When C frag was nerfed ZOS said they wanted to move away from high damage abilities with a cc, Its strange that wrecking blow avoided either a nerf to damage or the loss of the cc earlier, half the abilities in the fighters guild line are a cc for those complaining about no replacement

Kadoin wrote: »

Where where all of these people when frags were nerfed and DK whip? Both not as good as dizzy swing on live.

Hmm...

ZOS should have nerfed it a long time ago with both of those skills above, the only reason why they didn't was because no one used it. Now that people are and its "working", its become clear how strong it is. The fact that your build is destroyed by a single addition or removal of a skill is testament to how OP it really is.

Bollocks. Some builds have to rely on non-class dmg skills like Dizzy because, you know, they didn't had or still don't have reasonable powered class skills.
If they nerf Whip some more, what would you think? Why not *** with Frags a little more now, or Curse, I mean it shouldn't break your build and if it does, it was "too OP", right?
You're obviously salty about previous nerfs and now want other classes to go through the same.

Some skills are simply bread and butter. If you nerf them into uselessness youre build will eventually become a problem because at some point there is nothing to fall back on.

Fawn4287 wrote: »

When C frag was nerfed ZOS said they wanted to move away from high damage abilities with a cc, Its strange that wrecking blow avoided either a nerf to damage or the loss of the cc earlier, half the abilities in the fighters guild line are a cc for those complaining about no replacement

That's a whole other topic but I will touch on it briefly and try and related into the d swing change.

So when they got rid of the stun on Crystal Fragments they did so because like you said they wanted to move away from high damage abilities with stuns. I did not agree with this change and mentioned that they should have reworked how the proc chance/cause was because weaving on sorc is very fluid so the proc was up most of the time.

Now to relate it to dizzying swing using my above statement. Dizzying swing is melee so there is greater risk in using the skill than crystal frags. Crystal frags has a travel time so it can be dodged or prepped for. Dizzying swing before last patch (1 sec cast time) had such a high risk to use and still does but for this high risk there should be reward ie good damage and a stun. I think there should be MORE skills like this in the game that require some thinking and awareness to execute rather than just pressing buttons. They said they nerfed the damage in the PTS notes to bring it in line with DoTs but they are two different kinds of damage. DoTs are "undodgeable" once they hit so you have to mitigate or heal through them. This same logic can be applied to dizzying swing and it seems they did understand that the knockback animation was buggy and FIXED it to add counter play to knock backs. But now only 2 skills in the game to my knowledge knock back which is magnum shot (draining shot lost its stun) and javelin.

Back to crystal blast and dizzying swing, they moved the stun to crystal blast and left the cast time which is dumb for a ranged ability but using that model dizzying swing should not have been touched. The knockback animation was what was causing the dsynchs because they dropped the cast time to 0.8 secs from 1.0 sec.

Kadoin wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

Where where all of these people when frags were nerfed and DK whip? Both not as good as dizzy swing on live.

Hmm...

ZOS should have nerfed it a long time ago with both of those skills above, the only reason why they didn't was because no one used it. Now that people are and its "working", its become clear how strong it is. The fact that your build is destroyed by a single addition or removal of a skill is testament to how OP it really is.

Bollocks. Some builds have to rely on non-class dmg skills like Dizzy because, you know, they didn't had or still don't have reasonable powered class skills.
If they nerf Whip some more, what would you think? Why not *** with Frags a little more now, or Curse, I mean it shouldn't break your build and if it does, it was "too OP", right?
You're obviously salty about previous nerfs and now want other classes to go through the same.

Some skills are simply bread and butter. If you nerf them into uselessness youre build will eventually become a problem because at some point there is nothing to fall back on.

So because the stun is removed its no longer a spammable? Tell me more.

You can sitll spam it, you can also spam hardcasted Frags or Blast but at some point it doesn't make sense. Off balance is easily archieveable via a simple roll dodge in CP. And the nerf to damage (again!) hurts.

The missing stun also makes the dizzy-onslaught combo a lot more easier to avoid than it's already is. And yes, everyone know about the off-balance stun. It still prolonges the window to react.

Kadoin wrote: »

Millz wrote: »

Back to crystal blast and dizzying swing, they moved the stun to crystal blast and left the cast time which is dumb for a ranged ability but using that model dizzying swing should not have been touched. The knockback animation was what was causing the dsynchs because they dropped the cast time to 0.8 secs from 1.0 sec.

Call me when I can use crushing shock or venom arrow on dizzy swing. Call me when major evasion bash applies to it. Oh wait...

You don't need to interrupt it, you can simply walk through the dude that telegraphs his entire combo to cancel it.

Kadoin wrote: »

Millz wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

Millz wrote: »

Back to crystal blast and dizzying swing, they moved the stun to crystal blast and left the cast time which is dumb for a ranged ability but using that model dizzying swing should not have been touched. The knockback animation was what was causing the dsynchs because they dropped the cast time to 0.8 secs from 1.0 sec.

Call me when I can use crushing shock or venom arrow on dizzy swing. Call me when major evasion applies to it. Oh wait...

Millz wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Dizzying Swing was nerfed because it was too strong.
ZOS did a good job.

its tool tip is only slightly more than actual spammable skills and in some cases the same, the problem was not the skill but the knockback animation which they addressed in the pts notes. IF they would quit doing all these drastic changes and listened to feedback and do small logical tweaks maybe they wouldnt have wasted the last few years going back and forth

"Slightly higher" meaning you ignore how weapon damage is stacked and scales with the skill. Got it.

Millz wrote: »

I think a spammable would require it being able to cast without anytime in between

And yet I replaced my spammable with it. How strange.

Crushing shock has no cast time. Venom arrow is a dot. The tool tip is only slightly higher? I don't even know what to say to that. And nice you can now get off TWO abilities in the time it takes for 1 dizzying swing

I mean that dizzy is not interruptible. Also crushing shock is not as strong as dizzy and costs more.

I dare you to advocate reducing the damage of dizzy to crushing shock levels, taking into account the extra resistances certain classes get on spell resist, then moving the cost to the same amount and making it a spammable that does not stun. You won't.

Barbaran wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

Where where all of these people when frags were nerfed and DK whip? Both not as good as dizzy swing on live.

Hmm...

ZOS should have nerfed it a long time ago with both of those skills above, the only reason why they didn't was because no one used it. Now that people are and its "working", its become clear how strong it is. The fact that your build is destroyed by a single addition or removal of a skill is testament to how OP it really is.

Your comparing frags? A skill that without sacraficeing anything could have an INSTANT 20K tooltip and also used to stun?
Give dizzy a 28m range and then we'll talk.

Whip also has no cast time and still hits like a truck. My magdk can hit 5-7k+ spammables no problem... Not the same

And yet that skill does not stun. I wonder why that is. Wait, it kind of does off-balance on a proc with a cooldown. Something similar to Dizzy Swing after the changes. What a coincidence!

Yeah that was my fault I got the words jumbled I also have a lot on my mind lol. And if they got rid of the cast time and made it the same damage as force pulse and has a chance at 3 status effects then why not? Cost could not be the same as to all stamina abilities are cheaper than mag. And the reason it doesnt do as much damage is because there is no cast time like I've been saying. Cast time skills snipe, frags, solar flare and d swing hit harder but not by as much as you think.

Also if they make this change to be like whip then remove the cast time easy as that. I mean thats the logic youre using right? All skills should be the same?

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Millz wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

When C frag was nerfed ZOS said they wanted to move away from high damage abilities with a cc, Its strange that wrecking blow avoided either a nerf to damage or the loss of the cc earlier, half the abilities in the fighters guild line are a cc for those complaining about no replacement

They said they nerfed the damage in the PTS notes to bring it in line with DoTs but they are two different kinds of damage.

Just want to point out for clarification because I think you misread the PTS notes. ZOS said they are bringing it "in-line with DoT standards" in terms of they want DoTs to do 1.25 times more damage than ST damage abilities. It was not meant to be in-line with DoT abilities in general. Currently, DSwing is doing more than the proposed 1.25 damage multiplier of a DoT. Also, on live DoTs are currently at 2.5 times damage multiplier and will be brought down to 1.25 times on PTS for further clarification.

ahh yes i did thank you, still though i mention that the cast time skills are suppose to hit the hardest in the game because of the risk and counterplay to them. DoTs once applied must be healed or mitigated through where with cast time skills snipe, solar flare, d swing, frags you just dodge when you see them do it or block which can be done with any skill in the game they are just more telegraphed hence the reason for high damage. And the damage isn't even that much higher about 1-2k more per hit but requires double the time of an actual spammable

Kadoin wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

And yet that skill does not stun. I wonder why that is. Wait, it kind of does off-balance on a proc with a cooldown. Something similar to Dizzy Swing after the changes. What a coincidence!

Cool, so now we can make Dizzy instant too?

Sure, after there is an execute to use that does 300%+ more damage after spamming whip, whip scales like uppercut does and/or sets start being made available to do the equivalent of 5.5K+ weapon damage on a mag char, and a set that makes it hit 2 other targets for 50% of the whip damage.

Oh and whip is made available to all mag chars.

I think youre misunderstanding mag vs stam. Stam gets high weapon damage and mag gets huge stat pool in return they even out. Yes there are more sets that boost weapon damage than mag but a lot of those sets dont even have the same return of damage as crafty alfiq which is non proc where all stam sets that have weapon dmg 5 piece again require a proc and timing

Kadoin wrote: »

Millz wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

Millz wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

Millz wrote: »

Back to crystal blast and dizzying swing, they moved the stun to crystal blast and left the cast time which is dumb for a ranged ability but using that model dizzying swing should not have been touched. The knockback animation was what was causing the dsynchs because they dropped the cast time to 0.8 secs from 1.0 sec.

Call me when I can use crushing shock or venom arrow on dizzy swing. Call me when major evasion applies to it. Oh wait...

Millz wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Dizzying Swing was nerfed because it was too strong.
ZOS did a good job.

its tool tip is only slightly more than actual spammable skills and in some cases the same, the problem was not the skill but the knockback animation which they addressed in the pts notes. IF they would quit doing all these drastic changes and listened to feedback and do small logical tweaks maybe they wouldnt have wasted the last few years going back and forth

"Slightly higher" meaning you ignore how weapon damage is stacked and scales with the skill. Got it.

Millz wrote: »

I think a spammable would require it being able to cast without anytime in between

And yet I replaced my spammable with it. How strange.

Crushing shock has no cast time. Venom arrow is a dot. The tool tip is only slightly higher? I don't even know what to say to that. And nice you can now get off TWO abilities in the time it takes for 1 dizzying swing

I mean that dizzy is not interruptible. Also crushing shock is not as strong as dizzy and costs more.

I dare you to advocate reducing the damage of dizzy to crushing shock levels, taking into account the extra resistances certain classes get on spell resist, then moving the cost to the same amount and making it a spammable that does not stun. You won't.

Barbaran wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

Where where all of these people when frags were nerfed and DK whip? Both not as good as dizzy swing on live.

Hmm...

ZOS should have nerfed it a long time ago with both of those skills above, the only reason why they didn't was because no one used it. Now that people are and its "working", its become clear how strong it is. The fact that your build is destroyed by a single addition or removal of a skill is testament to how OP it really is.

Your comparing frags? A skill that without sacraficeing anything could have an INSTANT 20K tooltip and also used to stun?
Give dizzy a 28m range and then we'll talk.

Whip also has no cast time and still hits like a truck. My magdk can hit 5-7k+ spammables no problem... Not the same

And yet that skill does not stun. I wonder why that is. Wait, it kind of does off-balance on a proc with a cooldown. Something similar to Dizzy Swing after the changes. What a coincidence!

Yeah that was my fault I got the words jumbled I also have a lot on my mind lol. And if they got rid of the cast time and made it the same damage as force pulse and has a chance at 3 status effects then why not? Cost could not be the same as to all stamina abilities are cheaper than mag. And the reason it doesnt do as much damage is because there is no cast time like I've been saying. Cast time skills snipe, frags, solar flare and d swing hit harder but not by as much as you think.

Also if they make this change to be like whip then remove the cast time easy as that. I mean thats the logic youre using right? All skills should be the same?

You don't seem to get it. 2H has an execute, mag DK? It does not. If it did, whip nerfs would fill the forums in a second.

The way ZOS apparently intended DK to be played is for you to stack DoTs (got nerfed) on a target and wear them down until they die. Whip is supposed to help with that on mag DK, and because it exists, ZOS probably will not introduce a general execute for mag chars or a class execute for DK. And similarly, stam DK not gonna get access to whip. On the live server this only works because DoTs are overtuned right now.

There's also proc sets, but that apparently is ignored by ZOS when doing balance so let's not go there. In fact, I don't know of any mag DK that can kill anyone just using whip. They must stack DoTs and even use destro ult/leap on live right now, despite the "power" of whip and DoTs. You cannot tell me someone is standing and whipping someone to death alone.

Let that compare to 2H on live. You can literally spam dizzy swing, throw in a turn evil if you get bored because your opponent is smart enough to roll or block, and then spam dizzy swing again and use executioner (other morph not reliable because it apparently misses when it shouldn't). Both of them have large tooltips, so what is the difference? The difference on live is the power of the CC and the availability of an execute. That's ignoring onslaught...

Having the CC attached means the skill offers attack and defense in one skill with massive damage and a CC. This was the exact reason why frags got its stun removed and the old lash that stunned also got removed. It is too much in a skill.

Now removing the stun, you compare it to whip. Again, ignoring the availability of the execute. Do you see the problem yet?

Kadoin wrote: »

Millz wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

Millz wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

Millz wrote: »

Back to crystal blast and dizzying swing, they moved the stun to crystal blast and left the cast time which is dumb for a ranged ability but using that model dizzying swing should not have been touched. The knockback animation was what was causing the dsynchs because they dropped the cast time to 0.8 secs from 1.0 sec.

Call me when I can use crushing shock or venom arrow on dizzy swing. Call me when major evasion applies to it. Oh wait...

Millz wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Dizzying Swing was nerfed because it was too strong.
ZOS did a good job.

its tool tip is only slightly more than actual spammable skills and in some cases the same, the problem was not the skill but the knockback animation which they addressed in the pts notes. IF they would quit doing all these drastic changes and listened to feedback and do small logical tweaks maybe they wouldnt have wasted the last few years going back and forth

"Slightly higher" meaning you ignore how weapon damage is stacked and scales with the skill. Got it.

Millz wrote: »

I think a spammable would require it being able to cast without anytime in between

And yet I replaced my spammable with it. How strange.

Crushing shock has no cast time. Venom arrow is a dot. The tool tip is only slightly higher? I don't even know what to say to that. And nice you can now get off TWO abilities in the time it takes for 1 dizzying swing

I mean that dizzy is not interruptible. Also crushing shock is not as strong as dizzy and costs more.

I dare you to advocate reducing the damage of dizzy to crushing shock levels, taking into account the extra resistances certain classes get on spell resist, then moving the cost to the same amount and making it a spammable that does not stun. You won't.

Barbaran wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

Where where all of these people when frags were nerfed and DK whip? Both not as good as dizzy swing on live.

Hmm...

ZOS should have nerfed it a long time ago with both of those skills above, the only reason why they didn't was because no one used it. Now that people are and its "working", its become clear how strong it is. The fact that your build is destroyed by a single addition or removal of a skill is testament to how OP it really is.

Your comparing frags? A skill that without sacraficeing anything could have an INSTANT 20K tooltip and also used to stun?
Give dizzy a 28m range and then we'll talk.

Whip also has no cast time and still hits like a truck. My magdk can hit 5-7k+ spammables no problem... Not the same

And yet that skill does not stun. I wonder why that is. Wait, it kind of does off-balance on a proc with a cooldown. Something similar to Dizzy Swing after the changes. What a coincidence!

Yeah that was my fault I got the words jumbled I also have a lot on my mind lol. And if they got rid of the cast time and made it the same damage as force pulse and has a chance at 3 status effects then why not? Cost could not be the same as to all stamina abilities are cheaper than mag. And the reason it doesnt do as much damage is because there is no cast time like I've been saying. Cast time skills snipe, frags, solar flare and d swing hit harder but not by as much as you think.

Also if they make this change to be like whip then remove the cast time easy as that. I mean thats the logic youre using right? All skills should be the same?

You don't seem to get it. 2H has an execute, mag DK? It does not. If it did, whip nerfs would fill the forums in a second.

The way ZOS apparently intended DK to be played is for you to stack DoTs (got nerfed) on a target and wear them down until they die. Whip is supposed to help with that on mag DK, and because it exists, ZOS probably will not introduce a general execute for mag chars or a class execute for DK. And similarly, stam DK not gonna get access to whip. On the live server this only works because DoTs are overtuned right now.

There's also proc sets, but that apparently is ignored by ZOS when doing balance so let's not go there. In fact, I don't know of any mag DK that can kill anyone just using whip. They must stack DoTs and even use destro ult/leap on live right now, despite the "power" of whip and DoTs. You cannot tell me someone is standing and whipping someone to death alone.

Let that compare to 2H on live. You can literally spam dizzy swing, throw in a turn evil if you get bored because your opponent is smart enough to roll or block, and then spam dizzy swing again and use executioner (other morph not reliable because it apparently misses when it shouldn't). Both of them have large tooltips, so what is the difference? The difference on live is the power of the CC and the availability of an execute. That's ignoring onslaught...

Having the CC attached means the skill offers attack and defense in one skill with massive damage and a CC. This was the exact reason why frags got its stun removed and the old lash that stunned also got removed. It is too much in a skill.

Now removing the stun, you compare it to whip. Again, ignoring the availability of the execute. Do you see the problem yet?

Sorry I didn't even read everything you said but if youre upset about magdk not having an execute then I get it every class should have an option to run an execute thats reasonable. But this thread is about dizzying swing. And Dizzying swing has a cast time which in turn has easy counter play to it. You mention to throw in a turn evil if they are blocking and rolling then that defeats the purpose of dizzying swing so now its just a skill that does dmg with a cast time. At that point youre better off running something else. No one just sits there and spams dizzying swing and if someone lets you do that then thats their own l2p issue. We could talk about combat in another thread and what not but I feel like youre getting off topic and wanting to vent (which i get). But try and keep in perspective that this is specifically about dizzying swing as a skill that has a cast time and as stands with PTS changes is useless because like you said for a stun i will run turn evil and for a spammable well now who knows what ill run. Because like dizzying swing is already counterable the heavy attack that i must follow up with will also be very counterable.

Btw I'm not trying to say there shouldnt be a counter to dizzying swing my view point still stands that i mention it should be returned to 1 sec cast time with the pts change to knockback animation. Because knockback animation was what was making this skill seem OP causing people to dsynch