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The bashfest is real, hilariously pointless and in 2 months everything will be business as usual...
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peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Again, this is just the nature of the beast, it'll change, we'll adapt, it'll change, we'll adapt... This isn't new. Go searching for sustain nerf threads, you'll know what I'm talking about. The outcry then was even worse. Much worse in fact, considering people weren't so annoyed and tired just yet.
"Much worse in fact, considering people weren't so annoyed and tired just yet."
I believe that this is true. And should be concerning and a red flag here.
Yes, the cycle keeps going and there are always some people that stick around and adapt. But -- setting aside the fact that maybe every time patches drop there shouldn't be outcry-worthy changes for a large portion of the player base -- you're saying things will be fine but also that people are more tired and annoyed now than they were before. This means it's not business as usual. This means we are seeing a slow, steady stream of building frustration that's eroding the faith of the community. Things don't always go out with a bang... sometimes they slowly degrade and go out with a whimper.
Saying "things will be fine" and ignoring the warning signs won't help the game. (Nor will blind, illogical rants, so I'm with you there.)2 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »kringled_1 wrote: »Halcyon_blue wrote: »They buffed dots last patch by 50% ish... forum goes up in flames about a skill-less DOT meta.
They adjust dots a proportion back down again... forum goes up in flames about the "constant" nerfs.
This is why humans can't have nice things.
You say this like we're back where we were at Elsweyr launch. But Scalebreaker nerfed all ground AOE dots by 30-40%. And the proposed Dragonhold adjustment takes them down by another 30% or so, and then tacks on a 50% cost increase. (for the most part). There's nothing being substantially buffed that will compensate for that, so yes, people are looking at losing significant amounts of damage.
I'm almost willing to bet parses will be even higher than before, just because it would be hilarious.
Seriously though... You're thinking about a current meta that's being nerfed, but you forget that the game has so many other skills that people simply stopped using this time around in favor of more dots. They are called spammables... Hehe new rotations will come and DPS will be fine. I promise you. All it takes is replacing skills and getting new rotation, as per usual. How much of that 30-40% relative loss will be recovered, hard to say yet, but it will be close enough that it won't matter for most people. Remember... 5% loss for most people isn't even 1k damage... That's RNG range.... You can lose 1k DPS of you sneeze during a fight...
So all this only matters for the 35k+ people, where 5% is close to 2k DPS and that's already on appreciable range. And even here... Only against a dummy. On real world situations, maybe not so much of a difference either.
No... This isn't a good patch for DPS at all, but far from being terrible, even further from being what the forum dwellers seem to believe. Let's give it a week and see what comes...
@ZonasArch
You're "willing to bet parses will be even higher than before" ... based on what?
Can you tell me what DPS results you are seeing on various classes/builds on PTS v5.2.0?
Based on the fact that winning sick a bet would be hilarious, but if you read the rest of my comment, you'll see that I don't think that's very likely at all. Just the thought is amusing to me, and it has happened before in other updates where "oh no! Dpd is poop now!"and two weeks later, everyone is doing more damage.
Not sure it'll be the case now, but again... If it is, I'll be laughing so hard because of how silly all this end-of-the-world behavior feels to me. I just like irony humor.0 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Again, this is just the nature of the beast, it'll change, we'll adapt, it'll change, we'll adapt... This isn't new. Go searching for sustain nerf threads, you'll know what I'm talking about. The outcry then was even worse. Much worse in fact, considering people weren't so annoyed and tired just yet.
"Much worse in fact, considering people weren't so annoyed and tired just yet."
I believe that this is true. And should be concerning and a red flag here.
Yes, the cycle keeps going and there are always some people that stick around and adapt. But -- setting aside the fact that maybe every time patches drop there shouldn't be outcry-worthy changes for a large portion of the player base -- you're saying things will be fine but also that people are more tired and annoyed now than they were before. This means it's not business as usual. This means we are seeing a slow, steady stream of building frustration that's eroding the faith of the community. Things don't always go out with a bang... sometimes they slowly degrade and go out with a whimper.
Saying "things will be fine" and ignoring the warning signs won't help the game. (Nor will blind, illogical rants, so I'm with you there.)
Agreed. When I say business as usual, I mean the DPS race will keep going upwards, but I totally agree that the general feeling is always changing. We're getting jaded. Notice I'm not entirely happy or defending the changes, I'm merely against a senseless bashing.
Personally, I'll keep adapting if they keep giving me content to compensate. Or even a major bug fix/performance patch without any content, but I get why people could be upset enough to leave. The catch is keeping it civil so we get heard instead of ignored.0 -
Blinkin8r✭✭✭✭✭I'm fine switching up builds. It's fun. I enjoy finding new skill combos that do the most damage etc. But after a while it does get a little old. Imo if you're going to do big sweeping changes, better to do it once a year like they did in the past and not every update. I know a lot of players who aren't mad, they're just worn out and tired of it. You'd be amazed at how many people seem to have given up on the game on xbox na right now. Kinda sad.II Blinkin II
Xbox 1 NA
"A man without the sauce is lost, but the same man can become lost in the sauce."3 -
Drako_Ei✭✭✭✭✭Its not fine bro.
I lost my favourite endgame guild last patch.
From raiding everyday, to a dead guild in 1 day literally.0 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How odd. I hate the Scalebreaker changes a little more every day. The more I try to adjust to them, the less I enjoy gameplay and the less confidence I have in the gameplay team.
But that can’t be true, since you’ve plainly stated I’d be happy with my build by five days ago. I must be mistaken about my own experiences."A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle3 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Its not fine bro.
I lost my favourite endgame guild last patch.
From raiding everyday, to a dead guild in 1 day literally.
That was a really bad guild then... If by literally, you meant literally.
Bad why? Because one day isn't enough time for anyone to push through the changes. If you quit after one day of a patch, you're a lousy player, with no sense of companionship, no loyalty to each other and no skills whatsoever to overcome obstacles.
You're better off without them. Unless there's more to the story than what you said, then I dunno.3 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MasterSpatula wrote: »How odd. I hate the Scalebreaker changes a little more every day. The more I try to adjust to them, the less I enjoy gameplay and the less confidence I have in the gameplay team.
But that can’t be true, since you’ve plainly stated I’d be happy with my build by five days ago. I must be mistaken about my own experiences.
Then you'll probably enjoy dragon hold, since it's quite stupidly reverting back the meta dot. You good.1 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MasterSpatula wrote: »How odd. I hate the Scalebreaker changes a little more every day. The more I try to adjust to them, the less I enjoy gameplay and the less confidence I have in the gameplay team.
But that can’t be true, since you’ve plainly stated I’d be happy with my build by five days ago. I must be mistaken about my own experiences.
Then you'll probably enjoy dragon hold, since it's quite stupidly reverting back the meta dot. You good.
Yes, because I'm totally a person who thinks the only alternative to overpowered is underpowered.
And I'm definitely the kind of person who thinks that the best thing to follow up feeling like wet linguine is to be made to feel like wet angel hair.Edited by MasterSpatula on September 19, 2019 1:21AM"A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle3 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Someone was offended by my goat fight joke....
The bashfest ended when they “fixed” necromancer’s ulti.
I have a lot of respect for the creativity behind the game, it’s other aspects that disappoint me. It’s too many times in a row that they’ve “thrown darts” and come up with random things to change for the sake of change. I can’t stand quietly by because as soon as we do, someone will say “oh it’s too late to complain now you should have said something when the changes were announced”.
It’s always that.
“It’s too early to complain”
“It’s too late to complain”
#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom4 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Someone was offended by my goat fight joke....
The bashfest ended when they “fixed” necromancer’s ulti.
I have a lot of respect for the creativity behind the game, it’s other aspects that disappoint me. It’s too many times in a row that they’ve “thrown darts” and come up with random things to change for the sake of change. I can’t stand quietly by because as soon as we do, someone will say “oh it’s too late to complain now you should have said something when the changes were announced”.
It’s always that.
“It’s too early to complain”
“It’s too late to complain”
Goat fight was funny joke tho.0 -
Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Someone was offended by my goat fight joke....
The bashfest ended when they “fixed” necromancer’s ulti.
I have a lot of respect for the creativity behind the game, it’s other aspects that disappoint me. It’s too many times in a row that they’ve “thrown darts” and come up with random things to change for the sake of change. I can’t stand quietly by because as soon as we do, someone will say “oh it’s too late to complain now you should have said something when the changes were announced”.
It’s always that.
“It’s too early to complain”
“It’s too late to complain”
It kinda sorta is..."If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."0 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Someone was offended by my goat fight joke....
The bashfest ended when they “fixed” necromancer’s ulti.
I have a lot of respect for the creativity behind the game, it’s other aspects that disappoint me. It’s too many times in a row that they’ve “thrown darts” and come up with random things to change for the sake of change. I can’t stand quietly by because as soon as we do, someone will say “oh it’s too late to complain now you should have said something when the changes were announced”.
It’s always that.
“It’s too early to complain”
“It’s too late to complain”
It kinda sorta is...
Well yes, by the time let’s us “test” it on PTS they’ve all but made up their mind and carved it in stone. It’s always “too late to complain” with these people.Edited by max_only on September 19, 2019 3:36AM#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom3 -
Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Someone was offended by my goat fight joke....
The bashfest ended when they “fixed” necromancer’s ulti.
I have a lot of respect for the creativity behind the game, it’s other aspects that disappoint me. It’s too many times in a row that they’ve “thrown darts” and come up with random things to change for the sake of change. I can’t stand quietly by because as soon as we do, someone will say “oh it’s too late to complain now you should have said something when the changes were announced”.
It’s always that.
“It’s too early to complain”
“It’s too late to complain”
It kinda sorta is...
Well yes, by the time let’s us “test” it on PTS they’ve all but made up their mind and carved it in stone. It’s always ltoo late to complain” with these people.
Exactly. There's no use in fighting an unwinnable battle. You either accept it or move on."If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."1 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Halcyon_blue wrote: »One serves an actual purpose even if it gets tiresome to see, and the other...the other is just posts made by people looking to stir the pot.
At least the players expressing anger over the changes are providing ZOS feedback and driving discussion. If you dont like it, just dont go into those threads. Plenty of conversations going on that dont revolve around the patch notes.
Hang on, there is a significant distinction between quantitative, fact- and empirical-based feedback that provides insights that can be used for decision making and action....
And feedback that is just in essence an emotional outburst and desire to be validated along the lines of an echo chamber.
DPS has increased to over the top levels in the last year. That's not up for debate.
DPS overall *may* be reduced based on the PTS patch notes iteration 1.0 . That hasn't been tested sufficiently, current posts are using like for like builds... essentially being unable to factor a new meta alternative.
Raw DPS, other than for egoic purposes, serves no purpose though - it's counter-play (pvp) and trial clears/ achievement hurdles (pve) that does matter. And no one had yet given any compelling evidence on this.
So no, imho there's been no feedback that's been remotely helpful to this discussion yet. Ergo, stop with the histrionics please.
Jesus, you'd think someone trying so desperately to sound insightful and informed could be bothered to actually quote things properly.
In what way does this conversation change anything? In what way does it drive discussion besides the counter echo chamber of "yeah everyones always just freaking out!".
At least the people complaining and having "emotional outbursts", as if this rant of your own isnt on a level of an emotional outburst itself, are bringing attention to the changes happening. Changes that might go overlooked by the majority until the damage was done.
Feedback also, and let me put this so you can understand, does not need to be quantitative, fact-and empirical-based. As a customer and consumer, no one needs to have a chart of numbers to tell the company that they are unhappy with what they are seeing. I saw no where in the TOS or EULA stating that anyone had to put on a lab coat and go Bill Nyeing it up if they wanted to share their feelings or thoughts on anything they experience or expect to experience in this game.
Ill give you the same advice as I gave the OP. If you dont like the threads the OP is complaining about. Just avoid them. But they are still far more productive than these stir the pot threads that aim to do nothing besides rile people up over the feelings of other players.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax4 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Someone was offended by my goat fight joke....
The bashfest ended when they “fixed” necromancer’s ulti.
I have a lot of respect for the creativity behind the game, it’s other aspects that disappoint me. It’s too many times in a row that they’ve “thrown darts” and come up with random things to change for the sake of change. I can’t stand quietly by because as soon as we do, someone will say “oh it’s too late to complain now you should have said something when the changes were announced”.
It’s always that.
“It’s too early to complain”
“It’s too late to complain”
It kinda sorta is...
Well yes, by the time let’s us “test” it on PTS they’ve all but made up their mind and carved it in stone. It’s always “too late to complain” with these people.
Well, crazy thought, if it's never the right time to complain, you could try offering structured criticism.
I know I'm being a little snide here, but if you're thinking about it as complaining, it might just read as complaining, and that's going to be valued less than actually weighing in, and discussing the topic. Offering suggestions, and talking about the problem you see in the larger context.
All of those, "this needs to change or everyone will quit," threads are hyperbolic, and ZOS knows it.
Also, if someone's trying to shut you down from a meaningful conversation, don't let 'em. So long as you're contributing something meaningful.
Case in point, I don't know what you're talking about with the necro ult. I mean, I could guess, but you're not really fleshing out the idea at all, just saying, "they 'fixed' [it]."0 -
valerie✭✭Haha, I like the patch. After the wizard was nerfed to death on request of the PvP babies, you now get your own medicine.
Zenimax might want to start explaining their vision for the game before they go on and ruin the reputation of Elderscrolls. I'm definitely cured of ESO, but I'm beginning to doubt whether I should buy later Elderscrolls games (not online) as this is managed here.2 -
Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Haha, I like the patch. After the wizard was nerfed to death on request of the PvP babies, you now get your own medicine.
Zenimax might want to start explaining their vision for the game before they go on and ruin the reputation of Elderscrolls. I'm definitely cured of ESO, but I'm beginning to doubt whether I should buy later Elderscrolls games (not online) as this is managed here.
To be fair, TES 6 will be handled by Bethesda, not the ZOS side."If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rotaugen454 wrote: »Math begs to differ...
Having just spent an hour trying to sort out exactly how New Moon Acolyte's cost modifiers work, I'm pretty sure math has no power here.0 -
EmEm_Oh✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Just like literally every single update ever, even sustain nerf fest that came with Morrowind(I may be wrong in this one, but we all know the one I'm talking about).
I get you're sad and upset, but you're just making yourself look silly... A month after this hits live, everyone of you Meta chasers will be super happy again with your new builds, doing probably the same damage or close to what you have today.
Again, this has always been true, patch after patch, nerf after nerf, and still, power creep is a thing. It's not CP anymore, that's been frozen for a while, and yet, dos is going up, and up, and up... And I'm certain it'll be fine after this patch too.
Cry all you need to cry, it's good to let it out, it may even soften the changes on next pts cycles, but still... Changes will come, and we will eventually work around them. It's the nature of the beast... Not just ESO, any MMO ever. This isn't new, just weird and aggressive, but definitely nothing all that bad.
Have a good day and try to have some fun.
So your logic is that because people reacted badly to patches before, and it turned out OK, that it must be true again this patch?
That's ... irrational. You're just being contrary and not actually paying attention to what changed.
Wouldn't it be more irrational to assume it wouldn't? If it's worked out in the previous patches and turned out OK - why wouldn't it be rational to assume it would this time as well? It seems to me that is the very definition of rational behavior.
In any case: even if this patch is somehow disastrous for the game (which I severely doubt) the boy who cries wolf parable would aptly apply here. So you can't really blame anyone for taking the approach the OP has considering every previous update in memory has had exactly this kind of apocalyptic reaction. There is only so many times someone can cry wolf before people stop taking it seriously. And I believe we are well passed that point.
But as the author of this thread suggested - power creep is a real thing and it's not the end of the world for developers to take steps to address it. If they over step it they'll likely take steps to correct it - as they did with the recent DoT damage changes.
The rational approach is to analyze the changes, do tests, and make a determination as to where DPS is likely to land.
Assuming that "everything's gonna be OK" because that's what happened before isn't rational at all. That's called faith. Faith isn't rational.
There are always two totally useless and opposite forum warrior forces in ESO PTS cycles. The "sky is falling" crowd and the "you guys are overreacting crowd", and the one thing they have in common is that they're not actually on the PTS testing anything; they're just arguing based on some philosophical position they have on the state of the game.
Usually you've got a compensating force in the middle ... the people who are actually testing stuff. However, this time, I think those people are going to be over on the "sky is falling" side of the line more often than not. And I say that because across many hours of testing on PTS on multiple classes, I'm seeing a very large DPS loss no matter how I adjust. In most cases (on stam) about 25%. I'm sure that will creep up a bit more but I don't see much room to close the gap between the 100k+ DPS most builds were doing in U22/U23 and the ~80k DPS I'm seeing a lot of people hit right now.
Whether or people are ignoring the boy who cried wolf, I don't really care. Any forum-goer with two brain cells to rub together can easily differentiate between people who are just crying about patch notes and people who have actually been on PTS and are seeing results that are genuinely concerning.
What's the point of a PTS if you're changing up your build every other week. I say drop the PTS and spread the resources where players have been asking for it.
The way I theory craft? I log onto the NA server and play in cyro and pve.
The PTS was designed for builds that would last a while...not just a few weeks.1 -
x48rph✭✭✭✭✭
✭The same people who were crying for game being too easy are crying now for being too difficult. You wanted nerfs, here you go. Smart ones will adapt while cry babies will keep crying. Devs should stop reading forum and don't listen to hypocrites. They should get a free hand instead to complete rebalancing and stick to their true vision of the game.
Except of course that they have no true vision, especially the current combat team as evidenced by the constant flip flopping on every thing. One patch something's under performing so it gets buffed , then all of a sudden next patch oh no, it's over performing and gets nerfed so hard it does less than it originally did , back when it was supposedly under performing. If they actually had a vision and a direction, by now we would see a lot less massive shifts in the numbers and people wouldn't be so pissed.1 -
xeNNNNN✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just like literally every single update ever, even sustain nerf fest that came with Morrowind(I may be wrong in this one, but we all know the one I'm talking about).
I get you're sad and upset, but you're just making yourself look silly... A month after this hits live, everyone of you Meta chasers will be super happy again with your new builds, doing probably the same damage or close to what you have today.
Again, this has always been true, patch after patch, nerf after nerf, and still, power creep is a thing. It's not CP anymore, that's been frozen for a while, and yet, dos is going up, and up, and up... And I'm certain it'll be fine after this patch too.
Cry all you need to cry, it's good to let it out, it may even soften the changes on next pts cycles, but still... Changes will come, and we will eventually work around them. It's the nature of the beast... Not just ESO, any MMO ever. This isn't new, just weird and aggressive, but definitely nothing all that bad.
Have a good day and try to have some fun.
Try being a mag dk main in PvP and tell me everything will be fine in 2 months if these changes go through we've lost a huge chunk of our damage. We're just tanks now. its ***.Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.0 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Just like literally every single update ever, even sustain nerf fest that came with Morrowind(I may be wrong in this one, but we all know the one I'm talking about).
I get you're sad and upset, but you're just making yourself look silly... A month after this hits live, everyone of you Meta chasers will be super happy again with your new builds, doing probably the same damage or close to what you have today.
Again, this has always been true, patch after patch, nerf after nerf, and still, power creep is a thing. It's not CP anymore, that's been frozen for a while, and yet, dos is going up, and up, and up... And I'm certain it'll be fine after this patch too.
Cry all you need to cry, it's good to let it out, it may even soften the changes on next pts cycles, but still... Changes will come, and we will eventually work around them. It's the nature of the beast... Not just ESO, any MMO ever. This isn't new, just weird and aggressive, but definitely nothing all that bad.
Have a good day and try to have some fun.
Try being a mag dk main in PvP and tell me everything will be fine in 2 months if these changes go through we've lost a huge chunk of our damage. We're just tanks now. its ***.
A huge chunk of the damage with your current build, that's dot based, can't forget to add this part. Can't ever hope to use the same meta build now, I'll give you that, but I'm sure you have a crap ton of other skills at your disposal that will push some decent damage still.
Last update, destructive reach was the one that killed half the effectiveness of my healer/tank PvP build. Lost CC or lost damage. For a good pair of weeks I was looking for new things to do (there were other minor changes) until I had an idea and got my build to work fine again. Cost me a new gold staff, transmuting another, leveling up a new skill... But it got fixed. Why? Because I didn't mind changing my bar and adapting. You just gotta do the same and hopefully you'll be fine. Current meta will suck HARD but there's always something else they'll eventually have to nerf... That's up to you to find out, I don't play dk for damage, just for Pve tanking.0 -
Oakmontowls_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭GlorphNoldorin wrote: »A roughly 50-60% decrease in damage with cost increase for a major damage type....... not sure there has been anything like this in the past
Ergo can’t base past on present
Decrease in dots, not damage. That's why people should calm down a bit. and even then, it's 30% or so, maybe 40, compared same builds. New builds will do more damage and that's what "adapt" means. It sucks, I agree, but saying it's 50% damage nerf as in "I'm only doing half damage now" is straight false.
And yes, I'm saying, without any doubt whatsoever, it'll all be fine and fun again a few weeks after this goes live, and "power creep" will become the word of the day again. You can print this.
Again, this is just the nature of the beast, it'll change, we'll adapt, it'll change, we'll adapt... This isn't new. Go searching for sustain nerf threads, you'll know what I'm talking about. The outcry then was even worse. Much worse in fact, considering people weren't so annoyed and tired just yet.
60% nerf to AoE DoTs.0
