mairwen85 wrote: »

Let me get this straight.

Light attack weaving means people macro > get rid of weaving

If weaving weren't a thing, would those using macros still use macros? Yes... why? because there would still be a need to rotate skills as closely in succession as now. Whereas now we 'punctuate' our skills with a light attack (a useful tock on your ticks), you'd instead have people macro-ing to get those skills as close to one another as possible seeing a rotations would be longer and more complex. People don't use macros because of weaving, they use macros just because they can or because they want to -- if they're justifying their actions now by stating it as a stance against weaving, or to help out new comers, or whatever, that's just BS. They simply can't do without. But that's another discussion.

Light attack weaving has negative impact on high latency players > get rid of weaving

I play on PC with 200ms-250ms and the occasional 400ms spike. I also play on Xbox with consistent 52ms ping (reported in dashboard). I can weave just fine on PC, input lag on console makes it harder, even with lower ping. Question is then rather is it the hardware, the user, or the latency where the problem lies? 300ms is 1/3 of a second, that's 1/3 of a GCD. you can press 3 buttons in that to send message upstream and receive response -- you only need to press 2, ergo even 500ms ping is enough to weave; you just have to slow down. The difference between a low latency player and a high latency one is the length of time they wait between button/key presses. Lower latency means you can click/press sooner, but have longer to wait before the GCD is over.

Light attack weaving increases dps > get rid of weaving

What? Free DPS, when sustain is so low? Ok... sounds like e-peen envy.

Light attack weaving makes people quit the game > get rid of weaving

Unfortunately this can only be supported by anecdotal evidence in the 3rd person.
'I know a guy who...'
'I have a friends who...'

At the same time, I know people, lol, who at first were against it, but once they learnt how, advocate and teach others how. I belong to this group also :wink

Light attack weaving causes server lag > get rid of weaving

There is to date no evidence to support this. If some appears, the validity of the statement can be scrutinised. Until then, its a moot point.

Light attack weaving looks ugly > get rid of weaving

I work with a few people I'd say the same about (some smell bad too). But my personal grievances have no place in a discussion about their place in in the workforce or society...

Light attack weaving requires no skill > get rid of weaving

And yet here we are at the nth discussion on this where people complain about either an inability to weave, or the many other excuses.

Aurelle1 wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Nyladreas wrote: »

Well intended or not I would still love a GCD on light and heavy attacks and made them more powerful but harder to aim at your target. That would be a an equal skillgap.

Not now when you have half of people using scripts and macros that automatically combine a skill use with weaving and anim cancel with a single button press.

And no, don't even try to convince me that macros aren't a thing or that they aren't reliable. I've seen them work myself and the actual apps with my own eyes. All you need is very basic programming knowledge.

Combine them with a mouse like razer Naga that has 12 buttons on the side and you can effectively use multiple macro setups, so the more complicated sequences won't limit you in unusable situations.

Macros for LA weaving are still widely used.
Mouses like logitech, razer that comes with a tool let you LA+skill.
Other addons (won't say the name) let you do more complicated stuff.
There are even someone who shared a script that works even if you don't have those mouses (just google "github LA weaving eso").

People say weaving helps making a gap between skilled and noobs, it doesn't...
It just gives an advantage to who afford expensive mouses with programmable buttons or good IT knowledge.

I don't like a game where people are classified and given unjustified advantage over others.
This is just a game after all....

You don't need macros or a fancy mouse to weave or cancel.

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Let me get this straight.

Light attack weaving means people macro > get rid of weaving

If weaving weren't a thing, would those using macros still use macros? Yes... why? because there would still be a need to rotate skills as closely in succession as now. Whereas now we 'punctuate' our skills with a light attack (a useful tock on your ticks), you'd instead have people macro-ing to get those skills as close to one another as possible seeing a rotations would be longer and more complex. People don't use macros because of weaving, they use macros just because they can or because they want to -- if they're justifying their actions now by stating it as a stance against weaving, or to help out new comers, or whatever, that's just BS. They simply can't do without. But that's another discussion.

Light attack weaving has negative impact on high latency players > get rid of weaving

I play on PC with 200ms-250ms and the occasional 400ms spike. I also play on Xbox with consistent 52ms ping (reported in dashboard). I can weave just fine on PC, input lag on console makes it harder, even with lower ping. Question is then rather is it the hardware, the user, or the latency where the problem lies? 300ms is 1/3 of a second, that's 1/3 of a GCD. you can press 3 buttons in that to send message upstream and receive response -- you only need to press 2, ergo even 500ms ping is enough to weave; you just have to slow down. The difference between a low latency player and a high latency one is the length of time they wait between button/key presses. Lower latency means you can click/press sooner, but have longer to wait before the GCD is over.

Light attack weaving increases dps > get rid of weaving

What? Free DPS, when sustain is so low? Ok... sounds like e-peen envy.

Light attack weaving makes people quit the game > get rid of weaving

Unfortunately this can only be supported by anecdotal evidence in the 3rd person.
'I know a guy who...'
'I have a friends who...'

At the same time, I know people, lol, who at first were against it, but once they learnt how, advocate and teach others how. I belong to this group also :wink

Light attack weaving causes server lag > get rid of weaving

There is to date no evidence to support this. If some appears, the validity of the statement can be scrutinised. Until then, its a moot point.

Light attack weaving looks ugly > get rid of weaving

I work with a few people I'd say the same about (some smell bad too). But my personal grievances have no place in a discussion about their place in in the workforce or society...

Light attack weaving requires no skill > get rid of weaving

And yet here we are at the nth discussion on this where people complain about either an inability to weave, or the many other excuses.

Its allow scripers to achive what i do with pressing 4 butons by pressin one.
Get rind of the macros, get rid of the scripters, then you may let a/c stay.
If you (zos) cant, then they should remove a/c from game.
Plenty of MMORPG have bigger player base without using A/C.
So "we will lose customers" cant be an excuse.

I didn't make that final argument. You're rebutting something that isn't put to you. I've listed the reasons against throughout this discussion (many of them yours), and responded to each individually. Throwing in a weird flex as a rebuke doesn't cut it.

Scripting can be done without animation cancelling. A macro is the automation of key presses. With or without animation cancelling cheaters are going to cheat. Let's say a rotation is 8 skills in sequence, a scripter can still macro 2 of those at a time, or 4 plus barswap. Animation cancelling has nothing to do with macros. It isn't the product of them, nor the driver for them. It is simply something that can be scripted because it exists and is scripted by some because you have people that feel the need to cheat.

Partly agree, and stil macros and scripts make animation canseling easy.
Its one thing to rotate skills by pressing buttons in corect order, its a compleatly diferent thing when you need to add a a/c to it.
Just lower skill animation and problem is solved.
No dps loss, easy to achieve from everyone, everyone happy.

mairwen85 wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Let me get this straight.

Light attack weaving means people macro > get rid of weaving

If weaving weren't a thing, would those using macros still use macros? Yes... why? because there would still be a need to rotate skills as closely in succession as now. Whereas now we 'punctuate' our skills with a light attack (a useful tock on your ticks), you'd instead have people macro-ing to get those skills as close to one another as possible seeing a rotations would be longer and more complex. People don't use macros because of weaving, they use macros just because they can or because they want to -- if they're justifying their actions now by stating it as a stance against weaving, or to help out new comers, or whatever, that's just BS. They simply can't do without. But that's another discussion.

Light attack weaving has negative impact on high latency players > get rid of weaving

I play on PC with 200ms-250ms and the occasional 400ms spike. I also play on Xbox with consistent 52ms ping (reported in dashboard). I can weave just fine on PC, input lag on console makes it harder, even with lower ping. Question is then rather is it the hardware, the user, or the latency where the problem lies? 300ms is 1/3 of a second, that's 1/3 of a GCD. you can press 3 buttons in that to send message upstream and receive response -- you only need to press 2, ergo even 500ms ping is enough to weave; you just have to slow down. The difference between a low latency player and a high latency one is the length of time they wait between button/key presses. Lower latency means you can click/press sooner, but have longer to wait before the GCD is over.

Light attack weaving increases dps > get rid of weaving

What? Free DPS, when sustain is so low? Ok... sounds like e-peen envy.

Light attack weaving makes people quit the game > get rid of weaving

Unfortunately this can only be supported by anecdotal evidence in the 3rd person.
'I know a guy who...'
'I have a friends who...'

At the same time, I know people, lol, who at first were against it, but once they learnt how, advocate and teach others how. I belong to this group also :wink

Light attack weaving causes server lag > get rid of weaving

There is to date no evidence to support this. If some appears, the validity of the statement can be scrutinised. Until then, its a moot point.

Light attack weaving looks ugly > get rid of weaving

I work with a few people I'd say the same about (some smell bad too). But my personal grievances have no place in a discussion about their place in in the workforce or society...

Light attack weaving requires no skill > get rid of weaving

And yet here we are at the nth discussion on this where people complain about either an inability to weave, or the many other excuses.

Its allow scripers to achive what i do with pressing 4 butons by pressin one.
Get rind of the macros, get rid of the scripters, then you may let a/c stay.
If you (zos) cant, then they should remove a/c from game.
Plenty of MMORPG have bigger player base without using A/C.
So "we will lose customers" cant be an excuse.

I didn't make that final argument. You're rebutting something that isn't put to you. I've listed the reasons against throughout this discussion (many of them yours), and responded to each individually. Throwing in a weird flex as a rebuke doesn't cut it.

Scripting can be done without animation cancelling. A macro is the automation of key presses. With or without animation cancelling cheaters are going to cheat. Let's say a rotation is 8 skills in sequence, a scripter can still macro 2 of those at a time, or 4 plus barswap. Animation cancelling has nothing to do with macros. It isn't the product of them, nor the driver for them. It is simply something that can be scripted because it exists and is scripted by some because you have people that feel the need to cheat.

Partly agree, and stil macros and scripts make animation canseling easy.
Its one thing to rotate skills by pressing buttons in corect order, its a compleatly diferent thing when you need to add a a/c to it.
Just lower skill animation and problem is solved.
No dps loss, easy to achieve from everyone, everyone happy.

Nothing is really added though. It is still just pressing buttons in sequence. Click > press | click > press -- nothing more to it. You're not adding a a/c, you're just clicking. On console it is literally just a button press: Trigger > skill button | Trigger > skill button. The only precision is timing and I personally use my trigger/click as the timer between skill presses. I can't see how that skill can be lowered any more. Just a click or finger on a trigger...

mairwen85 wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Let me get this straight.

Light attack weaving means people macro > get rid of weaving

If weaving weren't a thing, would those using macros still use macros? Yes... why? because there would still be a need to rotate skills as closely in succession as now. Whereas now we 'punctuate' our skills with a light attack (a useful tock on your ticks), you'd instead have people macro-ing to get those skills as close to one another as possible seeing a rotations would be longer and more complex. People don't use macros because of weaving, they use macros just because they can or because they want to -- if they're justifying their actions now by stating it as a stance against weaving, or to help out new comers, or whatever, that's just BS. They simply can't do without. But that's another discussion.

Light attack weaving has negative impact on high latency players > get rid of weaving

I play on PC with 200ms-250ms and the occasional 400ms spike. I also play on Xbox with consistent 52ms ping (reported in dashboard). I can weave just fine on PC, input lag on console makes it harder, even with lower ping. Question is then rather is it the hardware, the user, or the latency where the problem lies? 300ms is 1/3 of a second, that's 1/3 of a GCD. you can press 3 buttons in that to send message upstream and receive response -- you only need to press 2, ergo even 500ms ping is enough to weave; you just have to slow down. The difference between a low latency player and a high latency one is the length of time they wait between button/key presses. Lower latency means you can click/press sooner, but have longer to wait before the GCD is over.

Light attack weaving increases dps > get rid of weaving

What? Free DPS, when sustain is so low? Ok... sounds like e-peen envy.

Light attack weaving makes people quit the game > get rid of weaving

Unfortunately this can only be supported by anecdotal evidence in the 3rd person.
'I know a guy who...'
'I have a friends who...'

At the same time, I know people, lol, who at first were against it, but once they learnt how, advocate and teach others how. I belong to this group also :wink

Light attack weaving causes server lag > get rid of weaving

There is to date no evidence to support this. If some appears, the validity of the statement can be scrutinised. Until then, its a moot point.

Light attack weaving looks ugly > get rid of weaving

I work with a few people I'd say the same about (some smell bad too). But my personal grievances have no place in a discussion about their place in in the workforce or society...

Light attack weaving requires no skill > get rid of weaving

And yet here we are at the nth discussion on this where people complain about either an inability to weave, or the many other excuses.

Its allow scripers to achive what i do with pressing 4 butons by pressin one.
Get rind of the macros, get rid of the scripters, then you may let a/c stay.
If you (zos) cant, then they should remove a/c from game.
Plenty of MMORPG have bigger player base without using A/C.
So "we will lose customers" cant be an excuse.

I didn't make that final argument. You're rebutting something that isn't put to you. I've listed the reasons against throughout this discussion (many of them yours), and responded to each individually. Throwing in a weird flex as a rebuke doesn't cut it.

Scripting can be done without animation cancelling. A macro is the automation of key presses. With or without animation cancelling cheaters are going to cheat. Let's say a rotation is 8 skills in sequence, a scripter can still macro 2 of those at a time, or 4 plus barswap. Animation cancelling has nothing to do with macros. It isn't the product of them, nor the driver for them. It is simply something that can be scripted because it exists and is scripted by some because you have people that feel the need to cheat.

Partly agree, and stil macros and scripts make animation canseling easy.
Its one thing to rotate skills by pressing buttons in corect order, its a compleatly diferent thing when you need to add a a/c to it.
Just lower skill animation and problem is solved.
No dps loss, easy to achieve from everyone, everyone happy.

Nothing is really added though. It is still just pressing buttons in sequence. Click > press | click > press -- nothing more to it. You're not adding a a/c, you're just clicking. On console it is literally just a button press: Trigger > skill button | Trigger > skill button. The only precision is timing and I personally use my trigger/click as the timer between skill presses. I can't see how that skill can be lowered any more. Just a click or finger on a trigger...

It is added. The extra time/ click you need to achive the same thing.
You know EsO combat is fast-paced.

I'm not disputing the pace. As I said, the only precision (i.e. where the skill is) is in the timing. It takes a while to get to your sweet spot and I have no doubt that it is different on a per player basis. But, in the end, it is just a click. On PC you have two hands independently driving your game play -- that makes it even easier than doing it all with index finger and thumb on the same hand like we do on console. Fast pace or not.

Cadbury wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

I think you're 5 years late on this revelation. We all know the history.

I'll never forget Christmas 2016 playing trivial persuit when a question about Elton John's husband brought my 40 year old brother to the revelation that Elton John is gay.

Wait...

...

You play Trivial Pursuit? I haven't played since I lost most of the pie pieces

Nyladreas wrote: »

Okay, show me anyone on console that can even slightly replicate the top achieved DPS people have on PC.

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

This!!!

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.

Delparis wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.

Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.

Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.

Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }

At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block

I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration

Delparis wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.

Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.

Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.

Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }

At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block

I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration

Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.

Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.

it will if Skills and LA/HA/Swap/block and dodge roll will share the same GCD.

mairwen85 wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.

Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.

Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.

Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }

At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block

I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration

Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.

Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.

Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.

Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.

Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }

At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block

I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration

Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.

Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.

it will if Skills and LA/HA/Swap/block and dodge roll will share the same GCD.

OMG... really, so all on the same GCD... can you imagine. Please describe your vision for reactive play.

The combat is too fast atm so slowing things down should help increase the server performance.
If every single player is spamming LA-Skill-bash every 1 sec even NASA server won't be able to manage the load.

Dude, why don't you just play Candy Crush instead of trying to change ESO into a slow, turn-based game.

mairwen85 wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.

Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.

Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.

Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }

At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block

I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration

Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.

Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.

It will not get rid of all macros, but it will get rid of those that do LA weaving only, and that's probably 95% of all macros being used, since anything else has a drawback, while macroing LA weaving has literally 0 drawback. You want to ALWAYS use light attacks between skills when in combat, no matter the situation. That is not the case with block cancelling or dodge roll cancelling.

Interesting point. But the case remains the same, you would still have easily automated combat, and certain people will use that to their advantage; anyone who feels they cant play now unless they have a trusty macro to assist them, will have the same mentality if weaving were removed. I don't know how rife macros are, I'm not going to make any statement or pretence toward it, but I don't believe they are as reliable as human intuition when we consider the variable delays experienced in certain content. Lag differs from dungeon to dungeon, from trial to battleground -- can a macro intelligently determine the best 'wait' duration between key presses per scenario? Surely only a human could compensate for the fluctuation; so unless you have a stable, untouchable ping, I can't see macros being that widely used. I could be wrong on that of course, and it could be that macro users have multiple variations of the same scripts that they enable depending on the content they're doing at the time -- but that seems more effort than a simple button/click at the appropriate time.

ZeroXFF wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Nope. Without LA weaving timing becomes less important, because skills get queued up by the game itself. You could press the next skill prematurely, and it would go off when the cooldown from the previous one is over, giving you up to 2 GCDs time to think about the next skill without losing any pace. This doesn't work currently (unless you use scripts that mimic this functionality with light attacks) because skills have higher priority than light attacks, and light attacks get overridden in the queue if you try to go as fast as possible.

Light attacks, skills and defensive manoeuvres have independent cool downs. The light attacks operates on a separate cool-down to skills, same for block/dodge/bar swap -- there is a queue, but not in the way you describe it. Yes light attacks can be cancelled in full if you pull your skill too soon, but not because they are on the same 'rail'. Try to do as many light attacks in 1s as you can. Let me know the result.

Skills have higher priority than light attacks, this is true, that's what animation cancelling is -- the skills priority overrides the animation of the preceding light attack animation. Because Light attacks are instant cast, they fire off immediately, therefore the animation can be overridden. Same for dodge and block, and bar swap, they override the animation for skill preceding them, but they will cancel in full any non-instant cast ability.

Weaving >>> Light attack | Skill in cool down of light attack | { light attack in cool down of skill | skill in cool down of light attack }

At any point bar swap / dodge roll / block

I may tell you something you already know:
You can add a wait time after a skill to get the full GCD duration

Which is my previous point exactly. You can macro with weaving, and you can macro without.

Weaving is not the product nor the driver for macros. Removing animation cancelling will not get rid of macros.

It will not get rid of all macros, but it will get rid of those that do LA weaving only, and that's probably 95% of all macros being used, since anything else has a drawback, while macroing LA weaving has literally 0 drawback. You want to ALWAYS use light attacks between skills when in combat, no matter the situation. That is not the case with block cancelling or dodge roll cancelling.

Interesting point. But the case remains the same, you would still have easily automated combat, and certain people will use that to their advantage; anyone who feels they cant play now unless they have a trusty macro to assist them, will have the same mentality if weaving were removed. I don't know how rife macros are, I'm not going to make any statement or pretence toward it, but I don't believe they are as reliable as human intuition when we consider the variable delays experienced in certain content. Lag differs from dungeon to dungeon, from trial to battleground -- can a macro intelligently determine the best 'wait' duration between key presses per scenario? Surely only a human could compensate for the fluctuation; so unless you have a stable, untouchable ping, I can't see macros being that widely used. I could be wrong on that of course, and it could be that macro users have multiple variations of the same scripts that they enable depending on the content they're doing at the time -- but that seems more effort than a simple button/click at the appropriate time.

I know at least 5 people who (at least occasionally) use LA weaving macros, and only one who automates anything beyond that, and those who use the LA weaving macros are just as outraged about further automation as you are about all macros. That one guy will probably continue doing so, but the other 5 will stop.

Many of the people using the LA macros see it as a workaround for a bug in the game. This cannot be said about macroing an entire rotation, because every other design aspect of combat has a gameplay reason for existing, while LA weaving is just an unintuitive gimmick.