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How to make PvP more friendly and inviting to PvErs?
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TheRealPotoroo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »PvE players hate pvp because they intuitively feel like they’re playing at a disadvantage... and they are.
When I switched from pve to pvp in this game I didn’t have all impen and just got destroyed repeatedly. It takes a long long long time to get the transmutation stones to retract gear in pve. It’s faster in pvp but by the time your average player has the stones they’re sick of it.
The only reason I kept playing pvp was because I have a pvp background. I can guarantee you most would have given up.
You dont have to use transmute crystals just to start PVP, especially if the person has been playing PVE for a while. There are lots of viable craftable and overland sets that already come in impen that's very easy to get...
Can someone who is new to PvP reeeally expect to do well with 3x agility jewels, an asylum greatsword and a crafted set though?TheRealPotoroo wrote: »iamkeebler wrote: »I also said “or go in on a low populated campaign with friends” - fun is in the eye of the beholder. I just think it’s sad that people write off enjoying/trying/experiencing the PvP aspects to the game. I know it isn’t for everyone, but it is an aspect of the game that folks are missing out on and then come to the forums to complain about how they “need” a PvE version of it instead of playing through the content as intended by the developers.
The developers tried to blend oil and water. The developers were wrong. But that's a different complaint. This thread is about how to "make PvP more inviting and friendly for PvErs." Thus far we have:
PVEers: we find these elements of PVP especially toxic/problematic
PVPers: oh no, you can't touch that!
Imagine putting virtually l no time into a game mode while other people put time and effort into it. You then go in and decide you dont like it and it needs to all be changed. Then when the people that have experience there tell you just need to put in time and effort to understand how everything works you tell them no that's toxic and problematic.
The developers weren't wrong, there's demand for pvp and it makes sense in the story setting. Just look at WoW, they have PvPE servers where you could engage in pvp anywhere. Guilds would set up raids to opposing cities and lowbie zones and that was part of the fun. It gave all the zones a lot of life because at anytime an entire pve town could be under attack.
The developers were completely wrong to mix PVE and PVP, which is why hardly anybody does it outside special events like IC. But anyway, as usual you're off answering your own questions with nary a thought for the question at hand or what has been sincerely and thoughtfully put forward to address it. The only one going on and on and on and on about PVErs supposedly not wanting to put any effort in to come to grips with PVP is you.PC NA, PC EU
"Instead of taking the best of the dolmens (predictable rotation), the best of the geysers (scalability based on number of players), and the best of the dragons (map location and health indicators) and adding them together to make a fun and dynamic world event scenario, they gave us....... harrowstorms." https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6850523/#Comment_68505235 -
Uryel✭✭✭✭✭
✭InvictusApollo wrote: »Every time there is a PvP event that is supposed to attract PvErs to PvP, we get an outcry from PvErs that they don't like being killed in PvP. Some person even got "traumatized"...
But I'm not here to tell people how to man up.
I've created this thread so that people - all people: both PvPers and PvErs could post their ideas on how to make PvP more inviting and friendly for PvErs. I'll post my idea in a seperate thread.
Sometimes, the only winning move is to not play the game. The only way to make PvP more friendly to PvE players is to not play PvP.3 -
Malmai✭✭✭✭✭
✭InvictusApollo wrote: »Every time there is a PvP event that is supposed to attract PvErs to PvP, we get an outcry from PvErs that they don't like being killed in PvP. Some person even got "traumatized"...
But I'm not here to tell people how to man up.
I've created this thread so that people - all people: both PvPers and PvErs could post their ideas on how to make PvP more inviting and friendly for PvErs. I'll post my idea in a seperate thread.
Remove PvP its lagged anyways 20 fps with 2019 computer build is rofl.1 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Even with what I proposed with the Impen change, you would still need to farm the proper PvP sets to be able to play at a competitive level.Fur_like_snow wrote: »Impen is the defacto PvP trait. To think you could enter a PvP zone without it is a recipe for disaster. It’s not unreasonable to farm multiple sets of gear for different content.
Remember, this is about how could ZOS make things more beginner-friendly, not about how to overhaul the current meta at a high skill level... except for possibly making options other than Impen actually viable in PvP.
That's not even a valid argument.Rave the Histborn wrote: »There are exploiters in every game though so your point doesn't really stand though.
Let me rephrase this nonsense you just spouted, in terms of a real-life example:
Police officer: "You have exceeded the speed limit. You must pay the fine."
Driver: "But everyone else was also speeding!"
Hate to break it to you, but it does not work that way
In any case though, since you have been defending the exploit and the exploiters so valiantly, at this point I'm no longer sure if you're actually that naive, or just trolling.
What I am certain about, however, is that you are a morally bankrupt person, and as such I see no more reason to waste any more time on trying to reason with you.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Hate to break it too you but your selective cherry picking of my quotes shows you as a morally bankrupt person. XD XD XD
You dont get to label everything an exploit because you dont like it and no exploiting in a game doesn't make it right but saying everyone is exploiting is a lie so you can keep up your narrative. You dont have much experience in pvp and it's pretty obvious. You call any work around technicalities and are overall opposed to anyone taking responsibilities for themselves and instead just want to focus on other players. If you had spend time in pvp you would know this is how the game works.
You bowed out because your argument is wrong and the best you can do is attack my character. The forums doesn't need you.0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭
HAHAHAHAHARave the Histborn wrote: »There are exploiters in every game though so your point doesn't really stand though. This also isn't an exploit as it has been part of IC since launch, as much as you keep trying to paint it as such. (...) If it was an exploit it would have been changed, it isnt, end of story.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Because we all know that ZOS is very quick about fixing all bugs and exploits in their game
Thank you, this really made my day just now
Lol it's been 5 years. You can keep lying to yourself all you want. I'm running daily groups in IC to help people get tel var. You're on the forums giving every reason under the sun not to go into IC. At this point it looks like your total pvp experience is....actually non existant0 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »
I'm avoiding the event because I don't care about the rewards and it's a complete waste of my time.Rave the Histborn wrote: »You on the other hand don't have a tune, you say you love Cyro and you hate IC, then you're going to wait to do the quest lines if it gets done, then you've actually got about a hundred hours in IC from when it was part of Cyro and a few hours in the new campaign. You know all about the event and what people are going through with sewer platforms but you're avoiding this event at the same time.
True, I've only visited IC quite sporadically during this event (as I outlined earlier) - but loadscreen camping of players is nothing new, and the exact same thing was happening during the 5th anniversary event, which I did participate in during the PvP week.
We're getting increasingly off track here, so let's bring things back in line:
The OP's point was how PvP can be made more friendly to newcomers.
My point is that when a new player goes through the sewer door and loads in dead on the opposite side, that sends a very specific kind of message.
The exact kind of message that you do NOT want to be sending to new PvPers, if you want to encourage them to stay and enjoy actual PvP.
Your point that there are alternate paths through the districts is technically valid, but not relevant to the discussion.
The fact remains, that there are exploiters who are engaging in a form of behavior which is extremely destructive to ESO's PvP community in the long term.
And the fact that you are effectively defending the exploiters by trying to handwave the problem away and claiming that "hurr durr it's legit PvP", makes me begin to wonder if you are not actually one of those players.
Heres the thing. If your hypothetical person loads into pvp and dies that is part of the game. It is very very rare for this to happen on a loadscreen outside of this event and if this is something preventing people from joing pvp well they never wanted to pvp in the first place. Death is part of pvp and if dying is going to put you off you shouldn't even bother joining.
It is very much the message you want to be sending people though. You are in a warzone and war is cruel and you are going to die. You need to to think for yourself and be prepared. This isn't pve, the path isnt provided for you, you're going to need to do it on your own. If you're getting ganked going through doors buff up before so if you get attacked you have a chance to fight back.
My point isn't technically valid it is 100% valid and relevant. None of these players need to go through the sewer entrance and if you keep going out and getting farmed it is your fault. There's 8 ways out of the sewers. If you can't figure out how to not get farmed by using a different door then I'm not sure how to help.
There are exploiters in every game though so your point doesn't really stand though. This also isn't an exploit as it has been part of IC since launch, as much as you keep trying to paint it as such. If it was it would be fixed or there would have been an instakill like every other spawn not meant to be accessed. If you choose to LA spam down and someone Dragon Leaps up, not sure what to tell you, that's part of the game and you just gave that player access to the base. It's called taking responsibility.
I'm sorry but you dont just get to label everyone as an exploiter to fit your narrative. If it was an exploit it would have been changed, it isnt, end of story.
Lol I was on White Gold the other night helping people kill 2 griefing NBs that kept dual spamming meteors once you left base spawn. 4 or 5 deaths later and I find them in a different room stealthing (did you know you can find NBs in stealth without detection? Stealth up and use the eye you get. It won't knock them out of stealth but it will be completely open when you're right next to them. You can then spam an aoe and knock them out of stealth) and we fight and I killed them.
PVP is about learning from your mistakes, adapting, and surviving. There is no incentive beyond personal incentive. If you die and it turns you off from a zone completely I get it but you dont go suddenly change that entire zone around for 1% of the population that vocally hate it already.
You don't seem to understand a very important thing: it's not dying that turns off people from PvP. That's acceptable. But if you are slaughtered repeatedly without any chance to fight or even to land a hit against your opponent... that can remove people forever from PvP. You can't learn anything about PvP if you are waiting in a loading screen and then return to be a ghost. More precisely you will learn one thing: "it's pointless time-wasting, I'm better to do anything else".9 -
Milchbart✭✭✭✭Make a Cyrodiil pure PVE campaign just for the quests.
Same with Imperial City. Give us a pure PVE IC campaign.
3 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
I'm avoiding the event because I don't care about the rewards and it's a complete waste of my time.Rave the Histborn wrote: »You on the other hand don't have a tune, you say you love Cyro and you hate IC, then you're going to wait to do the quest lines if it gets done, then you've actually got about a hundred hours in IC from when it was part of Cyro and a few hours in the new campaign. You know all about the event and what people are going through with sewer platforms but you're avoiding this event at the same time.
True, I've only visited IC quite sporadically during this event (as I outlined earlier) - but loadscreen camping of players is nothing new, and the exact same thing was happening during the 5th anniversary event, which I did participate in during the PvP week.
We're getting increasingly off track here, so let's bring things back in line:
The OP's point was how PvP can be made more friendly to newcomers.
My point is that when a new player goes through the sewer door and loads in dead on the opposite side, that sends a very specific kind of message.
The exact kind of message that you do NOT want to be sending to new PvPers, if you want to encourage them to stay and enjoy actual PvP.
Your point that there are alternate paths through the districts is technically valid, but not relevant to the discussion.
The fact remains, that there are exploiters who are engaging in a form of behavior which is extremely destructive to ESO's PvP community in the long term.
And the fact that you are effectively defending the exploiters by trying to handwave the problem away and claiming that "hurr durr it's legit PvP", makes me begin to wonder if you are not actually one of those players.
Heres the thing. If your hypothetical person loads into pvp and dies that is part of the game. It is very very rare for this to happen on a loadscreen outside of this event and if this is something preventing people from joing pvp well they never wanted to pvp in the first place. Death is part of pvp and if dying is going to put you off you shouldn't even bother joining.
It is very much the message you want to be sending people though. You are in a warzone and war is cruel and you are going to die. You need to to think for yourself and be prepared. This isn't pve, the path isnt provided for you, you're going to need to do it on your own. If you're getting ganked going through doors buff up before so if you get attacked you have a chance to fight back.
My point isn't technically valid it is 100% valid and relevant. None of these players need to go through the sewer entrance and if you keep going out and getting farmed it is your fault. There's 8 ways out of the sewers. If you can't figure out how to not get farmed by using a different door then I'm not sure how to help.
There are exploiters in every game though so your point doesn't really stand though. This also isn't an exploit as it has been part of IC since launch, as much as you keep trying to paint it as such. If it was it would be fixed or there would have been an instakill like every other spawn not meant to be accessed. If you choose to LA spam down and someone Dragon Leaps up, not sure what to tell you, that's part of the game and you just gave that player access to the base. It's called taking responsibility.
I'm sorry but you dont just get to label everyone as an exploiter to fit your narrative. If it was an exploit it would have been changed, it isnt, end of story.
Lol I was on White Gold the other night helping people kill 2 griefing NBs that kept dual spamming meteors once you left base spawn. 4 or 5 deaths later and I find them in a different room stealthing (did you know you can find NBs in stealth without detection? Stealth up and use the eye you get. It won't knock them out of stealth but it will be completely open when you're right next to them. You can then spam an aoe and knock them out of stealth) and we fight and I killed them.
PVP is about learning from your mistakes, adapting, and surviving. There is no incentive beyond personal incentive. If you die and it turns you off from a zone completely I get it but you dont go suddenly change that entire zone around for 1% of the population that vocally hate it already.
You don't seem to understand a very important thing: it's not dying that turns off people from PvP. That's acceptable. But if you are slaughtered repeatedly without any chance to fight or even to land a hit against your opponent... that can remove people forever from PvP. You can't learn anything about PvP if you are waiting in a loading screen and then return to be a ghost. More precisely you will learn one thing: "it's pointless time-wasting, I'm better to do anything else".
You don't seem to pvp so let me explain it as someone that originally had to ask how to leave Cyro and has worked their way up.
I started playing in Cyro to get skyshards and I ran around with loads of treasure maps to farm up the EP style, I fell in love with how open it was and I really enjoyed the quests and the feels of the towns. I play a tank and pve so I'd roll heavy armor and wonder why I couldnt kill anything but still, it kept me alive. I joined pugs and eventually learned how to siege and when you're part of a pug you're eventually going to ball into another pug. You die a lot during this and I mean a lot. Sure it's discouraging but as you play you le as rn when to block, you recognize aoes and what you're standing in, you learn to buff up more often and pack a self he or 2. All stuff you can get away with in pve in most content but not in Cyrodiil. It is. O different from what players have to do in pve, gear, mechanics, etc. the learning curve is much steeper because there are human opponents not computer code designed with attack phases.
I get the loadscreens suck. I started learning Cyrodiil when infinite loadscreens were still a thing and you'd have to restart the game to get back in to find out you died to respawn and get another infinite screen. You need to realize these arent specific to you or anyone else it happens to everyone. The people farming you now were at one point rank 1. My main is a mDK in light armor and I have no problems taking on a 1v4 or 5 any more. Pvp is much harder to learn but if you stick with it you'll realize all of these problems are mental and easily conquered.0 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
I'm avoiding the event because I don't care about the rewards and it's a complete waste of my time.Rave the Histborn wrote: »You on the other hand don't have a tune, you say you love Cyro and you hate IC, then you're going to wait to do the quest lines if it gets done, then you've actually got about a hundred hours in IC from when it was part of Cyro and a few hours in the new campaign. You know all about the event and what people are going through with sewer platforms but you're avoiding this event at the same time.
True, I've only visited IC quite sporadically during this event (as I outlined earlier) - but loadscreen camping of players is nothing new, and the exact same thing was happening during the 5th anniversary event, which I did participate in during the PvP week.
We're getting increasingly off track here, so let's bring things back in line:
The OP's point was how PvP can be made more friendly to newcomers.
My point is that when a new player goes through the sewer door and loads in dead on the opposite side, that sends a very specific kind of message.
The exact kind of message that you do NOT want to be sending to new PvPers, if you want to encourage them to stay and enjoy actual PvP.
Your point that there are alternate paths through the districts is technically valid, but not relevant to the discussion.
The fact remains, that there are exploiters who are engaging in a form of behavior which is extremely destructive to ESO's PvP community in the long term.
And the fact that you are effectively defending the exploiters by trying to handwave the problem away and claiming that "hurr durr it's legit PvP", makes me begin to wonder if you are not actually one of those players.
Heres the thing. If your hypothetical person loads into pvp and dies that is part of the game. It is very very rare for this to happen on a loadscreen outside of this event and if this is something preventing people from joing pvp well they never wanted to pvp in the first place. Death is part of pvp and if dying is going to put you off you shouldn't even bother joining.
It is very much the message you want to be sending people though. You are in a warzone and war is cruel and you are going to die. You need to to think for yourself and be prepared. This isn't pve, the path isnt provided for you, you're going to need to do it on your own. If you're getting ganked going through doors buff up before so if you get attacked you have a chance to fight back.
My point isn't technically valid it is 100% valid and relevant. None of these players need to go through the sewer entrance and if you keep going out and getting farmed it is your fault. There's 8 ways out of the sewers. If you can't figure out how to not get farmed by using a different door then I'm not sure how to help.
There are exploiters in every game though so your point doesn't really stand though. This also isn't an exploit as it has been part of IC since launch, as much as you keep trying to paint it as such. If it was it would be fixed or there would have been an instakill like every other spawn not meant to be accessed. If you choose to LA spam down and someone Dragon Leaps up, not sure what to tell you, that's part of the game and you just gave that player access to the base. It's called taking responsibility.
I'm sorry but you dont just get to label everyone as an exploiter to fit your narrative. If it was an exploit it would have been changed, it isnt, end of story.
Lol I was on White Gold the other night helping people kill 2 griefing NBs that kept dual spamming meteors once you left base spawn. 4 or 5 deaths later and I find them in a different room stealthing (did you know you can find NBs in stealth without detection? Stealth up and use the eye you get. It won't knock them out of stealth but it will be completely open when you're right next to them. You can then spam an aoe and knock them out of stealth) and we fight and I killed them.
PVP is about learning from your mistakes, adapting, and surviving. There is no incentive beyond personal incentive. If you die and it turns you off from a zone completely I get it but you dont go suddenly change that entire zone around for 1% of the population that vocally hate it already.
You don't seem to understand a very important thing: it's not dying that turns off people from PvP. That's acceptable. But if you are slaughtered repeatedly without any chance to fight or even to land a hit against your opponent... that can remove people forever from PvP. You can't learn anything about PvP if you are waiting in a loading screen and then return to be a ghost. More precisely you will learn one thing: "it's pointless time-wasting, I'm better to do anything else".
You don't seem to pvp so let me explain it as someone that originally had to ask how to leave Cyro and has worked their way up.
I started playing in Cyro to get skyshards and I ran around with loads of treasure maps to farm up the EP style, I fell in love with how open it was and I really enjoyed the quests and the feels of the towns. I play a tank and pve so I'd roll heavy armor and wonder why I couldnt kill anything but still, it kept me alive. I joined pugs and eventually learned how to siege and when you're part of a pug you're eventually going to ball into another pug. You die a lot during this and I mean a lot. Sure it's discouraging but as you play you le as rn when to block, you recognize aoes and what you're standing in, you learn to buff up more often and pack a self he or 2. All stuff you can get away with in pve in most content but not in Cyrodiil. It is. O different from what players have to do in pve, gear, mechanics, etc. the learning curve is much steeper because there are human opponents not computer code designed with attack phases.
I get the loadscreens suck. I started learning Cyrodiil when infinite loadscreens were still a thing and you'd have to restart the game to get back in to find out you died to respawn and get another infinite screen. You need to realize these arent specific to you or anyone else it happens to everyone. The people farming you now were at one point rank 1. My main is a mDK in light armor and I have no problems taking on a 1v4 or 5 any more. Pvp is much harder to learn but if you stick with it you'll realize all of these problems are mental and easily conquered.
You are right, I'm not an active PvP player. But it's not because of Cyrodiil, or IC, or loading screens, or crashes. It's because I have 15 years of MMORPG experience, I've played more than a dozen of them and I have tried PvP in every single one of them - and I didn't find it enjoyable in any of them. There was only one game which was great for me, Atlas Reactor, and it doesn't exist any more.
Trust me, I know where to look for tips, I know about not standing in red and bring a few self-heal, I know when to run, when to strike back and how to find a fight - if I wanted to do that. I'm simply not interested in it... but that doesn't mean I don't have any clue why PvP get so little love from an average player.
Edit: typos...Edited by Ydrisselle on September 15, 2019 8:10PM5 -
jainiadral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
I'm avoiding the event because I don't care about the rewards and it's a complete waste of my time.Rave the Histborn wrote: »You on the other hand don't have a tune, you say you love Cyro and you hate IC, then you're going to wait to do the quest lines if it gets done, then you've actually got about a hundred hours in IC from when it was part of Cyro and a few hours in the new campaign. You know all about the event and what people are going through with sewer platforms but you're avoiding this event at the same time.
True, I've only visited IC quite sporadically during this event (as I outlined earlier) - but loadscreen camping of players is nothing new, and the exact same thing was happening during the 5th anniversary event, which I did participate in during the PvP week.
We're getting increasingly off track here, so let's bring things back in line:
The OP's point was how PvP can be made more friendly to newcomers.
My point is that when a new player goes through the sewer door and loads in dead on the opposite side, that sends a very specific kind of message.
The exact kind of message that you do NOT want to be sending to new PvPers, if you want to encourage them to stay and enjoy actual PvP.
Your point that there are alternate paths through the districts is technically valid, but not relevant to the discussion.
The fact remains, that there are exploiters who are engaging in a form of behavior which is extremely destructive to ESO's PvP community in the long term.
And the fact that you are effectively defending the exploiters by trying to handwave the problem away and claiming that "hurr durr it's legit PvP", makes me begin to wonder if you are not actually one of those players.
Heres the thing. If your hypothetical person loads into pvp and dies that is part of the game. It is very very rare for this to happen on a loadscreen outside of this event and if this is something preventing people from joing pvp well they never wanted to pvp in the first place. Death is part of pvp and if dying is going to put you off you shouldn't even bother joining.
It is very much the message you want to be sending people though. You are in a warzone and war is cruel and you are going to die. You need to to think for yourself and be prepared. This isn't pve, the path isnt provided for you, you're going to need to do it on your own. If you're getting ganked going through doors buff up before so if you get attacked you have a chance to fight back.
My point isn't technically valid it is 100% valid and relevant. None of these players need to go through the sewer entrance and if you keep going out and getting farmed it is your fault. There's 8 ways out of the sewers. If you can't figure out how to not get farmed by using a different door then I'm not sure how to help.
There are exploiters in every game though so your point doesn't really stand though. This also isn't an exploit as it has been part of IC since launch, as much as you keep trying to paint it as such. If it was it would be fixed or there would have been an instakill like every other spawn not meant to be accessed. If you choose to LA spam down and someone Dragon Leaps up, not sure what to tell you, that's part of the game and you just gave that player access to the base. It's called taking responsibility.
I'm sorry but you dont just get to label everyone as an exploiter to fit your narrative. If it was an exploit it would have been changed, it isnt, end of story.
Lol I was on White Gold the other night helping people kill 2 griefing NBs that kept dual spamming meteors once you left base spawn. 4 or 5 deaths later and I find them in a different room stealthing (did you know you can find NBs in stealth without detection? Stealth up and use the eye you get. It won't knock them out of stealth but it will be completely open when you're right next to them. You can then spam an aoe and knock them out of stealth) and we fight and I killed them.
PVP is about learning from your mistakes, adapting, and surviving. There is no incentive beyond personal incentive. If you die and it turns you off from a zone completely I get it but you dont go suddenly change that entire zone around for 1% of the population that vocally hate it already.
You don't seem to understand a very important thing: it's not dying that turns off people from PvP. That's acceptable. But if you are slaughtered repeatedly without any chance to fight or even to land a hit against your opponent... that can remove people forever from PvP. You can't learn anything about PvP if you are waiting in a loading screen and then return to be a ghost. More precisely you will learn one thing: "it's pointless time-wasting, I'm better to do anything else".
Ding, ding, ding! BINGO! We have the correct answer right here!
At least for me. This, right here, is 100% why I don't PvP in this game. Why I won't touch BGs with a 50' pole, let alone Cyrodiil or the IC. Even the daily structure for BGs works against newbies. You only finish the daily if you win. There's no alternate way for a brand new player to get enough decent gear to survive long enough to learn. It takes a billion years and a day (6 mos) to train your mount enough so that you're not totally ruined in the open world map.
There may be some PvErs who might hate PvP on a fundamental level, but I know I can't be the only person with some casual interest who is totally alienated by how hard it is to get into. I don't think radical changes are needed, just a couple of boosters here and there to make it easier to engage. To make the process just an eensie-weensie bit less demoralizing.
I've outlined mine. I'd also add account-wide mount training, since two of my possible Cyrodiiil-able max toons need at least tw or three more months of mount training to be truly viable.6 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
I'm avoiding the event because I don't care about the rewards and it's a complete waste of my time.Rave the Histborn wrote: »You on the other hand don't have a tune, you say you love Cyro and you hate IC, then you're going to wait to do the quest lines if it gets done, then you've actually got about a hundred hours in IC from when it was part of Cyro and a few hours in the new campaign. You know all about the event and what people are going through with sewer platforms but you're avoiding this event at the same time.
True, I've only visited IC quite sporadically during this event (as I outlined earlier) - but loadscreen camping of players is nothing new, and the exact same thing was happening during the 5th anniversary event, which I did participate in during the PvP week.
We're getting increasingly off track here, so let's bring things back in line:
The OP's point was how PvP can be made more friendly to newcomers.
My point is that when a new player goes through the sewer door and loads in dead on the opposite side, that sends a very specific kind of message.
The exact kind of message that you do NOT want to be sending to new PvPers, if you want to encourage them to stay and enjoy actual PvP.
Your point that there are alternate paths through the districts is technically valid, but not relevant to the discussion.
The fact remains, that there are exploiters who are engaging in a form of behavior which is extremely destructive to ESO's PvP community in the long term.
And the fact that you are effectively defending the exploiters by trying to handwave the problem away and claiming that "hurr durr it's legit PvP", makes me begin to wonder if you are not actually one of those players.
Heres the thing. If your hypothetical person loads into pvp and dies that is part of the game. It is very very rare for this to happen on a loadscreen outside of this event and if this is something preventing people from joing pvp well they never wanted to pvp in the first place. Death is part of pvp and if dying is going to put you off you shouldn't even bother joining.
It is very much the message you want to be sending people though. You are in a warzone and war is cruel and you are going to die. You need to to think for yourself and be prepared. This isn't pve, the path isnt provided for you, you're going to need to do it on your own. If you're getting ganked going through doors buff up before so if you get attacked you have a chance to fight back.
My point isn't technically valid it is 100% valid and relevant. None of these players need to go through the sewer entrance and if you keep going out and getting farmed it is your fault. There's 8 ways out of the sewers. If you can't figure out how to not get farmed by using a different door then I'm not sure how to help.
There are exploiters in every game though so your point doesn't really stand though. This also isn't an exploit as it has been part of IC since launch, as much as you keep trying to paint it as such. If it was it would be fixed or there would have been an instakill like every other spawn not meant to be accessed. If you choose to LA spam down and someone Dragon Leaps up, not sure what to tell you, that's part of the game and you just gave that player access to the base. It's called taking responsibility.
I'm sorry but you dont just get to label everyone as an exploiter to fit your narrative. If it was an exploit it would have been changed, it isnt, end of story.
Lol I was on White Gold the other night helping people kill 2 griefing NBs that kept dual spamming meteors once you left base spawn. 4 or 5 deaths later and I find them in a different room stealthing (did you know you can find NBs in stealth without detection? Stealth up and use the eye you get. It won't knock them out of stealth but it will be completely open when you're right next to them. You can then spam an aoe and knock them out of stealth) and we fight and I killed them.
PVP is about learning from your mistakes, adapting, and surviving. There is no incentive beyond personal incentive. If you die and it turns you off from a zone completely I get it but you dont go suddenly change that entire zone around for 1% of the population that vocally hate it already.
You don't seem to understand a very important thing: it's not dying that turns off people from PvP. That's acceptable. But if you are slaughtered repeatedly without any chance to fight or even to land a hit against your opponent... that can remove people forever from PvP. You can't learn anything about PvP if you are waiting in a loading screen and then return to be a ghost. More precisely you will learn one thing: "it's pointless time-wasting, I'm better to do anything else".
You don't seem to pvp so let me explain it as someone that originally had to ask how to leave Cyro and has worked their way up.
I started playing in Cyro to get skyshards and I ran around with loads of treasure maps to farm up the EP style, I fell in love with how open it was and I really enjoyed the quests and the feels of the towns. I play a tank and pve so I'd roll heavy armor and wonder why I couldnt kill anything but still, it kept me alive. I joined pugs and eventually learned how to siege and when you're part of a pug you're eventually going to ball into another pug. You die a lot during this and I mean a lot. Sure it's discouraging but as you play you le as rn when to block, you recognize aoes and what you're standing in, you learn to buff up more often and pack a self he or 2. All stuff you can get away with in pve in most content but not in Cyrodiil. It is. O different from what players have to do in pve, gear, mechanics, etc. the learning curve is much steeper because there are human opponents not computer code designed with attack phases.
I get the loadscreens suck. I started learning Cyrodiil when infinite loadscreens were still a thing and you'd have to restart the game to get back in to find out you died to respawn and get another infinite screen. You need to realize these arent specific to you or anyone else it happens to everyone. The people farming you now were at one point rank 1. My main is a mDK in light armor and I have no problems taking on a 1v4 or 5 any more. Pvp is much harder to learn but if you stick with it you'll realize all of these problems are mental and easily conquered.
You are right, I'm not an active PvP player. But it's not because of Cyrodiil, or IC, or loading screens, or crashes. It's because I have 15 years of MMORPG experience, I've played more than a dozen of them and I have tried PvP in every single one of them - and I didn't find it enjoyable in any of them. There was only one game which was great for me, Atlas Reactor, and it doesn't exist any more.
Trust me, I know where to look for tips, I know about not standing in red and bring a few self-heal, I know when to run, when to strike back and how to find a fight - if I wanted to do that. I'm simply not interested in it... but that doesn't mean I don't have any clue why PvP get so little love from an average player.
Edit: typos...
Heres the thing, the average player seems to vary widely from person to person. I've seen some people say the average person won't have access to pvp gear and skills and others say that the average player can't make it out of the sewers base. Either way I've pvped in multiple mmos Nd this is the best pvp so far1 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
I'm avoiding the event because I don't care about the rewards and it's a complete waste of my time.Rave the Histborn wrote: »You on the other hand don't have a tune, you say you love Cyro and you hate IC, then you're going to wait to do the quest lines if it gets done, then you've actually got about a hundred hours in IC from when it was part of Cyro and a few hours in the new campaign. You know all about the event and what people are going through with sewer platforms but you're avoiding this event at the same time.
True, I've only visited IC quite sporadically during this event (as I outlined earlier) - but loadscreen camping of players is nothing new, and the exact same thing was happening during the 5th anniversary event, which I did participate in during the PvP week.
We're getting increasingly off track here, so let's bring things back in line:
The OP's point was how PvP can be made more friendly to newcomers.
My point is that when a new player goes through the sewer door and loads in dead on the opposite side, that sends a very specific kind of message.
The exact kind of message that you do NOT want to be sending to new PvPers, if you want to encourage them to stay and enjoy actual PvP.
Your point that there are alternate paths through the districts is technically valid, but not relevant to the discussion.
The fact remains, that there are exploiters who are engaging in a form of behavior which is extremely destructive to ESO's PvP community in the long term.
And the fact that you are effectively defending the exploiters by trying to handwave the problem away and claiming that "hurr durr it's legit PvP", makes me begin to wonder if you are not actually one of those players.
Heres the thing. If your hypothetical person loads into pvp and dies that is part of the game. It is very very rare for this to happen on a loadscreen outside of this event and if this is something preventing people from joing pvp well they never wanted to pvp in the first place. Death is part of pvp and if dying is going to put you off you shouldn't even bother joining.
It is very much the message you want to be sending people though. You are in a warzone and war is cruel and you are going to die. You need to to think for yourself and be prepared. This isn't pve, the path isnt provided for you, you're going to need to do it on your own. If you're getting ganked going through doors buff up before so if you get attacked you have a chance to fight back.
My point isn't technically valid it is 100% valid and relevant. None of these players need to go through the sewer entrance and if you keep going out and getting farmed it is your fault. There's 8 ways out of the sewers. If you can't figure out how to not get farmed by using a different door then I'm not sure how to help.
There are exploiters in every game though so your point doesn't really stand though. This also isn't an exploit as it has been part of IC since launch, as much as you keep trying to paint it as such. If it was it would be fixed or there would have been an instakill like every other spawn not meant to be accessed. If you choose to LA spam down and someone Dragon Leaps up, not sure what to tell you, that's part of the game and you just gave that player access to the base. It's called taking responsibility.
I'm sorry but you dont just get to label everyone as an exploiter to fit your narrative. If it was an exploit it would have been changed, it isnt, end of story.
Lol I was on White Gold the other night helping people kill 2 griefing NBs that kept dual spamming meteors once you left base spawn. 4 or 5 deaths later and I find them in a different room stealthing (did you know you can find NBs in stealth without detection? Stealth up and use the eye you get. It won't knock them out of stealth but it will be completely open when you're right next to them. You can then spam an aoe and knock them out of stealth) and we fight and I killed them.
PVP is about learning from your mistakes, adapting, and surviving. There is no incentive beyond personal incentive. If you die and it turns you off from a zone completely I get it but you dont go suddenly change that entire zone around for 1% of the population that vocally hate it already.
You don't seem to understand a very important thing: it's not dying that turns off people from PvP. That's acceptable. But if you are slaughtered repeatedly without any chance to fight or even to land a hit against your opponent... that can remove people forever from PvP. You can't learn anything about PvP if you are waiting in a loading screen and then return to be a ghost. More precisely you will learn one thing: "it's pointless time-wasting, I'm better to do anything else".
You don't seem to pvp so let me explain it as someone that originally had to ask how to leave Cyro and has worked their way up.
I started playing in Cyro to get skyshards and I ran around with loads of treasure maps to farm up the EP style, I fell in love with how open it was and I really enjoyed the quests and the feels of the towns. I play a tank and pve so I'd roll heavy armor and wonder why I couldnt kill anything but still, it kept me alive. I joined pugs and eventually learned how to siege and when you're part of a pug you're eventually going to ball into another pug. You die a lot during this and I mean a lot. Sure it's discouraging but as you play you le as rn when to block, you recognize aoes and what you're standing in, you learn to buff up more often and pack a self he or 2. All stuff you can get away with in pve in most content but not in Cyrodiil. It is. O different from what players have to do in pve, gear, mechanics, etc. the learning curve is much steeper because there are human opponents not computer code designed with attack phases.
I get the loadscreens suck. I started learning Cyrodiil when infinite loadscreens were still a thing and you'd have to restart the game to get back in to find out you died to respawn and get another infinite screen. You need to realize these arent specific to you or anyone else it happens to everyone. The people farming you now were at one point rank 1. My main is a mDK in light armor and I have no problems taking on a 1v4 or 5 any more. Pvp is much harder to learn but if you stick with it you'll realize all of these problems are mental and easily conquered.
You are right, I'm not an active PvP player. But it's not because of Cyrodiil, or IC, or loading screens, or crashes. It's because I have 15 years of MMORPG experience, I've played more than a dozen of them and I have tried PvP in every single one of them - and I didn't find it enjoyable in any of them. There was only one game which was great for me, Atlas Reactor, and it doesn't exist any more.
Trust me, I know where to look for tips, I know about not standing in red and bring a few self-heal, I know when to run, when to strike back and how to find a fight - if I wanted to do that. I'm simply not interested in it... but that doesn't mean I don't have any clue why PvP get so little love from an average player.
Edit: typos...
Heres the thing, the average player seems to vary widely from person to person. I've seen some people say the average person won't have access to pvp gear and skills and others say that the average player can't make it out of the sewers base. Either way I've pvped in multiple mmos Nd this is the best pvp so far
Both are valid reasons for anybody to skip PvP - and since most of the players are skipping, we can say both are true for an average player.7 -
The_Lex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I did my fair share of defending PvP events. However, I will say that I completely understand the complaint about dying seemingly instantly with no warning. I've experienced my health bar going from full to nothing in seconds. I've experienced CCs so damaging and intense that my skill bar "greys out" and I can't cast a single skill. I get that frustration. Lag and performance issues aside, which is the likely cause, this is a real problem for newer players. Back at release, PvP wasn't so fast paced and damage wasn't so high so as to create these problems. I'll try to dig up some old videos. But, suffice to say, combat has become faster and faster and damage has become much higher. Most current PvP players have either adapted and/or have learned to enjoy it. I think ZOS recognizes the issue and is working to address it. Imo, cast times on ultimates is their first-step way of trying to slow things down, whether you love or hate that change.
Edited by The_Lex on September 15, 2019 8:54PM2 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭Join a PvP guild and learn it with some new friends. Lots of epic people out there on all 3 factions. Seriously PvP is so much fun when playing with friends. If any PVEr plays PCNA and has an EP toon let me know we will run with you and get you set up. Happy gaming y’all0 -
Urusovite✭✭✭Veinblood1965 wrote: »Yes let's flame the OP for posting an idea thread. A high majority of Pvp's are so toxic to these forums.
PvE is just as toxic you delusional potato. And in regards to the thread, NO! Throw on some impen and quit getting mad people know how to walk out of your rotation. Better yet, go enjoy a game that isn't dead.PS4 NA
Medium Stam Dk since launch
Technologically incompetent I'm told
Solo play is the only way2 -
Thannazzar✭✭✭✭✭
✭TBH now that I can buy cyrodil skyshards and skill lines in Crownstore, you will never see me in Cyrodil again. Adios Gankblades.4 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zos has already done evrything under the sun to make pvp more inviting to casual's. Every patch they encroach on traditional pvper's in trying to dumb pvp down. This has been the case for literally 2 years!
@Ozazz we’ve had our lil disagreements in the past; but, you’re spot on, 100% right about this.1 -
Recent✭✭✭✭✭
✭The reality is that pvp requires a certain amout of aggressiveness to be competitive. Players that don't pvp are essentially not as aggressive a player as pvpers. You can argue with me all you like but most pvpers I've met have that aggressive edge. I'm not neccessarily saying they need to be angry people but it's their attitude on the field....they fight back.
In my opinion there are 5 types of players : Casual pvpers, hardcore pvpers, casual pvers, hardcore pvers and then theres the few players that do both but usually are better at one over the other. They might be hardcore pvper but casual pve and vice versa.
Pvp is what it is and you cant candy coat it just like you cant sugar coat boxing...if you dont like to be punched back, dont get in the ring.Edited by Recent on September 15, 2019 9:39PM4 -
Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The reality is that pvp requires a certain amout of aggressiveness to be competitive. Players that don't pvp are essentially not as aggressive a player as pvpers. You can argue with me all you like but most pvpers I've met have that aggressive edge. I'm not neccessarily saying they need to be angry people but it's their attitude on the field....they fight back.
In my opinion there are 5 types of players : Casual pvpers, hardcore pvpers, casual pvers, hardcore pvers and then theres the few players that do both but usually are better at one over the other. They might be hardcore pvper but casual pve and vice versa.
Pvp is what it is and you cant candy coat it just like you cant sugar coat boxing...if you dont like to be punched back, dont get in the ring.
I used to play in competitive leagues in PvP for FPS games. I was never better than average but I enjoyed it, because the game I played everyone had identical gear and identical skill options.
Yes latency had an effect, it always will, but 98% of winning or losing was down to one thing - Player Skill.
In MMORPGs its down to roughly 35% gear , 35% build, 10% imbalanced skills, 2% latency, and roughly 18% Player Skill.
That's why I don't play PvP in MMORPGs. Nothing to do with more or less aggression.
Make PvP here be primarily down to Player Skill and I'll start playing.
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.0 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jainiadral wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
I'm avoiding the event because I don't care about the rewards and it's a complete waste of my time.Rave the Histborn wrote: »You on the other hand don't have a tune, you say you love Cyro and you hate IC, then you're going to wait to do the quest lines if it gets done, then you've actually got about a hundred hours in IC from when it was part of Cyro and a few hours in the new campaign. You know all about the event and what people are going through with sewer platforms but you're avoiding this event at the same time.
True, I've only visited IC quite sporadically during this event (as I outlined earlier) - but loadscreen camping of players is nothing new, and the exact same thing was happening during the 5th anniversary event, which I did participate in during the PvP week.
We're getting increasingly off track here, so let's bring things back in line:
The OP's point was how PvP can be made more friendly to newcomers.
My point is that when a new player goes through the sewer door and loads in dead on the opposite side, that sends a very specific kind of message.
The exact kind of message that you do NOT want to be sending to new PvPers, if you want to encourage them to stay and enjoy actual PvP.
Your point that there are alternate paths through the districts is technically valid, but not relevant to the discussion.
The fact remains, that there are exploiters who are engaging in a form of behavior which is extremely destructive to ESO's PvP community in the long term.
And the fact that you are effectively defending the exploiters by trying to handwave the problem away and claiming that "hurr durr it's legit PvP", makes me begin to wonder if you are not actually one of those players.
Heres the thing. If your hypothetical person loads into pvp and dies that is part of the game. It is very very rare for this to happen on a loadscreen outside of this event and if this is something preventing people from joing pvp well they never wanted to pvp in the first place. Death is part of pvp and if dying is going to put you off you shouldn't even bother joining.
It is very much the message you want to be sending people though. You are in a warzone and war is cruel and you are going to die. You need to to think for yourself and be prepared. This isn't pve, the path isnt provided for you, you're going to need to do it on your own. If you're getting ganked going through doors buff up before so if you get attacked you have a chance to fight back.
My point isn't technically valid it is 100% valid and relevant. None of these players need to go through the sewer entrance and if you keep going out and getting farmed it is your fault. There's 8 ways out of the sewers. If you can't figure out how to not get farmed by using a different door then I'm not sure how to help.
There are exploiters in every game though so your point doesn't really stand though. This also isn't an exploit as it has been part of IC since launch, as much as you keep trying to paint it as such. If it was it would be fixed or there would have been an instakill like every other spawn not meant to be accessed. If you choose to LA spam down and someone Dragon Leaps up, not sure what to tell you, that's part of the game and you just gave that player access to the base. It's called taking responsibility.
I'm sorry but you dont just get to label everyone as an exploiter to fit your narrative. If it was an exploit it would have been changed, it isnt, end of story.
Lol I was on White Gold the other night helping people kill 2 griefing NBs that kept dual spamming meteors once you left base spawn. 4 or 5 deaths later and I find them in a different room stealthing (did you know you can find NBs in stealth without detection? Stealth up and use the eye you get. It won't knock them out of stealth but it will be completely open when you're right next to them. You can then spam an aoe and knock them out of stealth) and we fight and I killed them.
PVP is about learning from your mistakes, adapting, and surviving. There is no incentive beyond personal incentive. If you die and it turns you off from a zone completely I get it but you dont go suddenly change that entire zone around for 1% of the population that vocally hate it already.
You don't seem to understand a very important thing: it's not dying that turns off people from PvP. That's acceptable. But if you are slaughtered repeatedly without any chance to fight or even to land a hit against your opponent... that can remove people forever from PvP. You can't learn anything about PvP if you are waiting in a loading screen and then return to be a ghost. More precisely you will learn one thing: "it's pointless time-wasting, I'm better to do anything else".
Ding, ding, ding! BINGO! We have the correct answer right here!
At least for me. This, right here, is 100% why I don't PvP in this game. Why I won't touch BGs with a 50' pole, let alone Cyrodiil or the IC. Even the daily structure for BGs works against newbies. You only finish the daily if you win. There's no alternate way for a brand new player to get enough decent gear to survive long enough to learn. It takes a billion years and a day (6 mos) to train your mount enough so that you're not totally ruined in the open world map.
There may be some PvErs who might hate PvP on a fundamental level, but I know I can't be the only person with some casual interest who is totally alienated by how hard it is to get into. I don't think radical changes are needed, just a couple of boosters here and there to make it easier to engage. To make the process just an eensie-weensie bit less demoralizing.
I've outlined mine. I'd also add account-wide mount training, since two of my possible Cyrodiiil-able max toons need at least tw or three more months of mount training to be truly viable.
They could make it so the mounts that are trained instead of the character. It wont sell lessons though.
BGs are fairly even playing field. No CP, even numbers (usually), and many of the match aren't specifically tailored to mortal combat. I believe that you still get the daily if you place second(?) The quests that require a player to win matches are different.
I play BGs in crafted gear on some characters. The bar isn't as high as many think, especially in below 50 BGs and a low MMR. If you run up against a group of good players you will lose, but you'll win a few as well.
I agree with the post that quoted though, some of the unsporting behavior this event we could live without. It doesn't help the PvP community as a whole in the least. Its a cheap thrill at the expense of the prosperity of PvP.
@Wandering_Immigrant
I actually did finish the quest line today, during the event. Its THE most fun I've had questing in a while.
1 -
buttaface✭✭✭✭✭Didn't read long thread, so sorry if this was already mentioned.
The answer is simple. Game developers should -stop- with the complicated, side-game, mazelike, overlarge PvP arenas until they have a simple, 4 man team deathmatch arena that is totally random, with safeguards in place to prevent premades from joining. The maps should be few, small and relatively simple. Hop in, fast queue, fight for 5 minutes, hop out. Fair for all, fun for all. This gets pvp newbs comfortable with using the combat system against other players without simultaneously having to learn some weird sidegame (BG), learn a maze (IC) or end up riding all over creation through a way overdone overlarge map set up to make ganking easier than it should be in the open world area (Cyro).
This is how GW1 did it. You had a basic 4 man random arena, then a 4 man team arena, then the more organized 8 man team guild battles. It had some small flaws such as premade creeps being able to exploit into the random arena, but by and large was pretty damn good. It couldn't BE any simpler to implement and see the wisdom behind it, yet time and time again, they (or whatever contractors they hire because its OBVIOUS ZOS just buys these modules somewhere on the cheap) bite off more than they can chew and end up alienating THOUSANDS of players who would play PvP modes if it was done right with some common sense.
1 -
jainiadral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agenericname wrote: »jainiadral wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
I'm avoiding the event because I don't care about the rewards and it's a complete waste of my time.Rave the Histborn wrote: »You on the other hand don't have a tune, you say you love Cyro and you hate IC, then you're going to wait to do the quest lines if it gets done, then you've actually got about a hundred hours in IC from when it was part of Cyro and a few hours in the new campaign. You know all about the event and what people are going through with sewer platforms but you're avoiding this event at the same time.
True, I've only visited IC quite sporadically during this event (as I outlined earlier) - but loadscreen camping of players is nothing new, and the exact same thing was happening during the 5th anniversary event, which I did participate in during the PvP week.
We're getting increasingly off track here, so let's bring things back in line:
The OP's point was how PvP can be made more friendly to newcomers.
My point is that when a new player goes through the sewer door and loads in dead on the opposite side, that sends a very specific kind of message.
The exact kind of message that you do NOT want to be sending to new PvPers, if you want to encourage them to stay and enjoy actual PvP.
Your point that there are alternate paths through the districts is technically valid, but not relevant to the discussion.
The fact remains, that there are exploiters who are engaging in a form of behavior which is extremely destructive to ESO's PvP community in the long term.
And the fact that you are effectively defending the exploiters by trying to handwave the problem away and claiming that "hurr durr it's legit PvP", makes me begin to wonder if you are not actually one of those players.
Heres the thing. If your hypothetical person loads into pvp and dies that is part of the game. It is very very rare for this to happen on a loadscreen outside of this event and if this is something preventing people from joing pvp well they never wanted to pvp in the first place. Death is part of pvp and if dying is going to put you off you shouldn't even bother joining.
It is very much the message you want to be sending people though. You are in a warzone and war is cruel and you are going to die. You need to to think for yourself and be prepared. This isn't pve, the path isnt provided for you, you're going to need to do it on your own. If you're getting ganked going through doors buff up before so if you get attacked you have a chance to fight back.
My point isn't technically valid it is 100% valid and relevant. None of these players need to go through the sewer entrance and if you keep going out and getting farmed it is your fault. There's 8 ways out of the sewers. If you can't figure out how to not get farmed by using a different door then I'm not sure how to help.
There are exploiters in every game though so your point doesn't really stand though. This also isn't an exploit as it has been part of IC since launch, as much as you keep trying to paint it as such. If it was it would be fixed or there would have been an instakill like every other spawn not meant to be accessed. If you choose to LA spam down and someone Dragon Leaps up, not sure what to tell you, that's part of the game and you just gave that player access to the base. It's called taking responsibility.
I'm sorry but you dont just get to label everyone as an exploiter to fit your narrative. If it was an exploit it would have been changed, it isnt, end of story.
Lol I was on White Gold the other night helping people kill 2 griefing NBs that kept dual spamming meteors once you left base spawn. 4 or 5 deaths later and I find them in a different room stealthing (did you know you can find NBs in stealth without detection? Stealth up and use the eye you get. It won't knock them out of stealth but it will be completely open when you're right next to them. You can then spam an aoe and knock them out of stealth) and we fight and I killed them.
PVP is about learning from your mistakes, adapting, and surviving. There is no incentive beyond personal incentive. If you die and it turns you off from a zone completely I get it but you dont go suddenly change that entire zone around for 1% of the population that vocally hate it already.
You don't seem to understand a very important thing: it's not dying that turns off people from PvP. That's acceptable. But if you are slaughtered repeatedly without any chance to fight or even to land a hit against your opponent... that can remove people forever from PvP. You can't learn anything about PvP if you are waiting in a loading screen and then return to be a ghost. More precisely you will learn one thing: "it's pointless time-wasting, I'm better to do anything else".
Ding, ding, ding! BINGO! We have the correct answer right here!
At least for me. This, right here, is 100% why I don't PvP in this game. Why I won't touch BGs with a 50' pole, let alone Cyrodiil or the IC. Even the daily structure for BGs works against newbies. You only finish the daily if you win. There's no alternate way for a brand new player to get enough decent gear to survive long enough to learn. It takes a billion years and a day (6 mos) to train your mount enough so that you're not totally ruined in the open world map.
There may be some PvErs who might hate PvP on a fundamental level, but I know I can't be the only person with some casual interest who is totally alienated by how hard it is to get into. I don't think radical changes are needed, just a couple of boosters here and there to make it easier to engage. To make the process just an eensie-weensie bit less demoralizing.
I've outlined mine. I'd also add account-wide mount training, since two of my possible Cyrodiiil-able max toons need at least tw or three more months of mount training to be truly viable.
They could make it so the mounts that are trained instead of the character. It wont sell lessons though.
BGs are fairly even playing field. No CP, even numbers (usually), and many of the match aren't specifically tailored to mortal combat. I believe that you still get the daily if you place second(?) The quests that require a player to win matches are different.
I play BGs in crafted gear on some characters. The bar isn't as high as many think, especially in below 50 BGs and a low MMR. If you run up against a group of good players you will lose, but you'll win a few as well.
I agree with the post that quoted though, some of the unsporting behavior this event we could live without. It doesn't help the PvP community as a whole in the least. Its a cheap thrill at the expense of the prosperity of PvP.
@Wandering_Immigrant
I actually did finish the quest line today, during the event. Its THE most fun I've had questing in a while.
Except there are three teams. Come in third a couple of times, get an insulting letter + "Rewards for the Cowardly" a couple of times after you've spent the entire match staring at death recaps and I can tell you that the will to continue runs really low when you're completely new to the game. That was the icing on the quit-cake for me
I'd love a second daily, maybe something that encourages you to try different match types. I'd have loved the arena, but what I got at random was two each of Capture the Relic (Huttball) and that flag one. Or complete three matches, something that gives you a boost for participating so that maybe you can help your team.1 -
Drako_Ei✭✭✭✭✭I tried to pvp yesterday to get my 50 transmute crystals, but skills not firing because of lag is so stupid and makes me want to cancel my sub, even tho i only play pve0
-
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
I'm avoiding the event because I don't care about the rewards and it's a complete waste of my time.Rave the Histborn wrote: »You on the other hand don't have a tune, you say you love Cyro and you hate IC, then you're going to wait to do the quest lines if it gets done, then you've actually got about a hundred hours in IC from when it was part of Cyro and a few hours in the new campaign. You know all about the event and what people are going through with sewer platforms but you're avoiding this event at the same time.
True, I've only visited IC quite sporadically during this event (as I outlined earlier) - but loadscreen camping of players is nothing new, and the exact same thing was happening during the 5th anniversary event, which I did participate in during the PvP week.
We're getting increasingly off track here, so let's bring things back in line:
The OP's point was how PvP can be made more friendly to newcomers.
My point is that when a new player goes through the sewer door and loads in dead on the opposite side, that sends a very specific kind of message.
The exact kind of message that you do NOT want to be sending to new PvPers, if you want to encourage them to stay and enjoy actual PvP.
Your point that there are alternate paths through the districts is technically valid, but not relevant to the discussion.
The fact remains, that there are exploiters who are engaging in a form of behavior which is extremely destructive to ESO's PvP community in the long term.
And the fact that you are effectively defending the exploiters by trying to handwave the problem away and claiming that "hurr durr it's legit PvP", makes me begin to wonder if you are not actually one of those players.
Heres the thing. If your hypothetical person loads into pvp and dies that is part of the game. It is very very rare for this to happen on a loadscreen outside of this event and if this is something preventing people from joing pvp well they never wanted to pvp in the first place. Death is part of pvp and if dying is going to put you off you shouldn't even bother joining.
It is very much the message you want to be sending people though. You are in a warzone and war is cruel and you are going to die. You need to to think for yourself and be prepared. This isn't pve, the path isnt provided for you, you're going to need to do it on your own. If you're getting ganked going through doors buff up before so if you get attacked you have a chance to fight back.
My point isn't technically valid it is 100% valid and relevant. None of these players need to go through the sewer entrance and if you keep going out and getting farmed it is your fault. There's 8 ways out of the sewers. If you can't figure out how to not get farmed by using a different door then I'm not sure how to help.
There are exploiters in every game though so your point doesn't really stand though. This also isn't an exploit as it has been part of IC since launch, as much as you keep trying to paint it as such. If it was it would be fixed or there would have been an instakill like every other spawn not meant to be accessed. If you choose to LA spam down and someone Dragon Leaps up, not sure what to tell you, that's part of the game and you just gave that player access to the base. It's called taking responsibility.
I'm sorry but you dont just get to label everyone as an exploiter to fit your narrative. If it was an exploit it would have been changed, it isnt, end of story.
Lol I was on White Gold the other night helping people kill 2 griefing NBs that kept dual spamming meteors once you left base spawn. 4 or 5 deaths later and I find them in a different room stealthing (did you know you can find NBs in stealth without detection? Stealth up and use the eye you get. It won't knock them out of stealth but it will be completely open when you're right next to them. You can then spam an aoe and knock them out of stealth) and we fight and I killed them.
PVP is about learning from your mistakes, adapting, and surviving. There is no incentive beyond personal incentive. If you die and it turns you off from a zone completely I get it but you dont go suddenly change that entire zone around for 1% of the population that vocally hate it already.
You don't seem to understand a very important thing: it's not dying that turns off people from PvP. That's acceptable. But if you are slaughtered repeatedly without any chance to fight or even to land a hit against your opponent... that can remove people forever from PvP. You can't learn anything about PvP if you are waiting in a loading screen and then return to be a ghost. More precisely you will learn one thing: "it's pointless time-wasting, I'm better to do anything else".
You don't seem to pvp so let me explain it as someone that originally had to ask how to leave Cyro and has worked their way up.
I started playing in Cyro to get skyshards and I ran around with loads of treasure maps to farm up the EP style, I fell in love with how open it was and I really enjoyed the quests and the feels of the towns. I play a tank and pve so I'd roll heavy armor and wonder why I couldnt kill anything but still, it kept me alive. I joined pugs and eventually learned how to siege and when you're part of a pug you're eventually going to ball into another pug. You die a lot during this and I mean a lot. Sure it's discouraging but as you play you le as rn when to block, you recognize aoes and what you're standing in, you learn to buff up more often and pack a self he or 2. All stuff you can get away with in pve in most content but not in Cyrodiil. It is. O different from what players have to do in pve, gear, mechanics, etc. the learning curve is much steeper because there are human opponents not computer code designed with attack phases.
I get the loadscreens suck. I started learning Cyrodiil when infinite loadscreens were still a thing and you'd have to restart the game to get back in to find out you died to respawn and get another infinite screen. You need to realize these arent specific to you or anyone else it happens to everyone. The people farming you now were at one point rank 1. My main is a mDK in light armor and I have no problems taking on a 1v4 or 5 any more. Pvp is much harder to learn but if you stick with it you'll realize all of these problems are mental and easily conquered.
You are right, I'm not an active PvP player. But it's not because of Cyrodiil, or IC, or loading screens, or crashes. It's because I have 15 years of MMORPG experience, I've played more than a dozen of them and I have tried PvP in every single one of them - and I didn't find it enjoyable in any of them. There was only one game which was great for me, Atlas Reactor, and it doesn't exist any more.
Trust me, I know where to look for tips, I know about not standing in red and bring a few self-heal, I know when to run, when to strike back and how to find a fight - if I wanted to do that. I'm simply not interested in it... but that doesn't mean I don't have any clue why PvP get so little love from an average player.
Edit: typos...
Heres the thing, the average player seems to vary widely from person to person. I've seen some people say the average person won't have access to pvp gear and skills and others say that the average player can't make it out of the sewers base. Either way I've pvped in multiple mmos Nd this is the best pvp so far
Both are valid reasons for anybody to skip PvP - and since most of the players are skipping, we can say both are true for an average player.
They arent valid reasons to skip anything. It is as easy to gear in pvp as it is in pve. The average player also has a lot of pve, some could argue too much. Maybe if that was cut down in order to further put resources into server performance (pvp is more server dependent then pve) we'd see pvp not ignored.0 -
Drako_Ei✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
I'm avoiding the event because I don't care about the rewards and it's a complete waste of my time.Rave the Histborn wrote: »You on the other hand don't have a tune, you say you love Cyro and you hate IC, then you're going to wait to do the quest lines if it gets done, then you've actually got about a hundred hours in IC from when it was part of Cyro and a few hours in the new campaign. You know all about the event and what people are going through with sewer platforms but you're avoiding this event at the same time.
True, I've only visited IC quite sporadically during this event (as I outlined earlier) - but loadscreen camping of players is nothing new, and the exact same thing was happening during the 5th anniversary event, which I did participate in during the PvP week.
We're getting increasingly off track here, so let's bring things back in line:
The OP's point was how PvP can be made more friendly to newcomers.
My point is that when a new player goes through the sewer door and loads in dead on the opposite side, that sends a very specific kind of message.
The exact kind of message that you do NOT want to be sending to new PvPers, if you want to encourage them to stay and enjoy actual PvP.
Your point that there are alternate paths through the districts is technically valid, but not relevant to the discussion.
The fact remains, that there are exploiters who are engaging in a form of behavior which is extremely destructive to ESO's PvP community in the long term.
And the fact that you are effectively defending the exploiters by trying to handwave the problem away and claiming that "hurr durr it's legit PvP", makes me begin to wonder if you are not actually one of those players.
Heres the thing. If your hypothetical person loads into pvp and dies that is part of the game. It is very very rare for this to happen on a loadscreen outside of this event and if this is something preventing people from joing pvp well they never wanted to pvp in the first place. Death is part of pvp and if dying is going to put you off you shouldn't even bother joining.
It is very much the message you want to be sending people though. You are in a warzone and war is cruel and you are going to die. You need to to think for yourself and be prepared. This isn't pve, the path isnt provided for you, you're going to need to do it on your own. If you're getting ganked going through doors buff up before so if you get attacked you have a chance to fight back.
My point isn't technically valid it is 100% valid and relevant. None of these players need to go through the sewer entrance and if you keep going out and getting farmed it is your fault. There's 8 ways out of the sewers. If you can't figure out how to not get farmed by using a different door then I'm not sure how to help.
There are exploiters in every game though so your point doesn't really stand though. This also isn't an exploit as it has been part of IC since launch, as much as you keep trying to paint it as such. If it was it would be fixed or there would have been an instakill like every other spawn not meant to be accessed. If you choose to LA spam down and someone Dragon Leaps up, not sure what to tell you, that's part of the game and you just gave that player access to the base. It's called taking responsibility.
I'm sorry but you dont just get to label everyone as an exploiter to fit your narrative. If it was an exploit it would have been changed, it isnt, end of story.
Lol I was on White Gold the other night helping people kill 2 griefing NBs that kept dual spamming meteors once you left base spawn. 4 or 5 deaths later and I find them in a different room stealthing (did you know you can find NBs in stealth without detection? Stealth up and use the eye you get. It won't knock them out of stealth but it will be completely open when you're right next to them. You can then spam an aoe and knock them out of stealth) and we fight and I killed them.
PVP is about learning from your mistakes, adapting, and surviving. There is no incentive beyond personal incentive. If you die and it turns you off from a zone completely I get it but you dont go suddenly change that entire zone around for 1% of the population that vocally hate it already.
You don't seem to understand a very important thing: it's not dying that turns off people from PvP. That's acceptable. But if you are slaughtered repeatedly without any chance to fight or even to land a hit against your opponent... that can remove people forever from PvP. You can't learn anything about PvP if you are waiting in a loading screen and then return to be a ghost. More precisely you will learn one thing: "it's pointless time-wasting, I'm better to do anything else".
You don't seem to pvp so let me explain it as someone that originally had to ask how to leave Cyro and has worked their way up.
I started playing in Cyro to get skyshards and I ran around with loads of treasure maps to farm up the EP style, I fell in love with how open it was and I really enjoyed the quests and the feels of the towns. I play a tank and pve so I'd roll heavy armor and wonder why I couldnt kill anything but still, it kept me alive. I joined pugs and eventually learned how to siege and when you're part of a pug you're eventually going to ball into another pug. You die a lot during this and I mean a lot. Sure it's discouraging but as you play you le as rn when to block, you recognize aoes and what you're standing in, you learn to buff up more often and pack a self he or 2. All stuff you can get away with in pve in most content but not in Cyrodiil. It is. O different from what players have to do in pve, gear, mechanics, etc. the learning curve is much steeper because there are human opponents not computer code designed with attack phases.
I get the loadscreens suck. I started learning Cyrodiil when infinite loadscreens were still a thing and you'd have to restart the game to get back in to find out you died to respawn and get another infinite screen. You need to realize these arent specific to you or anyone else it happens to everyone. The people farming you now were at one point rank 1. My main is a mDK in light armor and I have no problems taking on a 1v4 or 5 any more. Pvp is much harder to learn but if you stick with it you'll realize all of these problems are mental and easily conquered.
You are right, I'm not an active PvP player. But it's not because of Cyrodiil, or IC, or loading screens, or crashes. It's because I have 15 years of MMORPG experience, I've played more than a dozen of them and I have tried PvP in every single one of them - and I didn't find it enjoyable in any of them. There was only one game which was great for me, Atlas Reactor, and it doesn't exist any more.
Trust me, I know where to look for tips, I know about not standing in red and bring a few self-heal, I know when to run, when to strike back and how to find a fight - if I wanted to do that. I'm simply not interested in it... but that doesn't mean I don't have any clue why PvP get so little love from an average player.
Edit: typos...
Heres the thing, the average player seems to vary widely from person to person. I've seen some people say the average person won't have access to pvp gear and skills and others say that the average player can't make it out of the sewers base. Either way I've pvped in multiple mmos Nd this is the best pvp so far
Both are valid reasons for anybody to skip PvP - and since most of the players are skipping, we can say both are true for an average player.
They arent valid reasons to skip anything. It is as easy to gear in pvp as it is in pve. The average player also has a lot of pve, some could argue too much. Maybe if that was cut down in order to further put resources into server performance (pvp is more server dependent then pve) we'd see pvp not ignored.
I would play PvP if i could actually play it.
At least when i press buttons stuff happens at PvE.5 -
jainiadral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
I'm avoiding the event because I don't care about the rewards and it's a complete waste of my time.Rave the Histborn wrote: »You on the other hand don't have a tune, you say you love Cyro and you hate IC, then you're going to wait to do the quest lines if it gets done, then you've actually got about a hundred hours in IC from when it was part of Cyro and a few hours in the new campaign. You know all about the event and what people are going through with sewer platforms but you're avoiding this event at the same time.
True, I've only visited IC quite sporadically during this event (as I outlined earlier) - but loadscreen camping of players is nothing new, and the exact same thing was happening during the 5th anniversary event, which I did participate in during the PvP week.
We're getting increasingly off track here, so let's bring things back in line:
The OP's point was how PvP can be made more friendly to newcomers.
My point is that when a new player goes through the sewer door and loads in dead on the opposite side, that sends a very specific kind of message.
The exact kind of message that you do NOT want to be sending to new PvPers, if you want to encourage them to stay and enjoy actual PvP.
Your point that there are alternate paths through the districts is technically valid, but not relevant to the discussion.
The fact remains, that there are exploiters who are engaging in a form of behavior which is extremely destructive to ESO's PvP community in the long term.
And the fact that you are effectively defending the exploiters by trying to handwave the problem away and claiming that "hurr durr it's legit PvP", makes me begin to wonder if you are not actually one of those players.
Heres the thing. If your hypothetical person loads into pvp and dies that is part of the game. It is very very rare for this to happen on a loadscreen outside of this event and if this is something preventing people from joing pvp well they never wanted to pvp in the first place. Death is part of pvp and if dying is going to put you off you shouldn't even bother joining.
It is very much the message you want to be sending people though. You are in a warzone and war is cruel and you are going to die. You need to to think for yourself and be prepared. This isn't pve, the path isnt provided for you, you're going to need to do it on your own. If you're getting ganked going through doors buff up before so if you get attacked you have a chance to fight back.
My point isn't technically valid it is 100% valid and relevant. None of these players need to go through the sewer entrance and if you keep going out and getting farmed it is your fault. There's 8 ways out of the sewers. If you can't figure out how to not get farmed by using a different door then I'm not sure how to help.
There are exploiters in every game though so your point doesn't really stand though. This also isn't an exploit as it has been part of IC since launch, as much as you keep trying to paint it as such. If it was it would be fixed or there would have been an instakill like every other spawn not meant to be accessed. If you choose to LA spam down and someone Dragon Leaps up, not sure what to tell you, that's part of the game and you just gave that player access to the base. It's called taking responsibility.
I'm sorry but you dont just get to label everyone as an exploiter to fit your narrative. If it was an exploit it would have been changed, it isnt, end of story.
Lol I was on White Gold the other night helping people kill 2 griefing NBs that kept dual spamming meteors once you left base spawn. 4 or 5 deaths later and I find them in a different room stealthing (did you know you can find NBs in stealth without detection? Stealth up and use the eye you get. It won't knock them out of stealth but it will be completely open when you're right next to them. You can then spam an aoe and knock them out of stealth) and we fight and I killed them.
PVP is about learning from your mistakes, adapting, and surviving. There is no incentive beyond personal incentive. If you die and it turns you off from a zone completely I get it but you dont go suddenly change that entire zone around for 1% of the population that vocally hate it already.
You don't seem to understand a very important thing: it's not dying that turns off people from PvP. That's acceptable. But if you are slaughtered repeatedly without any chance to fight or even to land a hit against your opponent... that can remove people forever from PvP. You can't learn anything about PvP if you are waiting in a loading screen and then return to be a ghost. More precisely you will learn one thing: "it's pointless time-wasting, I'm better to do anything else".
You don't seem to pvp so let me explain it as someone that originally had to ask how to leave Cyro and has worked their way up.
I started playing in Cyro to get skyshards and I ran around with loads of treasure maps to farm up the EP style, I fell in love with how open it was and I really enjoyed the quests and the feels of the towns. I play a tank and pve so I'd roll heavy armor and wonder why I couldnt kill anything but still, it kept me alive. I joined pugs and eventually learned how to siege and when you're part of a pug you're eventually going to ball into another pug. You die a lot during this and I mean a lot. Sure it's discouraging but as you play you le as rn when to block, you recognize aoes and what you're standing in, you learn to buff up more often and pack a self he or 2. All stuff you can get away with in pve in most content but not in Cyrodiil. It is. O different from what players have to do in pve, gear, mechanics, etc. the learning curve is much steeper because there are human opponents not computer code designed with attack phases.
I get the loadscreens suck. I started learning Cyrodiil when infinite loadscreens were still a thing and you'd have to restart the game to get back in to find out you died to respawn and get another infinite screen. You need to realize these arent specific to you or anyone else it happens to everyone. The people farming you now were at one point rank 1. My main is a mDK in light armor and I have no problems taking on a 1v4 or 5 any more. Pvp is much harder to learn but if you stick with it you'll realize all of these problems are mental and easily conquered.
You are right, I'm not an active PvP player. But it's not because of Cyrodiil, or IC, or loading screens, or crashes. It's because I have 15 years of MMORPG experience, I've played more than a dozen of them and I have tried PvP in every single one of them - and I didn't find it enjoyable in any of them. There was only one game which was great for me, Atlas Reactor, and it doesn't exist any more.
Trust me, I know where to look for tips, I know about not standing in red and bring a few self-heal, I know when to run, when to strike back and how to find a fight - if I wanted to do that. I'm simply not interested in it... but that doesn't mean I don't have any clue why PvP get so little love from an average player.
Edit: typos...
Heres the thing, the average player seems to vary widely from person to person. I've seen some people say the average person won't have access to pvp gear and skills and others say that the average player can't make it out of the sewers base. Either way I've pvped in multiple mmos Nd this is the best pvp so far
Both are valid reasons for anybody to skip PvP - and since most of the players are skipping, we can say both are true for an average player.
They arent valid reasons to skip anything. It is as easy to gear in pvp as it is in pve. The average player also has a lot of pve, some could argue too much. Maybe if that was cut down in order to further put resources into server performance (pvp is more server dependent then pve) we'd see pvp not ignored.
Too much PvE? Are you serious? If you cut back PvE and throw those resources into PvP, you'd have a dead game. Players would quit in droves and ZOS' revenues would tank.8 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »I used to play in competitive leagues in PvP for FPS games. I was never better than average but I enjoyed it, because the game I played everyone had identical gear and identical skill options.
Yes latency had an effect, it always will, but 98% of winning or losing was down to one thing - Player Skill.
In MMORPGs its down to roughly 35% gear , 35% build, 10% imbalanced skills, 2% latency, and roughly 18% Player Skill.
That's why I don't play PvP in MMORPGs. Nothing to do with more or less aggression.
Make PvP here be primarily down to Player Skill and I'll start playing.
I also enjoy first person shooters and have played in leagues and such in the past. I agree and disagree with your assessment.
The biggest difference between success in ESO PVP and something like CSGO is knowledge. There is so much more to learn. ESO is a highly complex game. Its complexities result in a huge array of contextual and emergent skills. Despite the best efforts of the devs, this game still has a high skill ceiling.
This in itself wouldn't be bad, but the overhead to maintain knowledge is very high because the game keeps changing through frequent significant adjustments and a constant influx of new sets. I find this to be extremely tedious. I wanted to PVP in the IC event, but in the end I decided not to because too much had changed since the last time I played back in.. May?
This is part of the reason why I wish ESO AvA would be spun off as its own game, optimized for PVP.Edited by zyk on September 15, 2019 11:36PM2 -
RaveRaveRaveRave✭✭✭How to make PvP more friendly and inviting?
Well the first thing I would do is delete the Templar class that 90% of players are abusing currently.0 -
dcam86b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Another pop-up window that lets them know
hey you're gonna be ganked or griefed by other players, there are no safe spaces outside of your alliance Homebase. Do you accept this treatment yes or no if yes they enter cryo if no they go back to regular base content?0 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RaveRaveRaveRave wrote: »How to make PvP more friendly and inviting?
Well the first thing I would do is delete the Templar class that 90% of players are abusing currently.
And after Templar, Sorc, then Night Blades, Dragon Knights, and so on. We could all eventually play with stick figures instead. You're on to something!4