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Millz✭✭✭
Actual "real world" damage matters infinitely more than what someone might see on the tooltip of some random build. In no-CP BGs, I routinely see Dizzying Swings for >= 6k damage, which other spammable abilities (excepting Jabs/Sweeps) only reach under specific circumstances, like when buffed by the overpowered Onslaught ultimate.master_vanargand wrote: »Dizzying Swing was nerfed because it was too strong.
ZOS did a good job.
its tool tip is only slightly more than actual spammable skills and in some cases the same, the problem was not the skill but the knockback animation which they addressed in the pts notes. IF they would quit doing all these drastic changes and listened to feedback and do small logical tweaks maybe they wouldnt have wasted the last few years going back and forth
Force Pulse/Crushing Shock is capable of doing some decent damage, but it in no way compares to Dizzying Swing. There are reasons DSwing is everywhere in BGs on live, and the Destruction Staff "equivalent" is actually quite rare.
Instant cast spammables are affected by a 1 second global cooldown, so there isn't really more of a wait between DSwing spam than there is between Force Pulse/Crushing Shock spam. It's just that the former is *vastly* more powerful than the latter.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Where where all of these people when frags were nerfed and DK whip? Both not as good as dizzy swing on live.
Hmm...
ZOS should have nerfed it a long time ago with both of those skills above, the only reason why they didn't was because no one used it. Now that people are and its "working", its become clear how strong it is. The fact that your build is destroyed by a single addition or removal of a skill is testament to how OP it really is.
Bollocks. Some builds have to rely on non-class dmg skills like Dizzy because, you know, they didn't had or still don't have reasonable powered class skills.
If they nerf Whip some more, what would you think? Why not *** with Frags a little more now, or Curse, I mean it shouldn't break your build and if it does, it was "too OP", right?
You're obviously salty about previous nerfs and now want other classes to go through the same.
Some skills are simply bread and butter. If you nerf them into uselessness youre build will eventually become a problem because at some point there is nothing to fall back on.
So because the stun is removed its no longer a spammable? Tell me more.
I think a spammable would require it being able to cast without anytime in between
I stated before that yes dizzying swing hits for 1-2k more than other damage abilites and it should, because the damage is at the end of the animation where others are at the beginning. So yes the time between two skills is essential the same except you can weave 2 skills in for the time it takes 1 dizzying swing to go off. Also youre trying to compare range vs melee which is a whole other box of worms and deals more with actual open world combat. So lets not get into that. I'm talking strictly about the skill dizzying swing and why the changes were uncalled for. The changed the animation on knockbacks which was needed and what was actually seemingly making dizzying swing OP. As I've stated about 3 times in this thread I think a good balance would be to just revert it back to a 1 sec cast time WITH the new changes to knockbackBrenhji
PC NA - 400 cp
(Retired) XBOX NA - 1006 cp
---Say no to standardization---0 -
Millz✭✭✭
Sorry I didn't even read everything you said but if youre upset about magdk not having an execute then I get it every class should have an option to run an execute thats reasonable. But this thread is about dizzying swing. And Dizzying swing has a cast time which in turn has easy counter play to it. You mention to throw in a turn evil if they are blocking and rolling then that defeats the purpose of dizzying swing so now its just a skill that does dmg with a cast time. At that point youre better off running something else. No one just sits there and spams dizzying swing and if someone lets you do that then thats their own l2p issue. We could talk about combat in another thread and what not but I feel like youre getting off topic and wanting to vent (which i get). But try and keep in perspective that this is specifically about dizzying swing as a skill that has a cast time and as stands with PTS changes is useless because like you said for a stun i will run turn evil and for a spammable well now who knows what ill run. Because like dizzying swing is already counterable the heavy attack that i must follow up with will also be very counterable.
Backing off whip comparison now? No, no, no, no, no. Dizzy has a cast time, however, you are not snared like other cast time skills and its not interruptible. Let's start there.
Also, its almost as if you guys believe snares and roots don't exist in the game, plus you can't build for speed.
Also, just so you know, I ain't ever mad over changes. Surprised, yes. Mad? Nope. If they choose to keep dizzy like it is on live because of all the people complaining, let them. But they are not about to come up in the PTS forums and pretend that skill is not powerful on live and/or takes skill to use then throw out the same tired "L2P" line.
When its convenient we should look at a skill in isolation?
And FYI every skill in the game is counterable, that you now only consider dizzy swing too counterable to slot now that its stun is lost only proves the point that it was OP, and specifically because it stunned and did high damage.
YOU WERE THE ONE WHO MADE THAT COMPARISON. I didn't even bring it up until you did. Guess what they literally added a set that gives mag 20% movement speed base that will stack on top of expedition on top of race against time snare removal. Talk about speed.... is it powerful? Yes it should be. Like I've said in the thread about 5 times now. They should put the cast time back to 1.0s with the new change to knockback animation. Was it as a skill that op to remove the stun? No the cause of complaints was the mixture of onslaught (which is actually OP) and knockback animation being so stupid that you couldn't even counter if you had the slightest bit of lag or to much incoming damage.
I'm not even trying to take shots at anything else or even you but everyone keeps bringing up comparisons. It's a unique skill that really can only be compared to other cast time skills. Trying to compare it to other skills (range, non cast time, or aoe) just isnt going to work.
I've only brought up other cast time skills like crystal shards, snipe, solar flare.Brenhji
PC NA - 400 cp
(Retired) XBOX NA - 1006 cp
---Say no to standardization---2 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭What if, Dizzying Swing will have the standard, spammable skills, tooltip but without any casting time. Dizzy + heavy attack will be a very fluid combo.
They can change the Blackrose Prison set to bring back the high dmg with Stuns and knocks back but with 1 sec casting time.
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Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Sorry I didn't even read everything you said but if youre upset about magdk not having an execute then I get it every class should have an option to run an execute thats reasonable. But this thread is about dizzying swing. And Dizzying swing has a cast time which in turn has easy counter play to it. You mention to throw in a turn evil if they are blocking and rolling then that defeats the purpose of dizzying swing so now its just a skill that does dmg with a cast time. At that point youre better off running something else. No one just sits there and spams dizzying swing and if someone lets you do that then thats their own l2p issue. We could talk about combat in another thread and what not but I feel like youre getting off topic and wanting to vent (which i get). But try and keep in perspective that this is specifically about dizzying swing as a skill that has a cast time and as stands with PTS changes is useless because like you said for a stun i will run turn evil and for a spammable well now who knows what ill run. Because like dizzying swing is already counterable the heavy attack that i must follow up with will also be very counterable.
Backing off whip comparison now? No, no, no, no, no. Dizzy has a cast time, however, you are not snared like other cast time skills and its not interruptible. Let's start there.
Also, its almost as if you guys believe snares and roots don't exist in the game, plus you can't build for speed.
Also, just so you know, I ain't ever mad over changes. Surprised, yes. Mad? Nope. If they choose to keep dizzy like it is on live because of all the people complaining, let them. But they are not about to come up in the PTS forums and pretend that skill is not powerful on live and/or takes skill to use then throw out the same tired "L2P" line.
When its convenient we should look at a skill in isolation?
And FYI every skill in the game is counterable, that you now only consider dizzy swing too counterable to slot now that its stun is lost only proves the point that it was OP, and specifically because it stunned and did high damage.
YOU WERE THE ONE WHO MADE THAT COMPARISON. I didn't even bring it up until you did. Guess what they literally added a set that gives mag 20% movement speed base that will stack on top of expedition on top of race against time snare removal. Talk about speed.... is it powerful? Yes it should be. Like I've said in the thread about 5 times now. They should put the cast time back to 1.0s with the new change to knockback animation. Was it as a skill that op to remove the stun? No the cause of complaints was the mixture of onslaught (which is actually OP) and knockback animation being so stupid that you couldn't even counter if you had the slightest bit of lag or to much incoming damage.
I'm not even trying to take shots at anything else or even you but everyone keeps bringing up comparisons. It's a unique skill that really can only be compared to other cast time skills. Trying to compare it to other skills (range, non cast time, or aoe) just isnt going to work.
I've only brought up other cast time skills like crystal shards, snipe, solar flare.
"Unique," ah my third favorite word on the forums, besides "skillful" and "identity."
You honestly are trying to push the uninterruptable cast time on the skill as a downside, in exchange for damage and a stun. That's a nice sell, but I won't buy it. Maybe someone at ZOS will, despite their intent to standarize and remove "unique" things for balance.2 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The damage isn't 1-2 more, though. If it was I'd be getting hit by other spammables for 4-5k (which only happens with Jabs and Sweeps). To the extent that I even see spammables besides DSwing and Jabs/Sweeps in BGs now, they'll generally top out at maybe ~3.5k if there's no Onslaught involved.
Actual "real world" damage matters infinitely more than what someone might see on the tooltip of some random build. In no-CP BGs, I routinely see Dizzying Swings for >= 6k damage, which other spammable abilities (excepting Jabs/Sweeps) only reach under specific circumstances, like when buffed by the overpowered Onslaught ultimate.master_vanargand wrote: »Dizzying Swing was nerfed because it was too strong.
ZOS did a good job.
its tool tip is only slightly more than actual spammable skills and in some cases the same, the problem was not the skill but the knockback animation which they addressed in the pts notes. IF they would quit doing all these drastic changes and listened to feedback and do small logical tweaks maybe they wouldnt have wasted the last few years going back and forth
Force Pulse/Crushing Shock is capable of doing some decent damage, but it in no way compares to Dizzying Swing. There are reasons DSwing is everywhere in BGs on live, and the Destruction Staff "equivalent" is actually quite rare.
Instant cast spammables are affected by a 1 second global cooldown, so there isn't really more of a wait between DSwing spam than there is between Force Pulse/Crushing Shock spam. It's just that the former is *vastly* more powerful than the latter.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Where where all of these people when frags were nerfed and DK whip? Both not as good as dizzy swing on live.
Hmm...
ZOS should have nerfed it a long time ago with both of those skills above, the only reason why they didn't was because no one used it. Now that people are and its "working", its become clear how strong it is. The fact that your build is destroyed by a single addition or removal of a skill is testament to how OP it really is.
Bollocks. Some builds have to rely on non-class dmg skills like Dizzy because, you know, they didn't had or still don't have reasonable powered class skills.
If they nerf Whip some more, what would you think? Why not *** with Frags a little more now, or Curse, I mean it shouldn't break your build and if it does, it was "too OP", right?
You're obviously salty about previous nerfs and now want other classes to go through the same.
Some skills are simply bread and butter. If you nerf them into uselessness youre build will eventually become a problem because at some point there is nothing to fall back on.
So because the stun is removed its no longer a spammable? Tell me more.
I think a spammable would require it being able to cast without anytime in between
I stated before that yes dizzying swing hits for 1-2k more than other damage abilites and it should, because the damage is at the end of the animation where others are at the beginning. So yes the time between two skills is essential the same except you can weave 2 skills in for the time it takes 1 dizzying swing to go off. Also youre trying to compare range vs melee which is a whole other box of worms and deals more with actual open world combat. So lets not get into that. I'm talking strictly about the skill dizzying swing and why the changes were uncalled for. The changed the animation on knockbacks which was needed and what was actually seemingly making dizzying swing OP. As I've stated about 3 times in this thread I think a good balance would be to just revert it back to a 1 sec cast time WITH the new changes to knockback
And no, you cannot weave 2 instant cast skills in the time it takes to fire off one Dizzying Swing. That's the whole point I was trying to get across by mentioning the global cooldown. Sure, Dizzying Swing's damage takes place at the end of the 1-second-per-ability "rule," rather than at the beginning, but that's true for other things as well (ever tried to use the Cliff Racer on a Magicka Warden?) But those other abilities don't hit nearly as hard as DSwing does, and never had a CC attached.
Frankly, after statements ZOS made during the timeframe of Shalks/Crystal Frag losing their stun, it's surprising that it took this long to give Dizzying Swing the same treatment.1 -
Millz✭✭✭Lughlongarm wrote: »What if, Dizzying Swing will have the standard, spammable skills, tooltip but without any casting time. Dizzy + heavy attack will be a very fluid combo.
They can change the Blackrose Prison set to bring back the high dmg with Stuns and knocks back but with 1 sec casting time.
They wouldn't but that would make more sense right?
Sorry I didn't even read everything you said but if youre upset about magdk not having an execute then I get it every class should have an option to run an execute thats reasonable. But this thread is about dizzying swing. And Dizzying swing has a cast time which in turn has easy counter play to it. You mention to throw in a turn evil if they are blocking and rolling then that defeats the purpose of dizzying swing so now its just a skill that does dmg with a cast time. At that point youre better off running something else. No one just sits there and spams dizzying swing and if someone lets you do that then thats their own l2p issue. We could talk about combat in another thread and what not but I feel like youre getting off topic and wanting to vent (which i get). But try and keep in perspective that this is specifically about dizzying swing as a skill that has a cast time and as stands with PTS changes is useless because like you said for a stun i will run turn evil and for a spammable well now who knows what ill run. Because like dizzying swing is already counterable the heavy attack that i must follow up with will also be very counterable.
Backing off whip comparison now? No, no, no, no, no. Dizzy has a cast time, however, you are not snared like other cast time skills and its not interruptible. Let's start there.
Also, its almost as if you guys believe snares and roots don't exist in the game, plus you can't build for speed.
Also, just so you know, I ain't ever mad over changes. Surprised, yes. Mad? Nope. If they choose to keep dizzy like it is on live because of all the people complaining, let them. But they are not about to come up in the PTS forums and pretend that skill is not powerful on live and/or takes skill to use then throw out the same tired "L2P" line.
When its convenient we should look at a skill in isolation?
And FYI every skill in the game is counterable, that you now only consider dizzy swing too counterable to slot now that its stun is lost only proves the point that it was OP, and specifically because it stunned and did high damage.
YOU WERE THE ONE WHO MADE THAT COMPARISON. I didn't even bring it up until you did. Guess what they literally added a set that gives mag 20% movement speed base that will stack on top of expedition on top of race against time snare removal. Talk about speed.... is it powerful? Yes it should be. Like I've said in the thread about 5 times now. They should put the cast time back to 1.0s with the new change to knockback animation. Was it as a skill that op to remove the stun? No the cause of complaints was the mixture of onslaught (which is actually OP) and knockback animation being so stupid that you couldn't even counter if you had the slightest bit of lag or to much incoming damage.
I'm not even trying to take shots at anything else or even you but everyone keeps bringing up comparisons. It's a unique skill that really can only be compared to other cast time skills. Trying to compare it to other skills (range, non cast time, or aoe) just isnt going to work.
I've only brought up other cast time skills like crystal shards, snipe, solar flare.
"Unique," ah my third favorite word on the forums, besides "skillful" and "identity."
You honestly are trying to push the uninterruptable cast time on the skill as a downside, in exchange for damage and a stun. That's a nice sell, but I won't buy it. Maybe someone at ZOS will, despite their intent to standarize and remove "unique" things for balance.
Make it interruptable to then lmao i don't care people roll dodge or jump through me all the time just let them bash it too then i get free stun immunity.
Ok so we got it now right? Make cast time back to 1.0 seconds, make interruptable, leave stun and leave damage. Sounds good to me. And it is unique you can't even deny it imagine your precious whip having a 0.8 second cast time, with its stun back would you like that? Or would you disagreee with that?Brenhji
PC NA - 400 cp
(Retired) XBOX NA - 1006 cp
---Say no to standardization---1 -
Millz✭✭✭
The damage isn't 1-2 more, though. If it was I'd be getting hit by other spammables for 4-5k (which only happens with Jabs and Sweeps). To the extent that I even see spammables besides DSwing and Jabs/Sweeps in BGs now, they'll generally top out at maybe ~3.5k if there's no Onslaught involved.
Actual "real world" damage matters infinitely more than what someone might see on the tooltip of some random build. In no-CP BGs, I routinely see Dizzying Swings for >= 6k damage, which other spammable abilities (excepting Jabs/Sweeps) only reach under specific circumstances, like when buffed by the overpowered Onslaught ultimate.master_vanargand wrote: »Dizzying Swing was nerfed because it was too strong.
ZOS did a good job.
its tool tip is only slightly more than actual spammable skills and in some cases the same, the problem was not the skill but the knockback animation which they addressed in the pts notes. IF they would quit doing all these drastic changes and listened to feedback and do small logical tweaks maybe they wouldnt have wasted the last few years going back and forth
Force Pulse/Crushing Shock is capable of doing some decent damage, but it in no way compares to Dizzying Swing. There are reasons DSwing is everywhere in BGs on live, and the Destruction Staff "equivalent" is actually quite rare.
Instant cast spammables are affected by a 1 second global cooldown, so there isn't really more of a wait between DSwing spam than there is between Force Pulse/Crushing Shock spam. It's just that the former is *vastly* more powerful than the latter.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Where where all of these people when frags were nerfed and DK whip? Both not as good as dizzy swing on live.
Hmm...
ZOS should have nerfed it a long time ago with both of those skills above, the only reason why they didn't was because no one used it. Now that people are and its "working", its become clear how strong it is. The fact that your build is destroyed by a single addition or removal of a skill is testament to how OP it really is.
Bollocks. Some builds have to rely on non-class dmg skills like Dizzy because, you know, they didn't had or still don't have reasonable powered class skills.
If they nerf Whip some more, what would you think? Why not *** with Frags a little more now, or Curse, I mean it shouldn't break your build and if it does, it was "too OP", right?
You're obviously salty about previous nerfs and now want other classes to go through the same.
Some skills are simply bread and butter. If you nerf them into uselessness youre build will eventually become a problem because at some point there is nothing to fall back on.
So because the stun is removed its no longer a spammable? Tell me more.
I think a spammable would require it being able to cast without anytime in between
I stated before that yes dizzying swing hits for 1-2k more than other damage abilites and it should, because the damage is at the end of the animation where others are at the beginning. So yes the time between two skills is essential the same except you can weave 2 skills in for the time it takes 1 dizzying swing to go off. Also youre trying to compare range vs melee which is a whole other box of worms and deals more with actual open world combat. So lets not get into that. I'm talking strictly about the skill dizzying swing and why the changes were uncalled for. The changed the animation on knockbacks which was needed and what was actually seemingly making dizzying swing OP. As I've stated about 3 times in this thread I think a good balance would be to just revert it back to a 1 sec cast time WITH the new changes to knockback
And no, you cannot weave 2 instant cast skills in the time it takes to fire off one Dizzying Swing. That's the whole point I was trying to get across by mentioning the global cooldown. Sure, Dizzying Swing's damage takes place at the end of the 1-second-per-ability "rule," rather than at the beginning, but that's true for other things as well (ever tried to use the Cliff Racer on a Magicka Warden?) But those other abilities don't hit nearly as hard as DSwing does, and never had a CC attached.
Frankly, after statements ZOS made during the timeframe of Shalks/Crystal Frag losing their stun, it's surprising that it took this long to give Dizzying Swing the same treatment.
Yeah you cannot weave 2 of the same skill but if i wanted to surprise attack followed by an execute that would happen in the same time as 1 dizzying swing, or say surprise attack with bow proc, or a crushing shock with a proc frag. I do agree though that warden animations have always been drawn out. I can't speak on necro don't have elsywer. If they wanted to get rid of the stun they could have added something useful instead. Snipe has defile or fracture they could have added that into dizzying swing (one or the other).Brenhji
PC NA - 400 cp
(Retired) XBOX NA - 1006 cp
---Say no to standardization---0 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lughlongarm wrote: »What if, Dizzying Swing will have the standard, spammable skills, tooltip but without any casting time. Dizzy + heavy attack will be a very fluid combo.
They can change the Blackrose Prison set to bring back the high dmg with Stuns and knocks back but with 1 sec casting time.
So move the power out of the skill into a set?
...Lughlongarm wrote: »What if, Dizzying Swing will have the standard, spammable skills, tooltip but without any casting time. Dizzy + heavy attack will be a very fluid combo.
They can change the Blackrose Prison set to bring back the high dmg with Stuns and knocks back but with 1 sec casting time.
They wouldn't but that would make more sense right?
Sorry I didn't even read everything you said but if youre upset about magdk not having an execute then I get it every class should have an option to run an execute thats reasonable. But this thread is about dizzying swing. And Dizzying swing has a cast time which in turn has easy counter play to it. You mention to throw in a turn evil if they are blocking and rolling then that defeats the purpose of dizzying swing so now its just a skill that does dmg with a cast time. At that point youre better off running something else. No one just sits there and spams dizzying swing and if someone lets you do that then thats their own l2p issue. We could talk about combat in another thread and what not but I feel like youre getting off topic and wanting to vent (which i get). But try and keep in perspective that this is specifically about dizzying swing as a skill that has a cast time and as stands with PTS changes is useless because like you said for a stun i will run turn evil and for a spammable well now who knows what ill run. Because like dizzying swing is already counterable the heavy attack that i must follow up with will also be very counterable.
Backing off whip comparison now? No, no, no, no, no. Dizzy has a cast time, however, you are not snared like other cast time skills and its not interruptible. Let's start there.
Also, its almost as if you guys believe snares and roots don't exist in the game, plus you can't build for speed.
Also, just so you know, I ain't ever mad over changes. Surprised, yes. Mad? Nope. If they choose to keep dizzy like it is on live because of all the people complaining, let them. But they are not about to come up in the PTS forums and pretend that skill is not powerful on live and/or takes skill to use then throw out the same tired "L2P" line.
When its convenient we should look at a skill in isolation?
And FYI every skill in the game is counterable, that you now only consider dizzy swing too counterable to slot now that its stun is lost only proves the point that it was OP, and specifically because it stunned and did high damage.
YOU WERE THE ONE WHO MADE THAT COMPARISON. I didn't even bring it up until you did. Guess what they literally added a set that gives mag 20% movement speed base that will stack on top of expedition on top of race against time snare removal. Talk about speed.... is it powerful? Yes it should be. Like I've said in the thread about 5 times now. They should put the cast time back to 1.0s with the new change to knockback animation. Was it as a skill that op to remove the stun? No the cause of complaints was the mixture of onslaught (which is actually OP) and knockback animation being so stupid that you couldn't even counter if you had the slightest bit of lag or to much incoming damage.
I'm not even trying to take shots at anything else or even you but everyone keeps bringing up comparisons. It's a unique skill that really can only be compared to other cast time skills. Trying to compare it to other skills (range, non cast time, or aoe) just isnt going to work.
I've only brought up other cast time skills like crystal shards, snipe, solar flare.
"Unique," ah my third favorite word on the forums, besides "skillful" and "identity."
You honestly are trying to push the uninterruptable cast time on the skill as a downside, in exchange for damage and a stun. That's a nice sell, but I won't buy it. Maybe someone at ZOS will, despite their intent to standarize and remove "unique" things for balance.
Make it interruptable to then lmao i don't care people roll dodge or jump through me all the time just let them bash it too then i get free stun immunity.
Ok so we got it now right? Make cast time back to 1.0 seconds, make interruptable, leave stun and leave damage. Sounds good to me. And it is unique you can't even deny it imagine your precious whip having a 0.8 second cast time, with its stun back would you like that? Or would you disagreee with that?
I don't even slot whip unless I'm zerg surfing, even then its a hard sell over frost wall, inhale, or turn evil. But nice try
You and I both know all the stam players out there will not stand for dizzy swing being 1 sec and interruptible. I can already see a comment complaining about combat being "slow" or "dumbed down" 0 -
Millz✭✭✭Lughlongarm wrote: »What if, Dizzying Swing will have the standard, spammable skills, tooltip but without any casting time. Dizzy + heavy attack will be a very fluid combo.
They can change the Blackrose Prison set to bring back the high dmg with Stuns and knocks back but with 1 sec casting time.
So move the power out of the skill into a set?
...Lughlongarm wrote: »What if, Dizzying Swing will have the standard, spammable skills, tooltip but without any casting time. Dizzy + heavy attack will be a very fluid combo.
They can change the Blackrose Prison set to bring back the high dmg with Stuns and knocks back but with 1 sec casting time.
They wouldn't but that would make more sense right?
Sorry I didn't even read everything you said but if youre upset about magdk not having an execute then I get it every class should have an option to run an execute thats reasonable. But this thread is about dizzying swing. And Dizzying swing has a cast time which in turn has easy counter play to it. You mention to throw in a turn evil if they are blocking and rolling then that defeats the purpose of dizzying swing so now its just a skill that does dmg with a cast time. At that point youre better off running something else. No one just sits there and spams dizzying swing and if someone lets you do that then thats their own l2p issue. We could talk about combat in another thread and what not but I feel like youre getting off topic and wanting to vent (which i get). But try and keep in perspective that this is specifically about dizzying swing as a skill that has a cast time and as stands with PTS changes is useless because like you said for a stun i will run turn evil and for a spammable well now who knows what ill run. Because like dizzying swing is already counterable the heavy attack that i must follow up with will also be very counterable.
Backing off whip comparison now? No, no, no, no, no. Dizzy has a cast time, however, you are not snared like other cast time skills and its not interruptible. Let's start there.
Also, its almost as if you guys believe snares and roots don't exist in the game, plus you can't build for speed.
Also, just so you know, I ain't ever mad over changes. Surprised, yes. Mad? Nope. If they choose to keep dizzy like it is on live because of all the people complaining, let them. But they are not about to come up in the PTS forums and pretend that skill is not powerful on live and/or takes skill to use then throw out the same tired "L2P" line.
When its convenient we should look at a skill in isolation?
And FYI every skill in the game is counterable, that you now only consider dizzy swing too counterable to slot now that its stun is lost only proves the point that it was OP, and specifically because it stunned and did high damage.
YOU WERE THE ONE WHO MADE THAT COMPARISON. I didn't even bring it up until you did. Guess what they literally added a set that gives mag 20% movement speed base that will stack on top of expedition on top of race against time snare removal. Talk about speed.... is it powerful? Yes it should be. Like I've said in the thread about 5 times now. They should put the cast time back to 1.0s with the new change to knockback animation. Was it as a skill that op to remove the stun? No the cause of complaints was the mixture of onslaught (which is actually OP) and knockback animation being so stupid that you couldn't even counter if you had the slightest bit of lag or to much incoming damage.
I'm not even trying to take shots at anything else or even you but everyone keeps bringing up comparisons. It's a unique skill that really can only be compared to other cast time skills. Trying to compare it to other skills (range, non cast time, or aoe) just isnt going to work.
I've only brought up other cast time skills like crystal shards, snipe, solar flare.
"Unique," ah my third favorite word on the forums, besides "skillful" and "identity."
You honestly are trying to push the uninterruptable cast time on the skill as a downside, in exchange for damage and a stun. That's a nice sell, but I won't buy it. Maybe someone at ZOS will, despite their intent to standarize and remove "unique" things for balance.
Make it interruptable to then lmao i don't care people roll dodge or jump through me all the time just let them bash it too then i get free stun immunity.
Ok so we got it now right? Make cast time back to 1.0 seconds, make interruptable, leave stun and leave damage. Sounds good to me. And it is unique you can't even deny it imagine your precious whip having a 0.8 second cast time, with its stun back would you like that? Or would you disagreee with that?
I don't even slot whip unless I'm zerg surfing, even then its a hard sell over frost wall, inhale, or turn evil. But nice try
You and I both know all the stam players out there will not stand for dizzy swing being 1 sec and interruptible. I can already see a comment complaining about combat being "slow" or "dumbed down"
Why not? Power lash hits like a truck.
And I agree that a lot of stam players are snowflakes about balance. It happens on both ends. But I've been using d swing since it was wrecking blow and did both empower and stun (talk about OP). It should be interruptible, cast time is honestly fine but if they made it back to 1.0 sec i wouldnt mind. But I do not agree with your opinion that it should be snared when casting. The damage I think should stay how it is on live but if they wanted to keep the 12-14% decrease i wouldnt even mind that either. It's the fact that it has a cast time and should have a second benefit, off balance is not what they should have done.
Remove the stun but give something at least halfway decent back, fracture, root, even a snare i guess or even one of these stupid new "Do X then get bonus damage" things they keep implementing would have been better.Brenhji
PC NA - 400 cp
(Retired) XBOX NA - 1006 cp
---Say no to standardization---0 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Why not? Power lash hits like a truck.
That's top secret, but the mainstream reason is because power last got a 3 second cooldown for its damage and the animation is for it has a slight delay. I play mag DK in a special way and I hate slow downs!
Plus it is sometimes hybrid in PvP and I use dw/2h...
2 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
First scenario:
The damage isn't 1-2 more, though. If it was I'd be getting hit by other spammables for 4-5k (which only happens with Jabs and Sweeps). To the extent that I even see spammables besides DSwing and Jabs/Sweeps in BGs now, they'll generally top out at maybe ~3.5k if there's no Onslaught involved.
Actual "real world" damage matters infinitely more than what someone might see on the tooltip of some random build. In no-CP BGs, I routinely see Dizzying Swings for >= 6k damage, which other spammable abilities (excepting Jabs/Sweeps) only reach under specific circumstances, like when buffed by the overpowered Onslaught ultimate.master_vanargand wrote: »Dizzying Swing was nerfed because it was too strong.
ZOS did a good job.
its tool tip is only slightly more than actual spammable skills and in some cases the same, the problem was not the skill but the knockback animation which they addressed in the pts notes. IF they would quit doing all these drastic changes and listened to feedback and do small logical tweaks maybe they wouldnt have wasted the last few years going back and forth
Force Pulse/Crushing Shock is capable of doing some decent damage, but it in no way compares to Dizzying Swing. There are reasons DSwing is everywhere in BGs on live, and the Destruction Staff "equivalent" is actually quite rare.
Instant cast spammables are affected by a 1 second global cooldown, so there isn't really more of a wait between DSwing spam than there is between Force Pulse/Crushing Shock spam. It's just that the former is *vastly* more powerful than the latter.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Where where all of these people when frags were nerfed and DK whip? Both not as good as dizzy swing on live.
Hmm...
ZOS should have nerfed it a long time ago with both of those skills above, the only reason why they didn't was because no one used it. Now that people are and its "working", its become clear how strong it is. The fact that your build is destroyed by a single addition or removal of a skill is testament to how OP it really is.
Bollocks. Some builds have to rely on non-class dmg skills like Dizzy because, you know, they didn't had or still don't have reasonable powered class skills.
If they nerf Whip some more, what would you think? Why not *** with Frags a little more now, or Curse, I mean it shouldn't break your build and if it does, it was "too OP", right?
You're obviously salty about previous nerfs and now want other classes to go through the same.
Some skills are simply bread and butter. If you nerf them into uselessness youre build will eventually become a problem because at some point there is nothing to fall back on.
So because the stun is removed its no longer a spammable? Tell me more.
I think a spammable would require it being able to cast without anytime in between
I stated before that yes dizzying swing hits for 1-2k more than other damage abilites and it should, because the damage is at the end of the animation where others are at the beginning. So yes the time between two skills is essential the same except you can weave 2 skills in for the time it takes 1 dizzying swing to go off. Also youre trying to compare range vs melee which is a whole other box of worms and deals more with actual open world combat. So lets not get into that. I'm talking strictly about the skill dizzying swing and why the changes were uncalled for. The changed the animation on knockbacks which was needed and what was actually seemingly making dizzying swing OP. As I've stated about 3 times in this thread I think a good balance would be to just revert it back to a 1 sec cast time WITH the new changes to knockback
And no, you cannot weave 2 instant cast skills in the time it takes to fire off one Dizzying Swing. That's the whole point I was trying to get across by mentioning the global cooldown. Sure, Dizzying Swing's damage takes place at the end of the 1-second-per-ability "rule," rather than at the beginning, but that's true for other things as well (ever tried to use the Cliff Racer on a Magicka Warden?) But those other abilities don't hit nearly as hard as DSwing does, and never had a CC attached.
Frankly, after statements ZOS made during the timeframe of Shalks/Crystal Frag losing their stun, it's surprising that it took this long to give Dizzying Swing the same treatment.
Yeah you cannot weave 2 of the same skill but if i wanted to surprise attack followed by an execute that would happen in the same time as 1 dizzying swing, or say surprise attack with bow proc, or a crushing shock with a proc frag. I do agree though that warden animations have always been drawn out. I can't speak on necro don't have elsywer. If they wanted to get rid of the stun they could have added something useful instead. Snipe has defile or fracture they could have added that into dizzying swing (one or the other).
Second 1: Activate Surprise Attack, deal instant damage, can't use another ability until Second 2.
Second 2: Activate Killer's Blade, deal instant damage, can't use another ability until Second 3.
Second scenario:
Second 1: Activate Dizzying Swing, deal damage 0.8 seconds later, can't use another ability until Second 2.
Second 2: Activate Dizzying Swing, deal damage 0.8 seconds later, can't use another ability until Second 3.
And if we change that second Dizzying Swing to a Killer's Blade, to match the first scenario, we actually get a delay (setting lag and human error aside for a moment) of 0.2 seconds between the two hits landing, rather than 1 second as in the first example.1 -
MentalxHammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lughlongarm wrote: »What if, Dizzying Swing will have the standard, spammable skills, tooltip but without any casting time. Dizzy + heavy attack will be a very fluid combo.
That's actually not the worst idea
0 -
Millz✭✭✭
First scenario:
The damage isn't 1-2 more, though. If it was I'd be getting hit by other spammables for 4-5k (which only happens with Jabs and Sweeps). To the extent that I even see spammables besides DSwing and Jabs/Sweeps in BGs now, they'll generally top out at maybe ~3.5k if there's no Onslaught involved.
Actual "real world" damage matters infinitely more than what someone might see on the tooltip of some random build. In no-CP BGs, I routinely see Dizzying Swings for >= 6k damage, which other spammable abilities (excepting Jabs/Sweeps) only reach under specific circumstances, like when buffed by the overpowered Onslaught ultimate.master_vanargand wrote: »Dizzying Swing was nerfed because it was too strong.
ZOS did a good job.
its tool tip is only slightly more than actual spammable skills and in some cases the same, the problem was not the skill but the knockback animation which they addressed in the pts notes. IF they would quit doing all these drastic changes and listened to feedback and do small logical tweaks maybe they wouldnt have wasted the last few years going back and forth
Force Pulse/Crushing Shock is capable of doing some decent damage, but it in no way compares to Dizzying Swing. There are reasons DSwing is everywhere in BGs on live, and the Destruction Staff "equivalent" is actually quite rare.
Instant cast spammables are affected by a 1 second global cooldown, so there isn't really more of a wait between DSwing spam than there is between Force Pulse/Crushing Shock spam. It's just that the former is *vastly* more powerful than the latter.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Where where all of these people when frags were nerfed and DK whip? Both not as good as dizzy swing on live.
Hmm...
ZOS should have nerfed it a long time ago with both of those skills above, the only reason why they didn't was because no one used it. Now that people are and its "working", its become clear how strong it is. The fact that your build is destroyed by a single addition or removal of a skill is testament to how OP it really is.
Bollocks. Some builds have to rely on non-class dmg skills like Dizzy because, you know, they didn't had or still don't have reasonable powered class skills.
If they nerf Whip some more, what would you think? Why not *** with Frags a little more now, or Curse, I mean it shouldn't break your build and if it does, it was "too OP", right?
You're obviously salty about previous nerfs and now want other classes to go through the same.
Some skills are simply bread and butter. If you nerf them into uselessness youre build will eventually become a problem because at some point there is nothing to fall back on.
So because the stun is removed its no longer a spammable? Tell me more.
I think a spammable would require it being able to cast without anytime in between
I stated before that yes dizzying swing hits for 1-2k more than other damage abilites and it should, because the damage is at the end of the animation where others are at the beginning. So yes the time between two skills is essential the same except you can weave 2 skills in for the time it takes 1 dizzying swing to go off. Also youre trying to compare range vs melee which is a whole other box of worms and deals more with actual open world combat. So lets not get into that. I'm talking strictly about the skill dizzying swing and why the changes were uncalled for. The changed the animation on knockbacks which was needed and what was actually seemingly making dizzying swing OP. As I've stated about 3 times in this thread I think a good balance would be to just revert it back to a 1 sec cast time WITH the new changes to knockback
And no, you cannot weave 2 instant cast skills in the time it takes to fire off one Dizzying Swing. That's the whole point I was trying to get across by mentioning the global cooldown. Sure, Dizzying Swing's damage takes place at the end of the 1-second-per-ability "rule," rather than at the beginning, but that's true for other things as well (ever tried to use the Cliff Racer on a Magicka Warden?) But those other abilities don't hit nearly as hard as DSwing does, and never had a CC attached.
Frankly, after statements ZOS made during the timeframe of Shalks/Crystal Frag losing their stun, it's surprising that it took this long to give Dizzying Swing the same treatment.
Yeah you cannot weave 2 of the same skill but if i wanted to surprise attack followed by an execute that would happen in the same time as 1 dizzying swing, or say surprise attack with bow proc, or a crushing shock with a proc frag. I do agree though that warden animations have always been drawn out. I can't speak on necro don't have elsywer. If they wanted to get rid of the stun they could have added something useful instead. Snipe has defile or fracture they could have added that into dizzying swing (one or the other).
Second 1: Activate Surprise Attack, deal instant damage, can't use another ability until Second 2.
Second 2: Activate Killer's Blade, deal instant damage, can't use another ability until Second 3.
Second scenario:
Second 1: Activate Dizzying Swing, deal damage 0.8 seconds later, can't use another ability until Second 2.
Second 2: Activate Dizzying Swing, deal damage 0.8 seconds later, can't use another ability until Second 3.
And if we change that second Dizzying Swing to a Killer's Blade, to match the first scenario, we actually get a delay (setting lag and human error aside for a moment) of 0.2 seconds between the two hits landing, rather than 1 second as in the first example.
Hmm ok yeah thanks for putting it on paper. Yeah if you combo d swing with another skill it would be a quicker burst but longer to the actual dmg phase.
Either way telegraphing a skill should be rewarded to what extent? Well thats the balance I still think cast time should go back to 1sec, dmg left alone and if they want to remove the stun replace it with something useful not off balance.Brenhji
PC NA - 400 cp
(Retired) XBOX NA - 1006 cp
---Say no to standardization---0 -
Millz✭✭✭Or leave the 0.8 cast time take the percentage damage off and stun off and replace the secondary effect with something like fractureBrenhji
PC NA - 400 cp
(Retired) XBOX NA - 1006 cp
---Say no to standardization---0 -
KingExecration✭✭✭✭With the damage nerf to dizzying paired with the stun loss it’s such a hard skill to slot. Just remove the channel and put it in line with other spammables. I’m gonna go ahead and start getting psijiic to keep some viable spammable for my storc.
Rethinking my previous complaints ele weapon with new armaments, maybe it won’t be a complete dumpster fire and it’ll synergies a little.0 -
Trian94✭✭✭✭This skill doesn't need a nerf. It's a high risk high reward skill in its nature. Things that make dizzying look overpowered are
1. onslaught
2. the broken knockback stun which cant be cc broken in time
3. the strength of dots which compliments every direct spammable attack*
*since it complements the effectiveness of any spammable attack of course it's going to make a high damage ability with a stun look overpowered.
DIZZY DOESN'T NEED A NERF. But even so if it has to be nerfed then leave the dmg as it is and give it the off balance or nerf the damage and keep the stun.Edited by Trian94 on September 17, 2019 8:32PMPC EU
Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn1 -
Abyssmol✭✭✭✭✭This skill doesn't need a nerf. It's a high risk high reward skill.."
Why I keep seeing this in the forum. This skill has a tool tip of a meteor with a stun - an ult with a stun that you can spam. High risk because you cant spam from far? Which skill is not a high risk? Have you hear of a gap closer! Is whip a high risk - should it get a stun or how about sweeps should it get a stun?
Compare this skill to other skills with a stun; the damage is ridiculous... I'm all for giving magicka and stamina a dizzy Swing... high risk high reward give me a break! Tell that to a magicka templar locked in in a 1 sec channel with sweeps... I think that is high rick right0 -
Trian94✭✭✭✭This skill doesn't need a nerf. It's a high risk high reward skill.."
Why I keep seeing this in the forum. This skill has a tool tip of a meteor with a stun - an ult with a stun that you can spam. High risk because you cant spam from far? Which skill is not a high risk? Have you hear of a gap closer! Is whip a high risk - should it get a stun or how about sweeps should it get a stun?
Compare this skill to other skills with a stun; the damage is ridiculous... I'm all for giving magicka and stamina a dizzy Swing... high risk high reward give me a break! Tell that to a magicka templar locked in in a 1 sec channel with sweeps... I think that is high rick right
Do you even know what you're talking about? I explained perfectly why it's high risk and high reward. It has a cast time that leaves you open and is melee range. Enough said.PC EU
Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn0 -
Abyssmol✭✭✭✭✭This skill doesn't need a nerf. It's a high risk high reward skill.."
Why I keep seeing this in the forum. This skill has a tool tip of a meteor with a stun - an ult with a stun that you can spam. High risk because you cant spam from far? Which skill is not a high risk? Have you hear of a gap closer! Is whip a high risk - should it get a stun or how about sweeps should it get a stun?
Compare this skill to other skills with a stun; the damage is ridiculous... I'm all for giving magicka and stamina a dizzy Swing... high risk high reward give me a break! Tell that to a magicka templar locked in in a 1 sec channel with sweeps... I think that is high rick right
Do you even know what you're talking about? I explained perfectly why it's high risk and high reward. It has a cast time that leaves you open and is melee range. Enough said.
Read it again. Templar sweeps enough said.0 -
Red_Feather✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It would be cool if Dizzying Swing was 2 skills. After you use the uppercut swing the icon flips to a new skill for a brief second that performs and downward smash stun. That way the stun is telegraphed plenty, but at least the option is still there.1 -
Trian94✭✭✭✭This skill doesn't need a nerf. It's a high risk high reward skill.."
Why I keep seeing this in the forum. This skill has a tool tip of a meteor with a stun - an ult with a stun that you can spam. High risk because you cant spam from far? Which skill is not a high risk? Have you hear of a gap closer! Is whip a high risk - should it get a stun or how about sweeps should it get a stun?
Compare this skill to other skills with a stun; the damage is ridiculous... I'm all for giving magicka and stamina a dizzy Swing... high risk high reward give me a break! Tell that to a magicka templar locked in in a 1 sec channel with sweeps... I think that is high rick right
Do you even know what you're talking about? I explained perfectly why it's high risk and high reward. It has a cast time that leaves you open and is melee range. Enough said.
Read it again. Templar sweeps enough said.
Puncturing/Jabs actually does more damage than dizzy if you count the burning light procs it also snares. Too bad that ZOS gave everyone major evasion. Let's nerf everything the average player considers op cause he can't counter them. Also Onslaught into jabs is deadly combo. NERF JABS ASAP. That's literally what happened to dizzy, it wasnt op on its own. As i explained it was the dots and onslaught that made it op along with the way knockback is broken for a while now.Edited by Trian94 on September 20, 2019 1:00AMPC EU
Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dizzy Swing should have slightly lower damage than PTS but also CC. Wrecking blow should have the same damage as on PTS but provide off balance. See, was that so hard?Edited by Vapirko on September 20, 2019 1:39AM1 -
Millz✭✭✭Dizzy Swing should have slightly lower damage than PTS but also CC. Wrecking blow should have the same damage as on PTS but provide off balance. See, wasn’t that so hard?
I've come up with a fix all solution I posted it in the combat & mechanics main section I'd like your input if you have time its kind of wordy. I probably didn't get all my points across clearly either lolEdited by Millz on September 20, 2019 1:23AMBrenhji
PC NA - 400 cp
(Retired) XBOX NA - 1006 cp
---Say no to standardization---0 -
maddiniiLuna✭✭✭✭You can hate me, but the changes are great. It was just blatantly overpowered in pvp. You can't see *** with all the glitter flying around, you get hit from one swing and you instantly dead (okay 1.5 seconds after). Love it. Finally join a fight without getting one shot out of nowhere.
There is times when there is so much CC in cyrodiil that you do nothing but dodge and break free for 5 minutes because of the swing, until a Templar comes and just destroys you with the 100% uptime bubble stun.1 -
Abyssmol✭✭✭✭✭This skill doesn't need a nerf. It's a high risk high reward skill.."
Why I keep seeing this in the forum. This skill has a tool tip of a meteor with a stun - an ult with a stun that you can spam. High risk because you cant spam from far? Which skill is not a high risk? Have you hear of a gap closer! Is whip a high risk - should it get a stun or how about sweeps should it get a stun?
Compare this skill to other skills with a stun; the damage is ridiculous... I'm all for giving magicka and stamina a dizzy Swing... high risk high reward give me a break! Tell that to a magicka templar locked in in a 1 sec channel with sweeps... I think that is high rick right
Do you even know what you're talking about? I explained perfectly why it's high risk and high reward. It has a cast time that leaves you open and is melee range. Enough said.
Read it again. Templar sweeps enough said.
Puncturing/Jabs actually does more damage than dizzy if you count the burning light procs it also snares. Too bad that ZOS gave everyone major evasion. Let's nerf everything the average player considers op cause he can't counter them. Also Onslaught into jabs is deadly combo. NERF JABS ASAP. That's literally what happened to dizzy, it wasnt op on its own. As i explained it was the dots and onslaught that made it op along with the way knockback is broken for a while now.
No, jabs does not does more damage than dizzy at once. Jabs does the damage over 1 sec span and not all hits land. On the other hand Dizzy does all the damage at once with a knockback and hard cc. Before you break and get back up you have at least 1 more dizzy damage on you. Look it's fine if ZOS keeps Dizzy the way it is as long as all classes magicka and Stamina get the same damage and hard CC on one skill. Imagine a templar with a hard CC on Jabs. Who needs a snare on a hard hitting ability when you can get a hard CC.0