Maintenance for the week of April 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
vFV HM with no heal
Delparis
✭✭✭✭✭
one of my guild group managed to pass vFV HM with 1DK tank, 2 StamNECRO and 1 StamSorc.
All DDs and tank were using vigor to self heal.
No Heal required for one of the most difficult dungeon in the game.
Something is going wrong in this game.
Edited by Delparis on September 16, 2019 12:51PM All DDs and tank were using vigor to self heal.
No Heal required for one of the most difficult dungeon in the game.
Something is going wrong in this game.
3
-
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The game is balanced around a certain skill level. Players at that skill level will typically require a standard group of 2 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank. Players below that level will struggle to even complete and players above that level will have more flexibility in group composition. If you balance the content such that even the top tier elites need a specific group composition in a game that allows for a wide variety of role variation, you will get extremely difficult content that none but the elite can even dream of completing.
Just because someone can do it, doesn't mean it's typical, normal or expected. Never balance the majority of your content for elites or you'll have a game that will only be interesting for that category of players.10 -
WuffyCerulei✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Isn’t vMoS HM the hardest? To be fair, I haven’t done vFV HM yet, but I know vMoS HM is extremely intensive heals. I also believe all 3 dps and the tank are pretty experienced. Experienced pvers will have a million times easier time in those HMs with no healet than a good chunk of of the pve community. Nothing to do with HeAlErS aReN’t NeEdEd. Just your group doesn’t need a healer."Buzz Lightyear toy isle shot" Stormcalling/Animal Companions/Assassination PVP build hater
Bring Back Pure Class Build Power1 -
Dragonnord✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭one of my guild group managed to pass vFV HM with 1DK tank, 2 StamNECRO and 1 StamSorc.
All DDs and tank were using vigor to self heal.
No Heal required for one of the most difficult dungeon in the game.
Something is going wrong in this game.
Just because 1 group, 10 or 20 groups do it, doesn't mean other thousands, and thousands, and thousands of groups can too.
Edited by Dragonnord on September 16, 2019 6:53PM3 -
TheGreatBlackBear✭✭✭✭✭
✭WuffyCerulei wrote: »Isn’t vMoS HM the hardest? To be fair, I haven’t done vFV HM yet, but I know vMoS HM is extremely intensive heals. I also believe all 3 dps and the tank are pretty experienced. Experienced pvers will have a million times easier time in those HMs with no healet than a good chunk of of the pve community. Nothing to do with HeAlErS aReN’t NeEdEd. Just your group doesn’t need a healer.
Vmos used to be hard when it came out. Hircine's Champion used to be a big flex but it got nerfed so hard.0 -
Delparis✭✭✭✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »The game is balanced around a certain skill level. Players at that skill level will typically require a standard group of 2 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank. Players below that level will struggle to even complete and players above that level will have more flexibility in group composition. If you balance the content such that even the top tier elites need a specific group composition in a game that allows for a wide variety of role variation, you will get extremely difficult content that none but the elite can even dream of completing.
Just because someone can do it, doesn't mean it's typical, normal or expected. Never balance the majority of your content for elites or you'll have a game that will only be interesting for that category of players.
Don't you think that the best DDs and tank should need the best healers too to pass the most difficult content?
why ESO is the only mmorpg that got this kinda of weird mechanic?1 -
GusTheWizard✭✭✭✭Congratulations to them, if it’s possible for them more power to em. That is probably a very coordinated group of friends who know the HM well, Just because that group can do it doesn’t mean any group can
I’m a healer main and I don’t have a problem finding a group for dungeons or hard modes. I did HM FL back when it came out with three dps and one tank, it wasn’t because the group wanted me to dps it was because I wanted to, I’m sure if I wanted to heal they would’ve been fine with that to.
Find yourself a group of friends that will let you do your role and be okay with it,
A lot of the HM dungeons are about coordination and talking with your group
It’s not just about having high dps.1 -
Elwendryll✭✭✭✭✭
✭WuffyCerulei wrote: »Isn’t vMoS HM the hardest? To be fair, I haven’t done vFV HM yet, but I know vMoS HM is extremely intensive heals. I also believe all 3 dps and the tank are pretty experienced. Experienced pvers will have a million times easier time in those HMs with no healet than a good chunk of of the pve community. Nothing to do with HeAlErS aReN’t NeEdEd. Just your group doesn’t need a healer.
March of Sacrifice? We did HM and speedrun separately without healer. You don't need much healing if any, if you deal correctly with mechanics you don't take much damage. Both me (as stam DD) and my Tank guildy can solo the hunt phase and get the rest of the team up after that, we practiced for several hours, yes, but still, it's all in mechanics.
I also think that healers are important, but, out of trials, unless there is a specific unavoidable heal check, they're here to fix your mistakes, if you don't make any, you may as well go without one because one extra DD will often bring more DPS than the healer's support. DDs and Tank have enough survivability tools by themselves anyway.Edited by Elwendryll on September 16, 2019 2:22PMPC - EU - France - AD
Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
Guildmaster of Oriflamme: Focus on 4 player endgame content.
Member of Brave Cat Trade, Panda Division and Toadhuggers.
All 4-man trifectas - TTT, IR, GH2 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »The game is balanced around a certain skill level. Players at that skill level will typically require a standard group of 2 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank. Players below that level will struggle to even complete and players above that level will have more flexibility in group composition. If you balance the content such that even the top tier elites need a specific group composition in a game that allows for a wide variety of role variation, you will get extremely difficult content that none but the elite can even dream of completing.
Just because someone can do it, doesn't mean it's typical, normal or expected. Never balance the majority of your content for elites or you'll have a game that will only be interesting for that category of players.
Don't you think that the best DDs and tank should need the best healers too to pass the most difficult content?
why ESO is the only mmorpg that got this kinda of weird mechanic?
The best DDs and tanks don't need a healer. They stay out of the red, mitigate damage and do have some self heals included. That's part of being the best. Honestly, the best things a healer brings to the group are buffs and debuffs. For experienced groups, a healer likely does minimal actual healing in 4 man content. Those buffs and debuffs become much more potent when you are in larger groups such as trials. The amount of extra damage that combat prayer brings is too good to ignore at that point. In a 4 man group with one slot taken up by a tank, healer buffs like combat prayer are hitting 2 or maybe 2.5 dps (if the healer deals some damage as well) compared to buffing 8 - 10 players in a trial. Why bring a healer to buff 2 players when you can just bring another damage dealer instead. Mathematically, you probably do more damage with that extra DD instead.1 -
Delparis✭✭✭✭✭The problem maybe related to how good DK is as tanking that it doesn't need any heal to get the work done.
For example tamplar tank do heavely rely on a heal for DLC HM content. DK got many skills to self heal + major mending.0 -
gatekeeper13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If the game's content can be completed by ignoring the game's rules on what roles should compose a group (auto-grouping is 2 DDs, 1 Tank, 1 healer), then in my opinion it means the game is not balanced correctly. It would be better if the game's dungeons were impossible to complete without all roles present. Not saying that Fungal Grotto shouldnt be able to complete with DD's only. But to complete FV HM or FL HM without healer? This means there is an issue with dungeon design. I think the root of the problem is that a very high dps ends bosses before they become dangerous.The problem maybe related to how good DK is as tanking that it doesn't need any heal to get the work done.
For example tamplar tank do heavely rely on a heal for DLC HM content. DK got many skills to self heal + major mending.
I second that. I am a Templar Tank who uses group support sets (Ebon+Torug mostly) and if I lose health, I have to rely heavily on a healer to get it back, since my class contains zero health sustain skills or passives. And Templar self-heals are pretty costly on magicka. DK is a very gifted class for tanking with passives and skills that makes dying pretty hard.0 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This is a skewed argument.
Fang Lair hard mode is a prime example of random one-shot mechanics.
Colossus heavy attacks? No healer will save you.
Orryn's skulls? Two or three hits will kill you, healer or not. A healer will maybe delay your death by a second. If you're lucky.
Ghosts? No healer can do anything about it.
Ghosts again? No healer will save you.
Poison spit? Run into that circle, no damage. Don't run into that circle, death. Healer not involved.
Fang Lair hard mode is hard because it requires coordination and a certain amount of luck.
It's not hard because you'll eat damage all the time.
I would love if healers had a bigger role in dungeons.
Just crying "nerf Vigor" because of Fang Lair is a very ... non-intelligent way of not achieving that.
3 -
gatekeeper13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Varana, that's bad design that leaves gap to make healer worthless. Mechanics should ve been designed in such way that a healer would be necessary to complete and impossible to complete without him.
I never play as a healer, btw.0 -
GusTheWizard✭✭✭✭gatekeeper13 wrote: »If the game's content can be completed by ignoring the game's rules on what roles should compose a group (auto-grouping is 2 DDs, 1 Tank, 1 healer), then in my opinion it means the game is not balanced correctly. It would be better if the game's dungeons were impossible to complete without all roles present. Not saying that Fungal Grotto shouldnt be able to complete with DD's only. But to complete FV HM or FL HM without healer? This means there is an issue with dungeon design. I think the root of the problem is that a very high dps ends bosses before they become dangerous.
It’s not so much that out damaging the bosses is easy, it’s Zos’s need to balance pve and pvp the same so every class can heal themselves quite easily without a healer because of pvp.
They should make dungeons have some mechanics to where if you’re doing X amount of damage you have a heal debuff applied to you.Edited by GusTheWizard on September 16, 2019 4:17PM0 -
gatekeeper13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@GusTheWizard, either that or make certain skills not available in dungeons or available only in pvp. If there are skills that provide such a strong healing, the role of the healer becomes pointless.Edited by gatekeeper13 on September 16, 2019 4:22PM1 -
GusTheWizard✭✭✭✭Fang Lair hard mode is hard because it requires coordination and a certain amount of luck.
It's not hard because you'll eat damage all the time.
I would love if healers had a bigger role in dungeons.
Just crying "nerf Vigor" because of Fang Lair is a very ... non-intelligent way of not achieving that.
The OP is Talking about Frostvault, I’m the one who said Fang Lair.Edited by GusTheWizard on September 16, 2019 4:33PM0 -
Casul✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have gotten amberplasm and dreadhorn shaman as my only achievements currently. In both we ran 1 tank 3 dps, we all had barrier.PvP needs more love.0 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And your point is...?
Yes, this is possible. It's always been possible ever since Frostvault first hit PTS. So what? The question that needs to be asked isn't, "Is it possible?". The relevant question is, "Is it easier with or without a healer?" Having done HM with and without a healer, I think it is easier with.
Also, if the difficulty was tuned such that the best groups cannot do this, then it would be too difficult for mainstream players.Edited by code65536 on September 16, 2019 5:46PMNightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorPC/Console Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Group Buff PanelsOther Add-Ons: Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information2 -
Nordic__Knights✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dame people crying because of group set ups lol why should we be told you have to have x , y and z to do this why cant we say ok we need x,y and no z because we want to be better at x without the aid of z
I mean I'm sure if four healer got together in a group and decided to go do it no one would cry healing is to strong it takes no dps just 4 healers to do vet hm lolEdited by Nordic__Knights on September 16, 2019 6:26PM0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I cannot think of a single 4 man that Requires a healer if the players are actually good.
Knowledge of mechanics is huge, then minor self heals with lots o damage.
But healers are more like buffers anyway, and should be increasing dps via buffs and only minor healing0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And your point is...?
Yes, this is possible. It's always been possible ever since Frostvault first hit PTS. So what? The question that needs to be asked isn't, "Is it possible?". The relevant question is, "Is it easier with or without a healer?" Having done HM with and without a healer, I think it is easier with.
Also, if the difficulty was tuned such that the best groups cannot do this, then it would be too difficult for mainstream players.
His point is that he wants to nerf vigor, DK healing and overall stamina healing.0 -
Fang_of_Lorkhaj✭✭✭✭Pfft. Who uses a healer anymore? 1 tank 3 dd meta m8. If this is suprising to you then I guess you have what we call.... wait for it.........
L2P issue.0 -
Aalahk✭✭✭Isn't this just another post on the same theme as many of your other threads, such as:
- with the upcoming nerfs to dots, vigor should be nerfed too
- Vigor is too OP
- Healing ward is too OP
- why no one is talking how OP shuffle is? (if they used shuffle, of course)
You seem to think everything is OP, needs nerfed or absolutely sucks. Chill out, man.1
