials require much more. You simply can't claim that 30-40k is enough for everything, because it isn't from a pure technical standpoint. Have you seen how much health vSS bosses have?
Basically, if your dps is good enough to clear vSS hardmode, it means that you have enough dps for any other trial (because they require less). Having enough dps for vMoL and Craglorn trials, however, only means that you can do Craglorn trials and vMoL (newer trials have higher requirements). Full picture is more important than just one piece, that's why vSS is much more relevant than old content.
Edited by LadyNalcarya on September 23, 2019 3:02AMDro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU8 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »MehrunesFlagon wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.
I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).
...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good luck doing godslayer with 30k dps
Didn't know you earned Godslayer in vMoL... oh, wait, that's right, it's because you don't.
If you're trying to earn Godslayer in vMoL, that might be why you're having such a hard time getting it.
We aren't going to be limited to 30k dps.I think he was talking about other trial achievements anyway. Godslayer may need to be changed perhaps. That's on Mike Finn though.
He was, but he was leaping into a discussion on how as a community, we massively overestimate the stress in a DPS check. There isn't a single DPS check in the game that requires more than 50k (which is on the path to Godslayer, BTW.) So, when people are like, "My DPS is ruined," and their still pulling north of 50k, there is nothing for them to do with that much damage.
You think pulling "north of 50k DPS" is sufficient for God Slayer, eh?
You have a lot of experience in vSS HM to back up that statement?
You don't even need experience to see that, it's just basic math. You can see how much health the bosses have and what mechanics they have by watching a youtube vid.
It's honestly mind-boggling how people can be so ignorant.
vSS dps requirements are not a matter of perspective, they are a challenge created by ZOS. If they dont want people to push dps, then why do they keep releasing content that requires high dps?Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU14 -
Corpier✭✭✭✭The last trials team I was a part of gave up today. I no longer have a reason to play. You win ZOS, gg.@Corpier | PC/NA CP1300+
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A Príorí: Highelf - Magicka Sorcerer
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Corpier: Orc - Stamina Nightblade
Corpier: Orc - Stamina Sorcerer
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A Posteriori: Darkelf - Magicka Dragonknight
Bertha Ironsides: Imperial - Dragonknight Tank
Corpier: Breton - Magicka Templar
Corpíer: Orc - Stamina Templar
CorpÌer: Orc - Stamina Warden
Corpier: Orc - Stamina Necromancer
Logen'Bloody-Nine'Fingers: Orc - Stamina Dragonknight13 -
SeaUnicorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »MehrunesFlagon wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.
I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).
...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good luck doing godslayer with 30k dps
Didn't know you earned Godslayer in vMoL... oh, wait, that's right, it's because you don't.
If you're trying to earn Godslayer in vMoL, that might be why you're having such a hard time getting it.
We aren't going to be limited to 30k dps.I think he was talking about other trial achievements anyway. Godslayer may need to be changed perhaps. That's on Mike Finn though.
He was, but he was leaping into a discussion on how as a community, we massively overestimate the stress in a DPS check. There isn't a single DPS check in the game that requires more than 50k (which is on the path to Godslayer, BTW.) So, when people are like, "My DPS is ruined," and their still pulling north of 50k, there is nothing for them to do with that much damage.
You think pulling "north of 50k DPS" is sufficient for God Slayer, eh?
You have a lot of experience in vSS HM to back up that statement?
You don't even need experience to see that, it's just basic math. You can see how much health the bosses have and what mechanics they have by watching a youtube vid.
It's honestly mind-boggling how people can be so ignorant.
vSS dps requirements are not a matter of perspective, they are a challenge created by ZOS. If they dont want people to push dps, then why do they keep releasing content that requires high dps?
Agree. For instance portal on Nahvi has a DPS check, low DPS just can't down it fast enough. And longer you stay there - more difficult it gets with all the AOE ground damage and pins and what not.5 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »MehrunesFlagon wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.
I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).
...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good luck doing godslayer with 30k dps
Didn't know you earned Godslayer in vMoL... oh, wait, that's right, it's because you don't.
If you're trying to earn Godslayer in vMoL, that might be why you're having such a hard time getting it.
We aren't going to be limited to 30k dps.I think he was talking about other trial achievements anyway. Godslayer may need to be changed perhaps. That's on Mike Finn though.
He was, but he was leaping into a discussion on how as a community, we massively overestimate the stress in a DPS check. There isn't a single DPS check in the game that requires more than 50k (which is on the path to Godslayer, BTW.) So, when people are like, "My DPS is ruined," and their still pulling north of 50k, there is nothing for them to do with that much damage.
You think pulling "north of 50k DPS" is sufficient for God Slayer, eh?
You have a lot of experience in vSS HM to back up that statement?
You don't even need experience to see that, it's just basic math. You can see how much health the bosses have and what mechanics they have by watching a youtube vid.
It's honestly mind-boggling how people can be so ignorant.
vSS dps requirements are not a matter of perspective, they are a challenge created by ZOS. If they dont want people to push dps, then why do they keep releasing content that requires high dps?
Oh I know.
I'm just poking the bear.
There are numerous people here of that ilk. Oft-ridiculed in TRE. The notorious "forum warriors" who think that "I've played since beta" is a substitute for skill or real knowledge about the game.
In a number of threads trashing the (horrible, no good, very bad) current PTS patch, there's a handful of people pulling ye olde "durr what do you even need that much DPS for, I'm an end gamer and I'm glad damage is being nerfed." I keep trying to get these people to demonstrate their expertise in the end game: where are the achievements? Why can't I find them on esologs.com or on the leaderboards? Why don't I see them in any raiding Discords?
This whole schtick where people pretend to have some expert knowledge on a topic they demonstrably know absolutely nothing about is baffling to me.
They never respond when challenged, though.
But I mean really the mere act of saying something as blatantly stupid as "there isn't a single DPS check in the game that requires more than 50k (which is on the path to Godslayer, BTW)" is enough evidence for anyone who has a clue to ignore anything further that person has to say.
I'm not sure if it's white knighting or just being contrary for the sake of being contrary, but either way it's a bunch of hogwash.Edited by LiquidPony on September 23, 2019 5:54AM14 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »MehrunesFlagon wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.
I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).
...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good luck doing godslayer with 30k dps
Didn't know you earned Godslayer in vMoL... oh, wait, that's right, it's because you don't.
If you're trying to earn Godslayer in vMoL, that might be why you're having such a hard time getting it.
We aren't going to be limited to 30k dps.I think he was talking about other trial achievements anyway. Godslayer may need to be changed perhaps. That's on Mike Finn though.
He was, but he was leaping into a discussion on how as a community, we massively overestimate the stress in a DPS check. There isn't a single DPS check in the game that requires more than 50k (which is on the path to Godslayer, BTW.) So, when people are like, "My DPS is ruined," and their still pulling north of 50k, there is nothing for them to do with that much damage.
You think pulling "north of 50k DPS" is sufficient for God Slayer, eh?
You have a lot of experience in vSS HM to back up that statement?
You don't even need experience to see that, it's just basic math. You can see how much health the bosses have and what mechanics they have by watching a youtube vid.
It's honestly mind-boggling how people can be so ignorant.
vSS dps requirements are not a matter of perspective, they are a challenge created by ZOS. If they dont want people to push dps, then why do they keep releasing content that requires high dps?
Oh I know.
I'm just poking the bear.
There are numerous people here of that ilk. Oft-ridiculed in TRE. The notorious "forum warriors" who think that "I've played since beta" is a substitute for skill or real knowledge about the game.
In a number of threads trashing the (horrible, no good, very bad) current PTS patch, there's a handful of people pulling ye olde "durr what do you even need that much DPS for, I'm an end gamer and I'm glad damage is being nerfed." I keep trying to get these people to demonstrate their expertise in the end game: where are the achievements? Why can't I find them on esologs.com or on the leaderboards? Why don't I see them in any raiding Discords?
This whole schtick where people pretend to have some expert knowledge on a topic they demonstrably know absolutely nothing about is baffling to me.
They never respond when challenged, though.
But I mean really the mere act of saying something as blatantly stupid as "there isn't a single DPS check in the game that requires more than 50k (which is on the path to Godslayer, BTW)" is enough evidence for anyone who has a clue to ignore anything further that person has to say.
I'm not sure if it's white knighting or just being contrary for the sake of being contrary, but either way it's a bunch of hogwash.
Just from what I've seen, the overwhelming majority of the people who claim high dps isn't needed are not actually participating in any of the content that requires higher dps. They're running vanilla dungeons, craglorn/normal dificulty trials, and overland content, so their input isn't really valuable in this discussion and they're best to be ignored.PC/Xbox NA
Unchained | Unstoppable | Mindmender | Swashbuckler Supreme | Planes Breaker | Dawnbringer | Godslayer | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Tick-tock Tormentor | Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Stormproof | Grand Overlord | Grand Mastercrafter | Master Grappler | Tamriel Hero14 -
RebornV3x✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭anyways Ive noticed on PC and more so on Xbox thats its much harder to keep the same group members we get maybe 5 or 6 regulars and for the past month its been a revolving door of people in our main trial group and its rough trying to clear Vet content when half your group is new to trials and having to Barney style teach mechanics every week cause people keep leaving the game... its tiresome...
whether you like these changes or not its sustainable to have them every 3 months if you want a healthy endgame communityXbox One - NA GT: RebornV3x
I also play on PC from time to time but I just wanna be left alone on there so sorry.5 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Its WoW classic, it broke over a million views when it launched on Twitch....its got at least 2 million players playing it alone..https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »So, yes, let's stick to the relevant part of the discussion, which is to say, vMoL and Crag are still relevant. And, while we're on that subject, the DPS checks in vAS, vCR, and vHoF aren't nearly as brutal as a lot of people seem to think.
Thats cute.
So can we buff the drops of VMoL/ Craglorn to perfected reli/lok quality too? Its silly to balance for old content. It just is. I would rather go forward than backwards.
Changes since then:
CWC - Trait change <Massively reduced grind to BIS> reducing time it takes to get full sets and thus faster clears.
Summerset - 2 hand change - Allowed mag to get additional stats.
Summersets increase to LA dmg output <Not nerfed btw>
Perfected - Stat inflation
JC - Added traits such as Bloodthirsty, and improved AY at the same time.
Sets such as Reli/sor/lok come into play.
Necro comes in with...well its ult.
All of these are power creep. Every single one of them. Thats the issue that I see. We reduce damage. Hooray. Two years later you will see similar power creep due to additional sets etc. So they rebalance again, and again, and again. Its a waste of time basically.
Each chapter WILL have power creep. They thrive off the sales from it. You can't honestly believe they just "didn't see stam necro X8 DPS" as a thing with chainable major vul ults. Next chapter could be spellcrafting <Sure as hell looks like were heading that way with "All abilities do the same damage." quote, or something else, but they will always sell power.Edited by karekiz on September 23, 2019 10:02PM6 -
zsban✭✭✭✭Someone should explain the meaning of "progression group" to them. Progression means gradually becoming better and better doing the same thing over and over again to try to achieve a goal (achievement, high score, etc).
Now, if they change the rules every 3 months, progress made so far is thrown into the bin. It's like when someone ruins your hard work and you have to start over. And over. Again.
And also makes scores uncomparable to previous scores.
If they want to change drastically the rules how the game should be played, they should do this when new end game content is released. "Here, a fancy new trial for all of you, and we changed around your abilities/classes a bit, so go and figure out how to beat this new content with a fresh mindset/approach, to shake things up a little bit. We also added interesting new mechanics you've not seen before. Etc..."
That would work. That would make the game less repetitive and boring. (Seeing a slightly differently designed group content with reskinned old mechanics, etc., beating them with the same good old builds and rotations is not fun.)
But rolling out a story only DLC not too far from releasing a new "full sized trial" since a long time, while still many groups are progressing towards god slayer, or even just improving their best scores, tackling HM one by one at bosses.... And at the same time screwing all this progression up is a recipe to alienate said player base and demotivate them.
Edited by zsban on September 23, 2019 9:44PM10 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This isn't a balance pass, in fact there hasn't been a balance pass in a long while. It's a complete restructuring into a game whose numbers at least make some meaningful amount of sense.0331
06023 -
SeaUnicorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Someone should explain the meaning of "progression group" to them. Progression means gradually becoming better and better doing the same thing over and over again to try to achieve a goal (achievement, high score, etc).
Now, if they change the rules every 3 months, progress made so far is thrown into the bin. It's like when someone ruins your hard work and you have to start over. And over. Again.
And also makes scores uncomparable to previous scores.
If they want to change drastically the rules how the game should be played, they should do this when new end game content is released. "Here, a fancy new trial for all of you, and we changed around your abilities/classes a bit, so go and figure out how to beat this new content with a fresh mindset/approach, to shake things up a little bit. We also added interesting new mechanics you've not seen before. Etc..."
That would work. That would make the game less repetitive and boring. (Seeing a slightly differently designed group content with reskinned old mechanics, etc., beating them with the same good old builds and rotations is less fun.)
But rolling out a story only DLC not too far from releasing a new "full sized trial" since a long time, while still many groups are progressing towards god slayer, or even just improving their best scores, tackling HM one by one at bosses.... Screwing all this progression up is a recipe to alienate said player base and demotivate them.
My sunspire HM team cleared fire HM a week prior to Scalebreaker, since then we couldn't get pas Lokk HM because half the team left after the patch, we spent so much time re-bulding and recovering, just got the team together got 2 solid weeks to work on Lok HM. Now patch notes for Dragonhold got released - more ppl left. I give up. Our progress was thrown back by 3 months by ZOS's willy nilly "balancing" approach.Edited by SeaUnicorn on September 23, 2019 9:51PM14 -
wedgezSoul ShrivenFully agree, raiding guilds are starting to lose their solid members and their reason is mainly the patch notes, especially 5.2, and nothing else outside of ESO.7
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Tsar_Gekkou✭✭✭✭✭
✭It honestly feels like there isn't enough new blood to replace the good players leaving. Most people are by definition, average. Average doesn't even beat vMoL let alone the harder stuff, and it feels like most people either don't care about improving or just aren't good enough to. All I see on the upper half of the leaderboards are the same people, and if they start leaving, I don't think i'll see a lot of new names taking their places. I wish there were more people who were good so most groups aren't just craglorn struggle buses.Xbox NA healer main
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+3 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA HM | vRG HM |
Flawless Conqueror | Spirit Slayer | Dro-mA'thra Destroyer | Tick-Tock-Tormentor | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Godslayer | Dawnbringer | Planesbreaker |5 -
Ramber✭✭✭✭MAybe instead of waiting for end gamers to fall from the sky try and help recruit and train some newer players that wanna learn. Its very rewarding and doable.0
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LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MAybe instead of waiting for end gamers to fall from the sky try and help recruit and train some newer players that wanna learn. Its very rewarding and doable.
Actually, a lot of guilds recruit newer players who want to learn and improve. It's been this way since forever, and especially after Morrowind, when most guilds started having troubles filling their rosters.
However, nerfs and player exodus are not going to make trial requirements go away because they're set by ZOS, not by us. If you're not happy about trials being too demanding and dps focused, you should blame ZOS. Trial guilds cannot magically change the amount of hp on bosses, for example.
Edit:typosEdited by LadyNalcarya on September 23, 2019 11:53PMDro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU7 -
CE_Nex✭✭✭✭Personally, I don't care much about the DPS nerf. It was a long time coming. Power creep is a thing and it was getting out of hand. And for the really high-end gamers who min-max their dps output, they'll still be able to hit the min-max of this patch with some practice. But the way ZoS has gone and done these changes is what really is killing it for me.
Because it makes it all the harder for people who aren't high level endgamers to get to that next level of doing veteran trials and dungeons and hardmodes.
Relequens out parses nearly every stamina skill for someone with practiced and smooth LA weaving. Lokkestiiz gives a flat 20% damage bonus, and with how easy synergies are to get, it's very easy to get 100% uptimes. How do you get the perfected versions? Through vet trials. But with the dps nerfs, the average person now has a significantly more difficult time hitting the DPS required for these trials.
The Craglorns have a requirement of around 20k, which is fairly easy to get. vMoL is around 30-35k minimum; a bit of work, but not impossible. But vAS+1 and +2? vCR+ 1, 2, and 3? Sunspire? They have a significantly higher level of DPS. Lokkestiiz on vet requires, not only requires good coordination from tanks and DPS, but a sustained and high level of AoE damage. Or else you get Ice atros left over into the next phase and it gets overwhelming for the OT. And ZoS has decided to nerf AoE damage, and increase their cost on average by a whopping 66%.
Let's not even get into Nahviintaas and the Eternal Servant. Just vet alone will be significantly more difficult, never mind the near impossibility of doing 11.4 million in 90 seconds on hardmode.
These changes are widening the skill gap between the player base. High skilled endgamers will still find a way to min-max. We always have. The average player? It will be that much more difficult to cross the threshold of vet trials and vet DLC ones. It's promoting elitism and discouraging players of crossing the threshold into the harder stuff.13 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »MehrunesFlagon wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.
I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).
...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good luck doing godslayer with 30k dps
Didn't know you earned Godslayer in vMoL... oh, wait, that's right, it's because you don't.
If you're trying to earn Godslayer in vMoL, that might be why you're having such a hard time getting it.
We aren't going to be limited to 30k dps.I think he was talking about other trial achievements anyway. Godslayer may need to be changed perhaps. That's on Mike Finn though.
He was, but he was leaping into a discussion on how as a community, we massively overestimate the stress in a DPS check. There isn't a single DPS check in the game that requires more than 50k (which is on the path to Godslayer, BTW.) So, when people are like, "My DPS is ruined," and their still pulling north of 50k, there is nothing for them to do with that much damage.
You think pulling "north of 50k DPS" is sufficient for God Slayer, eh?
You have a lot of experience in vSS HM to back up that statement?
You don't even need experience to see that, it's just basic math. You can see how much health the bosses have and what mechanics they have by watching a youtube vid.
It's honestly mind-boggling how people can be so ignorant.
vSS dps requirements are not a matter of perspective, they are a challenge created by ZOS. If they dont want people to push dps, then why do they keep releasing content that requires high dps?
Oh I know.
I'm just poking the bear.
There are numerous people here of that ilk. Oft-ridiculed in TRE. The notorious "forum warriors" who think that "I've played since beta" is a substitute for skill or real knowledge about the game.
In a number of threads trashing the (horrible, no good, very bad) current PTS patch, there's a handful of people pulling ye olde "durr what do you even need that much DPS for, I'm an end gamer and I'm glad damage is being nerfed." I keep trying to get these people to demonstrate their expertise in the end game: where are the achievements? Why can't I find them on esologs.com or on the leaderboards? Why don't I see them in any raiding Discords?
This whole schtick where people pretend to have some expert knowledge on a topic they demonstrably know absolutely nothing about is baffling to me.
They never respond when challenged, though.
But I mean really the mere act of saying something as blatantly stupid as "there isn't a single DPS check in the game that requires more than 50k (which is on the path to Godslayer, BTW)" is enough evidence for anyone who has a clue to ignore anything further that person has to say.
I'm not sure if it's white knighting or just being contrary for the sake of being contrary, but either way it's a bunch of hogwash.
Just from what I've seen, the overwhelming majority of the people who claim high dps isn't needed are not actually participating in any of the content that requires higher dps. They're running vanilla dungeons, craglorn/normal dificulty trials, and overland content, so their input isn't really valuable in this discussion and they're best to be ignored.
This is sad, really.
It's ok to enjoy all types of content, but I hate how toxic and dismissive nerf defenders are.
Imo being happy about someone losing progress is just petty.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU4 -
FoulSnowpaw✭✭✭The problem is content remains unchanged while tanking and dps get nerfed to oblivion.
A while back base health used to be 20k then down to 15k now currently 10k-11k which is ridiculous.
Healing done is a dumb racial passive for argonians because there's nothing to heal once a player is at max health...
Sustain cut in half since Morrowind and this year cut that by another half by increasing the cost of abilities.
Some people with "achievements" completed the harder content when game was better but the newer people can never hope to obtain it without paying one of those scam skin sellers in zone chat.
Grouping for trials is dead because newer players are booted by end gamers because they have "standards" of which the majority 95% can only dream of reaching, which also explains why TOP end game trials guilds don't ever chat/host vet trials anymore because no one wants to struggle with find people and/or simply farming the trials that's now 500% harder for the same or lesser gear(that got nerfed over the years). Mechanics DO require dps and now that's a rare thing to find and some people even ask for gold or crowns for hire which is ridiculous.Edited by FoulSnowpaw on September 24, 2019 12:26AM8 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.
I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).
...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good luck doing godslayer with 30k dps
Didn't know you earned Godslayer in vMoL... oh, wait, that's right, it's because you don't.
If you're trying to earn Godslayer in vMoL, that might be why you're having such a hard time getting it.
Why do people keep bringing up vMoL and Craglorn trials? It doesn't prove anything, it's old content. In many other mmos old content often becomes obsolete. vMoL and Craglorn are not completely useless at least.
Can we talk about more relevant stuff like vCR and vSS?
In many other MMOs, the level cap increases with each release, rendering old content irrelevant.
In many other MMOs, older content is completely abandoned.
In many other MMOs, gear is bound to character, rather than account.
In many other MMOs, open world PvP is enabled, and you can be ganked by hostile players almost as soon as you start a new character.
In many other MMOs, you're asked to pick from a massive list of severs and can only interact with other players who selected the same one. If you know someone IRL, and they picked a different server, you're SoL for playing with them.
Can we talk about more relevant stuff like ESO, and not what "many other MMOs" do?
In ESO, content isn't rendered irrelevant the instant a new zone hits. The early trials are still very relevant because of IA, VO, Alkosh, and a number of other sets which still see some use.
So, yes, let's stick to the relevant part of the discussion, which is to say, vMoL and Crag are still relevant. And, while we're on that subject, the DPS checks in vAS, vCR, and vHoF aren't nearly as brutal as a lot of people seem to think.
Old content is irrelevant if you've done it too many times.
The PVE content in this game is generally blah. PVP was the really, really good part of the game, almost the successor to Dark Age of Camelot in terms of AvA. They's messed that up though with lag, bugs and whatnot. The first two years though, just amazing, fast, fluid and fun.4 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »It’s almost as if the “endgame” “community” hasn’t yet figured out how to engage these very challenging endgame encounters the way the devs actually designed/intended them and instead obsessively focus on attaining and then “requiring” absurdly high DPS numbers that sidestep that design/intention.
I’m reminded of how, for instance, vMOL HM was beaten way back in the day when 30k DPS was considered godly...but now the “endgame” “community” insists you “can’t” beat that HM with less than 50k (or whatever ridiculously inflated number gets pulled out of someone’s nether regions this week).
...when since the trial was released, nothing has actually changed.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good luck doing godslayer with 30k dps
Didn't know you earned Godslayer in vMoL... oh, wait, that's right, it's because you don't.
If you're trying to earn Godslayer in vMoL, that might be why you're having such a hard time getting it.
Why do people keep bringing up vMoL and Craglorn trials? It doesn't prove anything, it's old content. In many other mmos old content often becomes obsolete. vMoL and Craglorn are not completely useless at least.
Can we talk about more relevant stuff like vCR and vSS?
In many other MMOs, the level cap increases with each release, rendering old content irrelevant.
In many other MMOs, older content is completely abandoned.
In many other MMOs, gear is bound to character, rather than account.
In many other MMOs, open world PvP is enabled, and you can be ganked by hostile players almost as soon as you start a new character.
In many other MMOs, you're asked to pick from a massive list of severs and can only interact with other players who selected the same one. If you know someone IRL, and they picked a different server, you're SoL for playing with them.
Can we talk about more relevant stuff like ESO, and not what "many other MMOs" do?
In ESO, content isn't rendered irrelevant the instant a new zone hits. The early trials are still very relevant because of IA, VO, Alkosh, and a number of other sets which still see some use.
So, yes, let's stick to the relevant part of the discussion, which is to say, vMoL and Crag are still relevant. And, while we're on that subject, the DPS checks in vAS, vCR, and vHoF aren't nearly as brutal as a lot of people seem to think.
Old content is irrelevant if you've done it too many times.
The PVE content in this game is generally blah. PVP was the really, really good part of the game, almost the successor to Dark Age of Camelot in terms of AvA. They's messed that up though with lag, bugs and whatnot. The first two years though, just amazing, fast, fluid and fun.
Might want to tell that to all the people who went back to HRC for their Advancing gear.2 -
Kesstryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭General direction, or better to say lack of direction where combat is going during Scalebreaker and Dragonhold destroyed end-game pve population.
It's increasingly hard to find trial groups and guolds lately due to the fact that players just left the game and do not want to play anymore.
Scalebreaker healer and geiund dots nerfs were padded by single target dot buffs, so we were able to keep up the dps in trial groups. Once 5.2 patch notes were released I can't fill a trial roster in the last active trial guild I had.
Is that what developers want the game to be? Drive away players who were loyal to the game for years?
I honestly don't care if the salty veterans outright leave the game. Some of them are really nice but most?
They're all like grumpy old farts that have a problem with everything, all cynical doomsayers that refuse to adjust and man up to the changes. All that while also being hypocrites for they're the ones I heard the most calling for new refreshing changes to keep the game interesting.
Now they all cry and try to treathen ZOS that they'll leave just because they won't be able to hit ridiculous DPS numbers anymore that shouldn't have existed in the first place.
Let them go, they will be replaced by new players eventually.
I've been around for many years myself and I love the changes cause it forces me to switch up, experiment, find something new and re-learn the game that was already getting boring. If I can do it why not them?
Ah but I'm not a salty veteran. I'm a mid tier casual who is sick of going backwards once I get my meta sorted out and then we are nerf hammered so that what little progression we were gaining, we lose and can't keep progressing. We are the ones that are suffering the most.HEARTHLIGHT - A guild for housing enthusiasts! Contact @Kesstryl in-game to join.14 -
Gahmerdohn✭✭✭This is what happens when something is broken for sooo long and instead of fixing it you just hide it and pretend is it all fine.
ESO combat system is, I think, the only basic system that hasn't been touched at its core since the start. Players have complained about it since the very start, then we stopped and simply got used to it so many people didn't even start the game because of this. <<It is a good game but this clunky combat system, I just can't...>>
Sometimes during a short period of time "that build" or "this other build" was fun to play and efficient at the same time but most of the time it was just "playable".
There are some good things:
- No cooldowns
- kinda fast
- A lot of possibilities...well wait, not really actually.
I've been pleased to see some people in this thread mention that all players are valuable because we all support the game so the game can carry on to make content for each one of us. This is such a beautiful thing to see and it is the truth. I absolutely agree with that.
BUT
In an MMO or any fantasy RPG some things are essential such as archetypes: Archer, warrior, thief, Dark magician and so one...
So many people have been desperately asking to do something about the available playstyles so they can enjoy the game too.
What has been the answer of most of the players of the community?
"Bow is already viable for quests, so do that instead" , "2h/DW? not in my guild", "Big warrior in Heavy armor as DD? Joke?" "don't even talk about hybrids you heretic" (sound silly now right? but at the beginning, people were excited about creating their own very unique character like in every TES game.) (One of the reasons why a huge part of TES community don't even play ESO)
Looking closely people rejecting all of that were not wrong, for most of the existence of this game, all those playstyles that are part of Fantasy games including TES games were just crap or really niche like heavy armor in PVP (as DD). So naturally, they started to ask ZOS.
Remember that one of the big things about ESO was the sexy and fantasist idea to really do what you want, meaning experiencing the playstyle that you want provided that you know how to build your character correctly following basic rules such as Weapon damage for Stamina.
What was the answer of ZOS?
- Stamina became playable only after 1 year or more, only with the NB by the way.
- Tanking with Sorc? or healing as DK or any other combinations out of the current meta? 2 to 4 years to make them really viable in vet endgame.
- 2H in PvE? only sorc during Morrowind and the rest only after summerset....4 YEARS!!!!
- Bow? only with wrathstone and the Tzogvin set... 5 YEARS.
Why? because without touching the combat system it is impossible to do anything without breaking 90% of the game.
So the Devs and the community took the easy path: let's just work on the 4 fundamentals way of playing in ESO that actually seems to work: Tank, heal, Magicka, stamina (reduced only to the DW/Bow, you can still see it in the tool helping you build your character when you start it has only those ways) the rest we'll see when we have time.
The game became narrowed, encounters, sets everything have been designed to fit in this organic meta created by the design of the game itself. Players have just done what they naturally do, exploiting the game design.
Now ESO is one of the games that have the least diversity in ENDGAME everything feels the same and play the same that's why it's so easy to have for example 16 damage dealers and jump between them with just a few hours of learning sometimes minutes...that is why all of them feels meaningless and we create character as fast as we abandon them for months (not everybody I know).
This was to expect: If you hide a disease with artificial solutions at some point you will fall dead...
All the systems: Combat system, design of bosses, Item sets, CP, etc interact with each other in such a way that now with so much different things to take into consideration it's soo hard to do anything without breaking the whole game...
I hope they have some creativity left to get out of it...Cause this: we wait for this or that before doing anything...I don't know if most of the players will wait till then.Edited by Gahmerdohn on September 24, 2019 2:24AM10