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Blackheart Haven - can it be soloed (without WW)? YES IT CAN! Even on Vet!

  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    Nestor wrote: »
    Last time I did this fight, light attacks were devastating to the boss when I was turned to a skeleton. Problem is the adds.

    Yep. As far as I remember, you can not use skills when in skeleton form. I am not sure about potions and if your recurse recoveries are affected by this, but if not, then:
    - Craft some blue infused jewellery with potion cool-down enchants.
    - Use some high health recovery sets to overcome the dmg.
    - If you can not use skills, you can not gap-close the adds. So you could try running 3 swift jewellery to have better mobility.
    - Technically, you could try running resto staff and heavy attack adds to heal yourself & kill them. Adds in this fight are quite weak tbh. They simply spawn very fast.
    - You can also try some sets (like Aspect of Mazzatun) that restore your health & resources if your when low or health or when you take damage etc.

    You can swap the sets just before the final boss. Also, if you want to farm weapons & jewellery fast, you can do it on a NB or just use invisibility potions. As far as I know the only additional boss you need to kill in order to reach the final boss, is the 2nd boss - Atarus (Ogrim).
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on September 7, 2019 9:21AM
  • beadabow
    beadabow
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    Wow! Nice job! And excellent critical thinking to solve the transformation puzzle!
  • Major_Lag
    Major_Lag
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    Yep. As far as I remember, you can not use skills when in skeleton form. I am not sure about potions and if your recurse recoveries are affected by this, but if not, then:
    - (...)
    Lol, just read one of my earlier posts, where everything is explained in detail. Many of your tips are quite inaccurate, or even flat out wrong - such as the "tip" about using a resto staff, which will NOT work (in skele form you can only use the "special" skele attack).

    As for mobility - in fact, for this fight you want to SNARE YOURSELF to be able to survive it :D
    (edit: and it's a very stationary fight, so you will be standing in 1 spot all the time, too!)

    Edited by Major_Lag on September 7, 2019 9:57AM
  • MehrunesFlagon
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    Couldn't you just nuke him before he has a chance to do that.Seems to reason if even on vet if you can get him reasonably close to death,before transformation.A quick burn on normal should be no issue.This is providing you don't move him at all,which I find tanks always have to do a 30 second slog to the damn cliff.To point out is a complete waste of time and dps resources,but that is another topic.
  • Major_Lag
    Major_Lag
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    Couldn't you just nuke him before he has a chance to do that.
    Solo? I'd LOVE to see that.

    I haven't timed this exactly, but you have about 20 seconds from the first hit on the boss until he transforms you for the 1st time.

    On Normal he has ~1.61.3 million HP. You would need >60k self buffed DPS on a non-debuffed boss, good luck with that.
    (edit: I was wrong about his HP on Normal)
    Edited by Major_Lag on September 8, 2019 7:42AM
  • kylewwefan
    kylewwefan
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    Good job! I was thinking there’s a few other sets that could put in some work for you. Id probably keep leeching and definitely use lingering health pots.

    Maybe throw in Thunderbug, Defending Warrior, Hand of Mephala, Cyrodiil Crest.

    If you could live without Mighty Chudan, I’d think Grothdar would majorly help speed things up a bit.

    But the hard part has been done. To see if it is possible. Great work on that! I tend to think whatever weapons you choose to use are highly irrelevant, but S/B would be best options as your sets are gonna do all the work for you.
    PlayStation NA
    1000+ CP
    DC Khajit NB Stormproof Flawless Conqueror
    DC Argonian Templar Stormproof Flawless Conqueror
    DC Dark Elf Sorc Stormproof
    DC High Elf NB Stormproof
    DC Dark Elf DK Stormproof
    AD Redguard DK Stormproof Flawless Conqueror
    DC Orc Warden Stormproof Flawless Conqueror
    DC Breton Warden Stormproof Flawless Conqueror
    DC Redguard Sorc Stormproof
    DC Redguard Templar Stormproof Flawless Conqueror
    DC Nord Necromancer Stormproof
    DC Breton Necromancer Stormproof Flawless Conqueror

    PlayStation EU
    258 CP
    DC Orc Warden Stormproof
  • Major_Lag
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    I don't think it's very plausible (or even at all possible?) without the RotH + self snare trick, there's still a lot of incoming damage that you need to heal through. And of course Leeching Plate is a must-have.

    Maybe it would be possible by using Leeching + Reactive + Chudan + self snare from hindrance potion (to proc Reactive), but I did not test that combination. It should be a workable alternative, though.

    As for Crit Surge, actually it isn't THAT important - you can make do without it, esp. if you use Mighty Chudan and/or use optimal CP allocation (I used a suboptimal allocation).
    This also means that it's viable on classes other than Sorc, although it results in somewhat narrowing the selection of possible gear setups that will work on non-Sorcs, because you lose the heals from Surge.

    With this setup, monster set choice is highly noncritical, just about anything would work. I used Shadowrend, as you can see in the screenshot.

    Mighty Chudan would be OK, but a damage set would be better - at this point you don't need more resists/tankiness, and the DPS on the boss is atrociously low, so any extra damage output helps speed it up a bunch. It won't affect survivability though - if you can survive the first 3 minutes then you can survive the whole fight, no matter how long it takes.
    Sellistrix, Valkyn Skoria, etc., those are decent options. Basically, use whatever you have available that procs on doing or taking damage :)

    As for weapon choice - yeah, it's highly irrelevant, since you will be spending >90% of the time in skele form anyway.

    Edit: Cyrodiil's Crest probably won't work, the amount of healing you can get from it pales in comparison to RotH + self snare, never mind the heals from Leeching Plate if you get the positioning right.
    And blocking in this fight isn't a viable option in the long term, you have no way to restore stamina (no abilities) and you are eating so many projectiles that your stamina would drain SUPER fast even with all Sturdy gear.
    Edited by Major_Lag on September 7, 2019 1:21PM
  • SirLeeMinion
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    Major_Lag wrote: »
    Sorry for double post, but here's a bunch more insight to chew on, based on the results of further testing.

    Ladies and gentlemen, WE HAVE A WINNER!

    And the winner is... LEECHING PLATE! B)

    More specifically: Leeching Plate (5x body), RotH (jewelry + lightning staff).
    I used Shadowrend for monster set, but it doesn't matter too much.
    Pop potions of HINDRANCE + lingering health on cooldown. Crit Surge on cooldown.

    Nicely done, and your observations are worth a re-read when I have more time! It reminds me of soloing Malubeth the Scourger in Wayrest 2 in that you do it once to see if you can, and then you never do it again because it just isn't worth the time; That said, I wonder about two applications:

    The first is Ruzozuzalpamaz in Crypt of Hearts 2. To date, I've only done this boss solo on pet sorc (though warden probably could, too), and positioning so the spawned mobs go after the pet(s) is super important. Your strategy might make this soloable on non-pet classes. Though the time involved would be a hindrance.

    Secondly, I wonder about the application of leeching plate to AFK leveling (with a modified build removing the hindrance potion and replacing the hist set).
  • mague
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    Secondly, I wonder about the application of leeching plate to AFK leveling (with a modified build removing the hindrance potion and replacing the hist set).

    No need to trample on the "honest soloer's reputation" please.

    @Major_Lag
    Very well done and quite some dedication. Usually i get very angry when hitting useless dps checks combined with those solo preventing mechanics. I dont like angry and stop before killing my screen ;)

    Companies should play their own dungeons with a god mode buffed char to see if it is soloable in a distant future. If not, the content has a design flaw.
  • Major_Lag
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    Your strategy might make this soloable on non-pet classes. Though the time involved would be a hindrance.
    Speaking of positioning: the Leeching Plate strat will only work well in cases where you can get the trashmobs to stack up nicely in one place, so that the LP proc will hit a lot of them, giving you massive healing.

    In fights where the trashmobs are highly spread out and tend to stay put (instead of charging at the player) this is much less useful.
    One example that comes to mind is the final boss in Selene's Web, that one is soloable of course but the trashmobs spawn in endlessly, all over the place, and they are very reluctant to move from their inital spawn points.
    mague wrote: »
    Usually i get very angry when hitting useless dps checks combined with those solo preventing mechanics. I dont like angry and stop before killing my screen ;)

    Companies should play their own dungeons with a god mode buffed char to see if it is soloable in a distant future. If not, the content has a design flaw.
    Well, those are GROUP dungeons, designed for 4 player groups... so technically they don't HAVE to be soloable. As it happens, most of them are.

    Same goes for overland world bosses: they are not designed to be soloed, and some (Wuyuvus) are very difficult to solo because of the mechanics.

    Also, soloing the group content is generally not time-efficient.
    I solo dungeons once to complete the quest and read all books etc. at my own pace, and after that I'd much rather farm with a group, just because it's faster.

    Some of the "non-soloable" content appears to be in fact outright impossible, but there are ways around the issue.
    For example the Cap'n in BH, or the pressure plate mechanic in Direfrost Keep which can be bypassed by abusing a design flaw in the dungeon geometry.

    Edit:
    Secondly, I wonder about the application of leeching plate to AFK leveling (with a modified build removing the hindrance potion and replacing the hist set).
    In fact, you can use RotH just fine... all you need is to farm some mobs which frequently apply snares, so that you are perma-snared for maximum RotH uptime.

    Using CC-spamming mobs would also work, but it's less effective, because you get guaranteed CC immunity after the CC ends - so the RotH uptime would be much less.

    BTW, this has curious implications when it comes to the ToS.
    Technically you are not allowed to use any programs or devices which automate what is supposed to be human (player) input.
    But what about using in-game means, such as this?
    The only snag would be that you would still be subject to the AFK logout timer.
    Edited by Major_Lag on September 9, 2019 2:14PM
  • SirLeeMinion
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    Major_Lag wrote: »
    The only snag would be that you would still be subject to the AFK logout timer.

    I wonder about that, because you would eternally be 'in combat.' ... Back when mobs used to knock you into the walls, I would get stuck until I hard quit the game. I couldn't use /stuck because 'in combat' and couldn't log out normally for the same reason. More recently, just prior to update 23, I was trying to complete vMA on my low cp account and got feared into the wall on the final round of arena five. After spending 10 minutes not dying to the water, unable to target the boss, and unable to dodge or move to get unstuck, I left in disgust. Some moderately long time later (but less than a half hour as my monitor hadn't powered down) my character was still logged on, still in combat, and still stuck.

    I suppose they could label AFK proc set grinding an exploit, though how it is worse than lying dead in Skyreach catacombs as someone grinds for you, I can't imagine. So far as violating the ToS, it's not external automation in any way shape or form. Anyhow, it isn't what the thread is about, so I'll leave it at that. Again, nice job!
  • Major_Lag
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    Not exactly related to BH, but still relevant for soloing dungeons:

    Today I've soloed nSW.
    Both the Khajit midboss, as well as Selene herself, are SUPER annoying fights because of the sheer amount of CC you get spammed with.

    At first I tried to use a somewhat modified 1-bar vMA build, with Julianos+MS sets and 1 pet (clannfear).
    This resulted in wiping a few times on both fights, eventually I ran out of time on Selene (had to go to work) and needed to abandon the attempt.

    On my 2nd attempt, I used a resto staff on backbar, slotted Illustrious and Radiating, moved buffs to backbar and put Degen+Soultrap on frontbar. Not exactly a "proper" build, but good enough for a normal non-DLC dungeon.
    This worked A LOT better, because of all the extra healing. I still wiped 2 times on Selene with this setup, but that was due to operator error, not the build's fault.

    Even then, there were some VERY close moments when I was down to nearly 0 health - mostly due to running out of stamina from the heavy CC spam, and getting caught CCed right inside Selene's bear summon AoE. But because I had some pretty serious healing ticking on me, I was back to full health in 2-3 seconds :)

    TL;dr - this kind of fight is where the RotH set would be PERFECT for a 1-bar build.
    No need for a potion of hindrance, either - the boss and the adds will happily provide constant snares/CC for free :D

    Not to mention that a lot of the bosses have UNBREAKABLE CC - such as Selene's "pull" CC, if you get hit by that and your heals run out, you are hosed. Whereas RotH will at least keep you alive long enough to reapply heals/buffs after the CC ends.
  • StytchFingal
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    @Major_Lag. Vet Blackheart pledge solo with a Khajiit magsorc non-ww on Live server.

    Hist Sap didn't work for me. Good old Bahraha's and Leeching Plate, with Grothdarr. Not even sure I need the lingering (& hindrance) health pots. Bar was 1h/shield: Sanguine Altar; Crit Surge, Volatile Familiar (useless), Channeled Acceleration (useless) Bound Aegis; Reviving Barrier (Storm Atro probably would have been better).

    Tried Hist Sap and Leeching a few times first with the hindrance pots., but only lasted until the 2nd or 3rd skeleton curse. All attributes in mag.

    screenshot_20190919_202340.png?w=640

    screenshot_20190919_202402-1.png?w=640

    screenshot_20190919_202553.png?w=640

    screenshot_20190919_202615-1.png?w=640


  • Major_Lag
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    Based on where the boss died, it looks like your positioning was suboptimal.

    To get the best result, you really need to stand in the very corner - this forces all the ranged adds to stack in 1 spot.
    If you do that, it's possible that Crit Surge wouldn't be needed (edit: I mean, on Normal!), although I have not tested that.

    Positioning is absolutely crucial with this approach, because the adds appear to spawn in without limit.
    If ALL of the ranged adds aren't standing in the same spot to die in the Leeching Plate proc, you will eventually get overwhelmed and die.

    Edit: oh wait, you did that on Vet? Congrats, I didn't notice that at first :)

    Your finding about Bahraha's is interesting, I was not able to make it work in my attempts on Normal.
    My problem was that it was effectively impossible to proc it under the archers, since you need to deal damage to proc the effect.
    Running out towards the archers does not work, as soon as that group dies, the next group will stack up closer to the spawn point, and you end up "lured back" towards the center of the beach, where you get rapidly overwhelmed and die.
    Edited by Major_Lag on September 20, 2019 4:05AM
  • StytchFingal
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    Major_Lag wrote: »
    Based on where the boss died, it looks like your positioning was suboptimal.

    To get the best result, you really need to stand in the very corner - this forces all the ranged adds to stack in 1 spot.
    If you do that, it's possible that Crit Surge wouldn't be needed (edit: I mean, on Normal!), although I have not tested that.

    Positioning is absolutely crucial with this approach, because the adds appear to spawn in without limit.
    If ALL of the ranged adds aren't standing in the same spot to die in the Leeching Plate proc, you will eventually get overwhelmed and die.

    No position seemed to work for me with Hist Sap, even as far into the corner as I could get. Not sure if touched the wall. I may give it another go today if I have time, make sure I get right in the notch and see if that helps.

    Leeching/Bahraha's/Grothdarr worked very well where I was situated for the fight; most of archers grouped at near the waterline with Leech consistently proccing under them while 1-3 would occasionally run over to Blackheart and me to stand in Bahraha procs from my light attacks, which happened very consistently. My health dipped under 50% a number of times, but refilled very quickly.
  • Major_Lag
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    Oh OK, it sounds that your positioning was good enough then; the adds behaved more or less the same way in my nBH attempt when I was standing in the extreme corner.

    I have not attempted vBH yet - and with the current state of the PTS I don't care to try anytime soon, either.

    The incoming damage on Vet must be brutal; on Normal I was able to facetank up to about 10 adds by using RotH but without Leeching Plate (that was in my early attempts, before I found a setup that worked).

    As I have alluded to in my last post, I'm pretty sure that on Normal you could do just fine without utilizing Crit Surge at all, just by using RotH + Leeching - which means that it should be doable by any class, not just Sorc.


    So you were relying on Leeching to proc under the archers and Bahraha's proccing under the melee adds, is that correct?

    When I tried using Bahraha's + RotH (again, one of the early attempts), I tried to kite the boss + melee adds while attacking the archers, but that did not work even on Normal.
  • StytchFingal
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    Major_Lag wrote: »

    As I have alluded to in my last post, I'm pretty sure that on Normal you could do just fine without utilizing Crit Surge at all, just by using RotH + Leeching - which means that it should be doable by any class, not just Sorc.


    So you were relying on Leeching to proc under the archers and Bahraha's proccing under the melee adds, is that correct?

    When I tried using Bahraha's + RotH (again, one of the early attempts), I tried to kite the boss + melee adds while attacking the archers, but that did not work even on Normal.

    It is possible that Crit surge isn't even necessary on the sorc in vet. I will let you know when I get a chance.

    And yes, Leeching under the archer's and Bahraha's under the melees and the boss.

    The reason, I think, that Leeching Plate, Bahraha's Curse, and Grothdarr work so well together is that the Poisoned status from LP procs BC and G, with the less frequent Burning status from G also proccing BC. Very synergistic, while the sets obey the ZoS conditions of not proccing each other or critting. All of that happens secondarily, through the status effects. The crits from Burning and Poisoned do, of course, make Crit Surge work (so maybe it is necessary, or Power Surge with Hist Sap?). We'll see.
  • Major_Lag
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    Wait. Can Bahraha's proc multiple AoEs at the same time, or is it limited to just 1 at a time?
    The set description does not make that clear, and it doesn't have a cooldown either.

    BTW, it was very clever with the sets effectively proccing each other, despite that not being normally intended :)

    One thing I did not try was to use Troll King, as I wasn't sure that it would even proc under these circumstances. Haven't tested to see whether the lingering health potion can proc it.
    I guess it could work with Power Surge, although the reduced healing from PS would roughly cancel out any extra healing from TK.

    Edit: I also went back and added a link for your Vet clear to the OP, you damn well deserve it :)
    Edited by Major_Lag on September 20, 2019 3:52PM
  • StytchFingal
    StytchFingal
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    Bahraha's can proc multiple times at once. I watched carefully this time, and it will sometimes proc under the archers when they're affected by the Poisoned status; so, at those times, there are double heals coming from the archers. There are also sometimes both (multiple) Bahraha and Leeching procs under the boss and melee adds. It is, obviously, ideal to keep the boss and melee adds (and, as a result, the archers) as still as possible so they don't move out of the procs and stop healing you.

    Any spot from the slope where I did it in the screenshot back to the innermost point of the notch worked with the BC/LPGrothdarr setup. I was using 1h/shield because that's what i had available in BC, but that skill line is not maxed on that character and there no skill points at all invested in it.

    i could not, sadly, get Hist Sap and LP to keep me alive on vet. And for the other setup it turns out I did need to have Sanguine Altar and Crit surge running as much as possible with lingering health pots on cooldown.

    I'll try it early in the week with other classes to see how they do.
  • Major_Lag
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    Ok, thanks for the intel on Bahraha's - I only tried it for a short time on Live, wasn't thrilled with it, and that was the end of that.
    I was under the impression that it can only proc a single desecrated ground at a time, which would make it quite a bad set.

    (incidentally: @ZOS, please make the proc set descriptions more... well, descriptive... so that it's more clear how they actually work!)

    A single spot of desecrated ground is far worse of a heal than RotH's guaranteed nonstop heal, which is why I didn't experiment with it further in my attempt.
    And that was before I started using LP, so I was not seeing the chain proc effect, either.

    1H+S is actually the most optimal choice for this application IMO, since the shield adds a little extra resistances and allows placing another armor enchant.

    As for other classes on vet, this could be tough - Crit Surge is a massive "free" heal with a very long duration, in fact it can outlast the skele form debuff.
    Off the top of my head, can't think of any other class ability (from the other classes) which could match Crit Surge in that regard - they are all either much too short lasting, or don't provide nearly enough healing (or both!).
  • StytchFingal
    StytchFingal
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    Major_Lag wrote: »

    As for other classes on vet, this could be tough - Crit Surge is a massive "free" heal with a very long duration, in fact it can outlast the skele form debuff.
    Off the top of my head, can't think of any other class ability (from the other classes) which could match Crit Surge in that regard - they are all either much too short lasting, or don't provide nearly enough healing (or both!).

    Nord DK wasn't particularly tough on vet. Mostly the same armour setup as above, BC/LP, but with Bloodspawn monster set (I suspect Kra'gh would have worked as well, since the pen buffs both BC and LP). No Lingering Health pots this time, just crafted tri-pots and Sanguine Altar, occasional M Ward/Resolve from Hardened Armor.

    Again, the only things I had to do were LA, re-apply Altar and use pots on cooldonwn. I occasionally hit Spell Wall, but it didn't really figure into things as I was almost always at fully health or regenning health when it was available to me. I'll try a squishier race/class combo next time.

    Edited by StytchFingal on September 23, 2019 7:32PM
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