How to make PvP more friendly and inviting to PvErs?

Ackwalan · September 2019

Morgul667 wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

Not everyone plays games to compete with other players. A lot of people aren’t wired that way. They’re not better or worse players than people who do, just different kind of players. Just accept it. It also doesn’t mean that they’re “scared” of PvP. Some people just don’t like it.
Me? You’ll never get me to like the PvP in this game unless it changes drastically, which is unreasonable, so I stay out of it unless I need warhorn/Vigor.
I don’t mind PvP in some other games in medium doses but I just hate competing with other players, that’s not why I play video games. I do however like to co op with players, hence why I like dungeons and trials.
Different people like different things.

I think the problem is mainly with whiners who complain about pvp all the time

Different people love different things is pretty normal

Doesnt mean you have to criticize others and spill hate all over the other players

And i honestly dont think we can help those people enjoy pvp

True, but there are whiners on both sides.
Another problem is the people on both sides who look down their nose at players who prefer the other style, there’s a lot of that going on and it has to stop. A bit more respect needed on both sides.

Agreed

I seldomly see pvpers complaining about pvers though

Toxic is on both side and i dont think we can help people who feel they are entitled to have it easy in pvp

Same way i think we cant help a pvpers who walks into a vhof and makes a scene because he dies

Really? I seem to remember lots of QQ from PvP during the undaunted event. Both of why it was locked behind PvE and for getting kicked from groups.

vamp_emily · September 2019

Today's topic is "how can we make PvP more friendly and inviting to PvErs". A week from now the topic will be, "PvP players are scum bags".

My suggestion is do the dungeons that give you what you need and then go back to PvE. If you don't want to PvP then you shouldn't be there, it ruins the experience for the players that like PvP.

Eirinin · September 2019

Tandor wrote: »

These topics never end well, they always reach a point where the insults to PvEers start. This is, however, the only one I can recall where the insults to PvErs started in the opening post.

Amen.

Personally, I think it is a lost cause. Someone excited to go see a movie and follow the story and character development is never going to be able to get onboard and have fun with the guy in the theatre throwing popcorn and loudly insulting everyone's mothers.

IndianaJames7 · September 2019

I wouldn’t be opposed to scaling blessings of war to account wide ap earned. Similar to MMR but instead of using it to determine your opponents, use it to determine the buff you get. Essentially a handicap for players new to pvp on an account wide level that decreases with experience and is fully eliminated by the time you reach 5-10 million ap across characters.

Not sure how feasible this would actually be to implement effectively on ZOS’ side but it would give inexperienced PvPers a better chance to learn how to fight before they are almost instantly killed by people who know what they are doing. This would also make it more fun and challenging for experienced players as even pvp greenhorns could put up a solid fight due to their handicap.

Watchdog · September 2019

Wrexsoul wrote: »

I'm sure quite a few people never get into PvP just for the fact that they have to go get gear for it. Add a new mundus stone (based on a member of The Tribunal) that adds crit resistance so people can go PvP in their divines gear. They won't be on the same level as players wearing inpen trait armor + mundus but it would be a lot better for them then it is now.

Increase exp gain for PvP related activities and killing mobs in PvP zones. Crank it up and then suppress the training trait from working so you don't just end up with a bunch of useless warm bodies clogging up the battlefields.

Add PvP vendors that sell a variety of motifs and housing items for stones and AP. Make the items attractive looking and unique. They don't have to all be grimdark torture devices. You could also add player purchasable Towers, Forts, and Castles to be used as homes.

Add NEW cosmetics. Skins, costumes, mounts, motifs, dyes and non-combat pets to be rewarded by unlocking achievements or doing quests.

This would not make PvP attractive to me. This would simply frustrate me to no end, because it would lock even more content behind PvP, making those things unavailable to me.

No, thanks.

Heatnix90 · September 2019

Ackwalan wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

Not everyone plays games to compete with other players. A lot of people aren’t wired that way. They’re not better or worse players than people who do, just different kind of players. Just accept it. It also doesn’t mean that they’re “scared” of PvP. Some people just don’t like it.
Me? You’ll never get me to like the PvP in this game unless it changes drastically, which is unreasonable, so I stay out of it unless I need warhorn/Vigor.
I don’t mind PvP in some other games in medium doses but I just hate competing with other players, that’s not why I play video games. I do however like to co op with players, hence why I like dungeons and trials.
Different people like different things.

I think the problem is mainly with whiners who complain about pvp all the time

Different people love different things is pretty normal

Doesnt mean you have to criticize others and spill hate all over the other players

And i honestly dont think we can help those people enjoy pvp

True, but there are whiners on both sides.
Another problem is the people on both sides who look down their nose at players who prefer the other style, there’s a lot of that going on and it has to stop. A bit more respect needed on both sides.

Agreed

I seldomly see pvpers complaining about pvers though

Toxic is on both side and i dont think we can help people who feel they are entitled to have it easy in pvp

Same way i think we cant help a pvpers who walks into a vhof and makes a scene because he dies

Really? I seem to remember lots of QQ from PvP during the undaunted event. Both of why it was locked behind PvE and for getting kicked from groups.

Lol what, Undaunted event didn't have any qq because people were abusing the Fungal Grotto I trick. Maybe you heard about PvPers whining about having to grind undaunted every time they roll a new character. In fact, most PvP mains usually stick to their own when grinding out this stuff, and tend to ignore the events unless they really want those indriks (spoiler: they really don't), or the motifs/styles (which they usually end up buying because lol @ grinding Maelstrom or any other content for a single style/motif page).

Wrexsoul wrote: »

I'm sure quite a few people never get into PvP just for the fact that they have to go get gear for it. Add a new mundus stone (based on a member of The Tribunal) that adds crit resistance so people can go PvP in their divines gear. They won't be on the same level as players wearing inpen trait armor + mundus but it would be a lot better for them then it is now.

Increase exp gain for PvP related activities and killing mobs in PvP zones. Crank it up and then suppress the training trait from working so you don't just end up with a bunch of useless warm bodies clogging up the battlefields.

Add PvP vendors that sell a variety of motifs and housing items for stones and AP. Make the items attractive looking and unique. They don't have to all be grimdark torture devices. You could also add player purchasable Towers, Forts, and Castles to be used as homes.

Add NEW cosmetics. Skins, costumes, mounts, motifs, dyes and non-combat pets to be rewarded by unlocking achievements or doing quests.

Agree with everything except the Mundus idea. If they want to PvP they better learn how to, this whole "let's hold their hand the whole way" thing is dumb.

Rave the Histborn · September 2019

Ackwalan wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

Not everyone plays games to compete with other players. A lot of people aren’t wired that way. They’re not better or worse players than people who do, just different kind of players. Just accept it. It also doesn’t mean that they’re “scared” of PvP. Some people just don’t like it.
Me? You’ll never get me to like the PvP in this game unless it changes drastically, which is unreasonable, so I stay out of it unless I need warhorn/Vigor.
I don’t mind PvP in some other games in medium doses but I just hate competing with other players, that’s not why I play video games. I do however like to co op with players, hence why I like dungeons and trials.
Different people like different things.

I think the problem is mainly with whiners who complain about pvp all the time

Different people love different things is pretty normal

Doesnt mean you have to criticize others and spill hate all over the other players

And i honestly dont think we can help those people enjoy pvp

True, but there are whiners on both sides.
Another problem is the people on both sides who look down their nose at players who prefer the other style, there’s a lot of that going on and it has to stop. A bit more respect needed on both sides.

Agreed

I seldomly see pvpers complaining about pvers though

Toxic is on both side and i dont think we can help people who feel they are entitled to have it easy in pvp

Same way i think we cant help a pvpers who walks into a vhof and makes a scene because he dies

Really? I seem to remember lots of QQ from PvP during the undaunted event. Both of why it was locked behind PvE and for getting kicked from groups.

But isn't that valid criticism? Getting kicked from dungeon groups seems to be a common occurrence in pve from both sides about multiple issues (lacking dps, not real tanks, low cp, etc.)

InvictusApollo · September 2019

Tandor wrote: »

These topics never end well, they always reach a point where the insults to PvEers start. This is, however, the only one I can recall where the insults to PvErs started in the opening post.

Which one is an insult? Me describing a real situation that actually happened? Or me expecting adults to have some skin and actually behave like adults? I'm not going to sugarcoat every statement and every fact. And I'm not going to respect things and acts that don't deserve respect because then respect would mean nothing.
How did our society fail so miserably that we produce people so oversensitive, that they get "traumatized" by a video game?

jainiadral · September 2019

The thread's objective is lsudable, so thanks, OP

I'm not big on PvP, but I've had fun in other games. I enjoyed WvW in GW2 a lot when it used to be balanced around server strength before Anet started borking around with throwing tiny no-name servers into the mix with the big boys. I had fun with sPvP there on and off. Some of the PvP non-combat activities could bw fun too. Enjoyed lowbie PvP in SWTOR a lot too. SWL's free-for-all mob vs. mob Shambala is my all-time favorite. It's straight up mayhem and one heck of a lot of crazy fun.

So I'm capable of enjoying it in my own carebear way.

Here? Oh hell no. Some of it is the encounter design, some of it is in the base game mechanic, some is in the unholy mixture of PvE and PvP. There's too much complexity in ZOS' combat design, and BGs are confusing as hell with three teams. Plus, the reward structure is crap. If you lose, you *really* lose. I don't feel any engineered reason from ZOS to keep going. Plus, the setup isn't intrinsically fun enough to make me WANT to get better. So it's a failure on both extrinsic and intrinsic motivators.

PvE and PvP take radically different mental states for me to engage in them. When I quest, I want to relax. I want to take in the environment and story details. I want to hear the NPC's voice. I want to see their expressions, see their homes and fields or forests. Get in the way of that and you'll make me loathe you personally forever

In SWTOR, my ignore list was solely quest objective ninjas

I could give two craps about snything else you do in chat, but get in the way of my story...

The other factor here is a lot of the vocal PvP player base on the forums. I'm not a competitive player and I hate trash talk with the passion of a billion burning suns. So reading a lot of these posts on these forums actively cheeses me off. I almost never engage, but sometimes I really want to let loose with a barrage of invective. The thought of dealing with a bunch of you in-game is not my idea of fun. You guys, like competitive PvE endgamers, create a chilling effect when it comes to engaging in social activites. And PvP is one of them.

NoTimeToWait · September 2019

Add a Match making rating system. So that low-skilled would be matched with low-skilled, pros with pros and cheaters with cheaters ;P Though in ESO it edges on impossible

InvictusApollo · September 2019

NoTimeToWait wrote: »

Add a Match making rating system. So that low-skilled would be matched with low-skilled, pros with pros and cheaters with cheaters ;P Though in ESO it edges on impossible

Theoretically we already have something like that but in practice there simply aren't enough players in BGs.

Agenericname · September 2019

Katahdin wrote: »

I think there needs to be some realization and responsibility on both sides.

PvEers need to understand and accept the fact that it is a pvp zone and yes you are going to die. You have to be willing to educate and prepare yourself just as you have to for any vet trial. Yes the "mechanics" of PvP are a bit more complicated and less obvious than a trial and the learning curve is steeper but the principle is the same nontheless.
If you aren't willing to accept these things, you're gona have a bad time.

PvPers need to understand that new people need to be able to figure things out.
Relentlessly camping the base doors and killing them nonstop will most likely not endear pvp to a new player. Maybe state this in zone to your faction like "Hey guys let's give them a break for 10 minutes and go to the other faction base for a little while". Instead of doing the "hur, hur git gud, L2P noob", maybe offer advice to new players in your alliance at least.

I certainly was killed and rekt enough times when I was new that it's sometimes hard for me to have some empathy when I see an obviously new player. I try to remind myself what it was like and not kill them repeatedly every time I see them.

I love IC, it's an awesome area imo. I'd love for more people to be there more often and to have more things to do there

I was going to say something similar, but you summed it up fairly well.

The only thing(s) that I really could add are, how do you know for certain that its strictly PvPers spawn camping? I doubt it is.

And to PvEers, in many cases, outside of the spawn camping nonsense, PvPers don't always know you're in divines gear. That's often realized after the fact. Several times I've engaged someone from an opposing faction to have them vaporize. It happens, and I won't say that it isn't fun to some extent, but it's not why I go.

Some of the more memorable fights that I have been in were seiges where the attackers outnumbered us and we repelled them. Those fights were long, intense, always hanging by a thread inches from defeat, and absolutely fun. That's why I go.

As to the PvP vs PvE thing and who's more toxic, neither, or both, take your pick. If you think PvP is I doubt you've PUGed much. I have seen people berated, insulted, booted, harassed, etc in PvE. It's not as bad as the forums make it out to be, but some people need to focus on leveling up social skills. I have also seen it in PvP. If we stuck all the PvEers in the same instance of comparable difficulty the results would be roughly the same. It's not exclusive to either. Sometimes people could afford to be a little nicer to each other.

MyKillv2.0 · September 2019

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Every time there is a PvP event that is supposed to attract PvErs to PvP, we get an outcry from PvErs that they don't like being killed in PvP. Some person even got "traumatized"...
But I'm not here to tell people how to man up.

I've created this thread so that people - all people: both PvPers and PvErs could post their ideas on how to make PvP more inviting and friendly for PvErs. I'll post my idea in a separate thread.

Sorry. When I get the bug/itch to play PvP, TESO is not the game I think of....MAYBE if performance was better in Cryoland, I may consider it. I remember when the lag wasn't terrible, I did enjoy my lowbie Blackwater Blade PvP days. The overland siege battle is something different than I can experience in most other games. However since the performance is SO terrible and the map is SO large, I find Cryoland to be more of a chore than a fun experience.

BGs are okay but I get a better PvP experience if I play other PvP games.

Just my opinion. If you enjoy TESO PvP... more power to you.

InvictusApollo · September 2019

Three pages of thread and I've seen maybe three ideas. The rest is whining. Stop whining and shoot with some ideas please.
(I've added "please" so that oversensitive individuals felt better... oh wait - is that condescending of me?)

Major_Lag · September 2019

Wrexsoul wrote: »

Add a new mundus stone (based on a member of The Tribunal) that adds crit resistance so people can go PvP in their divines gear. They won't be on the same level as players wearing inpen trait armor + mundus but it would be a lot better for them then it is now.

Uh, no.

For no-CP PvP at least, you can do reasonably well using 2 crafted sets (one of them being Shacklebreaker).
So that's no real excuse for not crafting a PvP set(s) of Impen gear. Even a CP150 (not 160) set if you want to be cheap, since the difference in stats is only a few %.

And there are many cheap off-meta sets available in Impen trait at guild stores, which are viable for beginner-level PvP.

Finally... let's face it, a completely green PvPer would still die a lot, even if wearing a full meta build.

Proper attention to resource management, self healing, keeping up buffs, etc. makes a lot more of a difference than wearing a meta set or not - especially for an inexperienced player who wouldn't be able to use such sets to their full potential anyway.

Wheresthetea11 · September 2019

I feel like at this point, pvp can’t necessarily be changed to be more friendly and inviting to pve’ers. However, we as a community can spread words of encouragement to any and all pve’ers wanting to dabble in pvp for the first time. If you’re a pve’er wanting to jump into pvp, feel free to make a forum thread and ask questions. Ask for some tips and a few basic builds. In game look for a pvp guild. Or type lfg in a cyrodiil zone chat. I know many players look down upon Zerg play but at the end of the day, it’s very noob friendly and will give newer pvp’ers a better chance at survival than going solo.

Once you get into a pvp zone, embrace death. You will die. A lot. And sometimes, the odds will not be in your favor/it’s a fight you simply won’t win. Take that with a grain of salt and be open to learning. It’s really rewarding to see yourself getting stronger at pvp. And the best part is, it’s all right there. All pvp content is free to play and at the click of a button. As well, a lot of the gear you will use is found in the base game or can be crafted.

So get out there. Get your ass beat. Be prepared to be ganked. Zerged down. And lose in a 1v1 to better players. You will get bagged on occasion. on very rare occasions receive a toxic message, but at the end of the day, that’s pvp in this game. All you can do is keep respawning, theory craft endless possibilities, attempt combos and defensive tactics, maybe even just look up a basic pvp build online.

Be open to learn and at the end of the day, if nothing in pvp brings you joy, accept that its not your cup of tea and continue to excel in pve.

Grow, adapt, learn, even get competitive out there. It may seem daunting at first stepping into a pvp zone, but best of luck to anyone wanting to join pvp. With each death, learn what you could have done differently in the fight and keep on clicking that respawn button. Cheers!

Fur_like_snow · September 2019

how about standardized gear sets in PvP? Not necessarily all modes of PvP of course. But you join a match and you’re given a choice between ten different sets of gear and food/drink you can use based on your class. This way the playing field is even in terms of stats and that might make PvP more inviting for players.

Also separating premades from solo queue but that might be an issue because of a lack of players in the queue.

Major_Lag · September 2019

Chickf1lGay wrote: »

I know many players look down upon Zerg play but at the end of the day, it’s very noob friendly and will give newer pvp’ers a better chance at survival than going solo.

That's the PvP progression for new players.
Start by zerging.
Then once you are comfortable with that and can handle taking some damage, try running with progressively smaller groups.
By the time you can comfortably run with a group of <8 players, get friends/guildies to duel with you and work on 1v1 combat.
Etc. Well, you get the point

Veinblood1965 · September 2019

I just wish we had open world PVP in all zones. Would make it such a fun game.

hasi · September 2019

Remove the PvPers.

BigBragg · September 2019

Dying is okay. Loosing Tel Var is okay. Play for the experience, not the rewards. Keep trying, learn from your mistakes instead of just giving up and blaming everyone and everything else. If you get super tilted, take a break, make some tea, and come back with a clear head ready to have fun.

Loralai_907 · September 2019

I know I've talked a lot about wanting more people to feel comfortable about coming to Cyro and checking it out, without really adding details often as to what things I see as helpful towards that. All I have is my story really, coming from someone who has the social anxiety and didn't really understand how PvP worked, worried (thank you anxiety) about how my personal inability to be helpful starting out might impact my team or how my teammates might react to some obviously new and terrible player. Plus, a lot of what was being written at the time about it made things seem like oh man, people out there are MEAN. Obviously not something I was super excited about dealing with.

I'd watched streamers in Cyro for ages before I worked up the nerve to go. Liquid courage got me through my first couple of PvP sessions. It was honestly the best decision I've made, sure I died all over the place for a while, switching to a different character helped a lot. But it was just being there and paying attention to what other people said in zone chat, going to fights, learning what I should be doing and when. It was discovering that basically no one out in Cyro was hateful in any way, on any faction. All of that is blown so out of proportion. I don't "run" with a group often, I tag along to whatever needs to be done, but again with the social anxiety I have a hard time with people I don't know. I like a lot of the people on my side a lot (and the other factions too really), its not like I don't like being around them, I just don't know them know them. But the goal is to keep getting over myself and get in with a group at some point.

But, I have always been open about being willing to toss all my nonsense to the side and take people out to Cyro with me. I don't know ALL the things, but I know enough to help people get started and help them not maybe be so overwhelmed or if they also have some anxieties, maybe help make that less by being kind of a safe person who understands what that is like. Just a couple of things can help, not treating new people super bad, keep making call outs and telling people what is needed during defenses/offenses, don't be hateful. Changing the narrative a bit too, if all people see is how awful the people are, of course they aren't going to be excited about checking it out. Which is part of what got me riled up about the base camping in IC. It says, the people are mean and this is not a fun time. I don't want that to be what is taken away from this event, potentially painting all PvP as "bad" for people who haven't spent time in Cyro yet.

Ydrisselle · September 2019

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Three pages of thread and I've seen maybe three ideas. The rest is whining. Stop whining and shoot with some ideas please.
(I've added "please" so that oversensitive individuals felt better... oh wait - is that condescending of me?)

A question: is spawn camping PvP, if the other player(s) can't even fight back since they are still in a loading screen? I'm sure some will say yes, and some will say no. I think as long as it's completely impossible to fight back, it's not - and if somebody's first PvP experience is that, it's not a very good first impression and it may lead to instantly refusing to participate in any kind of PvP...

gabriebe · September 2019

They could start by gearing up for it? I don't show up in impen in PvE trials thinking i'll do great, I don't know why they should think that they won't vaporize in all divine armor in PvP.

jainiadral · September 2019

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

how about standardized gear sets in PvP? Not necessarily all modes of PvP of course. But you join a match and you’re given a choice between ten different sets of gear and food/drink you can use based on your class. This way the playing field is even in terms of stats and that might make PvP more inviting for players.

Also separating premades from solo queue but that might be an issue because of a lack of players in the queue.

Honestly, this could help. I really liked the GW2 sPvP approach of standardizing stats through a separate interface. So you're on equal gear footing at the beginning of a match. I'd die a lot, cuz I suck, but I lived long enough to see what I did wrong so I could actually learn.

ZeroXFF · September 2019

1. Make divines and infused gear not useless in PvP (buff the lady mundus, or make something nobody uses into an impen mundus).

2. Make light and medium armor not a death sentence in PvP, otherwise the only PvP that will be enjoyable for PvEers will be capping flags and carrying the ball in BGs, and only when they are on their permablock tanks.

3. Implement a PvP flagging system similar to what WoW has on PvE servers (if we get such a thing, I see no reason to not make all the PvE zones PvP enabled too, so PvPers will stop crying about lack of PvP content for a while too, win-win).

4. Remove Tel Var loss on PvP death in IC, replace it with a system that doesn't penalize people for dying more than dying itself does.

Now here are a few that would require a significant game rework, but they would help in a major way too:
5. Get rid of the CP/noCP divide, either by rebalancing the game around nobody having CP, or by balancing PvP around having them.

6. Get rid of battle spirit, instead double all sources of HP, damage in PvE, healing (except for the HP% heals since those are already doubled due to HP increase) and add a passive skill to the Assault line that you can unlock at rank 2 that causes players who take damage from you or do damage to you to get a healing debuff that lasts for 20s and spreads to everyone who heals or buffs targets already affected.

Reasons:
1, 2, 5, 6: Make the transition between PvE and PvP seamless. Stats should not change just because you are now in a different zone. What your build can do in PvE it should be capable of doing in PvP instead of being weirdly buff-nerfed without the player ever seeing a reason for why you're suddenly doing half the damage. In this regard it would be better to not even have the debuff for healing that I suggested and instead not buff healing along with HP, but then PvE healing would be too weak, and I frankly have no idea how to address it in a different way. The upside would be that people will actually have the info about the healing debuff put in front of them, it won't be some unknown thing that is just suddenly there for no reason.

3: People who don't want to PvP shouldn't be forced into it. Most of the hate comes from the fact that PvP consists of cowardly ambushes and not honorable combat with the consent of all participants. You'll find that PvEers hate BGs and duels a lot less than other PvP modes, because they are indeed made exclusively for PvP, you literally can't do anything else there. But as long as there is any PvE component involved whatsoever, there will be people who want to do it without being harassed by gankers.

4: Similar to 3, but this one is literally the reason why IC is a ghost town. If you did nothing else but this, you'd see a lot more people there right away, even if the Tel Var drop rate was halved to compensate.

Katahdin · September 2019

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

I just wish we had open world PVP in all zones. Would make it such a fun game.

It would make it a dead game in about a month or less.

TheRealPotoroo · September 2019

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Every time there is a PvP event that is supposed to attract PvErs to PvP, we get an outcry from PvErs that they don't like being killed in PvP. Some person even got "traumatized"...
But I'm not here to tell people how to man up.

I've created this thread so that people - all people: both PvPers and PvErs could post their ideas on how to make PvP more inviting and friendly for PvErs. I'll post my idea in a seperate thread.

1. ZOS must implement a Dressing Room so that everybody has a minimum of two completely (and I mean COMPLETELY) distinct setups and switching between setups has no cost. It's too time consuming and expensive to do it manually. Everybody then gets to have whatever they consider a decent Divines set and a decent Impen set (you know what I mean).

2. The Dressing Room would be an inherent good but it would also allow ZOS to completely separate balancing of PVE and PVP sets, skills, passives and even their revamped CP system (whatever that will be). No game has ever successfully balanced two modes as different as PVE and PVP because their requirements are too different. Better balancing in each mode would, again, be an inherent good.

3. Prevent ganking. Before you jump down my throat, remember that the question is how to make PVP more inviting to PVE players and as a dedicated PVE player I'm telling you that getting killed by someone I never even see is the single most loathsome aspect of a mode that I dislike anyway (and that's even before any consideration of the consequences of being killed, which are more serious in PVP -- you lose not only Tel Var potentially but also genuinely noticeable chunks of your time as you struggle to get back to far side of the gigantic map to get back to whatever it was you were doing). Instead, think carefully about what it says about PVP as a mode that it is enabled in the first place and why it is so obnoxious to so many people.

Of course, none of the above will ever happen because that would require ZOS admitting they got this fundamental thing completely wrong for five years. Which they have.

iamkeebler · September 2019

As a player that jumps between PvE and PvP content, I think making the PvP zones better for PvE players is dependent on that PvE player wanting to learn the ropes of PvP. Ask to join a group, create a toon design to play in PvP, accept your many many deaths. I like the different styles of game play for each style. I like how PvE is all rotation/mechanics based and that PvP tends to be skill, experience, and knowledge of the area based. No one area in ESO is better than another.

I will say, those that rage quit PvP as a PvE player and demand PvP changes drive me nuts. These zones are supposed to force a different style of play to make the game more robust and more inviting and more fun. Is it frustrating as all hell while you try to learn PvP? Absolutely. But if you don’t put the time and effort to learn it in the same way you put time and effort to learn your trials and dungeons, you’re just being whiny and causing those of us who have put in that effort to laugh. These many many many forum posts show that.

So give it a try, reach out to a PvP guild or type LFG in chat and take a moment to learn how to play this portion of the game instead of trying to change it for all of us who enjoy it as is.

Arthg · September 2019

With how frequent calls are from PewPewEers on these forums to remove the PvP part of the game altogether - the only gesture we can make is to smack and stomp them, and ruthlessly take their Telvar over and over again.