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Animation cancelling isn't intended after all
-
CambionDaemon✭✭✭Yes, it was unintended but they could not fix it, so they made it a feature instead. Old news.2 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.
Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.
Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.
Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }
At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block
I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration
Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.
Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.
It will not get rid of all macros, but it will get rid of those that do LA weaving only, and that's probably 95% of all macros being used, since anything else has a drawback, while macroing LA weaving has literally 0 drawback. You want to ALWAYS use light attacks between skills when in combat, no matter the situation. That is not the case with block cancelling or dodge roll cancelling.
Interesting point. But the case remains the same, you would still have easily automated combat, and certain people will use that to their advantage; anyone who feels they cant play now unless they have a trusty macro to assist them, will have the same mentality if weaving were removed. I don't know how rife macros are, I'm not going to make any statement or pretence toward it, but I don't believe they are as reliable as human intuition when we consider the variable delays experienced in certain content. Lag differs from dungeon to dungeon, from trial to battleground -- can a macro intelligently determine the best 'wait' duration between key presses per scenario? Surely only a human could compensate for the fluctuation; so unless you have a stable, untouchable ping, I can't see macros being that widely used. I could be wrong on that of course, and it could be that macro users have multiple variations of the same scripts that they enable depending on the content they're doing at the time -- but that seems more effort than a simple button/click at the appropriate time.
I know at least 5 people who (at least occasionally) use LA weaving macros, and only one who automates anything beyond that, and those who use the LA weaving macros are just as outraged about further automation as you are about all macros. That one guy will probably continue doing so, but the other 5 will stop.
Many of the people using the LA macros see it as a workaround for a bug in the game. This cannot be said about macroing an entire rotation, because every other design aspect of combat has a gameplay reason for existing, while LA weaving is just an unintuitive gimmick.
I'm not outraged about macros. Im just saying it takes a certain mindset to justify using them. Weaving isn't a bug that requires a workaround, you don't have to do it, but weaving will improve your dps - - so, scripting that is not a workaround, but a cheat. They aren't utilising a kludgey solution to a problem, they are making use of 3rd party technologies to bolster their performance. Just as steroids aren't a workaround to skinny limbs, but a means to fast track muscle growth unnaturally.
No matter how you spin it, those friends are cheating to achieve what other players work at, and excusing themselves for it. You can't point the finger of blame anywhere else. It definately takes a certain mindset to create that dichotomy of truth.1 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I sat in a room with all the lead devs, combat designers and the game director and we spent an hour discussing Animation Canceling exclusively. We discussed timings and how to make it smoother. You know what was not discussed? Removing AC.
Its not going away. Even if it went away, they would just remove the animations or combat would just be a mess.Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"8 -
valkyrie93✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »At this point, its intended.
There's a tip in the Level Up Advisor explaining how to Light Attack weave. I'm not sure how much more you want.
I'm so confused about this. Is Light Attack weaving the same as Animation Cancelling? I weave in my light attacks in between each skill, but that's not necessarily cancelling the animation of the skill. I know how to animation cancel by barswapping, blocking etc, or am I just not Light attacking fast enough?
Are they the same thing? or are we cancelling the animation of the Light attack by applying the skill? I see talk of both..Edited by valkyrie93 on September 19, 2019 3:51PMPC EU0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭valkyrie93 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »At this point, its intended.
There's a tip in the Level Up Advisor explaining how to Light Attack weave. I'm not sure how much more you want.
I'm so confused about this. Is Light Attack weaving the same as Animation Cancelling? I weave in my light attacks in between each skill, but that's not necessarily cancelling the animation of the skill. I know how to animation cancel by barswapping, blocking etc, or am I just not Light attacking fast enough?
Are they the same thing? or are we cancelling the animation of the Light attack by applying the skill? I see talk of both..
Cancelling the animation of the light attack.
There is a post further up that explains it better.Edited by mairwen85 on September 19, 2019 3:53PM1 -
Runkorko✭✭✭✭✭
✭I sat in a room with all the lead devs, combat designers and the game director and we spent an hour discussing Animation Canceling exclusively. We discussed timings and how to make it smoother. You know what was not discussed? Removing AC.
Its not going away. Even if it went away, they would just remove the animations or combat would just be a mess.
Ok.
So how you will aproach the problem with mouse macros and scripters?
We know scripts are not allowed?
What about mouse macros then? Arent they literaly the same/ same final effect?0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »Watch ANY of "end game elite" guides and you may notice they have not a single mistake in rotation/not one.
Which might be because they've practiced a few more times than you. This is like complaining that someone at the Carnegie doesn't fat finger their piano the way you do. Of course not, because they've been practicing. The amount of time people put into practicing their rotations is downright crazy sometimes.
Also, they do screw up.
Wouldn't surprise me if some people out there really do macro this stuff, but saying anyone in an elite guild must be macroing doesn't pass a scratch and sniff test.5 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.
Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.
Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.
Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }
At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block
I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration
Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.
Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.
It will not get rid of all macros, but it will get rid of those that do LA weaving only, and that's probably 95% of all macros being used, since anything else has a drawback, while macroing LA weaving has literally 0 drawback. You want to ALWAYS use light attacks between skills when in combat, no matter the situation. That is not the case with block cancelling or dodge roll cancelling.
Interesting point. But the case remains the same, you would still have easily automated combat, and certain people will use that to their advantage; anyone who feels they cant play now unless they have a trusty macro to assist them, will have the same mentality if weaving were removed. I don't know how rife macros are, I'm not going to make any statement or pretence toward it, but I don't believe they are as reliable as human intuition when we consider the variable delays experienced in certain content. Lag differs from dungeon to dungeon, from trial to battleground -- can a macro intelligently determine the best 'wait' duration between key presses per scenario? Surely only a human could compensate for the fluctuation; so unless you have a stable, untouchable ping, I can't see macros being that widely used. I could be wrong on that of course, and it could be that macro users have multiple variations of the same scripts that they enable depending on the content they're doing at the time -- but that seems more effort than a simple button/click at the appropriate time.
I know at least 5 people who (at least occasionally) use LA weaving macros, and only one who automates anything beyond that, and those who use the LA weaving macros are just as outraged about further automation as you are about all macros. That one guy will probably continue doing so, but the other 5 will stop.
Many of the people using the LA macros see it as a workaround for a bug in the game. This cannot be said about macroing an entire rotation, because every other design aspect of combat has a gameplay reason for existing, while LA weaving is just an unintuitive gimmick.
How much of them you report?
right...
Why would I report people for making or using fixes to the game that the devs are unable or unwilling to provide?0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I sat in a room with all the lead devs, combat designers and the game director and we spent an hour discussing Animation Canceling exclusively. We discussed timings and how to make it smoother. You know what was not discussed? Removing AC.
Its not going away. Even if it went away, they would just remove the animations or combat would just be a mess.
Was there; can confirm.2 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.
Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.
Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.
Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }
At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block
I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration
Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.
Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.
It will not get rid of all macros, but it will get rid of those that do LA weaving only, and that's probably 95% of all macros being used, since anything else has a drawback, while macroing LA weaving has literally 0 drawback. You want to ALWAYS use light attacks between skills when in combat, no matter the situation. That is not the case with block cancelling or dodge roll cancelling.
Interesting point. But the case remains the same, you would still have easily automated combat, and certain people will use that to their advantage; anyone who feels they cant play now unless they have a trusty macro to assist them, will have the same mentality if weaving were removed. I don't know how rife macros are, I'm not going to make any statement or pretence toward it, but I don't believe they are as reliable as human intuition when we consider the variable delays experienced in certain content. Lag differs from dungeon to dungeon, from trial to battleground -- can a macro intelligently determine the best 'wait' duration between key presses per scenario? Surely only a human could compensate for the fluctuation; so unless you have a stable, untouchable ping, I can't see macros being that widely used. I could be wrong on that of course, and it could be that macro users have multiple variations of the same scripts that they enable depending on the content they're doing at the time -- but that seems more effort than a simple button/click at the appropriate time.
I know at least 5 people who (at least occasionally) use LA weaving macros, and only one who automates anything beyond that, and those who use the LA weaving macros are just as outraged about further automation as you are about all macros. That one guy will probably continue doing so, but the other 5 will stop.
Many of the people using the LA macros see it as a workaround for a bug in the game. This cannot be said about macroing an entire rotation, because every other design aspect of combat has a gameplay reason for existing, while LA weaving is just an unintuitive gimmick.
How much of them you report?
right...
Why would I report people for making or using fixes to the game that the devs are unable or unwilling to provide?
Send me their names. I'll report them for you. Won't even mention your name. You'll be in the clearXBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus3 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.
Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.
Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.
Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }
At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block
I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration
Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.
Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.
It will not get rid of all macros, but it will get rid of those that do LA weaving only, and that's probably 95% of all macros being used, since anything else has a drawback, while macroing LA weaving has literally 0 drawback. You want to ALWAYS use light attacks between skills when in combat, no matter the situation. That is not the case with block cancelling or dodge roll cancelling.
Interesting point. But the case remains the same, you would still have easily automated combat, and certain people will use that to their advantage; anyone who feels they cant play now unless they have a trusty macro to assist them, will have the same mentality if weaving were removed. I don't know how rife macros are, I'm not going to make any statement or pretence toward it, but I don't believe they are as reliable as human intuition when we consider the variable delays experienced in certain content. Lag differs from dungeon to dungeon, from trial to battleground -- can a macro intelligently determine the best 'wait' duration between key presses per scenario? Surely only a human could compensate for the fluctuation; so unless you have a stable, untouchable ping, I can't see macros being that widely used. I could be wrong on that of course, and it could be that macro users have multiple variations of the same scripts that they enable depending on the content they're doing at the time -- but that seems more effort than a simple button/click at the appropriate time.
I know at least 5 people who (at least occasionally) use LA weaving macros, and only one who automates anything beyond that, and those who use the LA weaving macros are just as outraged about further automation as you are about all macros. That one guy will probably continue doing so, but the other 5 will stop.
Many of the people using the LA macros see it as a workaround for a bug in the game. This cannot be said about macroing an entire rotation, because every other design aspect of combat has a gameplay reason for existing, while LA weaving is just an unintuitive gimmick.
I'm not outraged about macros. Im just saying it takes a certain mindset to justify using them. Weaving isn't a bug that requires a workaround, you don't have to do it, but weaving will improve your dps - - so, scripting that is not a workaround, but a cheat. They aren't utilising a kludgey solution to a problem, they are making use of 3rd party technologies to bolster their performance. Just as steroids aren't a workaround to skinny limbs, but a means to fast track muscle growth unnaturally.
No matter how you spin it, those friends are cheating to achieve what other players work at, and excusing themselves for it. You can't point the finger of blame anywhere else. It definately takes a certain mindset to create that dichotomy of truth.
Except it's not bolstering anyone's performance, they still do the same rotation, the only difference is, they press one button for each skill instead of 2.1 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.
Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.
Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.
Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }
At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block
I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration
Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.
Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.
It will not get rid of all macros, but it will get rid of those that do LA weaving only, and that's probably 95% of all macros being used, since anything else has a drawback, while macroing LA weaving has literally 0 drawback. You want to ALWAYS use light attacks between skills when in combat, no matter the situation. That is not the case with block cancelling or dodge roll cancelling.
Interesting point. But the case remains the same, you would still have easily automated combat, and certain people will use that to their advantage; anyone who feels they cant play now unless they have a trusty macro to assist them, will have the same mentality if weaving were removed. I don't know how rife macros are, I'm not going to make any statement or pretence toward it, but I don't believe they are as reliable as human intuition when we consider the variable delays experienced in certain content. Lag differs from dungeon to dungeon, from trial to battleground -- can a macro intelligently determine the best 'wait' duration between key presses per scenario? Surely only a human could compensate for the fluctuation; so unless you have a stable, untouchable ping, I can't see macros being that widely used. I could be wrong on that of course, and it could be that macro users have multiple variations of the same scripts that they enable depending on the content they're doing at the time -- but that seems more effort than a simple button/click at the appropriate time.
I know at least 5 people who (at least occasionally) use LA weaving macros, and only one who automates anything beyond that, and those who use the LA weaving macros are just as outraged about further automation as you are about all macros. That one guy will probably continue doing so, but the other 5 will stop.
Many of the people using the LA macros see it as a workaround for a bug in the game. This cannot be said about macroing an entire rotation, because every other design aspect of combat has a gameplay reason for existing, while LA weaving is just an unintuitive gimmick.
I'm not outraged about macros. Im just saying it takes a certain mindset to justify using them. Weaving isn't a bug that requires a workaround, you don't have to do it, but weaving will improve your dps - - so, scripting that is not a workaround, but a cheat. They aren't utilising a kludgey solution to a problem, they are making use of 3rd party technologies to bolster their performance. Just as steroids aren't a workaround to skinny limbs, but a means to fast track muscle growth unnaturally.
No matter how you spin it, those friends are cheating to achieve what other players work at, and excusing themselves for it. You can't point the finger of blame anywhere else. It definately takes a certain mindset to create that dichotomy of truth.
Except it's not bolstering anyone's performance, they still do the same rotation, the only difference is, they press one button for each skill instead of 2.
But that does improve their dps, ergo performance, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Better results for less effort...
I need that brick wall meme again it seems.Edited by mairwen85 on September 19, 2019 4:05PM2 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.
Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.
Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.
Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }
At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block
I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration
Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.
Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.
It will not get rid of all macros, but it will get rid of those that do LA weaving only, and that's probably 95% of all macros being used, since anything else has a drawback, while macroing LA weaving has literally 0 drawback. You want to ALWAYS use light attacks between skills when in combat, no matter the situation. That is not the case with block cancelling or dodge roll cancelling.
Interesting point. But the case remains the same, you would still have easily automated combat, and certain people will use that to their advantage; anyone who feels they cant play now unless they have a trusty macro to assist them, will have the same mentality if weaving were removed. I don't know how rife macros are, I'm not going to make any statement or pretence toward it, but I don't believe they are as reliable as human intuition when we consider the variable delays experienced in certain content. Lag differs from dungeon to dungeon, from trial to battleground -- can a macro intelligently determine the best 'wait' duration between key presses per scenario? Surely only a human could compensate for the fluctuation; so unless you have a stable, untouchable ping, I can't see macros being that widely used. I could be wrong on that of course, and it could be that macro users have multiple variations of the same scripts that they enable depending on the content they're doing at the time -- but that seems more effort than a simple button/click at the appropriate time.
I know at least 5 people who (at least occasionally) use LA weaving macros, and only one who automates anything beyond that, and those who use the LA weaving macros are just as outraged about further automation as you are about all macros. That one guy will probably continue doing so, but the other 5 will stop.
Many of the people using the LA macros see it as a workaround for a bug in the game. This cannot be said about macroing an entire rotation, because every other design aspect of combat has a gameplay reason for existing, while LA weaving is just an unintuitive gimmick.
I'm not outraged about macros. Im just saying it takes a certain mindset to justify using them. Weaving isn't a bug that requires a workaround, you don't have to do it, but weaving will improve your dps - - so, scripting that is not a workaround, but a cheat. They aren't utilising a kludgey solution to a problem, they are making use of 3rd party technologies to bolster their performance. Just as steroids aren't a workaround to skinny limbs, but a means to fast track muscle growth unnaturally.
No matter how you spin it, those friends are cheating to achieve what other players work at, and excusing themselves for it. You can't point the finger of blame anywhere else. It definately takes a certain mindset to create that dichotomy of truth.
Except it's not bolstering anyone's performance, they still do the same rotation, the only difference is, they press one button for each skill instead of 2.
But that does improve their dps, ergo performance, otherwise they wouldn't do it.
I need that brick wall meme again it seems.
No, they are doing it because LA weaving is pointless, not because using a macro for it improves their DPS. If they manually pressed the mouse button every second, their results would be the same, ergo no difference in performance.
Feel free to look at your meme yourself, as it applies to you more than to me.0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.
Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.
Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.
Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }
At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block
I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration
Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.
Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.
It will not get rid of all macros, but it will get rid of those that do LA weaving only, and that's probably 95% of all macros being used, since anything else has a drawback, while macroing LA weaving has literally 0 drawback. You want to ALWAYS use light attacks between skills when in combat, no matter the situation. That is not the case with block cancelling or dodge roll cancelling.
Interesting point. But the case remains the same, you would still have easily automated combat, and certain people will use that to their advantage; anyone who feels they cant play now unless they have a trusty macro to assist them, will have the same mentality if weaving were removed. I don't know how rife macros are, I'm not going to make any statement or pretence toward it, but I don't believe they are as reliable as human intuition when we consider the variable delays experienced in certain content. Lag differs from dungeon to dungeon, from trial to battleground -- can a macro intelligently determine the best 'wait' duration between key presses per scenario? Surely only a human could compensate for the fluctuation; so unless you have a stable, untouchable ping, I can't see macros being that widely used. I could be wrong on that of course, and it could be that macro users have multiple variations of the same scripts that they enable depending on the content they're doing at the time -- but that seems more effort than a simple button/click at the appropriate time.
I know at least 5 people who (at least occasionally) use LA weaving macros, and only one who automates anything beyond that, and those who use the LA weaving macros are just as outraged about further automation as you are about all macros. That one guy will probably continue doing so, but the other 5 will stop.
Many of the people using the LA macros see it as a workaround for a bug in the game. This cannot be said about macroing an entire rotation, because every other design aspect of combat has a gameplay reason for existing, while LA weaving is just an unintuitive gimmick.
I'm not outraged about macros. Im just saying it takes a certain mindset to justify using them. Weaving isn't a bug that requires a workaround, you don't have to do it, but weaving will improve your dps - - so, scripting that is not a workaround, but a cheat. They aren't utilising a kludgey solution to a problem, they are making use of 3rd party technologies to bolster their performance. Just as steroids aren't a workaround to skinny limbs, but a means to fast track muscle growth unnaturally.
No matter how you spin it, those friends are cheating to achieve what other players work at, and excusing themselves for it. You can't point the finger of blame anywhere else. It definately takes a certain mindset to create that dichotomy of truth.
Except it's not bolstering anyone's performance, they still do the same rotation, the only difference is, they press one button for each skill instead of 2.
But that does improve their dps, ergo performance, otherwise they wouldn't do it.
I need that brick wall meme again it seems.
No, they are doing it because LA weaving is pointless, not because using a macro for it improves their DPS. If they manually pressed the mouse button every second, their results would be the same, ergo no difference in performance.
Feel free to look at your meme yourself, as it applies to you more than to me.so pointless that rather than not do it, they automate it
OK then, same results for less effort. Does that sound better?
As for your reasoning. Do you not see your own circular logic?Edited by mairwen85 on September 19, 2019 4:17PM1 -
Huyen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Found this in the archive
This news was already old 4 years ago...never intended but they decided to stick with it.Huyen Shadowpaw, dedicated nightblade tank - PS4 (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, nightblade dps - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Lightpaw, templar healer - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, necromancer dps - PC EU (Retired)
Huyen Swiftpaw, dragonknight (no defined role yet)
"Failure is only the opportunity to begin again. Only this time, more wisely" - Uncle Iroh0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
This was old news when Jess typed that. They'd already stated publicly that Animation Canceling was acceptable, and had already decided to embrace it. Also, that was July 2014, five years ago. The decision to embrace Animation Canceling came less than a month after launch.1 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.
Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.
Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.
Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }
At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block
I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration
Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.
Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.
It will not get rid of all macros, but it will get rid of those that do LA weaving only, and that's probably 95% of all macros being used, since anything else has a drawback, while macroing LA weaving has literally 0 drawback. You want to ALWAYS use light attacks between skills when in combat, no matter the situation. That is not the case with block cancelling or dodge roll cancelling.
Interesting point. But the case remains the same, you would still have easily automated combat, and certain people will use that to their advantage; anyone who feels they cant play now unless they have a trusty macro to assist them, will have the same mentality if weaving were removed. I don't know how rife macros are, I'm not going to make any statement or pretence toward it, but I don't believe they are as reliable as human intuition when we consider the variable delays experienced in certain content. Lag differs from dungeon to dungeon, from trial to battleground -- can a macro intelligently determine the best 'wait' duration between key presses per scenario? Surely only a human could compensate for the fluctuation; so unless you have a stable, untouchable ping, I can't see macros being that widely used. I could be wrong on that of course, and it could be that macro users have multiple variations of the same scripts that they enable depending on the content they're doing at the time -- but that seems more effort than a simple button/click at the appropriate time.
I know at least 5 people who (at least occasionally) use LA weaving macros, and only one who automates anything beyond that, and those who use the LA weaving macros are just as outraged about further automation as you are about all macros. That one guy will probably continue doing so, but the other 5 will stop.
Many of the people using the LA macros see it as a workaround for a bug in the game. This cannot be said about macroing an entire rotation, because every other design aspect of combat has a gameplay reason for existing, while LA weaving is just an unintuitive gimmick.
I'm not outraged about macros. Im just saying it takes a certain mindset to justify using them. Weaving isn't a bug that requires a workaround, you don't have to do it, but weaving will improve your dps - - so, scripting that is not a workaround, but a cheat. They aren't utilising a kludgey solution to a problem, they are making use of 3rd party technologies to bolster their performance. Just as steroids aren't a workaround to skinny limbs, but a means to fast track muscle growth unnaturally.
No matter how you spin it, those friends are cheating to achieve what other players work at, and excusing themselves for it. You can't point the finger of blame anywhere else. It definately takes a certain mindset to create that dichotomy of truth.
Except it's not bolstering anyone's performance, they still do the same rotation, the only difference is, they press one button for each skill instead of 2.
But that does improve their dps, ergo performance, otherwise they wouldn't do it.
I need that brick wall meme again it seems.
No, they are doing it because LA weaving is pointless, not because using a macro for it improves their DPS. If they manually pressed the mouse button every second, their results would be the same, ergo no difference in performance.
Feel free to look at your meme yourself, as it applies to you more than to me.
OK then, same results for less effort. Does that sound better?
As for your reasoning. Do you not see your own circular logic?
Firstly, I fail to see any circle. And secondly, regardless of whether you think macroing LA weaving is cheating or not, the following points stand:
1. There will be significantly fewer people people using macros, because the overwhelming majority of them only use it to deal with the "feature" (regardless of your opinion on it).
2. It's an unintuitive "mechanic" that most people wouldn't even find out by themselves if they weren't told how it's done, yet it's a core mechanic of the game without using which you will not be able to complete all content in the game, meaning this is bad game design if it was intended, or bug if it was not.
The macro discussion is off-topic anyways, it just has cursory relevance. It's LA weaving that is the real problem.0 -
Delparis✭✭✭✭✭It’s cheating, let’s get rid of it.I sat in a room with all the lead devs, combat designers and the game director and we spent an hour discussing Animation Canceling exclusively. We discussed timings and how to make it smoother. You know what was not discussed? Removing AC.
Its not going away. Even if it went away, they would just remove the animations or combat would just be a mess.
Completely agree with both of you.
When a mechanic is broken "we" generaly fix it otherwise it will break more mechanics.
Sending 10 times the allowed queries cause server issues, lag, frame rate drop, attacks that fail to connect, ...1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.
Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.
Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.
Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }
At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block
I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration
Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.
Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.
It will not get rid of all macros, but it will get rid of those that do LA weaving only, and that's probably 95% of all macros being used, since anything else has a drawback, while macroing LA weaving has literally 0 drawback. You want to ALWAYS use light attacks between skills when in combat, no matter the situation. That is not the case with block cancelling or dodge roll cancelling.
Interesting point. But the case remains the same, you would still have easily automated combat, and certain people will use that to their advantage; anyone who feels they cant play now unless they have a trusty macro to assist them, will have the same mentality if weaving were removed. I don't know how rife macros are, I'm not going to make any statement or pretence toward it, but I don't believe they are as reliable as human intuition when we consider the variable delays experienced in certain content. Lag differs from dungeon to dungeon, from trial to battleground -- can a macro intelligently determine the best 'wait' duration between key presses per scenario? Surely only a human could compensate for the fluctuation; so unless you have a stable, untouchable ping, I can't see macros being that widely used. I could be wrong on that of course, and it could be that macro users have multiple variations of the same scripts that they enable depending on the content they're doing at the time -- but that seems more effort than a simple button/click at the appropriate time.
I know at least 5 people who (at least occasionally) use LA weaving macros, and only one who automates anything beyond that, and those who use the LA weaving macros are just as outraged about further automation as you are about all macros. That one guy will probably continue doing so, but the other 5 will stop.
Many of the people using the LA macros see it as a workaround for a bug in the game. This cannot be said about macroing an entire rotation, because every other design aspect of combat has a gameplay reason for existing, while LA weaving is just an unintuitive gimmick.
I'm not outraged about macros. Im just saying it takes a certain mindset to justify using them. Weaving isn't a bug that requires a workaround, you don't have to do it, but weaving will improve your dps - - so, scripting that is not a workaround, but a cheat. They aren't utilising a kludgey solution to a problem, they are making use of 3rd party technologies to bolster their performance. Just as steroids aren't a workaround to skinny limbs, but a means to fast track muscle growth unnaturally.
No matter how you spin it, those friends are cheating to achieve what other players work at, and excusing themselves for it. You can't point the finger of blame anywhere else. It definately takes a certain mindset to create that dichotomy of truth.
Except it's not bolstering anyone's performance, they still do the same rotation, the only difference is, they press one button for each skill instead of 2.
But that does improve their dps, ergo performance, otherwise they wouldn't do it.
I need that brick wall meme again it seems.
No, they are doing it because LA weaving is pointless, not because using a macro for it improves their DPS. If they manually pressed the mouse button every second, their results would be the same, ergo no difference in performance.
Feel free to look at your meme yourself, as it applies to you more than to me.
OK then, same results for less effort. Does that sound better?
As for your reasoning. Do you not see your own circular logic?
Firstly, I fail to see any circle. And secondly, regardless of whether you think macroing LA weaving is cheating or not, the following points stand:
1. There will be significantly fewer people people using macros, because the overwhelming majority of them only use it to deal with the "feature" (regardless of your opinion on it).
2. It's an unintuitive "mechanic" that most people wouldn't even find out by themselves if they weren't told how it's done, yet it's a core mechanic of the game without using which you will not be able to complete all content in the game, meaning this is bad game design if it was intended, or bug if it was not.
The macro discussion is off-topic anyways, it just has cursory relevance. It's LA weaving that is the real problem.
In the presence of animation queuing, it would actually be easier to macro abilities, because the time sensitivity would not be as significant.1 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.
Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.
Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.
Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }
At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block
I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration
Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.
Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.
It will not get rid of all macros, but it will get rid of those that do LA weaving only, and that's probably 95% of all macros being used, since anything else has a drawback, while macroing LA weaving has literally 0 drawback. You want to ALWAYS use light attacks between skills when in combat, no matter the situation. That is not the case with block cancelling or dodge roll cancelling.
Interesting point. But the case remains the same, you would still have easily automated combat, and certain people will use that to their advantage; anyone who feels they cant play now unless they have a trusty macro to assist them, will have the same mentality if weaving were removed. I don't know how rife macros are, I'm not going to make any statement or pretence toward it, but I don't believe they are as reliable as human intuition when we consider the variable delays experienced in certain content. Lag differs from dungeon to dungeon, from trial to battleground -- can a macro intelligently determine the best 'wait' duration between key presses per scenario? Surely only a human could compensate for the fluctuation; so unless you have a stable, untouchable ping, I can't see macros being that widely used. I could be wrong on that of course, and it could be that macro users have multiple variations of the same scripts that they enable depending on the content they're doing at the time -- but that seems more effort than a simple button/click at the appropriate time.
I know at least 5 people who (at least occasionally) use LA weaving macros, and only one who automates anything beyond that, and those who use the LA weaving macros are just as outraged about further automation as you are about all macros. That one guy will probably continue doing so, but the other 5 will stop.
Many of the people using the LA macros see it as a workaround for a bug in the game. This cannot be said about macroing an entire rotation, because every other design aspect of combat has a gameplay reason for existing, while LA weaving is just an unintuitive gimmick.
I'm not outraged about macros. Im just saying it takes a certain mindset to justify using them. Weaving isn't a bug that requires a workaround, you don't have to do it, but weaving will improve your dps - - so, scripting that is not a workaround, but a cheat. They aren't utilising a kludgey solution to a problem, they are making use of 3rd party technologies to bolster their performance. Just as steroids aren't a workaround to skinny limbs, but a means to fast track muscle growth unnaturally.
No matter how you spin it, those friends are cheating to achieve what other players work at, and excusing themselves for it. You can't point the finger of blame anywhere else. It definately takes a certain mindset to create that dichotomy of truth.
Except it's not bolstering anyone's performance, they still do the same rotation, the only difference is, they press one button for each skill instead of 2.
But that does improve their dps, ergo performance, otherwise they wouldn't do it.
I need that brick wall meme again it seems.
No, they are doing it because LA weaving is pointless, not because using a macro for it improves their DPS. If they manually pressed the mouse button every second, their results would be the same, ergo no difference in performance.
Feel free to look at your meme yourself, as it applies to you more than to me.
OK then, same results for less effort. Does that sound better?
As for your reasoning. Do you not see your own circular logic?
Firstly, I fail to see any circle. And secondly, regardless of whether you think macroing LA weaving is cheating or not, the following points stand:
1. There will be significantly fewer people people using macros, because the overwhelming majority of them only use it to deal with the "feature" (regardless of your opinion on it).
2. It's an unintuitive "mechanic" that most people wouldn't even find out by themselves if they weren't told how it's done, yet it's a core mechanic of the game without using which you will not be able to complete all content in the game, meaning this is bad game design if it was intended, or bug if it was not.
The macro discussion is off-topic anyways, it just has cursory relevance. It's LA weaving that is the real problem.
ZOS decided macros are cheating. Everyone playing the game agrees with that decision via ToS.
It's not off topic when one of the core counter arguments in this discussion is the position that weaving results in people using macros. Also not off topic when you state it as point 1 in your reply to me.
There are many things in this game you wouldn't know about unless someone told you or you researched it.
2 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭I sat in a room with all the lead devs, combat designers and the game director and we spent an hour discussing Animation Canceling exclusively. We discussed timings and how to make it smoother. You know what was not discussed? Removing AC.
Its not going away. Even if it went away, they would just remove the animations or combat would just be a mess.
This just tells me that you're a bad "Community Ambassador", otherwise you would have brought it up, since obviously a lot of people disagree.1 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.
Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.
Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.
Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }
At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block
I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration
Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.
Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.
It will not get rid of all macros, but it will get rid of those that do LA weaving only, and that's probably 95% of all macros being used, since anything else has a drawback, while macroing LA weaving has literally 0 drawback. You want to ALWAYS use light attacks between skills when in combat, no matter the situation. That is not the case with block cancelling or dodge roll cancelling.
Interesting point. But the case remains the same, you would still have easily automated combat, and certain people will use that to their advantage; anyone who feels they cant play now unless they have a trusty macro to assist them, will have the same mentality if weaving were removed. I don't know how rife macros are, I'm not going to make any statement or pretence toward it, but I don't believe they are as reliable as human intuition when we consider the variable delays experienced in certain content. Lag differs from dungeon to dungeon, from trial to battleground -- can a macro intelligently determine the best 'wait' duration between key presses per scenario? Surely only a human could compensate for the fluctuation; so unless you have a stable, untouchable ping, I can't see macros being that widely used. I could be wrong on that of course, and it could be that macro users have multiple variations of the same scripts that they enable depending on the content they're doing at the time -- but that seems more effort than a simple button/click at the appropriate time.
I know at least 5 people who (at least occasionally) use LA weaving macros, and only one who automates anything beyond that, and those who use the LA weaving macros are just as outraged about further automation as you are about all macros. That one guy will probably continue doing so, but the other 5 will stop.
Many of the people using the LA macros see it as a workaround for a bug in the game. This cannot be said about macroing an entire rotation, because every other design aspect of combat has a gameplay reason for existing, while LA weaving is just an unintuitive gimmick.
I'm not outraged about macros. Im just saying it takes a certain mindset to justify using them. Weaving isn't a bug that requires a workaround, you don't have to do it, but weaving will improve your dps - - so, scripting that is not a workaround, but a cheat. They aren't utilising a kludgey solution to a problem, they are making use of 3rd party technologies to bolster their performance. Just as steroids aren't a workaround to skinny limbs, but a means to fast track muscle growth unnaturally.
No matter how you spin it, those friends are cheating to achieve what other players work at, and excusing themselves for it. You can't point the finger of blame anywhere else. It definately takes a certain mindset to create that dichotomy of truth.
Except it's not bolstering anyone's performance, they still do the same rotation, the only difference is, they press one button for each skill instead of 2.
But that does improve their dps, ergo performance, otherwise they wouldn't do it.
I need that brick wall meme again it seems.
No, they are doing it because LA weaving is pointless, not because using a macro for it improves their DPS. If they manually pressed the mouse button every second, their results would be the same, ergo no difference in performance.
Feel free to look at your meme yourself, as it applies to you more than to me.
OK then, same results for less effort. Does that sound better?
As for your reasoning. Do you not see your own circular logic?
Firstly, I fail to see any circle. And secondly, regardless of whether you think macroing LA weaving is cheating or not, the following points stand:
1. There will be significantly fewer people people using macros, because the overwhelming majority of them only use it to deal with the "feature" (regardless of your opinion on it).
2. It's an unintuitive "mechanic" that most people wouldn't even find out by themselves if they weren't told how it's done, yet it's a core mechanic of the game without using which you will not be able to complete all content in the game, meaning this is bad game design if it was intended, or bug if it was not.
The macro discussion is off-topic anyways, it just has cursory relevance. It's LA weaving that is the real problem.
ZOS decided macros are cheating. Everyone playing the game agrees with that decision via ToS.
It's not off topic when one of the core counter arguments in this discussion is the position that weaving results in people using macros. Also not off topic when you state it as point 1 in your reply to me.
There are many things in this game you wouldn't know about unless someone told you or you researched it.
It's point one, because that's the one you seem most concerned about, and I was arguing mostly with you.0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.
Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.
Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.
Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }
At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block
I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration
Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.
Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.
It will not get rid of all macros, but it will get rid of those that do LA weaving only, and that's probably 95% of all macros being used, since anything else has a drawback, while macroing LA weaving has literally 0 drawback. You want to ALWAYS use light attacks between skills when in combat, no matter the situation. That is not the case with block cancelling or dodge roll cancelling.
Interesting point. But the case remains the same, you would still have easily automated combat, and certain people will use that to their advantage; anyone who feels they cant play now unless they have a trusty macro to assist them, will have the same mentality if weaving were removed. I don't know how rife macros are, I'm not going to make any statement or pretence toward it, but I don't believe they are as reliable as human intuition when we consider the variable delays experienced in certain content. Lag differs from dungeon to dungeon, from trial to battleground -- can a macro intelligently determine the best 'wait' duration between key presses per scenario? Surely only a human could compensate for the fluctuation; so unless you have a stable, untouchable ping, I can't see macros being that widely used. I could be wrong on that of course, and it could be that macro users have multiple variations of the same scripts that they enable depending on the content they're doing at the time -- but that seems more effort than a simple button/click at the appropriate time.
I know at least 5 people who (at least occasionally) use LA weaving macros, and only one who automates anything beyond that, and those who use the LA weaving macros are just as outraged about further automation as you are about all macros. That one guy will probably continue doing so, but the other 5 will stop.
Many of the people using the LA macros see it as a workaround for a bug in the game. This cannot be said about macroing an entire rotation, because every other design aspect of combat has a gameplay reason for existing, while LA weaving is just an unintuitive gimmick.
I'm not outraged about macros. Im just saying it takes a certain mindset to justify using them. Weaving isn't a bug that requires a workaround, you don't have to do it, but weaving will improve your dps - - so, scripting that is not a workaround, but a cheat. They aren't utilising a kludgey solution to a problem, they are making use of 3rd party technologies to bolster their performance. Just as steroids aren't a workaround to skinny limbs, but a means to fast track muscle growth unnaturally.
No matter how you spin it, those friends are cheating to achieve what other players work at, and excusing themselves for it. You can't point the finger of blame anywhere else. It definately takes a certain mindset to create that dichotomy of truth.
Except it's not bolstering anyone's performance, they still do the same rotation, the only difference is, they press one button for each skill instead of 2.
But that does improve their dps, ergo performance, otherwise they wouldn't do it.
I need that brick wall meme again it seems.
No, they are doing it because LA weaving is pointless, not because using a macro for it improves their DPS. If they manually pressed the mouse button every second, their results would be the same, ergo no difference in performance.
Feel free to look at your meme yourself, as it applies to you more than to me.
OK then, same results for less effort. Does that sound better?
As for your reasoning. Do you not see your own circular logic?
Firstly, I fail to see any circle. And secondly, regardless of whether you think macroing LA weaving is cheating or not, the following points stand:
1. There will be significantly fewer people people using macros, because the overwhelming majority of them only use it to deal with the "feature" (regardless of your opinion on it).
2. It's an unintuitive "mechanic" that most people wouldn't even find out by themselves if they weren't told how it's done, yet it's a core mechanic of the game without using which you will not be able to complete all content in the game, meaning this is bad game design if it was intended, or bug if it was not.
The macro discussion is off-topic anyways, it just has cursory relevance. It's LA weaving that is the real problem.
ZOS decided macros are cheating. Everyone playing the game agrees with that decision via ToS.
It's not off topic when one of the core counter arguments in this discussion is the position that weaving results in people using macros. Also not off topic when you state it as point 1 in your reply to me.
There are many things in this game you wouldn't know about unless someone told you or you researched it.
It's point one, because that's the one you seem most concerned about, and I was arguing mostly with you.
I get that. Odd as it seems I also appreciate where you're coming from (so not arguing, but having a candid debate). But in the scope of what is actually being discussed here, I disagree that weaving is pointless, or that it is the primary driver for why players reach for scripts.
There are many reasons people are against weaving / animation cancelling. All of which presented in this thread at some point. None of them are weighted enough to force its removal, and others such as justification for cheating, in my opinion, hold water under scrutiny.
I agree we've exhausted that last angle, but what other argument presented is there to discuss on this that doesn't fall over at the first hurdle?Edited by mairwen85 on September 19, 2019 4:57PM0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
This, and macros has lots of limits, it does not work in PvP as you need to be way more flexible, it also does not work for high end PvE, yes its an shortcut and yes I have tried it but it lock you into the macro, you can not block cast for one.Well intended or not I would still love a GCD on light and heavy attacks and made them more powerful but harder to aim at your target. That would be a an equal skillgap.
Not now when you have half of people using scripts and macros that automatically combine a skill use with weaving and anim cancel with a single button press.
And no, don't even try to convince me that macros aren't a thing or that they aren't reliable. I've seen them work myself and the actual apps with my own eyes. All you need is very basic programming knowledge.
Combine them with a mouse like razer Naga that has 12 buttons on the side and you can effectively use multiple macro setups, so the more complicated sequences won't limit you in unusable situations.
Macros for LA weaving are still widely used.
Mouses like logitech, razer that comes with a tool let you LA+skill.
Other addons (won't say the name) let you do more complicated stuff.
There are even someone who shared a script that works even if you don't have those mouses (just google "github LA weaving eso").
People say weaving helps making a gap between skilled and noobs, it doesn't...
It just gives an advantage to who afford expensive mouses with programmable buttons or good IT knowledge.
I don't like a game where people are classified and given unjustified advantage over others.
This is just a game after all....
You don't need macros or a fancy mouse to weave or cancel.
An macro let an bad player do 20K dps rater than 15.
And yes I tried to scrip the entire Templar rotation into an macro to find max dps. This was before Morrowind, I found that spamming dark flares with LA canceling while keeping entropy up worked best. she became an healer
Edited by zaria on September 19, 2019 5:39PMGrinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.1 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CambionDaemon wrote: »Yes, it was unintended but they could not fix it, so they made it a feature instead. Old news.
I know the forum likes to say this, but this is not at all likely. I can not see ANY scenario where ZOS developers put animation cancelling in the game by accident. What you have to understand is how to read between the lines when ZOS PR people say the word "unintended". Many times what is actually unintended is the BACKLASH they hear on the forums, not the thing under discussion itself. In other words. ZOS didn't intend to be inundated with the constant forum gripes since 2014 about animation canceling, but they did intend for certain animations to be cut short when another action takes priority. ZOS has ALREADY explained years ago that certain animations take priority over others. Spells, for example, cancel the animation for light attacks if cast immediately afterward. This is not a bug, accident or exploit. It's a feature. Period.
Edited by Emma_Overload on September 19, 2019 5:52PM#CAREBEARMASTERRACE2 -
D0PAMINE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.
Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.
Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.
Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }
At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block
I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration
Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.
Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.
it will if Skills and LA/HA/Swap/block and dodge roll will share the same GCD.
OMG... really, so all on the same GCD... can you imagine. Please describe your vision for reactive play.
The combat is too fast atm so slowing things down should help increase the server performance.
If every single player is spamming LA-Skill-bash every 1 sec even NASA server won't be able to manage the load.
Dude, why don't you just play Candy Crush instead of trying to change ESO into a slow, turn-based game.
Even the devs are laughing at their idea0 -
MaleAmazon✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's not "unintended", it's "not exactly intended but not an exploit". Much in the same way the Alik'r dolmens weren't intentionally put in to allow people to farm jewelry and fighters guild xp. It's just something players realized you could do.0 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.
Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.
Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.
Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }
At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block
I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration
Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.
Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.
It will not get rid of all macros, but it will get rid of those that do LA weaving only, and that's probably 95% of all macros being used, since anything else has a drawback, while macroing LA weaving has literally 0 drawback. You want to ALWAYS use light attacks between skills when in combat, no matter the situation. That is not the case with block cancelling or dodge roll cancelling.
Interesting point. But the case remains the same, you would still have easily automated combat, and certain people will use that to their advantage; anyone who feels they cant play now unless they have a trusty macro to assist them, will have the same mentality if weaving were removed. I don't know how rife macros are, I'm not going to make any statement or pretence toward it, but I don't believe they are as reliable as human intuition when we consider the variable delays experienced in certain content. Lag differs from dungeon to dungeon, from trial to battleground -- can a macro intelligently determine the best 'wait' duration between key presses per scenario? Surely only a human could compensate for the fluctuation; so unless you have a stable, untouchable ping, I can't see macros being that widely used. I could be wrong on that of course, and it could be that macro users have multiple variations of the same scripts that they enable depending on the content they're doing at the time -- but that seems more effort than a simple button/click at the appropriate time.
I know at least 5 people who (at least occasionally) use LA weaving macros, and only one who automates anything beyond that, and those who use the LA weaving macros are just as outraged about further automation as you are about all macros. That one guy will probably continue doing so, but the other 5 will stop.
Many of the people using the LA macros see it as a workaround for a bug in the game. This cannot be said about macroing an entire rotation, because every other design aspect of combat has a gameplay reason for existing, while LA weaving is just an unintuitive gimmick.
I'm not outraged about macros. Im just saying it takes a certain mindset to justify using them. Weaving isn't a bug that requires a workaround, you don't have to do it, but weaving will improve your dps - - so, scripting that is not a workaround, but a cheat. They aren't utilising a kludgey solution to a problem, they are making use of 3rd party technologies to bolster their performance. Just as steroids aren't a workaround to skinny limbs, but a means to fast track muscle growth unnaturally.
No matter how you spin it, those friends are cheating to achieve what other players work at, and excusing themselves for it. You can't point the finger of blame anywhere else. It definately takes a certain mindset to create that dichotomy of truth.
Except it's not bolstering anyone's performance, they still do the same rotation, the only difference is, they press one button for each skill instead of 2.
But that does improve their dps, ergo performance, otherwise they wouldn't do it.
I need that brick wall meme again it seems.
No, they are doing it because LA weaving is pointless, not because using a macro for it improves their DPS. If they manually pressed the mouse button every second, their results would be the same, ergo no difference in performance.
Feel free to look at your meme yourself, as it applies to you more than to me.
OK then, same results for less effort. Does that sound better?
As for your reasoning. Do you not see your own circular logic?
Firstly, I fail to see any circle. And secondly, regardless of whether you think macroing LA weaving is cheating or not, the following points stand:
1. There will be significantly fewer people people using macros, because the overwhelming majority of them only use it to deal with the "feature" (regardless of your opinion on it).
2. It's an unintuitive "mechanic" that most people wouldn't even find out by themselves if they weren't told how it's done, yet it's a core mechanic of the game without using which you will not be able to complete all content in the game, meaning this is bad game design if it was intended, or bug if it was not.
The macro discussion is off-topic anyways, it just has cursory relevance. It's LA weaving that is the real problem.
ZOS decided macros are cheating. Everyone playing the game agrees with that decision via ToS.
It's not off topic when one of the core counter arguments in this discussion is the position that weaving results in people using macros. Also not off topic when you state it as point 1 in your reply to me.
There are many things in this game you wouldn't know about unless someone told you or you researched it.
It's point one, because that's the one you seem most concerned about, and I was arguing mostly with you.
I get that. Odd as it seems I also appreciate where you're coming from (so not arguing, but having a candid debate). But in the scope of what is actually being discussed here, I disagree that weaving is pointless, or that it is the primary driver for why players reach for scripts.
There are many reasons people are against weaving / animation cancelling. All of which presented in this thread at some point. None of them are weighted enough to force its removal, and others such as justification for cheating, in my opinion, hold water under scrutiny.
I agree we've exhausted that last angle, but what other argument presented is there to discuss on this that doesn't fall over at the first hurdle?
Well, my biggest issue is that it's an unnecessary complication that doesn't add any depth to the game. Things that you always have to do, regardless of the situation, that do not require any thought put into it, are tedious just for the sake of being tedious. That's what LA weaving is.
Name me one other thing that you have to do all the time in combat, regardless of the situation. Name me one other AAA game where you have to do something similar in combat.
With skills you have to decide, what skills to use, every second. Yes, there are static rotations, but they only really work on a dummy, in real fights you have to switch targets, decide whether the other targets will die before your DoTs on the boss will run out, or whether it will take a while, and whether the enemy is dangerous enough to apply your DoTs right away, or let them run out on the boss to get a little more DPS, or whether you have to do heavy attacks, because your healer was slacking and there was no ele drain on the boss for the past minute.
With dodge rolling you have to decide whether using those resources is better than using them on vigor, and whether you can actually afford to dodge, or it's better to block the attack, and you are not doing it every second anyways, because there is no point.
With movement, you have to decide whether to move, when to move, how to move etc. So even though you're using it all the time in any real fight, there are still decisions involved.
There is no other mechanic where you have to do it every second, regardless of what is going on. As such LA weaving is the equivalent of designing volume controls like this:
You wouldn't consider it "engaging gameplay" if you had to hold/press the Alt button every time you use a skill to make the skill do 30% more damage with literally no drawback, you would ask, why they don't make the skills just do 30% more damage, if everyone is holding that damn Alt button anyways. This is exactly the same as LA weaving. It just increases damage with literally no drawbacks.
I also can't think of any other AAA game where such pointless "mechanics" are involved, where if you're not doing it, you're doing it wrong, regardless of what's going on. In Tera your basic weapon attacks are on the same GCD as other skills (=good design in this regard), in WoW and Rift there are auto attacks (the lazy way to fix the tediousness of what LA weaving is, but still better, since it allows people to focus on the interesting parts, where they actually have to make decisions and not be a macro simulator themselves).
And even in shooters there is depth to when to press the mouse button, because if you just keep shooting wildly, you either run out of ammo, or alert your enemies about your presence without doing any damage, so there are decisions involved. There is no such mechanic in ESO. In combat you always press it every second, and if there is a situation when you must not, you must not do damage at all anyways.
There is absolutely no gameplay aspect of LA weaving that would not feel better if it was replaced by something else. It would add depth for example if it cost resources, because then you'd have to decide whether to do more damage, or keep doing damage for longer. It would also add depth if it was on the same GCD as skills, because then you would be able to decide whether to use a spammable or use a light attack depending on your resources. Or if light attacks were a part of some more complex combos consisting of multiple skills, but that's not the case.
TL;DR: it's just pointless and is bad design.1
This discussion has been closed.