Combat changes destroyed end-game population.

SeaUnicorn · September 2019

General direction, or better to say lack of direction where combat is going during Scalebreaker and Dragonhold destroyed end-game PVE population.
It's increasingly hard to find trial groups and guilds lately due to the fact that players just left the game and do not want to play it anymore.
Scalebreaker healer and ground DOTs nerfs were padded by a single target dot buffs, so we were able to keep up the DPS in trial groups. But it still cost us a good chunk of players.
Once 5.2 patch notes were released I can't fill a trial roster in the last active trial guild I had because people just gave up on the game.
Is that what developers want the game to be? Drive away players who were loyal to the game for years?

p00tx · September 2019

While I don't disagree that this patch makes combat look really uninteresting and unappealing and could very likely drive people away, do keep in mind GoW5 and Borderlands3 dropped, and a large section of the population is currently balls deep in one or both games. I know it's frustrating, and we're dealing with the same issues, but you can do one of two things:

1) Be patient and wait for them to complete the main campaign in those games. They'll be back. Even the most ardent of patch-haters usually comes back eventually, no matter how badly the devs screw things up (again).

2) Do what we've been doing. Give promising newer players (who are hitting the appropriate dps numbers) a chance to get some reps in end game content. We tend to let our population stagnate in end game because we assume only those of us currently running the content can complete it. We're notoriously hesitant to bring in new people. Now is the time to get over that bad habit and expand our end game player base a bit. We can use all the support we can get, since it looks like a large part of the ESO gaming population is pretty keen to tell us to kick rocks in light of the destructiveness of the upcoming patch.

SeaUnicorn · September 2019

We can't even fill vAA plunder with no requirements at all, it's pretty bad. And we used to be able to fill 2 rosters at the same time. I personally was running trainings 1-2 times a week. I've noone to train now

Nomadic_Mind · September 2019

p00tx wrote: »

While I don't disagree that this patch makes combat look really uninteresting and unappealing and could very likely drive people away, do keep in mind GoW5 and Borderlands3 dropped, and a large section of the population is currently balls deep in one or both games. I know it's frustrating, and we're dealing with the same issues, but you can do one of two things:

1) Be patient and wait for them to complete the main campaign in those games. They'll be back. Even the most ardent of patch-haters usually comes back eventually, no matter how badly the devs screw things up (again).

2) Do what we've been doing. Give promising newer players (who are hitting the appropriate dps numbers) a chance to get some reps in end game content. We tend to let our population stagnate in end game because we assume only those of us currently running the content can complete it. We're notoriously hesitant to bring in new people. Now is the time to get over that bad habit and expand our end game player base a bit. We can use all the support we can get, since it looks like a large part of the ESO gaming population is pretty keen to tell us to kick rocks in light of the destructiveness of the upcoming patch.

How do you propose new players hit the "appropriate dps numbers" when their skills have been gutted because the sets they don't have access to are so strong?

Nemesis7884 · September 2019

p00tx wrote: »

While I don't disagree that this patch makes combat look really uninteresting and unappealing and could very likely drive people away, do keep in mind GoW5 and Borderlands3 dropped, and a large section of the population is currently balls deep in one or both games. I know it's frustrating, and we're dealing with the same issues, but you can do one of two things:

1) Be patient and wait for them to complete the main campaign in those games. They'll be back. Even the most ardent of patch-haters usually comes back eventually, no matter how badly the devs screw things up (again).

2) Do what we've been doing. Give promising newer players (who are hitting the appropriate dps numbers) a chance to get some reps in end game content. We tend to let our population stagnate in end game because we assume only those of us currently running the content can complete it. We're notoriously hesitant to bring in new people. Now is the time to get over that bad habit and expand our end game player base a bit. We can use all the support we can get, since it looks like a large part of the ESO gaming population is pretty keen to tell us to kick rocks in light of the destructiveness of the upcoming patch.

true but when dragonhold drops, outer world drops as well so thats gonna be a rough one

SeaUnicorn · September 2019

During Elsweyr Sekiro came out, but people would still sign up and log in for trials. This is definitely an effect of bad patch, not other games being released.

Lylith · September 2019

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

While I don't disagree that this patch makes combat look really uninteresting and unappealing and could very likely drive people away, do keep in mind GoW5 and Borderlands3 dropped, and a large section of the population is currently balls deep in one or both games. I know it's frustrating, and we're dealing with the same issues, but you can do one of two things:

1) Be patient and wait for them to complete the main campaign in those games. They'll be back. Even the most ardent of patch-haters usually comes back eventually, no matter how badly the devs screw things up (again).

2) Do what we've been doing. Give promising newer players (who are hitting the appropriate dps numbers) a chance to get some reps in end game content. We tend to let our population stagnate in end game because we assume only those of us currently running the content can complete it. We're notoriously hesitant to bring in new people. Now is the time to get over that bad habit and expand our end game player base a bit. We can use all the support we can get, since it looks like a large part of the ESO gaming population is pretty keen to tell us to kick rocks in light of the destructiveness of the upcoming patch.

true but when dragonhold drops, outer world drops as well so thats gonna be a rough one

for those who choose to do business with epic games.

easy pass, for me.

Shantu · September 2019

Elite groups will adjust and still do their HM content. Unless there is some serious reconsideration of the effects on the vast majority of the players who enjoy combat, it is the marginal players in vet dungeon and trial progression that will be hit the hardest with this patch...and they FAR outnumber elitists. I'm a member in a couple of such groups. We work hard to beat vMoL, vSS, vAS...we never even consider HM. Nobody comes close to hitting 100k on a dummy. But we work hard and have fun. But both of those groups are pretty much done if this patch hits the ground like it is. ZOS should keep in mind that by lowering the DSP ceiling, they are also lowering the floor...and more end game content will now simply be out of reach to "average" players.

Like the roller coaster ride with DOT's, I just don't get the feeling the far reaching negative impact of this patch is very well thought out.

TBois · September 2019

slofwnd wrote: »

During Elsweyr Sekiro came out, but people would still sign up and log in for trials. This is definitely an effect of bad patch, not other games being released.

But classic wow came out. That is actually the same genre as eso and hugely popular.

Calm_Fury · September 2019

Morrowind sustains nerfs almost killed end game population already.

It was barely recovering in the last few months, but unless the next iterations of PTS revert a lot of the chagnes, I don't think there will be many more end game players let.

Some of us will always be here, but we are already seeing several guilds disbanding and merging to try to stay alive and still can't fill rosters. I don't expect this to improve unless they fix the patch direction before live.

SeaUnicorn · September 2019

My main trial guild, where I was an officer, had do fold into another, because half the guild quit playing after scalebreaker. Now the guild that we merged into is also dying...

BalticBlues · September 2019

This happens if ZOS expects people to learn a new game every 3 months...

Czekoludek · September 2019

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

While I don't disagree that this patch makes combat look really uninteresting and unappealing and could very likely drive people away, do keep in mind GoW5 and Borderlands3 dropped, and a large section of the population is currently balls deep in one or both games. I know it's frustrating, and we're dealing with the same issues, but you can do one of two things:

1) Be patient and wait for them to complete the main campaign in those games. They'll be back. Even the most ardent of patch-haters usually comes back eventually, no matter how badly the devs screw things up (again).

2) Do what we've been doing. Give promising newer players (who are hitting the appropriate dps numbers) a chance to get some reps in end game content. We tend to let our population stagnate in end game because we assume only those of us currently running the content can complete it. We're notoriously hesitant to bring in new people. Now is the time to get over that bad habit and expand our end game player base a bit. We can use all the support we can get, since it looks like a large part of the ESO gaming population is pretty keen to tell us to kick rocks in light of the destructiveness of the upcoming patch.

true but when dragonhold drops, outer world drops as well so thats gonna be a rough one

Not really, Zeni devs made it easy decision

Epicasballs · September 2019

WoW Classic. It's not a good time to be flundering about as an MMO developer when the Crowned King of MMOs has returned to massage everyones nostalgia glands. On top of of flundering about ZOS is also not releasing content for end game PVEers to come back to this patch. No relevant content and horrible changes while the market has other options for players to get their MMO fix... you know exactly what you're getting with WoW Classic. It's the perfect storm.

Ozby · September 2019

Yep having same issues here with our Oceanic guild people have gone to wow classic etc , I know this because i can see what they are playing through our discord channel. Quite frankly looking at latest patch notes I'm starting to feel the same way and may end up looking at another game entirely now.

Casdha · September 2019

Personally I left the game because it is summer time. The fact that I don't try to do the guild thing anymore is because I don't have the time, as @BalticBlues said, to learn a new game every 3 months.

They still get my money, they just don't get me 24/7 - 365. As long as the story content is worth doing, I'll be back, eventually.

The only way I would do Group content on a regular basis is if I had real life friends (not Facebook friends) who played this game.

FYI, they don't exist

p00tx · September 2019

Nomadic_Mind wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

While I don't disagree that this patch makes combat look really uninteresting and unappealing and could very likely drive people away, do keep in mind GoW5 and Borderlands3 dropped, and a large section of the population is currently balls deep in one or both games. I know it's frustrating, and we're dealing with the same issues, but you can do one of two things:

1) Be patient and wait for them to complete the main campaign in those games. They'll be back. Even the most ardent of patch-haters usually comes back eventually, no matter how badly the devs screw things up (again).

2) Do what we've been doing. Give promising newer players (who are hitting the appropriate dps numbers) a chance to get some reps in end game content. We tend to let our population stagnate in end game because we assume only those of us currently running the content can complete it. We're notoriously hesitant to bring in new people. Now is the time to get over that bad habit and expand our end game player base a bit. We can use all the support we can get, since it looks like a large part of the ESO gaming population is pretty keen to tell us to kick rocks in light of the destructiveness of the upcoming patch.

How do you propose new players hit the "appropriate dps numbers" when their skills have been gutted because the sets they don't have access to are so strong?

i'm not entirely sure I fully understand your question, but your skills haven't been gutted yet and are still incredibly strong, and many overland or base dungeon sets can be used to pull some pretty impressive dps numbers. Mother's Sorrow, an easy to acquire overland set, is BiS right now for mag. Paired with Burning Spell Weave (City of Ash drop) or even Julianos (a craftable set), you can still have competitive dps (just not the "best"). Leviathan (Crypt of Hearts drop), Hundings (Craftable), and Deadly Strike (PvP) are all pretty easy to get and require no special content clears.

Appropriate just means enough dps to not need to be carried by the rest of the team, dependent on the content. It doesn't mean everyone in a standard vMoL run needs to be rocking 100k dps in Perfected Lokkes.

Tannus15 · September 2019

My progression guild has plenty of people who are struggling to hit 70k on the 21m dummy on live.
They will be lucky to hit 60k if the update goes out in this state.
This update will destroy our guild.

JAwtunes · September 2019

Maybe they are hoping experienced players are skilled enough adapt

GrimTheReaper45 · September 2019

I do think the frequent combat changes as a whole are driving players away. I dont really know anyone that playes eso anymore. Most of my friends have quit in the last year or so because of the frequency of combat changes.

That being said I think the game is at the point now where it would be worse to stop them honestly. They need to put the fun back in now. They should have never done the skill audit in the first place but now that they have they need to do some changes to make combat suck less.

p00tx · September 2019

JAwtunes wrote: »

Maybe they are hoping experienced players are skilled enough adapt

And they are, but that doesn't change the content or what's realistically needed to clear it. You think people are going to be clearing Godslayer or timed dlc trial/dungeon achievements with 1/3rd less dps? As it is, we can't clear the timed achievement in vSS on console because we don't have access to add-ons like dressing room (which should be part of base game already). The difficulty in the newer content is all based on our CURRENT ability to clear it effectively in this meta. I get that most of the game is satisfied with just running vanilla/basegame content, and there is nothing wrong with that, but why have the more difficult content if no one can realistically expect to clear it? ESO might as well become an overpriced phone app for bored housewives whose gaming experience stops at Candy Crush.

MartiniDaniels · September 2019

Yes.

I don't know how it is in all guilds, but in my guilds ton of people vanished after those leaked notes of scalebreaker, and now even those who remained are completely disoriented and even ongoing raids are messy with crazy mix of players of different level.

And of course nobody wants to play, I mean what reason to improve your PVE rotation or PVP builds while all this will be entirely, absolutely disintegrated within a month.

Nemesis7884 · September 2019

Lylith wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

While I don't disagree that this patch makes combat look really uninteresting and unappealing and could very likely drive people away, do keep in mind GoW5 and Borderlands3 dropped, and a large section of the population is currently balls deep in one or both games. I know it's frustrating, and we're dealing with the same issues, but you can do one of two things:

1) Be patient and wait for them to complete the main campaign in those games. They'll be back. Even the most ardent of patch-haters usually comes back eventually, no matter how badly the devs screw things up (again).

2) Do what we've been doing. Give promising newer players (who are hitting the appropriate dps numbers) a chance to get some reps in end game content. We tend to let our population stagnate in end game because we assume only those of us currently running the content can complete it. We're notoriously hesitant to bring in new people. Now is the time to get over that bad habit and expand our end game player base a bit. We can use all the support we can get, since it looks like a large part of the ESO gaming population is pretty keen to tell us to kick rocks in light of the destructiveness of the upcoming patch.

true but when dragonhold drops, outer world drops as well so thats gonna be a rough one

for those who choose to do business with epic games.

easy pass, for me.

bethesda doesnt exactly sit on a high horse as they have their own *** launcher as well and have imo become the worst publisher besides EA

SeaUnicorn · September 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Yes.

I don't know how it is in all guilds, but in my guilds ton of people vanished after those leaked notes of scalebreaker, and now even those who remained are completely disoriented and even ongoing raids are messy with crazy mix of players of different level.

And of course nobody wants to play, I mean what reason to improve your PVE rotation or PVP builds while all this will be entirely, absolutely disintegrated within a month.

Exactly. I have one member of my core who literally just mastered his all dot rotation. They were very resistant to change. I feel so bad they need to relearn all over again

idk · September 2019

Zos is aware of the shrinking population of competitive end game players. They have to be. I remember when Morrowind dropped and we had the HA meta. Some players left because it was boring. Again when vAS dropped we had some raiders bored with the boring mechanics due to a lazy fight design.

It is occurring on both PC servers and I expect it is happening on consoles though that is harder to measure since a lot of newer PC raiders have come from consoles over the years.

ccfeeling · September 2019

Before change , we can't even complete the DLC vet trial in small guild , we run the trial 10 - 11 always .

After change , we would focus 4 man dungeon or change to the new game .

We would like to play something we enjoy , that's why we play game .

XIIICaesar · September 2019

Same here. In my trial guild they'd already started bringing in people from other trial guilds as well to fill groups. 1st the prog runs for vet trials stopped, then we couldn't even fill Crag plunder runs. Now we haven't even run trials for few wks now.

jcm2606 · September 2019

The past 3-4 weeks, I've only been logging in to do mount training and inventory management, with the occasional hour or two playing (occasional being like 2-3 days across the whole 3-4 weeks). I've only been doing this, because I just did not find Scalebreaker fun as a patch. DoT meta in PvE is just boring, and is infuriating in PvP when idiots at max range can DoT you up and completely deny you healing because you're taking so much damage. That, combined with the constantly deteriorating performance, has left me basically getting frustrated every time I play, so I just didn't.

As it currently stands, since reading the patch notes, I haven't even logged in at all, over the past like 4 days. I haven't logged in, because I just don't see a reason to. This upcoming patch is profoundly *** my characters, to the point where I'd have to completely rework my PvE character into something that is still just not fun to play, and bench my PvP character since DK is now a DoT class without any good DoT's.

I'm just done with Zenimax making the same exact *** mistakes patch after patch, year after year, and just not fixing any of them, despite the community screaming at them to do so. Literally a year ago, this thread popped up during the Murkmire PTS in response to the blanket nerf of mobility, pointing out that rather than blindly flailing the nerf bat around gutting anything it touches, they should use a nerf scalpel pointed specifically at what the community, the reps, and maybe Zenimax themselves deem problems.

I asked a class rep whether Zenimax had seen this, and apparently they did, and yet here we are in the Dragonhold PTS, where the same *** happens with a different mechanic. Zenimax introduces 2 blatantly overpowered DoT's (Entropy, Soul Trap) by more than doubling their damage, but rather than nerfing just those 2, they gut DoT's across the board by 50+%. It is so bad that DK's Volatile Armor now deals more damage than DK's Claw, which was once one of the strongest single target DoT's in the game. It is so bad that back barring a Maelstrom destro staff on a stamina build offers higher DPS than any other option, simply because of the boost to light attacks.

At this point, it's a complete joke. I'm watching FENGRUSH stream the PTS as I speak, and literally everything has left me speechless. This is not the game I once loved, this is not the game I once enjoyed, this is not the game that ESO should be. Zenimax, do better, you and I both know you can.

Major_Lag · September 2019

jcm2606 wrote: »

The past 3-4 weeks, I've only been logging in to do mount training and inventory management, with the occasional hour or two playing (occasional being like 2-3 days across the whole 3-4 weeks). I've only been doing this, because I just did not find Scalebreaker fun as a patch.

Same here.
That, and levelling some of my neglected alts in overland content. This about wraps it up.

My farming time is quite limited, and we've already hit the point where I can't even realistically expect to be able to farm new gear fast enough to keep up with the ridiculous "new patch = new game" changes.

At best, I'd be done farming gear and practicing with the new build just in time for the next patch to completely invalidate all of that invested time and effort. So why even bother?

Nemesis7884 · September 2019

XIIICaesar wrote: »

Same here. In my trial guild they'd already started bringing in people from other trial guilds as well to fill groups. 1st the prog runs for vet trials stopped, then we couldn't even fill Crag plunder runs. Now we haven't even run trials for few wks now.

i did notice that it has become increasingly difficult to even find groups for the most common run normal trials even during rush hours...

starkerealm · September 2019

Nomadic_Mind wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

While I don't disagree that this patch makes combat look really uninteresting and unappealing and could very likely drive people away, do keep in mind GoW5 and Borderlands3 dropped, and a large section of the population is currently balls deep in one or both games. I know it's frustrating, and we're dealing with the same issues, but you can do one of two things:

1) Be patient and wait for them to complete the main campaign in those games. They'll be back. Even the most ardent of patch-haters usually comes back eventually, no matter how badly the devs screw things up (again).

2) Do what we've been doing. Give promising newer players (who are hitting the appropriate dps numbers) a chance to get some reps in end game content. We tend to let our population stagnate in end game because we assume only those of us currently running the content can complete it. We're notoriously hesitant to bring in new people. Now is the time to get over that bad habit and expand our end game player base a bit. We can use all the support we can get, since it looks like a large part of the ESO gaming population is pretty keen to tell us to kick rocks in light of the destructiveness of the upcoming patch.

How do you propose new players hit the "appropriate dps numbers" when their skills have been gutted because the sets they don't have access to are so strong?

By calibrating those numbers to what they'll actually need to clear content, and not the neverending epeen contest that DPS checks devolved into.

The DPS check at the end of vAA is less than 100k group. If you're crying about how you can't break 50k, you're literally crying that you can't clear vAA with only 2 DPS. 2! When you should have 8.

Also when you can't do things like first pad burns in vMoL... so what? I mean, really, so what? That doesn't matter. Can you clear the content? Yes. But, god forbid you need to actually teach people how to run.

Appropriate DPS means enough to clear the content you're running, not simply setting a number in low orbit and then crying when you're nerfed because you were roflstomping everything in your path..