VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Been playing MMOs for 20 years. Been playing this one for almost 5 years.

So what am I waiting for ? Simple enough : I'm waiting for PvP to become fun, with sportsmanship and without trolls.

I suppose I'll wait 20 more years, and I'm being optimistic here.

You must not play any real team sports irl then. Certainly nothing like that occurs there

In real team sports the teams are generally kept even. You don't have 10 vs 1 - because that would make for a pretty stupid game.

Team sports have rules.

So does PVP. PVP in ESO allows and intends to create unbalanced fights. If you don't want that, duel. For those of us who like that, and who accept that this is how PVP is designed and intended, its not a stupid game. It can actually be a fun challenge.

You don't have to like it. You do have to accept that's how PVP works, by design. Working as intended.

I notice that a good many complaints come from people who have problems accepting PVP as it is, rather than PVP as they want it to be.

No one says you have to like PVP as it is. But complaining that PVP wasn't designed to fit your tastes seems kinda silly to me.

Its just a recipe for disappointment.

Oh it's not only stupid when people gang up on others with grotesquely unfair odds - but it is extremely stupid. And there is certainly nothing fun or challenging about it either.

I was pointing out facts, not really complaining. Comparing the stupid crap that goes on in Imperial City to real team sports was just a terrible comparison.

I would also love to see you come fight me and 5 other of my buddies Varanis and see how much of a fun challenge you have trying to 1 vs 6 us? Oh - and lose your stones every time you die while trying to do it (because that's what you are going to do - is die.) I can promise you the last thing you will be having while doing that is fun.

You have a PvP guild and run around with a team helping you. So you are in an entirely different circumstance than a lot of the others being massacred in Imperial City. You need to keep that in mind. Not everyone is so lucky as you.

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Been playing MMOs for 20 years. Been playing this one for almost 5 years.

So what am I waiting for ? Simple enough : I'm waiting for PvP to become fun, with sportsmanship and without trolls.

I suppose I'll wait 20 more years, and I'm being optimistic here.

You must not play any real team sports irl then. Certainly nothing like that occurs there

In real team sports the teams are generally kept even. You don't have 10 vs 1 - because that would make for a pretty stupid game.

Team sports have rules.

So does PVP. PVP in ESO allows and intends to create unbalanced fights. If you don't want that, duel. For those of us who like that, and who accept that this is how PVP is designed and intended, its not a stupid game. It can actually be a fun challenge.

You don't have to like it. You do have to accept that's how PVP works, by design. Working as intended.

I notice that a good many complaints come from people who have problems accepting PVP as it is, rather than PVP as they want it to be.

No one says you have to like PVP as it is. But complaining that PVP wasn't designed to fit your tastes seems kinda silly to me.

Its just a recipe for disappointment.

Oh it's not only stupid when people gang up on others with grotesquely unfair odds - but it is extremely stupid. And there is certainly nothing fun or challenging about it either.

I was pointing out facts, not really complaining. Comparing the stupid crap that goes on in Imperial City to real team sports was just a terrible comparison.

I would also love to see you come fight me and 5 other of my buddies Varanis and see how much of a fun challenge you have trying to 1 vs 6 us? Oh - and lose your stones every time you die while trying to do it (because that's what you are going to do - is die.) I can promise you the last thing you will be having while doing that is fun.

You have a PvP guild and run around with a team helping you. So you are in an entirely different circumstance than a lot of the others being massacred in Imperial City. You need to keep that in mind. Not everyone is so lucky as you.

Chill out. I solo in IC. My guild plays in Cyrodiil. And yeah, I die a lot in Imperial City. I can't get too worked up about it.

We've also moved a little far afield of describing PvPvE in IC and into the realm of opinion, so I'd like to clarify a little.

I'm not trying to tell you that your complaint is a wrong opinion to hold. I'm trying to tell you how PVP is designed and intended.

You can hoId whatever opinion you like. But PVP works the way it does as designed and intended by ZOS, and that's independent of any opinion.

Okay, hope that helped.


Now for my opinion on having fun, since you challenged me to a hypothetical forum duel with you and your 5 friends

I have fun in PVP because I accept PVP for what it is. If I fight you and and your 5 buddies on the way to a boss, I will die. I will rez up, respawn elsewhere, and find something else in Imperial City to do, like fighting a different boss. And I will have fun, because I accept that dying in PVP is normal, okay, and nothing worth being upset over.

I don't expect to win every fight or to never lose progress. I expect to fight outnumbered and to die when I do, to rez up, and either try again or to figure out another way to accomplish my goal. Win or lose, PVP is fun for me, even when I die horribly outnumbered, because my attitude is such that "fun" isnt destroyed by losing. For me, the fun comes from playing, from fighting, from winning and losing, from picking myself up again and trying to accomplish my goal some other way. I may not accomplish my goal, but I'll have fun along the way!

I don't know how you define "fun" for you. I suspect, given past conversations, that we have very different definitions. I have a pretty good guess that you don't much like PVP as it is.

I won't mind dying to you and your 5 friends. I will still have fun. For me, that's business as usual in Imperial City. Its water off a duck.

I'm getting the feeling that's not true for you.


So what does that mean for our ongoing conversations?

I truly think you'd have a better time if you accepted PVP as it is, rather than tying your idea of "fun in PVP" to how you wish PVP worked. Most of your complaints I look at and think "I dunno what you want. This is just how PVP works. Accept it and have fun, or don't and continue to be annoyed by PVP working as intended."

So I dunno what you want, even now.

PVP is designed and working as intended to create unfair matchups. Even BGs has lots of times where players can gang up on someone separated from their theorectically equal teams.

You can accept it as I do and have fun.
Or you can not accept it and continue to be annoyed when nothing changes, because PVP is working as intended.

I guess I don't understand the point of the latter. Maybe you can let me know?

TequilaFire wrote: »

Ah but there are players who live for and can take on 10 players by themselves.
Different strokes, different folks.

Well I do none CP PvP exclusively - and have never seen anyone even remotely come close to being able to take on 10 players by themselves. So until I actually see this happen - I'll continue to believe it's a myth. Because all I ever see them do against such odds is go splat (which is understandable).

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Been playing MMOs for 20 years. Been playing this one for almost 5 years.

So what am I waiting for ? Simple enough : I'm waiting for PvP to become fun, with sportsmanship and without trolls.

I suppose I'll wait 20 more years, and I'm being optimistic here.

You must not play any real team sports irl then. Certainly nothing like that occurs there

In real team sports the teams are generally kept even. You don't have 10 vs 1 - because that would make for a pretty stupid game.

Team sports have rules.

So does PVP. PVP in ESO allows and intends to create unbalanced fights. If you don't want that, duel. For those of us who like that, and who accept that this is how PVP is designed and intended, its not a stupid game. It can actually be a fun challenge.

You don't have to like it. You do have to accept that's how PVP works, by design. Working as intended.

I notice that a good many complaints come from people who have problems accepting PVP as it is, rather than PVP as they want it to be.

No one says you have to like PVP as it is. But complaining that PVP wasn't designed to fit your tastes seems kinda silly to me.

Its just a recipe for disappointment.

Oh it's not only stupid when people gang up on others with grotesquely unfair odds - but it is extremely stupid. And there is certainly nothing fun or challenging about it either.

I was pointing out facts, not really complaining. Comparing the stupid crap that goes on in Imperial City to real team sports was just a terrible comparison.

I would also love to see you come fight me and 5 other of my buddies Varanis and see how much of a fun challenge you have trying to 1 vs 6 us? Oh - and lose your stones every time you die while trying to do it (because that's what you are going to do - is die.) I can promise you the last thing you will be having while doing that is fun.

You have a PvP guild and run around with a team helping you. So you are in an entirely different circumstance than a lot of the others being massacred in Imperial City. You need to keep that in mind. Not everyone is so lucky as you.

Chill out. I solo in IC. My guild plays in Cyrodiil. And yeah, I die a lot in Imperial City. I can't get too worked up about it.

We've also moved a little far afield of describing PvPvE in IC and into the realm of opinion, so I'd like to clarify a little.

I'm not trying to tell you that your complaint is a wrong opinion to hold. I'm trying to tell you how PVP is designed and intended.

You can hoId whatever opinion you like. But PVP works the way it does as designed and intended by ZOS, and that's independent of any opinion.

Okay, hope that helped.


Now for my opinion on having fun, since you challenged me to a hypothetical forum duel with you and your 5 friends

I have fun in PVP because I accept PVP for what it is. If I fight you and and your 5 buddies on the way to a boss, I will die. I will rez up, respawn elsewhere, and find something else in Imperial City to do, like fighting a different boss. And I will have fun, because I accept that dying in PVP is normal, okay, and nothing worth being upset over.

I don't expect to win every fight or to never lose progress. I expect to fight outnumbered and to die when I do, to rez up, and either try again or to figure out another way to accomplish my goal. Win or lose, PVP is fun for me, even when I die horribly outnumbered, because my attitude is such that "fun" isnt destroyed by losing. For me, the fun comes from playing, from fighting, from winning and losing, from picking myself up again and trying to accomplish my goal some other way. I may not accomplish my goal, but I'll have fun along the way!

I don't know how you define "fun" for you. I suspect, given past conversations, that we have very different definitions. I have a pretty good guess that you don't much like PVP as it is.

I won't mind dying to you and your 5 friends. I will still have fun. For me, that's business as usual in Imperial City. Its water off a duck.

I'm getting the feeling that's not true for you.


So what does that mean for our ongoing conversations?

I truly think you'd have a better time if you accepted PVP as it is, rather than tying your idea of "fun in PVP" to how you wish PVP worked. Most of your complaints I look at and think "I dunno what you want. This is just how PVP works. Accept it and have fun, or don't and continue to be annoyed by PVP working as intended."

So I dunno what you want, even now.

PVP is designed and working as intended to create unfair matchups. Even BGs has lots of times where players can gang up on someone separated from their theorectically equal teams.

You can accept it as I do and have fun.
Or you can not accept it and continue to be annoyed when nothing changes, because PVP is working as intended.

I guess I don't understand the point of the latter. Maybe you can let me know?

I'm perfectly chill. I just think it's incredibly stupid when people zerg down lone individuals or smaller numbers of players - which in my experience is primarily what occurs in Imperial City. I don't understand how you or anyone else can describe that crap as fun and challenging. Where is the fun and challenge in mowing down some poor guy trying to farm stones with a group of players? Sorry. I just don't see it.

Whether it's working as intended or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. It's still stupid regardless. Maybe it was intended to be stupid. But accepting that isn't going to any less dumb to me - and certainly isn't going to make it more fun.

And I wasn't really challenging you to anything. I was just trying to describe a hypothetical in order for you to see this from the other person's perspective. You are in a PvP guild that aids you in Imperial City. That is likely why you find it fun. If you were the lone guy getting rolled over by zergs and losing all his or her stones over a stupid and unfair death they had no chance to defend themselves against you likely wouldn't find the place so fun. That was my point.

As far as what "I want". Nothing, really. It was you who directed your comment at me after all. I was just pointing out the flaws in comparing the Imperial City to real life Team Sports - because the two of them are nothing alike. No one would go watch a foot ball game where you had 10 players vs 1. Why? Because it would be a very stupid and unfair game. Much like Imperial City is.

Why would you use football as an example? People will definitely watch a football game like that, havent you ever heard of double or triple coverage. What about a punt return? Isnt the entire team going after on individual (solo if they break away and have a good run)? Point is IC is no different then any other team sport. I'm not even going to get into rugby, that would blow your mind, but the comparison to real life sports is very valid. Even your own examples less prove it. Look at hockey too, is it unfair to play a 5v4 or 5v3 for a few minutes due to penalties? Do people not enjoy hockey because of this?

The fun is in the challenge of getting the stones back. It is a huge rush when you have tons of stones on you and to you escape the pack and bank it. Same goes for the otherside, I had a good duel with a DC sorc in the sewers and killing him to see 7k telvar as a reward added extra reward to a hard fought battle. You're focusing all on the negatives you percieve in IC so you naturally won't have a good time.

If you're playing IC solo that is your choice and you have no one to blame but yourself. The IC servers are pop locked atm and it's very easy to find or form a group. When the event is over I can see IC being more populated than it was before and even then it shouldn't be too hard to find groups or solo. These aren't problems with IC, they are problems with you.

I used a real life sports as an example because that's what was being used as a comparison.

People would not watch a game where it was an entire team against one person. That would be the most boring and stupid game imaginable. So we disagree.

I also see no fun in trying to get back stones from a zerg that just rolled you. That actually sounds like a very futile and miserable course of action. So good luck having "fun" trying to do that. As to your 1v1 "duel" with a sorcerer in Imperial City - those are so rare in my experience they aren't worth mentioning and no one should expect that to happen when they travel there.

Where we do agree is that anyone who attempts to farm in I.C. alone - especially during this event - and especially if they travel far from their base - are just asking for a miserable death. Which is why I frequently tell people on these forums not to put themselves through the torture of it. Either have a group with you or stay near your base - or roll a Night Blade.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Been playing MMOs for 20 years. Been playing this one for almost 5 years.

So what am I waiting for ? Simple enough : I'm waiting for PvP to become fun, with sportsmanship and without trolls.

I suppose I'll wait 20 more years, and I'm being optimistic here.

You must not play any real team sports irl then. Certainly nothing like that occurs there

In real team sports the teams are generally kept even. You don't have 10 vs 1 - because that would make for a pretty stupid game.

Team sports have rules.

So does PVP. PVP in ESO allows and intends to create unbalanced fights. If you don't want that, duel. For those of us who like that, and who accept that this is how PVP is designed and intended, its not a stupid game. It can actually be a fun challenge.

You don't have to like it. You do have to accept that's how PVP works, by design. Working as intended.

I notice that a good many complaints come from people who have problems accepting PVP as it is, rather than PVP as they want it to be.

No one says you have to like PVP as it is. But complaining that PVP wasn't designed to fit your tastes seems kinda silly to me.

Its just a recipe for disappointment.

Oh it's not only stupid when people gang up on others with grotesquely unfair odds - but it is extremely stupid. And there is certainly nothing fun or challenging about it either.

I was pointing out facts, not really complaining. Comparing the stupid crap that goes on in Imperial City to real team sports was just a terrible comparison.

I would also love to see you come fight me and 5 other of my buddies Varanis and see how much of a fun challenge you have trying to 1 vs 6 us? Oh - and lose your stones every time you die while trying to do it (because that's what you are going to do - is die.) I can promise you the last thing you will be having while doing that is fun.

You have a PvP guild and run around with a team helping you. So you are in an entirely different circumstance than a lot of the others being massacred in Imperial City. You need to keep that in mind. Not everyone is so lucky as you.

Chill out. I solo in IC. My guild plays in Cyrodiil. And yeah, I die a lot in Imperial City. I can't get too worked up about it.

We've also moved a little far afield of describing PvPvE in IC and into the realm of opinion, so I'd like to clarify a little.

I'm not trying to tell you that your complaint is a wrong opinion to hold. I'm trying to tell you how PVP is designed and intended.

You can hoId whatever opinion you like. But PVP works the way it does as designed and intended by ZOS, and that's independent of any opinion.

Okay, hope that helped.


Now for my opinion on having fun, since you challenged me to a hypothetical forum duel with you and your 5 friends

I have fun in PVP because I accept PVP for what it is. If I fight you and and your 5 buddies on the way to a boss, I will die. I will rez up, respawn elsewhere, and find something else in Imperial City to do, like fighting a different boss. And I will have fun, because I accept that dying in PVP is normal, okay, and nothing worth being upset over.

I don't expect to win every fight or to never lose progress. I expect to fight outnumbered and to die when I do, to rez up, and either try again or to figure out another way to accomplish my goal. Win or lose, PVP is fun for me, even when I die horribly outnumbered, because my attitude is such that "fun" isnt destroyed by losing. For me, the fun comes from playing, from fighting, from winning and losing, from picking myself up again and trying to accomplish my goal some other way. I may not accomplish my goal, but I'll have fun along the way!

I don't know how you define "fun" for you. I suspect, given past conversations, that we have very different definitions. I have a pretty good guess that you don't much like PVP as it is.

I won't mind dying to you and your 5 friends. I will still have fun. For me, that's business as usual in Imperial City. Its water off a duck.

I'm getting the feeling that's not true for you.


So what does that mean for our ongoing conversations?

I truly think you'd have a better time if you accepted PVP as it is, rather than tying your idea of "fun in PVP" to how you wish PVP worked. Most of your complaints I look at and think "I dunno what you want. This is just how PVP works. Accept it and have fun, or don't and continue to be annoyed by PVP working as intended."

So I dunno what you want, even now.

PVP is designed and working as intended to create unfair matchups. Even BGs has lots of times where players can gang up on someone separated from their theorectically equal teams.

You can accept it as I do and have fun.
Or you can not accept it and continue to be annoyed when nothing changes, because PVP is working as intended.

I guess I don't understand the point of the latter. Maybe you can let me know?

I'm perfectly chill. I just think it's incredibly stupid when people zerg down lone individuals or smaller numbers of players - which in my experience is primarily what occurs in Imperial City. I don't understand how you or anyone else can describe that crap as fun and challenging. Where is the fun and challenge in mowing down some poor guy trying to farm stones with a group of players? Sorry. I just don't see it.

Whether it's working as intended or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. It's still stupid regardless. Maybe it was intended to be stupid. But accepting that isn't going to any less dumb to me - and certainly isn't going to make it more fun.

And I wasn't really challenging you to anything. I was just trying to describe a hypothetical in order for you to see it this from the other person's perspective. You are in a PvP guild that aids you in Imperial City. That is likely why you find it fun. If you were the lone guy getting rolled over by zergs and losing all his or her stones over a stupid and unfair death they had no chance to defend themselves against you likely wouldn't find the place so fun. That was my point.

As far as what "I want". Nothing, really. It was you who directed your comment at me after all. I was just pointing out the flaws in comparing the Imperial City to real life Team Sports - because the two of them are nothing alike. No one would go watch a foot ball game where you had 10 players vs 1. Why? Because it would be a very stupid and unfair game. Much like Imperial City is.

Okay, I'm getting the feeling that you didnt read what I said at the very beginning.

I solo in IC.

My guild raids in Cyrodiil. A different zone entirely.

Okay?

I still have fun when I'm the solo player being zerged down because I know that's a part of PVP. Which I deliberately queued up for, knowing what to expect.

The rest is pretty much opinion, so I think I'll let that lie. No point in us getting worked up over opinions that arent right or wrong. Just opinion. You are perfectly free to think ESO's PVP design is stupid, just as I'm free to wonder why you still play something you think is stupid.


But let's circle around to the Sports teams analogy, because I'm afraid I may not have been quite clear.

Sports teams have the numbers they do, and the placement of those numbers according to the rules of the game. Some games make players stay in lanes or regions of the court, others don't. Some games limit how many players pile onto one guy, others have different rules. In all organized sports, how you can and can't play is determined by the rules.

You may not like a certain tactic In a given sport, but if its within the rules, its allowed. You can be of the opinion that a tactic is bad, unfun, not challenging, stupid, whatever you wanna call it, but its the rules that decide whether or not something is playing as intended.


I look at PVP the same way. PVP has rules. Those rules differ from a lot of organized sports, because an AvAvA game is structured a lot closer to a spontanteous game of dodgeball with uneven teams, but it still has rules for what is and isnt acceptable.

And in ESO, PVP rules allow for and indeed create situations where players and groups are going to be outnumbered. That's the sort of game it is. It's how PVP is meant to be played in war zones designed for everyone from solo players to groups of 24.

Unlike a 10 to 1 football game, Cyrodiil and IC are designed for 10 to 1 battles, in addition to a whole lot more. No one says you have to find it fun, but it shouldnt be surprising that many players so find it fun on both the side of the 10 and the side of the 1 (or whatever disparity you want to come up with).


So while the specifics change from sport to sport, what doesn't change is that sports and PVP are both played according to their own rules. You can have your own opinion that behavior that falls within the rules is bad, stupid, and unfun, but that's your opinion. Its within the rules and thus playing as intended. Sports don't typically have the numbers disparity, but PVP does, and it's intended.

That was the point I was driving at.

I find it hard to believe you would have fun dying to 6 other people and losing your stones in some ridiculously unfair and one-sided zerg attack in the corridors of Imperial City. But who knows, maybe you do. I can't speak for you I guess. But me and many others don't. But if you actually enjoy being slaughtered by zergs in Imperial City while soloing then I'll concede that point to you.

I already addressed your argument that this is what is "intended". It doesn't matter to me if it was "intended" or not. It's still lame in my opinion and PvP design should work to encourage fairer odds and more interesting combat. It shouldn't pander to the worse elements of PvP like Imperial City does. But I was never claiming it was against the "rules" or wasn't "intended". I was just pointing out how lame it was and how it has no relation to competitive real-life sports - because team sports do not revolve around outnumbering and slaughtering your opponents like PvP on this game typically does.

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Been playing MMOs for 20 years. Been playing this one for almost 5 years.

So what am I waiting for ? Simple enough : I'm waiting for PvP to become fun, with sportsmanship and without trolls.

I suppose I'll wait 20 more years, and I'm being optimistic here.

You must not play any real team sports irl then. Certainly nothing like that occurs there

In real team sports the teams are generally kept even. You don't have 10 vs 1 - because that would make for a pretty stupid game.

Team sports have rules.

So does PVP. PVP in ESO allows and intends to create unbalanced fights. If you don't want that, duel. For those of us who like that, and who accept that this is how PVP is designed and intended, its not a stupid game. It can actually be a fun challenge.

You don't have to like it. You do have to accept that's how PVP works, by design. Working as intended.

I notice that a good many complaints come from people who have problems accepting PVP as it is, rather than PVP as they want it to be.

No one says you have to like PVP as it is. But complaining that PVP wasn't designed to fit your tastes seems kinda silly to me.

Its just a recipe for disappointment.

Oh it's not only stupid when people gang up on others with grotesquely unfair odds - but it is extremely stupid. And there is certainly nothing fun or challenging about it either.

I was pointing out facts, not really complaining. Comparing the stupid crap that goes on in Imperial City to real team sports was just a terrible comparison.

I would also love to see you come fight me and 5 other of my buddies Varanis and see how much of a fun challenge you have trying to 1 vs 6 us? Oh - and lose your stones every time you die while trying to do it (because that's what you are going to do - is die.) I can promise you the last thing you will be having while doing that is fun.

You have a PvP guild and run around with a team helping you. So you are in an entirely different circumstance than a lot of the others being massacred in Imperial City. You need to keep that in mind. Not everyone is so lucky as you.

Chill out. I solo in IC. My guild plays in Cyrodiil. And yeah, I die a lot in Imperial City. I can't get too worked up about it.

We've also moved a little far afield of describing PvPvE in IC and into the realm of opinion, so I'd like to clarify a little.

I'm not trying to tell you that your complaint is a wrong opinion to hold. I'm trying to tell you how PVP is designed and intended.

You can hoId whatever opinion you like. But PVP works the way it does as designed and intended by ZOS, and that's independent of any opinion.

Okay, hope that helped.


Now for my opinion on having fun, since you challenged me to a hypothetical forum duel with you and your 5 friends

I have fun in PVP because I accept PVP for what it is. If I fight you and and your 5 buddies on the way to a boss, I will die. I will rez up, respawn elsewhere, and find something else in Imperial City to do, like fighting a different boss. And I will have fun, because I accept that dying in PVP is normal, okay, and nothing worth being upset over.

I don't expect to win every fight or to never lose progress. I expect to fight outnumbered and to die when I do, to rez up, and either try again or to figure out another way to accomplish my goal. Win or lose, PVP is fun for me, even when I die horribly outnumbered, because my attitude is such that "fun" isnt destroyed by losing. For me, the fun comes from playing, from fighting, from winning and losing, from picking myself up again and trying to accomplish my goal some other way. I may not accomplish my goal, but I'll have fun along the way!

I don't know how you define "fun" for you. I suspect, given past conversations, that we have very different definitions. I have a pretty good guess that you don't much like PVP as it is.

I won't mind dying to you and your 5 friends. I will still have fun. For me, that's business as usual in Imperial City. Its water off a duck.

I'm getting the feeling that's not true for you.


So what does that mean for our ongoing conversations?

I truly think you'd have a better time if you accepted PVP as it is, rather than tying your idea of "fun in PVP" to how you wish PVP worked. Most of your complaints I look at and think "I dunno what you want. This is just how PVP works. Accept it and have fun, or don't and continue to be annoyed by PVP working as intended."

So I dunno what you want, even now.

PVP is designed and working as intended to create unfair matchups. Even BGs has lots of times where players can gang up on someone separated from their theorectically equal teams.

You can accept it as I do and have fun.
Or you can not accept it and continue to be annoyed when nothing changes, because PVP is working as intended.

I guess I don't understand the point of the latter. Maybe you can let me know?

I'm perfectly chill. I just think it's incredibly stupid when people zerg down lone individuals or smaller numbers of players - which in my experience is primarily what occurs in Imperial City. I don't understand how you or anyone else can describe that crap as fun and challenging. Where is the fun and challenge in mowing down some poor guy trying to farm stones with a group of players? Sorry. I just don't see it.

Whether it's working as intended or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. It's still stupid regardless. Maybe it was intended to be stupid. But accepting that isn't going to any less dumb to me - and certainly isn't going to make it more fun.

And I wasn't really challenging you to anything. I was just trying to describe a hypothetical in order for you to see it this from the other person's perspective. You are in a PvP guild that aids you in Imperial City. That is likely why you find it fun. If you were the lone guy getting rolled over by zergs and losing all his or her stones over a stupid and unfair death they had no chance to defend themselves against you likely wouldn't find the place so fun. That was my point.

As far as what "I want". Nothing, really. It was you who directed your comment at me after all. I was just pointing out the flaws in comparing the Imperial City to real life Team Sports - because the two of them are nothing alike. No one would go watch a foot ball game where you had 10 players vs 1. Why? Because it would be a very stupid and unfair game. Much like Imperial City is.

Okay, I'm getting the feeling that you didnt read what I said at the very beginning.

I solo in IC.

My guild raids in Cyrodiil. A different zone entirely.

Okay?

I still have fun when I'm the solo player being zerged down because I know that's a part of PVP. Which I deliberately queued up for, knowing what to expect.

The rest is pretty much opinion, so I think I'll let that lie. No point in us getting worked up over opinions that arent right or wrong. Just opinion. You are perfectly free to think ESO's PVP design is stupid, just as I'm free to wonder why you still play something you think is stupid.


But let's circle around to the Sports teams analogy, because I'm afraid I may not have been quite clear.

Sports teams have the numbers they do, and the placement of those numbers according to the rules of the game. Some games make players stay in lanes or regions of the court, others don't. Some games limit how many players pile onto one guy, others have different rules. In all organized sports, how you can and can't play is determined by the rules.

You may not like a certain tactic In a given sport, but if its within the rules, its allowed. You can be of the opinion that a tactic is bad, unfun, not challenging, stupid, whatever you wanna call it, but its the rules that decide whether or not something is playing as intended.


I look at PVP the same way. PVP has rules. Those rules differ from a lot of organized sports, because an AvAvA game is structured a lot closer to a spontanteous game of dodgeball with uneven teams, but it still has rules for what is and isnt acceptable.

And in ESO, PVP rules allow for and indeed create situations where players and groups are going to be outnumbered. That's the sort of game it is. It's how PVP is meant to be played in war zones designed for everyone from solo players to groups of 24.

Unlike a 10 to 1 football game, Cyrodiil and IC are designed for 10 to 1 battles, in addition to a whole lot more. No one says you have to find it fun, but it shouldnt be surprising that many players so find it fun on both the side of the 10 and the side of the 1 (or whatever disparity you want to come up with).


So while the specifics change from sport to sport, what doesn't change is that sports and PVP are both played according to their own rules. You can have your own opinion that behavior that falls within the rules is bad, stupid, and unfun, but that's your opinion. Its within the rules and thus playing as intended. Sports don't typically have the numbers disparity, but PVP does, and it's intended.

That was the point I was driving at.

I find it hard to believe you would have fun dying to 6 other people and losing your stones in some ridiculously unfair and one-sided zerg attack in the corridors of Imperial City. But who knows, maybe you do. I can't speak for you I guess. But me and many others don't.

I already addressed your argument that this is what is "intended". It doesn't matter to me if it was "intended" or not. It's still lame in my opinion and PvP design should work to encourage fairer odds and more interesting combat. It shouldn't pander to the worse elements of PvP like Imperial City does. But I was never claiming it was against the "rules" or wasn't "intended". I was just pointing out how lame it was and how it has no relation what-so-ever to competitive real-life sports.

And my point is that the relation PVP has to the team sports originally brought up was that both are played according to rules. Unlike a football game that's 10 vs 1, when players in PVP fight in battles with big disparity that's created and intended by the rules of PVP.

I expect PVP to work according to its own rules, just like I expect football, basketball, hockey, etc to work according to their own rules.

The opinion of whether or not we like the numbers diaparity allowed in PVP is just that. Opinion.


And yes, I do have fun even when I'm dying to a zerg and losing my Tel Var. I realize that's not true for everyone, but please, do try to believe that I do mean what I say. I dislike debating with people who assume I'm not speaking in good faith. I try to accord you the same respect - I may not agree, but I trust you are arguing in good faith.

Alucardo wrote: »

Eirinin wrote: »

Nope. Pvp can thrive or die on their own population. I don't care and I'm not rewarding the population spouting 'your pve tears are delicious' players by setting foot in their zone.

Jesus, a simple "No ty" would suffice.

You're right. I should have been more polite.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Been playing MMOs for 20 years. Been playing this one for almost 5 years.

So what am I waiting for ? Simple enough : I'm waiting for PvP to become fun, with sportsmanship and without trolls.

I suppose I'll wait 20 more years, and I'm being optimistic here.

You must not play any real team sports irl then. Certainly nothing like that occurs there

In real team sports the teams are generally kept even. You don't have 10 vs 1 - because that would make for a pretty stupid game.

Team sports have rules.

So does PVP. PVP in ESO allows and intends to create unbalanced fights. If you don't want that, duel. For those of us who like that, and who accept that this is how PVP is designed and intended, its not a stupid game. It can actually be a fun challenge.

You don't have to like it. You do have to accept that's how PVP works, by design. Working as intended.

I notice that a good many complaints come from people who have problems accepting PVP as it is, rather than PVP as they want it to be.

No one says you have to like PVP as it is. But complaining that PVP wasn't designed to fit your tastes seems kinda silly to me.

Its just a recipe for disappointment.

Oh it's not only stupid when people gang up on others with grotesquely unfair odds - but it is extremely stupid. And there is certainly nothing fun or challenging about it either.

I was pointing out facts, not really complaining. Comparing the stupid crap that goes on in Imperial City to real team sports was just a terrible comparison.

I would also love to see you come fight me and 5 other of my buddies Varanis and see how much of a fun challenge you have trying to 1 vs 6 us? Oh - and lose your stones every time you die while trying to do it (because that's what you are going to do - is die.) I can promise you the last thing you will be having while doing that is fun.

You have a PvP guild and run around with a team helping you. So you are in an entirely different circumstance than a lot of the others being massacred in Imperial City. You need to keep that in mind. Not everyone is so lucky as you.

Chill out. I solo in IC. My guild plays in Cyrodiil. And yeah, I die a lot in Imperial City. I can't get too worked up about it.

We've also moved a little far afield of describing PvPvE in IC and into the realm of opinion, so I'd like to clarify a little.

I'm not trying to tell you that your complaint is a wrong opinion to hold. I'm trying to tell you how PVP is designed and intended.

You can hoId whatever opinion you like. But PVP works the way it does as designed and intended by ZOS, and that's independent of any opinion.

Okay, hope that helped.


Now for my opinion on having fun, since you challenged me to a hypothetical forum duel with you and your 5 friends

I have fun in PVP because I accept PVP for what it is. If I fight you and and your 5 buddies on the way to a boss, I will die. I will rez up, respawn elsewhere, and find something else in Imperial City to do, like fighting a different boss. And I will have fun, because I accept that dying in PVP is normal, okay, and nothing worth being upset over.

I don't expect to win every fight or to never lose progress. I expect to fight outnumbered and to die when I do, to rez up, and either try again or to figure out another way to accomplish my goal. Win or lose, PVP is fun for me, even when I die horribly outnumbered, because my attitude is such that "fun" isnt destroyed by losing. For me, the fun comes from playing, from fighting, from winning and losing, from picking myself up again and trying to accomplish my goal some other way. I may not accomplish my goal, but I'll have fun along the way!

I don't know how you define "fun" for you. I suspect, given past conversations, that we have very different definitions. I have a pretty good guess that you don't much like PVP as it is.

I won't mind dying to you and your 5 friends. I will still have fun. For me, that's business as usual in Imperial City. Its water off a duck.

I'm getting the feeling that's not true for you.


So what does that mean for our ongoing conversations?

I truly think you'd have a better time if you accepted PVP as it is, rather than tying your idea of "fun in PVP" to how you wish PVP worked. Most of your complaints I look at and think "I dunno what you want. This is just how PVP works. Accept it and have fun, or don't and continue to be annoyed by PVP working as intended."

So I dunno what you want, even now.

PVP is designed and working as intended to create unfair matchups. Even BGs has lots of times where players can gang up on someone separated from their theorectically equal teams.

You can accept it as I do and have fun.
Or you can not accept it and continue to be annoyed when nothing changes, because PVP is working as intended.

I guess I don't understand the point of the latter. Maybe you can let me know?

I'm perfectly chill. I just think it's incredibly stupid when people zerg down lone individuals or smaller numbers of players - which in my experience is primarily what occurs in Imperial City. I don't understand how you or anyone else can describe that crap as fun and challenging. Where is the fun and challenge in mowing down some poor guy trying to farm stones with a group of players? Sorry. I just don't see it.

Whether it's working as intended or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. It's still stupid regardless. Maybe it was intended to be stupid. But accepting that isn't going to any less dumb to me - and certainly isn't going to make it more fun.

And I wasn't really challenging you to anything. I was just trying to describe a hypothetical in order for you to see it this from the other person's perspective. You are in a PvP guild that aids you in Imperial City. That is likely why you find it fun. If you were the lone guy getting rolled over by zergs and losing all his or her stones over a stupid and unfair death they had no chance to defend themselves against you likely wouldn't find the place so fun. That was my point.

As far as what "I want". Nothing, really. It was you who directed your comment at me after all. I was just pointing out the flaws in comparing the Imperial City to real life Team Sports - because the two of them are nothing alike. No one would go watch a foot ball game where you had 10 players vs 1. Why? Because it would be a very stupid and unfair game. Much like Imperial City is.

Okay, I'm getting the feeling that you didnt read what I said at the very beginning.

I solo in IC.

My guild raids in Cyrodiil. A different zone entirely.

Okay?

I still have fun when I'm the solo player being zerged down because I know that's a part of PVP. Which I deliberately queued up for, knowing what to expect.

The rest is pretty much opinion, so I think I'll let that lie. No point in us getting worked up over opinions that arent right or wrong. Just opinion. You are perfectly free to think ESO's PVP design is stupid, just as I'm free to wonder why you still play something you think is stupid.


But let's circle around to the Sports teams analogy, because I'm afraid I may not have been quite clear.

Sports teams have the numbers they do, and the placement of those numbers according to the rules of the game. Some games make players stay in lanes or regions of the court, others don't. Some games limit how many players pile onto one guy, others have different rules. In all organized sports, how you can and can't play is determined by the rules.

You may not like a certain tactic In a given sport, but if its within the rules, its allowed. You can be of the opinion that a tactic is bad, unfun, not challenging, stupid, whatever you wanna call it, but its the rules that decide whether or not something is playing as intended.


I look at PVP the same way. PVP has rules. Those rules differ from a lot of organized sports, because an AvAvA game is structured a lot closer to a spontanteous game of dodgeball with uneven teams, but it still has rules for what is and isnt acceptable.

And in ESO, PVP rules allow for and indeed create situations where players and groups are going to be outnumbered. That's the sort of game it is. It's how PVP is meant to be played in war zones designed for everyone from solo players to groups of 24.

Unlike a 10 to 1 football game, Cyrodiil and IC are designed for 10 to 1 battles, in addition to a whole lot more. No one says you have to find it fun, but it shouldnt be surprising that many players so find it fun on both the side of the 10 and the side of the 1 (or whatever disparity you want to come up with).


So while the specifics change from sport to sport, what doesn't change is that sports and PVP are both played according to their own rules. You can have your own opinion that behavior that falls within the rules is bad, stupid, and unfun, but that's your opinion. Its within the rules and thus playing as intended. Sports don't typically have the numbers disparity, but PVP does, and it's intended.

That was the point I was driving at.

I find it hard to believe you would have fun dying to 6 other people and losing your stones in some ridiculously unfair and one-sided zerg attack in the corridors of Imperial City. But who knows, maybe you do. I can't speak for you I guess. But me and many others don't.

I already addressed your argument that this is what is "intended". It doesn't matter to me if it was "intended" or not. It's still lame in my opinion and PvP design should work to encourage fairer odds and more interesting combat. It shouldn't pander to the worse elements of PvP like Imperial City does. But I was never claiming it was against the "rules" or wasn't "intended". I was just pointing out how lame it was and how it has no relation what-so-ever to competitive real-life sports.

And my point is that the relation PVP has to the team sports originally brought up was that both are played according to rules. Unlike a football game that's 10 vs 1, when players in PVP fight in battles with big disparity that's created and intended by the rules of PVP.

I expect PVP to work according to its own rules, just like I expect football, basketball, hockey, etc to work according to their own rules.

The opinion of whether or not we like the numbers diaparity allowed in PVP is just that. Opinion.


And yes, I do have fun even when I'm dying to a zerg and losing my Tel Var. I realize that's not true for everyone, but please, do try to believe that I do mean what I say. I dislike debating with people who assume I'm not speaking in good faith.

As I added into my last post - if you actually do enjoy getting slaughtered by zergs in Imperial City while soloing then I'll concede that point to you. I said I would take you at your word, no matter how hard it is for me to actually believe someone could enjoy such a thing. So I'll retract my earlier comment which assumed you would not enjoy fighting against zergs in Imperial City without your guild there to aid you. I hope that is sufficient for you. ^^

To your earlier point: competitive real life sports involve an equal number of teammates facing off against one another to keep things more fair and actually competitive. That way the skill of the individuals involved actually matter - where as if you are grossly outnumbered (as is usually the case in Imperial city) they don't. That's what I was criticizing when it come to the comparison. Whether or not these tactics are within the rules or intended was never part of my argument. So while I understand now the point you were trying to make - it doesn't really factor in to the argument I was making.

SkerKro wrote: »

Never understood why Pve'ers take getting killed by random average Jane and Joe to such a personal level, that they have to use mental illness, health, and comparisons to violent criminals and historical tragedies to find way to find closure and compassion from others.

If you have a better explanation as to why people would enjoy slaughtering other players in some lop-sided boring battle where they have no hopes of defending themselves I'd like to hear it?

Because it's certainly not interesting or fun game play. But for some weird reason - just knowing there is another player behind the screen controlling the pixels they are slaughtering makes it fun for them. I don't see zergs running around on the landscape slaughtering mud crabs for enjoyment (unless their bots that is).

So if you could explain it to me why it's fun for them to slaughter defenseless pixels when a player is controlling it yet not fun when it's an AI controlled pixel I'd be happy to hear it? Otherwise the only explanation I can think of is that they enjoy griefing others. But like I said - if you have an alternative explanation I'll gladly hear it.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Been playing MMOs for 20 years. Been playing this one for almost 5 years.

So what am I waiting for ? Simple enough : I'm waiting for PvP to become fun, with sportsmanship and without trolls.

I suppose I'll wait 20 more years, and I'm being optimistic here.

You must not play any real team sports irl then. Certainly nothing like that occurs there

In real team sports the teams are generally kept even. You don't have 10 vs 1 - because that would make for a pretty stupid game.

Team sports have rules.

So does PVP. PVP in ESO allows and intends to create unbalanced fights. If you don't want that, duel. For those of us who like that, and who accept that this is how PVP is designed and intended, its not a stupid game. It can actually be a fun challenge.

You don't have to like it. You do have to accept that's how PVP works, by design. Working as intended.

I notice that a good many complaints come from people who have problems accepting PVP as it is, rather than PVP as they want it to be.

No one says you have to like PVP as it is. But complaining that PVP wasn't designed to fit your tastes seems kinda silly to me.

Its just a recipe for disappointment.

Oh it's not only stupid when people gang up on others with grotesquely unfair odds - but it is extremely stupid. And there is certainly nothing fun or challenging about it either.

I was pointing out facts, not really complaining. Comparing the stupid crap that goes on in Imperial City to real team sports was just a terrible comparison.

I would also love to see you come fight me and 5 other of my buddies Varanis and see how much of a fun challenge you have trying to 1 vs 6 us? Oh - and lose your stones every time you die while trying to do it (because that's what you are going to do - is die.) I can promise you the last thing you will be having while doing that is fun.

You have a PvP guild and run around with a team helping you. So you are in an entirely different circumstance than a lot of the others being massacred in Imperial City. You need to keep that in mind. Not everyone is so lucky as you.

Chill out. I solo in IC. My guild plays in Cyrodiil. And yeah, I die a lot in Imperial City. I can't get too worked up about it.

We've also moved a little far afield of describing PvPvE in IC and into the realm of opinion, so I'd like to clarify a little.

I'm not trying to tell you that your complaint is a wrong opinion to hold. I'm trying to tell you how PVP is designed and intended.

You can hoId whatever opinion you like. But PVP works the way it does as designed and intended by ZOS, and that's independent of any opinion.

Okay, hope that helped.


Now for my opinion on having fun, since you challenged me to a hypothetical forum duel with you and your 5 friends

I have fun in PVP because I accept PVP for what it is. If I fight you and and your 5 buddies on the way to a boss, I will die. I will rez up, respawn elsewhere, and find something else in Imperial City to do, like fighting a different boss. And I will have fun, because I accept that dying in PVP is normal, okay, and nothing worth being upset over.

I don't expect to win every fight or to never lose progress. I expect to fight outnumbered and to die when I do, to rez up, and either try again or to figure out another way to accomplish my goal. Win or lose, PVP is fun for me, even when I die horribly outnumbered, because my attitude is such that "fun" isnt destroyed by losing. For me, the fun comes from playing, from fighting, from winning and losing, from picking myself up again and trying to accomplish my goal some other way. I may not accomplish my goal, but I'll have fun along the way!

I don't know how you define "fun" for you. I suspect, given past conversations, that we have very different definitions. I have a pretty good guess that you don't much like PVP as it is.

I won't mind dying to you and your 5 friends. I will still have fun. For me, that's business as usual in Imperial City. Its water off a duck.

I'm getting the feeling that's not true for you.


So what does that mean for our ongoing conversations?

I truly think you'd have a better time if you accepted PVP as it is, rather than tying your idea of "fun in PVP" to how you wish PVP worked. Most of your complaints I look at and think "I dunno what you want. This is just how PVP works. Accept it and have fun, or don't and continue to be annoyed by PVP working as intended."

So I dunno what you want, even now.

PVP is designed and working as intended to create unfair matchups. Even BGs has lots of times where players can gang up on someone separated from their theorectically equal teams.

You can accept it as I do and have fun.
Or you can not accept it and continue to be annoyed when nothing changes, because PVP is working as intended.

I guess I don't understand the point of the latter. Maybe you can let me know?

I'm perfectly chill. I just think it's incredibly stupid when people zerg down lone individuals or smaller numbers of players - which in my experience is primarily what occurs in Imperial City. I don't understand how you or anyone else can describe that crap as fun and challenging. Where is the fun and challenge in mowing down some poor guy trying to farm stones with a group of players? Sorry. I just don't see it.

Whether it's working as intended or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. It's still stupid regardless. Maybe it was intended to be stupid. But accepting that isn't going to any less dumb to me - and certainly isn't going to make it more fun.

And I wasn't really challenging you to anything. I was just trying to describe a hypothetical in order for you to see it this from the other person's perspective. You are in a PvP guild that aids you in Imperial City. That is likely why you find it fun. If you were the lone guy getting rolled over by zergs and losing all his or her stones over a stupid and unfair death they had no chance to defend themselves against you likely wouldn't find the place so fun. That was my point.

As far as what "I want". Nothing, really. It was you who directed your comment at me after all. I was just pointing out the flaws in comparing the Imperial City to real life Team Sports - because the two of them are nothing alike. No one would go watch a foot ball game where you had 10 players vs 1. Why? Because it would be a very stupid and unfair game. Much like Imperial City is.

Okay, I'm getting the feeling that you didnt read what I said at the very beginning.

I solo in IC.

My guild raids in Cyrodiil. A different zone entirely.

Okay?

I still have fun when I'm the solo player being zerged down because I know that's a part of PVP. Which I deliberately queued up for, knowing what to expect.

The rest is pretty much opinion, so I think I'll let that lie. No point in us getting worked up over opinions that arent right or wrong. Just opinion. You are perfectly free to think ESO's PVP design is stupid, just as I'm free to wonder why you still play something you think is stupid.


But let's circle around to the Sports teams analogy, because I'm afraid I may not have been quite clear.

Sports teams have the numbers they do, and the placement of those numbers according to the rules of the game. Some games make players stay in lanes or regions of the court, others don't. Some games limit how many players pile onto one guy, others have different rules. In all organized sports, how you can and can't play is determined by the rules.

You may not like a certain tactic In a given sport, but if its within the rules, its allowed. You can be of the opinion that a tactic is bad, unfun, not challenging, stupid, whatever you wanna call it, but its the rules that decide whether or not something is playing as intended.


I look at PVP the same way. PVP has rules. Those rules differ from a lot of organized sports, because an AvAvA game is structured a lot closer to a spontanteous game of dodgeball with uneven teams, but it still has rules for what is and isnt acceptable.

And in ESO, PVP rules allow for and indeed create situations where players and groups are going to be outnumbered. That's the sort of game it is. It's how PVP is meant to be played in war zones designed for everyone from solo players to groups of 24.

Unlike a 10 to 1 football game, Cyrodiil and IC are designed for 10 to 1 battles, in addition to a whole lot more. No one says you have to find it fun, but it shouldnt be surprising that many players so find it fun on both the side of the 10 and the side of the 1 (or whatever disparity you want to come up with).


So while the specifics change from sport to sport, what doesn't change is that sports and PVP are both played according to their own rules. You can have your own opinion that behavior that falls within the rules is bad, stupid, and unfun, but that's your opinion. Its within the rules and thus playing as intended. Sports don't typically have the numbers disparity, but PVP does, and it's intended.

That was the point I was driving at.

I find it hard to believe you would have fun dying to 6 other people and losing your stones in some ridiculously unfair and one-sided zerg attack in the corridors of Imperial City. But who knows, maybe you do. I can't speak for you I guess. But me and many others don't.

I already addressed your argument that this is what is "intended". It doesn't matter to me if it was "intended" or not. It's still lame in my opinion and PvP design should work to encourage fairer odds and more interesting combat. It shouldn't pander to the worse elements of PvP like Imperial City does. But I was never claiming it was against the "rules" or wasn't "intended". I was just pointing out how lame it was and how it has no relation what-so-ever to competitive real-life sports.

And my point is that the relation PVP has to the team sports originally brought up was that both are played according to rules. Unlike a football game that's 10 vs 1, when players in PVP fight in battles with big disparity that's created and intended by the rules of PVP.

I expect PVP to work according to its own rules, just like I expect football, basketball, hockey, etc to work according to their own rules.

The opinion of whether or not we like the numbers diaparity allowed in PVP is just that. Opinion.


And yes, I do have fun even when I'm dying to a zerg and losing my Tel Var. I realize that's not true for everyone, but please, do try to believe that I do mean what I say. I dislike debating with people who assume I'm not speaking in good faith.

As I added into my last post - if you actually do enjoy getting slaughtered by zergs in Imperial City while soloing then I'll concede that point to you. I said I would take you at your word, no matter how hard it is for me to actually believe someone could enjoy such a thing. So I'll retract my earlier comment which assumed you would not enjoy fighting against zergs in Imperial City without your guild there to aid you. I hope that is sufficient for you. ^^

To your earlier point: competitive real life sports involve an equal number of teammates facing off against one another to keep things more fair and actually competitive. That way the skill of the individuals involved actually matter - where as if you are grossly outnumbered (as is usually the case in Imperial city) they don't. That's what I was criticizing when it come to the comparison. Whether or not these tactics are within the rules or intended was never part of my argument. So while I understand now the point you were trying to make - it doesn't really factor in to the argument I was making.

That's all cool, since I'm in the same boat. I understand your point about how you are comparing team sports to PVP, but its doesnt really factor into how I'm comparing team sports to PVP.

If I were to simplify both points, it would be:

You: PVP is not like team sports because team sports have mostly even numbers.

Me: PVP is like team sports because both have exactly the sorts of number disparities allowed by their rules.

Both are correct, as it happens, because they are talking about two slightly different aspects of the same topic: how is PVP like/not like team sports.

So comparisons are valid in your eyes just so long as no rules are broken?

You can nearly compare anything to anything with a standard like that. But I do get the point your making. I don't really agree. But that's fine. We can agree to disagree about it.

SkerKro wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

SkerKro wrote: »

Never understood why Pve'ers take getting killed by random average Jane and Joe to such a personal level, that they have to use mental illness, health, and comparisons to violent criminals and historical tragedies to find way to find closure and compassion from others.

If you have a better explanation as to why people would enjoy slaughtering other players in some lop-sided boring battle where they have no hopes of defending themselves I'd like to hear it?

Because it's certainly not interesting or fun game play. But for some weird reason - just knowing there is another player behind the screen controlling the pixels they are slaughtering makes it fun for them. I don't see zergs running around on the landscape slaughtering mud crabs for enjoyment (unless their bots that is).

So if you could explain it to me why it's fun for them to slaughter defenseless pixels when a player is controlling it yet not fun when it's an AI controlled pixel I'd be happy to hear it? Otherwise the only explanation I can think of is that they enjoy griefing others. But like I said - if you have an alternative explanation I'll gladly hear it.

So in your personal opinion and preferences a simple minor inconvenience, such as a gank is comparable to the Holocaust, school shootings, literal violent sexual assaults and attacks... and I need to find an "alternative" to describe a minor inconvenience?

Nice to know where Pve'ers stand.

I don't think it's comparable to mass murder and sexual assaults. That's of course ridiculous.

But I do believe there is an element of griefing involved - where there is a desire to cause someone else a degree of personal annoyance and that is what makes it fun for them.

Nope, cant backpedal from it now.

Jeremy wrote: »

ike I said; if you have an alternative theory I'll be happy to entertain it.

A minor inconvenience.

I'm not back pedaling.

I am making the argument there is a personal element to it - such as wanting to annoy the other person and that is what makes it fun for them.

If you have an alternative theory as to why they would enjoy that sort of thing - then I'm all ears (or eyes).

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Yesterday around the "event ticket" time, there was a group of reds camping o/s the sewer entrance for blues on XNA, farming folks heading out, so while kudos goes to OP for trying to encourage folk to get out there and PvP, we should also give a special mention to those players who do their best to discourage it.

You know why PvP doesn't get any resources thrown at it? Because in the grand scheme of things, there's SFA PvPers, and getting fewer all the time, and that sort of mind numbing stupidity helps not one iota.

You make a good point. In many cases - it's the PvPers themselves who are their own worse enemies. If they conducted themselves with more distinction instead of resorting to "mind numbing stupidity" as you put it (which is about as good a description for it I could think of) then more people would probably participate in PvP and it might get more resources put into it. These tactics of mercilessly zerging lone adventurers to death for giggles just discourages newer players from wanting anything to do with it.