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The Markarth DLC and Update 28 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! Read the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts/
Hey peeps! Go PvP!
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StormeReigns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Nope, cant backpedal from it now.Never understood why Pve'ers take getting killed by random average Jane and Joe to such a personal level, that they have to use mental illness, health, and comparisons to violent criminals and historical tragedies to find way to find closure and compassion from others.
If you have a better explanation as to why people would enjoy slaughtering other players in some lop-sided boring battle where they have no hopes of defending themselves I'd like to hear it?
Because it's certainly not interesting or fun game play. But for some weird reason - just knowing there is another player behind the screen controlling the pixels they are slaughtering makes it fun for them. I don't see zergs running around on the landscape slaughtering mud crabs for enjoyment (unless their bots that is).
So if you could explain it to me why it's fun for them to slaughter defenseless pixels when a player is controlling it yet not fun when it's an AI controlled pixel I'd be happy to hear it? Otherwise the only explanation I can think of is that they enjoy griefing others. But like I said - if you have an alternative explanation I'll gladly hear it.
So in your personal opinion and preferences a simple minor inconvenience, such as a gank is comparable to the Holocaust, school shootings, literal violent sexual assaults and attacks... and I need to find an "alternative" to describe a minor inconvenience?
Nice to know where Pve'ers stand.
I don't think it's comparable to mass murder and sexual assaults. That's of course ridiculous.
But I do believe there is an element of griefing involved - where there is a desire to cause someone else a degree of personal annoyance and that is what makes it fun for them.
A minor inconvenience.ike I said; if you have an alternative theory I'll be happy to entertain it.
I'm not back pedaling.
I am making the argument there is a personal element to it - such as wanting to annoy the other person and that is what makes it fun for them.
If you have an alternative theory as to why they would enjoy that sort of thing - then I'm all ears (or eyes).
There is no personal element to it. Red = Dead. It is simple. Sure there are jackhats around in all elements of every MMO, it is the nature of the beast, but rarely is personal, but the most common encounter in pvp is done and over with.
Most ganks are done and over with. What is personal about that? Did they actively seek them out just to target them to specifically annoy? did they just need that one kill to move up in rank to get new title?
There are hundreds of reasons to list. Each one is worthless to those who take their virtual death to a personal level, cause they already built up a reason as to why they died and will refuse to let that reason go, cause it would contradict their own emotional state and reaction.
So, when in a PvP (player versus player) zone, there should be not conflict what so ever?Edited by StormeReigns on September 7, 2019 9:05PM -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PVP isn't for everyone. This applies to RL sports and even the workplace as well. It's a minority of people who actually enjoy competition against other people.
It's a mistake for ZOS to push players into this kind of arena through inducements like event tickets. Furthermore, they've watered down PVP for years to make it more accessible which has resulted in the thoroughly unenjoyable tank meta and faction stacks of Cyrodiil.
I wish PVE and PVP ESO were separate games that could be played independently. -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yesterday around the "event ticket" time, there was a group of reds camping o/s the sewer entrance for blues on XNA, farming folks heading out, so while kudos goes to OP for trying to encourage folk to get out there and PvP, we should also give a special mention to those players who do their best to discourage it.
You know why PvP doesn't get any resources thrown at it? Because in the grand scheme of things, there's SFA PvPers, and getting fewer all the time, and that sort of mind numbing stupidity helps not one iota.
You make a good point. In many cases - it's the PvPers themselves who are their own worse enemies. If they conducted themselves with more distinction instead of resorting to "mind numbing stupidity" as you put it (which is about as good a description for it I could think of) then more people would probably participate in PvP and it might get more resources put into it. These tactics of mercilessly zerging lone adventurers to death for giggles just discourages newer players from wanting anything to do with it.
The grossest example of this was the idiots setting up siege engines inside buildings to stop people doing quests in the anniversary event.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Been playing MMOs for 20 years. Been playing this one for almost 5 years.
So what am I waiting for ? Simple enough : I'm waiting for PvP to become fun, with sportsmanship and without trolls.
I suppose I'll wait 20 more years, and I'm being optimistic here.
You must not play any real team sports irl then. Certainly nothing like that occurs there
In real team sports the teams are generally kept even. You don't have 10 vs 1 - because that would make for a pretty stupid game.
Team sports have rules.
So does PVP. PVP in ESO allows and intends to create unbalanced fights. If you don't want that, duel. For those of us who like that, and who accept that this is how PVP is designed and intended, its not a stupid game. It can actually be a fun challenge.
You don't have to like it. You do have to accept that's how PVP works, by design. Working as intended.
I notice that a good many complaints come from people who have problems accepting PVP as it is, rather than PVP as they want it to be.
No one says you have to like PVP as it is. But complaining that PVP wasn't designed to fit your tastes seems kinda silly to me.
Its just a recipe for disappointment.
Oh it's not only stupid when people gang up on others with grotesquely unfair odds - but it is extremely stupid. And there is certainly nothing fun or challenging about it either.
I was pointing out facts, not really complaining. Comparing the stupid crap that goes on in Imperial City to real team sports was just a terrible comparison.
I would also love to see you come fight me and 5 other of my buddies Varanis and see how much of a fun challenge you have trying to 1 vs 6 us? Oh - and lose your stones every time you die while trying to do it (because that's what you are going to do - is die.) I can promise you the last thing you will be having while doing that is fun.
You have a PvP guild and run around with a team helping you. So you are in an entirely different circumstance than a lot of the others being massacred in Imperial City. You need to keep that in mind. Not everyone is so lucky as you.
Chill out. I solo in IC. My guild plays in Cyrodiil. And yeah, I die a lot in Imperial City. I can't get too worked up about it.
We've also moved a little far afield of describing PvPvE in IC and into the realm of opinion, so I'd like to clarify a little.
I'm not trying to tell you that your complaint is a wrong opinion to hold. I'm trying to tell you how PVP is designed and intended.
You can hoId whatever opinion you like. But PVP works the way it does as designed and intended by ZOS, and that's independent of any opinion.
Okay, hope that helped.
Now for my opinion on having fun, since you challenged me to a hypothetical forum duel with you and your 5 friends
I have fun in PVP because I accept PVP for what it is. If I fight you and and your 5 buddies on the way to a boss, I will die. I will rez up, respawn elsewhere, and find something else in Imperial City to do, like fighting a different boss. And I will have fun, because I accept that dying in PVP is normal, okay, and nothing worth being upset over.
I don't expect to win every fight or to never lose progress. I expect to fight outnumbered and to die when I do, to rez up, and either try again or to figure out another way to accomplish my goal. Win or lose, PVP is fun for me, even when I die horribly outnumbered, because my attitude is such that "fun" isnt destroyed by losing. For me, the fun comes from playing, from fighting, from winning and losing, from picking myself up again and trying to accomplish my goal some other way. I may not accomplish my goal, but I'll have fun along the way!
I don't know how you define "fun" for you. I suspect, given past conversations, that we have very different definitions. I have a pretty good guess that you don't much like PVP as it is.
I won't mind dying to you and your 5 friends. I will still have fun. For me, that's business as usual in Imperial City. Its water off a duck.
I'm getting the feeling that's not true for you.
So what does that mean for our ongoing conversations?
I truly think you'd have a better time if you accepted PVP as it is, rather than tying your idea of "fun in PVP" to how you wish PVP worked. Most of your complaints I look at and think "I dunno what you want. This is just how PVP works. Accept it and have fun, or don't and continue to be annoyed by PVP working as intended."
So I dunno what you want, even now.
PVP is designed and working as intended to create unfair matchups. Even BGs has lots of times where players can gang up on someone separated from their theorectically equal teams.
You can accept it as I do and have fun.
Or you can not accept it and continue to be annoyed when nothing changes, because PVP is working as intended.
I guess I don't understand the point of the latter. Maybe you can let me know?
I'm perfectly chill. I just think it's incredibly stupid when people zerg down lone individuals or smaller numbers of players - which in my experience is primarily what occurs in Imperial City. I don't understand how you or anyone else can describe that crap as fun and challenging. Where is the fun and challenge in mowing down some poor guy trying to farm stones with a group of players? Sorry. I just don't see it.
Whether it's working as intended or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. It's still stupid regardless. Maybe it was intended to be stupid. But accepting that isn't going to any less dumb to me - and certainly isn't going to make it more fun.
And I wasn't really challenging you to anything. I was just trying to describe a hypothetical in order for you to see it this from the other person's perspective. You are in a PvP guild that aids you in Imperial City. That is likely why you find it fun. If you were the lone guy getting rolled over by zergs and losing all his or her stones over a stupid and unfair death they had no chance to defend themselves against you likely wouldn't find the place so fun. That was my point.
As far as what "I want". Nothing, really. It was you who directed your comment at me after all. I was just pointing out the flaws in comparing the Imperial City to real life Team Sports - because the two of them are nothing alike. No one would go watch a foot ball game where you had 10 players vs 1. Why? Because it would be a very stupid and unfair game. Much like Imperial City is.
Okay, I'm getting the feeling that you didnt read what I said at the very beginning.
I solo in IC.
My guild raids in Cyrodiil. A different zone entirely.
Okay?
I still have fun when I'm the solo player being zerged down because I know that's a part of PVP. Which I deliberately queued up for, knowing what to expect.
The rest is pretty much opinion, so I think I'll let that lie. No point in us getting worked up over opinions that arent right or wrong. Just opinion. You are perfectly free to think ESO's PVP design is stupid, just as I'm free to wonder why you still play something you think is stupid.
But let's circle around to the Sports teams analogy, because I'm afraid I may not have been quite clear.
Sports teams have the numbers they do, and the placement of those numbers according to the rules of the game. Some games make players stay in lanes or regions of the court, others don't. Some games limit how many players pile onto one guy, others have different rules. In all organized sports, how you can and can't play is determined by the rules.
You may not like a certain tactic In a given sport, but if its within the rules, its allowed. You can be of the opinion that a tactic is bad, unfun, not challenging, stupid, whatever you wanna call it, but its the rules that decide whether or not something is playing as intended.
I look at PVP the same way. PVP has rules. Those rules differ from a lot of organized sports, because an AvAvA game is structured a lot closer to a spontanteous game of dodgeball with uneven teams, but it still has rules for what is and isnt acceptable.
And in ESO, PVP rules allow for and indeed create situations where players and groups are going to be outnumbered. That's the sort of game it is. It's how PVP is meant to be played in war zones designed for everyone from solo players to groups of 24.
Unlike a 10 to 1 football game, Cyrodiil and IC are designed for 10 to 1 battles, in addition to a whole lot more. No one says you have to find it fun, but it shouldnt be surprising that many players so find it fun on both the side of the 10 and the side of the 1 (or whatever disparity you want to come up with).
So while the specifics change from sport to sport, what doesn't change is that sports and PVP are both played according to their own rules. You can have your own opinion that behavior that falls within the rules is bad, stupid, and unfun, but that's your opinion. Its within the rules and thus playing as intended. Sports don't typically have the numbers disparity, but PVP does, and it's intended.
That was the point I was driving at.
I find it hard to believe you would have fun dying to 6 other people and losing your stones in some ridiculously unfair and one-sided zerg attack in the corridors of Imperial City. But who knows, maybe you do. I can't speak for you I guess. But me and many others don't.
I already addressed your argument that this is what is "intended". It doesn't matter to me if it was "intended" or not. It's still lame in my opinion and PvP design should work to encourage fairer odds and more interesting combat. It shouldn't pander to the worse elements of PvP like Imperial City does. But I was never claiming it was against the "rules" or wasn't "intended". I was just pointing out how lame it was and how it has no relation what-so-ever to competitive real-life sports.
And my point is that the relation PVP has to the team sports originally brought up was that both are played according to rules. Unlike a football game that's 10 vs 1, when players in PVP fight in battles with big disparity that's created and intended by the rules of PVP.
I expect PVP to work according to its own rules, just like I expect football, basketball, hockey, etc to work according to their own rules.
The opinion of whether or not we like the numbers diaparity allowed in PVP is just that. Opinion.
And yes, I do have fun even when I'm dying to a zerg and losing my Tel Var. I realize that's not true for everyone, but please, do try to believe that I do mean what I say. I dislike debating with people who assume I'm not speaking in good faith.
As I added into my last post - if you actually do enjoy getting slaughtered by zergs in Imperial City while soloing then I'll concede that point to you. I said I would take you at your word, no matter how hard it is for me to actually believe someone could enjoy such a thing. So I'll retract my earlier comment which assumed you would not enjoy fighting against zergs in Imperial City without your guild there to aid you. I hope that is sufficient for you. ^^
To your earlier point: competitive real life sports involve an equal number of teammates facing off against one another to keep things more fair and actually competitive. That way the skill of the individuals involved actually matter - where as if you are grossly outnumbered (as is usually the case in Imperial city) they don't. That's what I was criticizing when it come to the comparison. Whether or not these tactics are within the rules or intended was never part of my argument. So while I understand now the point you were trying to make - it doesn't really factor in to the argument I was making.
That's all cool, since I'm in the same boat. I understand your point about how you are comparing team sports to PVP, but its doesnt really factor into how I'm comparing team sports to PVP.
If I were to simplify both points, it would be:
You: PVP is not like team sports because team sports have mostly even numbers.
Me: PVP is like team sports because both have exactly the sorts of number disparities allowed by their rules.
Both are correct, as it happens, because they are talking about two slightly different aspects of the same topic: how is PVP like/not like team sports.
So comparisons are valid in your eyes just so long as no rules are broken?
You can literally compare anything to anything with a standard like that.
As I've said in previous comments, I try to accept things for what they are and don't see much point in getting annoyed when things that are working as intended don't work the way I want.
So yes, as long as players aren't breaking the rules of PVP with stuff like Cheat Engine, I enjoy playing PVP as intended, numbers disparity included, including when I'm on the wrong end of those numbers.
I understand that not every player is as inclined to accept these "within the rules, anything goes" style of games, but if its not sonething they enjoy, I kinda wonder why subject themselves to it.
So for me, the 10 to 1 football game example would be more akin to cheating at PVP. It's not enjoyable because its breaking the rules of the game. Football is not designed nor intended for 10 v 1.
Whereas 10 to 1, or more, in PVP is enjoyable because its part of how PVP is played and I knew that when I queued up for a PVP zone.
You don't have to agree, but I hope that makes sense.
But a 10 v 1 football game would suck even if it was within the rules. That's the point of my argument you seem to be missing. It's not the fact it's against the rules that makes it so lame. It's the fact it's so grossly unfair that it would not be a competitive game.
But anyway: I don't subject myself to Imperial City. The only reason I am going into Imperial City currently is to get the tickets - since that can be done without much difficulty since there is a mini boss near the base (though I have seen zergs camping that area and if that becomes common I'll simply do the dungeons instead).
But that doesn't preclude me from having opinions about the place or from criticizing an area I actually paid for. I understand others disagree with me and like it the way it is. And that's fine. But these others are going to have to continue to deal with my criticisms of the area and the tactics used.Edited by Jeremy on September 7, 2019 9:18PM -
lucky_Sage✭✭✭✭✭jainiadral wrote: »Been playing MMOs for 20 years. Been playing this one for almost 5 years.
So what am I waiting for ? Simple enough : I'm waiting for PvP to become fun, with sportsmanship and without trolls.
I suppose I'll wait 20 more years, and I'm being optimistic here.
The Earth will be consumed by a supernova before that happens.
I'm surprised by how crowded the PvE maps are lately even at 3AM PDT-- but I'm not doing the event either, so...yeah
All the PvPers we doing quest to get skill points and farming till next patch because 98% PvPers hate this patchDC PC NA
Magdk - main
Stamcro - alt
AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
magdk
magblade
stamplar
magden
magsorc -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PVP isn't for everyone. This applies to RL sports and even the workplace as well. It's a minority of people who actually enjoy competition against other people.
It's a mistake for ZOS to push players into this kind of arena through inducements like event tickets. Furthermore, they've watered down PVP for years to make it more accessible which has resulted in the thoroughly unenjoyable tank meta and faction stacks of Cyrodiil.
I wish PVE and PVP ESO were separate games that could be played independently.
But there is rarely any real competition in Imperial City. It's mostly just zergs mowing down smaller quantities of players or ganking players when they most vulnerable during PvE encounters. So I would argue If anything makes PvP unenjoyable it's that. Not this "tank meta".
So why do PvPers rarely if ever actually ever criticize the one element of PvP that is most responsible for making it imbalanced and unfair? Instead they complain about players gearing defensively so they cannot die even faster. Hmm... sounds suspicious to me.
In short: If PvPers were truly interested in competitive game play they would be more critical of zerging as a tactic and seek for ways to make the odds more even so competitive game play could actually be realized. But instead - they almost universally defend the practice of massing numbers so your opponents have no real chance to win or fight back. This says to me they really aren't interested in competitive game play at all and by and large, they just want to kill other players because it amuses them.
So I wish we could stop spreading this nonsense that PvPers are interested in skilled and competitive game play. That may be true of some of them. But not the vast bulk - who simply put - just want to kill other players for amusement and are willing to resort to what ever tactics they can to make that happen. And all anyone who doubts this truth has to do is take a stroll into Imperial City to confirm it.Edited by Jeremy on September 7, 2019 9:32PM -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Been playing MMOs for 20 years. Been playing this one for almost 5 years.
So what am I waiting for ? Simple enough : I'm waiting for PvP to become fun, with sportsmanship and without trolls.
I suppose I'll wait 20 more years, and I'm being optimistic here.
You must not play any real team sports irl then. Certainly nothing like that occurs there
In real team sports the teams are generally kept even. You don't have 10 vs 1 - because that would make for a pretty stupid game.
Team sports have rules.
So does PVP. PVP in ESO allows and intends to create unbalanced fights. If you don't want that, duel. For those of us who like that, and who accept that this is how PVP is designed and intended, its not a stupid game. It can actually be a fun challenge.
You don't have to like it. You do have to accept that's how PVP works, by design. Working as intended.
I notice that a good many complaints come from people who have problems accepting PVP as it is, rather than PVP as they want it to be.
No one says you have to like PVP as it is. But complaining that PVP wasn't designed to fit your tastes seems kinda silly to me.
Its just a recipe for disappointment.
Oh it's not only stupid when people gang up on others with grotesquely unfair odds - but it is extremely stupid. And there is certainly nothing fun or challenging about it either.
I was pointing out facts, not really complaining. Comparing the stupid crap that goes on in Imperial City to real team sports was just a terrible comparison.
I would also love to see you come fight me and 5 other of my buddies Varanis and see how much of a fun challenge you have trying to 1 vs 6 us? Oh - and lose your stones every time you die while trying to do it (because that's what you are going to do - is die.) I can promise you the last thing you will be having while doing that is fun.
You have a PvP guild and run around with a team helping you. So you are in an entirely different circumstance than a lot of the others being massacred in Imperial City. You need to keep that in mind. Not everyone is so lucky as you.
Chill out. I solo in IC. My guild plays in Cyrodiil. And yeah, I die a lot in Imperial City. I can't get too worked up about it.
We've also moved a little far afield of describing PvPvE in IC and into the realm of opinion, so I'd like to clarify a little.
I'm not trying to tell you that your complaint is a wrong opinion to hold. I'm trying to tell you how PVP is designed and intended.
You can hoId whatever opinion you like. But PVP works the way it does as designed and intended by ZOS, and that's independent of any opinion.
Okay, hope that helped.
Now for my opinion on having fun, since you challenged me to a hypothetical forum duel with you and your 5 friends
I have fun in PVP because I accept PVP for what it is. If I fight you and and your 5 buddies on the way to a boss, I will die. I will rez up, respawn elsewhere, and find something else in Imperial City to do, like fighting a different boss. And I will have fun, because I accept that dying in PVP is normal, okay, and nothing worth being upset over.
I don't expect to win every fight or to never lose progress. I expect to fight outnumbered and to die when I do, to rez up, and either try again or to figure out another way to accomplish my goal. Win or lose, PVP is fun for me, even when I die horribly outnumbered, because my attitude is such that "fun" isnt destroyed by losing. For me, the fun comes from playing, from fighting, from winning and losing, from picking myself up again and trying to accomplish my goal some other way. I may not accomplish my goal, but I'll have fun along the way!
I don't know how you define "fun" for you. I suspect, given past conversations, that we have very different definitions. I have a pretty good guess that you don't much like PVP as it is.
I won't mind dying to you and your 5 friends. I will still have fun. For me, that's business as usual in Imperial City. Its water off a duck.
I'm getting the feeling that's not true for you.
So what does that mean for our ongoing conversations?
I truly think you'd have a better time if you accepted PVP as it is, rather than tying your idea of "fun in PVP" to how you wish PVP worked. Most of your complaints I look at and think "I dunno what you want. This is just how PVP works. Accept it and have fun, or don't and continue to be annoyed by PVP working as intended."
So I dunno what you want, even now.
PVP is designed and working as intended to create unfair matchups. Even BGs has lots of times where players can gang up on someone separated from their theorectically equal teams.
You can accept it as I do and have fun.
Or you can not accept it and continue to be annoyed when nothing changes, because PVP is working as intended.
I guess I don't understand the point of the latter. Maybe you can let me know?
I'm perfectly chill. I just think it's incredibly stupid when people zerg down lone individuals or smaller numbers of players - which in my experience is primarily what occurs in Imperial City. I don't understand how you or anyone else can describe that crap as fun and challenging. Where is the fun and challenge in mowing down some poor guy trying to farm stones with a group of players? Sorry. I just don't see it.
Whether it's working as intended or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. It's still stupid regardless. Maybe it was intended to be stupid. But accepting that isn't going to any less dumb to me - and certainly isn't going to make it more fun.
And I wasn't really challenging you to anything. I was just trying to describe a hypothetical in order for you to see it this from the other person's perspective. You are in a PvP guild that aids you in Imperial City. That is likely why you find it fun. If you were the lone guy getting rolled over by zergs and losing all his or her stones over a stupid and unfair death they had no chance to defend themselves against you likely wouldn't find the place so fun. That was my point.
As far as what "I want". Nothing, really. It was you who directed your comment at me after all. I was just pointing out the flaws in comparing the Imperial City to real life Team Sports - because the two of them are nothing alike. No one would go watch a foot ball game where you had 10 players vs 1. Why? Because it would be a very stupid and unfair game. Much like Imperial City is.
Okay, I'm getting the feeling that you didnt read what I said at the very beginning.
I solo in IC.
My guild raids in Cyrodiil. A different zone entirely.
Okay?
I still have fun when I'm the solo player being zerged down because I know that's a part of PVP. Which I deliberately queued up for, knowing what to expect.
The rest is pretty much opinion, so I think I'll let that lie. No point in us getting worked up over opinions that arent right or wrong. Just opinion. You are perfectly free to think ESO's PVP design is stupid, just as I'm free to wonder why you still play something you think is stupid.
But let's circle around to the Sports teams analogy, because I'm afraid I may not have been quite clear.
Sports teams have the numbers they do, and the placement of those numbers according to the rules of the game. Some games make players stay in lanes or regions of the court, others don't. Some games limit how many players pile onto one guy, others have different rules. In all organized sports, how you can and can't play is determined by the rules.
You may not like a certain tactic In a given sport, but if its within the rules, its allowed. You can be of the opinion that a tactic is bad, unfun, not challenging, stupid, whatever you wanna call it, but its the rules that decide whether or not something is playing as intended.
I look at PVP the same way. PVP has rules. Those rules differ from a lot of organized sports, because an AvAvA game is structured a lot closer to a spontanteous game of dodgeball with uneven teams, but it still has rules for what is and isnt acceptable.
And in ESO, PVP rules allow for and indeed create situations where players and groups are going to be outnumbered. That's the sort of game it is. It's how PVP is meant to be played in war zones designed for everyone from solo players to groups of 24.
Unlike a 10 to 1 football game, Cyrodiil and IC are designed for 10 to 1 battles, in addition to a whole lot more. No one says you have to find it fun, but it shouldnt be surprising that many players so find it fun on both the side of the 10 and the side of the 1 (or whatever disparity you want to come up with).
So while the specifics change from sport to sport, what doesn't change is that sports and PVP are both played according to their own rules. You can have your own opinion that behavior that falls within the rules is bad, stupid, and unfun, but that's your opinion. Its within the rules and thus playing as intended. Sports don't typically have the numbers disparity, but PVP does, and it's intended.
That was the point I was driving at.
I find it hard to believe you would have fun dying to 6 other people and losing your stones in some ridiculously unfair and one-sided zerg attack in the corridors of Imperial City. But who knows, maybe you do. I can't speak for you I guess. But me and many others don't.
I already addressed your argument that this is what is "intended". It doesn't matter to me if it was "intended" or not. It's still lame in my opinion and PvP design should work to encourage fairer odds and more interesting combat. It shouldn't pander to the worse elements of PvP like Imperial City does. But I was never claiming it was against the "rules" or wasn't "intended". I was just pointing out how lame it was and how it has no relation what-so-ever to competitive real-life sports.
And my point is that the relation PVP has to the team sports originally brought up was that both are played according to rules. Unlike a football game that's 10 vs 1, when players in PVP fight in battles with big disparity that's created and intended by the rules of PVP.
I expect PVP to work according to its own rules, just like I expect football, basketball, hockey, etc to work according to their own rules.
The opinion of whether or not we like the numbers diaparity allowed in PVP is just that. Opinion.
And yes, I do have fun even when I'm dying to a zerg and losing my Tel Var. I realize that's not true for everyone, but please, do try to believe that I do mean what I say. I dislike debating with people who assume I'm not speaking in good faith.
As I added into my last post - if you actually do enjoy getting slaughtered by zergs in Imperial City while soloing then I'll concede that point to you. I said I would take you at your word, no matter how hard it is for me to actually believe someone could enjoy such a thing. So I'll retract my earlier comment which assumed you would not enjoy fighting against zergs in Imperial City without your guild there to aid you. I hope that is sufficient for you. ^^
To your earlier point: competitive real life sports involve an equal number of teammates facing off against one another to keep things more fair and actually competitive. That way the skill of the individuals involved actually matter - where as if you are grossly outnumbered (as is usually the case in Imperial city) they don't. That's what I was criticizing when it come to the comparison. Whether or not these tactics are within the rules or intended was never part of my argument. So while I understand now the point you were trying to make - it doesn't really factor in to the argument I was making.
That's all cool, since I'm in the same boat. I understand your point about how you are comparing team sports to PVP, but its doesnt really factor into how I'm comparing team sports to PVP.
If I were to simplify both points, it would be:
You: PVP is not like team sports because team sports have mostly even numbers.
Me: PVP is like team sports because both have exactly the sorts of number disparities allowed by their rules.
Both are correct, as it happens, because they are talking about two slightly different aspects of the same topic: how is PVP like/not like team sports.
So comparisons are valid in your eyes just so long as no rules are broken?
You can literally compare anything to anything with a standard like that.
As I've said in previous comments, I try to accept things for what they are and don't see much point in getting annoyed when things that are working as intended don't work the way I want.
So yes, as long as players aren't breaking the rules of PVP with stuff like Cheat Engine, I enjoy playing PVP as intended, numbers disparity included, including when I'm on the wrong end of those numbers.
I understand that not every player is as inclined to accept these "within the rules, anything goes" style of games, but if its not sonething they enjoy, I kinda wonder why subject themselves to it.
So for me, the 10 to 1 football game example would be more akin to cheating at PVP. It's not enjoyable because its breaking the rules of the game. Football is not designed nor intended for 10 v 1.
Whereas 10 to 1, or more, in PVP is enjoyable because its part of how PVP is played and I knew that when I queued up for a PVP zone.
You don't have to agree, but I hope that makes sense.
But a 10 v 1 football game would suck even if it was within the rules. That's the point of my argument you seem to be missing. It's not the fact it's against the rules that makes it so lame. It's the fact it's so grossly unfair that it would not be a competitive game.
But anyway: I don't subject myself to Imperial City. The only reason I am going into Imperial City currently is to get the tickets - since that can be done without much difficulty since there is a mini boss near the base (though I have seen zergs camping that area and if that becomes common I'll simply do the dungeons instead).
But that doesn't preclude me from having opinions about the place or from criticizing an area I actually paid for. I understand others disagree with me and like it the way it is. And that's fine. But these others are going to have to continue to deal with my criticisms of the area and the tactics used.
I understand your opinion about 10 v 1, and I think I've explained my opinion enough that I'd he repeating myself. We're using different criteria to reach those opinions, and so while we seem to understand each other, we arent going to agree.
That's okay.
In any case, it sounds like IC is just a matter of speed and convenience In ticket gathering for you in this event as opposed to running the dungeons, so I hope you have fun! -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Been playing MMOs for 20 years. Been playing this one for almost 5 years.
So what am I waiting for ? Simple enough : I'm waiting for PvP to become fun, with sportsmanship and without trolls.
I suppose I'll wait 20 more years, and I'm being optimistic here.
You must not play any real team sports irl then. Certainly nothing like that occurs there
In real team sports the teams are generally kept even. You don't have 10 vs 1 - because that would make for a pretty stupid game.
Team sports have rules.
So does PVP. PVP in ESO allows and intends to create unbalanced fights. If you don't want that, duel. For those of us who like that, and who accept that this is how PVP is designed and intended, its not a stupid game. It can actually be a fun challenge.
You don't have to like it. You do have to accept that's how PVP works, by design. Working as intended.
I notice that a good many complaints come from people who have problems accepting PVP as it is, rather than PVP as they want it to be.
No one says you have to like PVP as it is. But complaining that PVP wasn't designed to fit your tastes seems kinda silly to me.
Its just a recipe for disappointment.
Oh it's not only stupid when people gang up on others with grotesquely unfair odds - but it is extremely stupid. And there is certainly nothing fun or challenging about it either.
I was pointing out facts, not really complaining. Comparing the stupid crap that goes on in Imperial City to real team sports was just a terrible comparison.
I would also love to see you come fight me and 5 other of my buddies Varanis and see how much of a fun challenge you have trying to 1 vs 6 us? Oh - and lose your stones every time you die while trying to do it (because that's what you are going to do - is die.) I can promise you the last thing you will be having while doing that is fun.
You have a PvP guild and run around with a team helping you. So you are in an entirely different circumstance than a lot of the others being massacred in Imperial City. You need to keep that in mind. Not everyone is so lucky as you.
Chill out. I solo in IC. My guild plays in Cyrodiil. And yeah, I die a lot in Imperial City. I can't get too worked up about it.
We've also moved a little far afield of describing PvPvE in IC and into the realm of opinion, so I'd like to clarify a little.
I'm not trying to tell you that your complaint is a wrong opinion to hold. I'm trying to tell you how PVP is designed and intended.
You can hoId whatever opinion you like. But PVP works the way it does as designed and intended by ZOS, and that's independent of any opinion.
Okay, hope that helped.
Now for my opinion on having fun, since you challenged me to a hypothetical forum duel with you and your 5 friends
I have fun in PVP because I accept PVP for what it is. If I fight you and and your 5 buddies on the way to a boss, I will die. I will rez up, respawn elsewhere, and find something else in Imperial City to do, like fighting a different boss. And I will have fun, because I accept that dying in PVP is normal, okay, and nothing worth being upset over.
I don't expect to win every fight or to never lose progress. I expect to fight outnumbered and to die when I do, to rez up, and either try again or to figure out another way to accomplish my goal. Win or lose, PVP is fun for me, even when I die horribly outnumbered, because my attitude is such that "fun" isnt destroyed by losing. For me, the fun comes from playing, from fighting, from winning and losing, from picking myself up again and trying to accomplish my goal some other way. I may not accomplish my goal, but I'll have fun along the way!
I don't know how you define "fun" for you. I suspect, given past conversations, that we have very different definitions. I have a pretty good guess that you don't much like PVP as it is.
I won't mind dying to you and your 5 friends. I will still have fun. For me, that's business as usual in Imperial City. Its water off a duck.
I'm getting the feeling that's not true for you.
So what does that mean for our ongoing conversations?
I truly think you'd have a better time if you accepted PVP as it is, rather than tying your idea of "fun in PVP" to how you wish PVP worked. Most of your complaints I look at and think "I dunno what you want. This is just how PVP works. Accept it and have fun, or don't and continue to be annoyed by PVP working as intended."
So I dunno what you want, even now.
PVP is designed and working as intended to create unfair matchups. Even BGs has lots of times where players can gang up on someone separated from their theorectically equal teams.
You can accept it as I do and have fun.
Or you can not accept it and continue to be annoyed when nothing changes, because PVP is working as intended.
I guess I don't understand the point of the latter. Maybe you can let me know?
I'm perfectly chill. I just think it's incredibly stupid when people zerg down lone individuals or smaller numbers of players - which in my experience is primarily what occurs in Imperial City. I don't understand how you or anyone else can describe that crap as fun and challenging. Where is the fun and challenge in mowing down some poor guy trying to farm stones with a group of players? Sorry. I just don't see it.
Whether it's working as intended or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. It's still stupid regardless. Maybe it was intended to be stupid. But accepting that isn't going to any less dumb to me - and certainly isn't going to make it more fun.
And I wasn't really challenging you to anything. I was just trying to describe a hypothetical in order for you to see it this from the other person's perspective. You are in a PvP guild that aids you in Imperial City. That is likely why you find it fun. If you were the lone guy getting rolled over by zergs and losing all his or her stones over a stupid and unfair death they had no chance to defend themselves against you likely wouldn't find the place so fun. That was my point.
As far as what "I want". Nothing, really. It was you who directed your comment at me after all. I was just pointing out the flaws in comparing the Imperial City to real life Team Sports - because the two of them are nothing alike. No one would go watch a foot ball game where you had 10 players vs 1. Why? Because it would be a very stupid and unfair game. Much like Imperial City is.
Okay, I'm getting the feeling that you didnt read what I said at the very beginning.
I solo in IC.
My guild raids in Cyrodiil. A different zone entirely.
Okay?
I still have fun when I'm the solo player being zerged down because I know that's a part of PVP. Which I deliberately queued up for, knowing what to expect.
The rest is pretty much opinion, so I think I'll let that lie. No point in us getting worked up over opinions that arent right or wrong. Just opinion. You are perfectly free to think ESO's PVP design is stupid, just as I'm free to wonder why you still play something you think is stupid.
But let's circle around to the Sports teams analogy, because I'm afraid I may not have been quite clear.
Sports teams have the numbers they do, and the placement of those numbers according to the rules of the game. Some games make players stay in lanes or regions of the court, others don't. Some games limit how many players pile onto one guy, others have different rules. In all organized sports, how you can and can't play is determined by the rules.
You may not like a certain tactic In a given sport, but if its within the rules, its allowed. You can be of the opinion that a tactic is bad, unfun, not challenging, stupid, whatever you wanna call it, but its the rules that decide whether or not something is playing as intended.
I look at PVP the same way. PVP has rules. Those rules differ from a lot of organized sports, because an AvAvA game is structured a lot closer to a spontanteous game of dodgeball with uneven teams, but it still has rules for what is and isnt acceptable.
And in ESO, PVP rules allow for and indeed create situations where players and groups are going to be outnumbered. That's the sort of game it is. It's how PVP is meant to be played in war zones designed for everyone from solo players to groups of 24.
Unlike a 10 to 1 football game, Cyrodiil and IC are designed for 10 to 1 battles, in addition to a whole lot more. No one says you have to find it fun, but it shouldnt be surprising that many players so find it fun on both the side of the 10 and the side of the 1 (or whatever disparity you want to come up with).
So while the specifics change from sport to sport, what doesn't change is that sports and PVP are both played according to their own rules. You can have your own opinion that behavior that falls within the rules is bad, stupid, and unfun, but that's your opinion. Its within the rules and thus playing as intended. Sports don't typically have the numbers disparity, but PVP does, and it's intended.
That was the point I was driving at.
I find it hard to believe you would have fun dying to 6 other people and losing your stones in some ridiculously unfair and one-sided zerg attack in the corridors of Imperial City. But who knows, maybe you do. I can't speak for you I guess. But me and many others don't.
I already addressed your argument that this is what is "intended". It doesn't matter to me if it was "intended" or not. It's still lame in my opinion and PvP design should work to encourage fairer odds and more interesting combat. It shouldn't pander to the worse elements of PvP like Imperial City does. But I was never claiming it was against the "rules" or wasn't "intended". I was just pointing out how lame it was and how it has no relation what-so-ever to competitive real-life sports.
And my point is that the relation PVP has to the team sports originally brought up was that both are played according to rules. Unlike a football game that's 10 vs 1, when players in PVP fight in battles with big disparity that's created and intended by the rules of PVP.
I expect PVP to work according to its own rules, just like I expect football, basketball, hockey, etc to work according to their own rules.
The opinion of whether or not we like the numbers diaparity allowed in PVP is just that. Opinion.
And yes, I do have fun even when I'm dying to a zerg and losing my Tel Var. I realize that's not true for everyone, but please, do try to believe that I do mean what I say. I dislike debating with people who assume I'm not speaking in good faith.
As I added into my last post - if you actually do enjoy getting slaughtered by zergs in Imperial City while soloing then I'll concede that point to you. I said I would take you at your word, no matter how hard it is for me to actually believe someone could enjoy such a thing. So I'll retract my earlier comment which assumed you would not enjoy fighting against zergs in Imperial City without your guild there to aid you. I hope that is sufficient for you. ^^
To your earlier point: competitive real life sports involve an equal number of teammates facing off against one another to keep things more fair and actually competitive. That way the skill of the individuals involved actually matter - where as if you are grossly outnumbered (as is usually the case in Imperial city) they don't. That's what I was criticizing when it come to the comparison. Whether or not these tactics are within the rules or intended was never part of my argument. So while I understand now the point you were trying to make - it doesn't really factor in to the argument I was making.
That's all cool, since I'm in the same boat. I understand your point about how you are comparing team sports to PVP, but its doesnt really factor into how I'm comparing team sports to PVP.
If I were to simplify both points, it would be:
You: PVP is not like team sports because team sports have mostly even numbers.
Me: PVP is like team sports because both have exactly the sorts of number disparities allowed by their rules.
Both are correct, as it happens, because they are talking about two slightly different aspects of the same topic: how is PVP like/not like team sports.
So comparisons are valid in your eyes just so long as no rules are broken?
You can literally compare anything to anything with a standard like that.
As I've said in previous comments, I try to accept things for what they are and don't see much point in getting annoyed when things that are working as intended don't work the way I want.
So yes, as long as players aren't breaking the rules of PVP with stuff like Cheat Engine, I enjoy playing PVP as intended, numbers disparity included, including when I'm on the wrong end of those numbers.
I understand that not every player is as inclined to accept these "within the rules, anything goes" style of games, but if its not sonething they enjoy, I kinda wonder why subject themselves to it.
So for me, the 10 to 1 football game example would be more akin to cheating at PVP. It's not enjoyable because its breaking the rules of the game. Football is not designed nor intended for 10 v 1.
Whereas 10 to 1, or more, in PVP is enjoyable because its part of how PVP is played and I knew that when I queued up for a PVP zone.
You don't have to agree, but I hope that makes sense.
But a 10 v 1 football game would suck even if it was within the rules. That's the point of my argument you seem to be missing. It's not the fact it's against the rules that makes it so lame. It's the fact it's so grossly unfair that it would not be a competitive game.
But anyway: I don't subject myself to Imperial City. The only reason I am going into Imperial City currently is to get the tickets - since that can be done without much difficulty since there is a mini boss near the base (though I have seen zergs camping that area and if that becomes common I'll simply do the dungeons instead).
But that doesn't preclude me from having opinions about the place or from criticizing an area I actually paid for. I understand others disagree with me and like it the way it is. And that's fine. But these others are going to have to continue to deal with my criticisms of the area and the tactics used.
I understand your opinion about 10 v 1, and I think I've explained my opinion enough that I'd he repeating myself. We're using different criteria to reach those opinions, and so while we seem to understand each other, we arent going to agree.
That's okay.
In any case, it sounds like IC is just a matter of speed and convenience In ticket gathering for you in this event as opposed to running the dungeons, so I hope you have fun!
Aye. That is exactly what it is. Though currently there is a bug happening or something keeping me from getting my tickets. Edited by Jeremy on September 7, 2019 9:35PM -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭But there is rarely any real competition in Imperial City. It's mostly just zergs mowing down smaller quantities of players or ganking players when they most vulnerable during PvE encounters. So I would argue If anything makes PvP unenjoyable it's that. Not this "tank meta".
AvA does not provide structured gameplay. It will never be 'fair'. Dealing with mismatches is part of the gameplay. In particular, being aware of gankers and groups stronger than your own (for any reason; numbers, skill, whatever) while completing the PVE content is part of how IC is designed.
IMO, it's just not your cup of tea. You seem to understand this and are there for reasons other than gameplay. I think you should own your decision to do something you obviously do not enjoy for a reward you prefer.Edited by zyk on September 7, 2019 9:40PM -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Been playing MMOs for 20 years. Been playing this one for almost 5 years.
So what am I waiting for ? Simple enough : I'm waiting for PvP to become fun, with sportsmanship and without trolls.
I suppose I'll wait 20 more years, and I'm being optimistic here.
You must not play any real team sports irl then. Certainly nothing like that occurs there
In real team sports the teams are generally kept even. You don't have 10 vs 1 - because that would make for a pretty stupid game.
Team sports have rules.
So does PVP. PVP in ESO allows and intends to create unbalanced fights. If you don't want that, duel. For those of us who like that, and who accept that this is how PVP is designed and intended, its not a stupid game. It can actually be a fun challenge.
You don't have to like it. You do have to accept that's how PVP works, by design. Working as intended.
I notice that a good many complaints come from people who have problems accepting PVP as it is, rather than PVP as they want it to be.
No one says you have to like PVP as it is. But complaining that PVP wasn't designed to fit your tastes seems kinda silly to me.
Its just a recipe for disappointment.
Oh it's not only stupiEbon'speople gang up on others with grotesquely unfair odds - but it is extremely stupid. And there is certainly nothing fun or challenging about it either.
I was pointing out facts, not really complaining. Comparing the stupid crap that goes on in Imperial City to real team sports was just a terrible comparison.
I would also love to see you come fight me and 5 other of my buddies Varanis and see how much of a fun challenge you have trying to 1 vs 6 us? Oh - and lose your stones every time you die while trying to do it (because that's what you are going to do - is die.) I can promise you the last thing you will be having while doing that is fun.
You have a PvP guild and run around with a team helping you. So you are in an entirely different circumstance than a lot of the others being massacred in Imperial City. You need to keep that in mind. Not everyone is so lucky as you.
Chill out. I solo in IC. My guild plays in Cyrodiil. And yeah, I die a lot in Imperial City. I can't get too worked up about it.
We've also moved a little far afield of describing PvPvE in IC and into the realm of opinion, so I'd like to clarify a little.
I'm not trying to tell you that your complaint is a wrong opinion to hold. I'm trying to tell you how PVP is designed and intended.
You can hoId whatever opinion you like. But PVP works the way it does as designed and intended by ZOS, and that's independent of any opinion.
Okay, hope that helped.
Now for my opinion on having fun, since you challenged me to a hypothetical forum duel with you and your 5 friends
I have fun in PVP because I accept PVP for what it is. If I fight you and and your 5 buddies on the way to a boss, I will die. I will rez up, respawn elsewhere, and find something else in Imperial City to do, like fighting a different boss. And I will have fun, because I accept that dying in PVP is normal, okay, and nothing worth being upset over.
I don't expect to win every fight or to never lose progress. I expect to fight outnumbered and to die when I do, to rez up, and either try again or to figure out another way to accomplish my goal. Win or lose, PVP is fun for me, even when I die horribly outnumbered, because my attitude is such that "fun" isnt destroyed by losing. For me, the fun comes from playing, from fighting, from winning and losing, from picking myself up again and trying to accomplish my goal some other way. I may not accomplish my goal, but I'll have fun along the way!
I don't know how you define "fun" for you. I suspect, given past conversations, that we have very different definitions. I have a pretty good guess that you don't much like PVP as it is.
I won't mind dying to you and your 5 friends. I will still have fun. For me, that's business as usual in Imperial City. Its water off a duck.
I'm getting the feeling that's not true for you.
So what does that mean for our ongoing conversations?
I truly think you'd have a better time if you accepted PVP as it is, rather than tying your idea of "fun in PVP" to how you wish PVP worked. Most of your complaints I look at and think "I dunno what you want. This is just how PVP works. Accept it and have fun, or don't and continue to be annoyed by PVP working as intended."
So I dunno what you want, even now.
PVP is designed and working as intended to create unfair matchups. Even BGs has lots of times where players can gang up on someone separated from their theorectically equal teams.
You can accept it as I do and have fun.
Or you can not accept it and continue to be annoyed when nothing changes, because PVP is working as intended.
I guess I don't understand the point of the latter. Maybe you can let me know?
I'm perfectly chill. I just think it's incredibly stupid when people zerg down lone individuals or smaller numbers of players - which in my experience is primarily what occurs in Imperial City. I don't understand how you or anyone else can describe that crap as fun and challenging. Where is the fun and challenge in mowing down some poor guy trying to farm stones with a group of players? Sorry. I just don't see it.
Whether it's working as intended or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. It's still stupid regardless. Maybe it was intended to be stupid. But accepting that isn't going to any less dumb to me - and certainly isn't going to make it more fun.
And I wasn't really challenging you to anything. I was just trying to describe a hypothetical in order for you to see it this from the other person's perspective. You are in a PvP guild that aids you in Imperial City. That is likely why you find it fun. If you were the lone guy getting rolled over by zergs and losing all his or her stones over a stupid and unfair death they had no chance to defend themselves against you likely wouldn't find the place so fun. That was my point.
As far as what "I want". Nothing, really. It was you who directed your comment at me after all. I was just pointing out the flaws in comparing the Imperial City to real life Team Sports - because the two of them are nothing alike. No one would go watch a foot ball game where you had 10 players vs 1. Why? Because it would be a very stupid and unfair game. Much like Imperial City is.
Okay, I'm getting the feeling that you didnt read what I said at the very beginning.
I solo in IC.
My guild raids in Cyrodiil. A different zone entirely.
Okay?
I still have fun when I'm the solo player being zerged down because I know that's a part of PVP. Which I deliberately queued up for, knowing what to expect.
The rest is pretty much opinion, so I think I'll let that lie. No point in us getting worked up over opinions that arent right or wrong. Just opinion. You are perfectly free to think ESO's PVP design is stupid, just as I'm free to wonder why you still play something you think is stupid.
But let's circle around to the Sports teams analogy, because I'm afraid I may not have been quite clear.
Sports teams have the numbers they do, and the placement of those numbers according to the rules of the game. Some games make players stay in lanes or regions of the court, others don't. Some games limit how many players pile onto one guy, others have different rules. In all organized sports, how you can and can't play is determined by the rules.
You may not like a certain tactic In a given sport, but if its within the rules, its allowed. You can be of the opinion that a tactic is bad, unfun, not challenging, stupid, whatever you wanna call it, but its the rules that decide whether or not something is playing as intended.
I look at PVP the same way. PVP has rules. Those rules differ from a lot of organized sports, because an AvAvA game is structured a lot closer to a spontanteous game of dodgeball with uneven teams, but it still has rules for what is and isnt acceptable.
And in ESO, PVP rules allow for and indeed create situations where players and groups are going to be outnumbered. That's the sort of game it is. It's how PVP is meant to be played in war zones designed for everyone from solo players to groups of 24.
Unlike a 10 to 1 football game, Cyrodiil and IC are designed for 10 to 1 battles, in addition to a whole lot more. No one says you have to find it fun, but it shouldnt be surprising that many players so find it fun on both the side of the 10 and the side of the 1 (or whatever disparity you want to come up with).
So while the specifics change from sport to sport, what doesn't change is that sports and PVP are both played according to their own rules. You can have your own opinion that behavior that falls within the rules is bad, stupid, and unfun, but that's your opinion. Its within the rules and thus playing as intended. Sports don't typically have the numbers disparity, but PVP does, and it's intended.
That was the point I was driving at.
I find it hard to believe you would have fun dying to 6 other people and losing your stones in some ridiculously unfair and one-sided zerg attack in the corridors of Imperial City. But who knows, maybe you do. I can't speak for you I guess. But me and many others don't.
I already addressed your argument that this is what is "intended". It doesn't matter to me if it was "intended" or not. It's still lame in my opinion and PvP design should work to encourage fairer odds and more interesting combat. It shouldn't pander to the worse elements of PvP like Imperial City does. But I was never claiming it was against the "rules" or wasn't "intended". I was just pointing out how lame it was and how it has no relation what-so-ever to competitive real-life sports.
And my point is that the relation PVP has to the team sports originally brought up was that both are played according to rules. Unlike a football game that's 10 vs 1, when players in PVP fight in battles with big disparity that's created and intended by the rules of PVP.
I expect PVP to work according to its own rules, just like I expect football, basketball, hockey, etc to work according to their own rules.
The opinion of whether or not we like the numbers diaparity allowed in PVP is just that. Opinion.
And yes, I do have fun even when I'm dying to a zerg and losing my Tel Var. I realize that's not true for everyone, but please, do try to believe that I do mean what I say. I dislike debating with people who assume I'm not speaking in good faith.
As I added into my last post - if you actually do enjoy getting slaughtered by zergs in Imperial City while soloing then I'll concede that point to you. I said I would take you at your word, no matter how hard it is for me to actually believe someone could enjoy such a thing. So I'll retract my earlier comment which assumed you would not enjoy fighting against zergs in Imperial City without your guild there to aid you. I hope that is sufficient for you. ^^
To your earlier point: competitive real life sports involve an equal number of teammates facing off against one another to keep things more fair and actually competitive. That way the skill of the individuals involved actually matter - where as if you are grossly outnumbered (as is usually the case in Imperial city) they don't. That's what I was criticizing when it come to the comparison. Whether or not these tactics are within the rules or intended was never part of my argument. So while I understand now the point you were trying to make - it doesn't really factor in to the argument I was making.
That's all cool, since I'm in the same boat. I understand your point about how you are comparing team sports to PVP, but its doesnt really factor into how I'm comparing team sports to PVP.
If I were to simplify both points, it would be:
You: PVP is not like team sports because team sports have mostly even numbers.
Me: PVP is like team sports because both have exactly the sorts of number disparities allowed by their rules.
Both are correct, as it happens, because they are talking about two slightly different aspects of the same topic: how is PVP like/not like team sports.
So comparisons are valid in your eyes just so long as no rules are broken?
You can literally compare anything to anything with a standard like that.
As I've said in previous comments, I try to accept things for what they are and don't see much point in getting annoyed when things that are working as intended don't work the way I want.
So yes, as long as players aren't breaking the rules of PVP with stuff like Cheat Engine, I enjoy playing PVP as intended, numbers disparity included, including when I'm on the wrong end of those numbers.
I understand that not every player is as inclined to accept these "within the rules, anything goes" style of games, but if its not sonething they enjoy, I kinda wonder why subject themselves to it.
So for me, the 10 to 1 football game example would be more akin to cheating at PVP. It's not enjoyable because its breaking the rules of the game. Football is not designed nor intended for 10 v 1.
Whereas 10 to 1, or more, in PVP is enjoyable because its part of how PVP is played and I knew that when I queued up for a PVP zone.
You don't have to agree, but I hope that makes sense.
But a 10 v 1 football game would suck even if it was within the rules. That's the point of my argument you seem to be missing. It's not the fact it's against the rules that makes it so lame. It's the fact it's so grossly unfair that it would not be a competitive game.
But anyway: I don't subject myself to Imperial City. The only reason I am going into Imperial City currently is to get the tickets - since that can be done without much difficulty since there is a mini boss near the base (though I have seen zergs camping that area and if that becomes common I'll simply do the dungeons instead).
But that doesn't preclude me from having opinions about the place or from criticizing an area I actually paid for. I understand others disagree with me and like it the way it is. And that's fine. But these others are going to have to continue to deal with my criticisms of the area and the tactics used.
I understand your opinion about 10 v 1, and I think I've explained my opinion enough that I'd he repeating myself. We're using different criteria to reach those opinions, and so while we seem to understand each other, we arent going to agree.
That's okay.
In any case, it sounds like IC is just a matter of speed and convenience In ticket gathering for you in this event as opposed to running the dungeons, so I hope you have fun!
Aye. That is exactly what it is. Though currently there is a bug happening or something keeping me from getting my tickets.
I think I saw that in the other thread. I hope that gets fixed for you all soon! -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭But there is rarely any real competition in Imperial City. It's mostly just zergs mowing down smaller quantities of players or ganking players when they most vulnerable during PvE encounters. So I would argue If anything makes PvP unenjoyable it's that. Not this "tank meta".
AvA does not provide structured gameplay. It will never be 'fair'. Dealing with mismatches is part of the gameplay. In particular, being aware of gankers and groups stronger than your own (for any reason; numbers, skill, whatever) is part of how IC is designed.
IMO, it's just not your cup of tea. You seem to understand this and are there for reasons other than gameplay. I think you should own your decision to do something you obviously do not enjoy for a reward you prefer.
My post wasn't about me or what I preferred though.
I was challenging the assertion that PvP on this game is for people who enjoy competitive game play against other people. I'm not sure how that can be said - especially considering even you admit there is nothing fair about it. This is especially the case in the context of Imperial City.
There is a reason my favorite PvP activity is battlegrounds. Because that's the one PvP activity on this game where your opponent just can't mass a huge zerg to win (which is basically what happens in Imperial City and Cyrodil). It ends up being just a numbers game which - let's be honest - has absolutely nothing to do with actual competitive game play. In fact: it's the very opposite of that - and revolves around outnumbering your opponents to the point you can purposely avoid competitive game play.
It would be more accurate to say PvP - especially in the Imperial City - is for people who enjoy outnumbering their opponents to slaughter them or ganking them while they are vulnerable during PvE encounters. Competitive game play has almost nothing to do with Imperial City. And anyone who goes to Imperial City looking for some competitive game play is likely going to be sorely disappointed.Edited by Jeremy on September 7, 2019 10:02PM -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I didn't say competitive play. I said competition. It's not an esport, but you're still competing against other players which most people, in my experience, just don't enjoy.
And it's not just a numbers game. That's a cop out. Numbers are only one factor. Organization, skill and preparation are all more important factors. Eventually numbers may become overwhelming, but that's true in every game. Good luck in Counterstrike when you're 5v1 against equal players when the rest of your team potatoed to their deaths. Every day in Cyrodiil skilled groups of all sizes routinely defeat groups that outnumber them by a factor of 5 or more.
The true root of all this salt are event tickets and whatever other event rewards might exist. It's the same thing every AvA event.Edited by zyk on September 7, 2019 10:07PM -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I didn't say competitive play. I said competition. It's not an esport, but you're still competing against other players which most people, in my experience, just don't enjoy.
Ok that's fair enough.
So long as we can agree that it's not competitive game play I think we can end on agreement then. I can't dispute the fact PvP on this game does involve players competing against one another - even if that competition is usually not even remotely fair.Edited by Jeremy on September 7, 2019 10:11PM -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
And it's not just a numbers game. That's a cop out. Numbers are only one factor. Organization, skill and preparation are all more important factors. Eventually numbers may become overwhelming, but that's true in every game. Good luck in Counterstrike when you're 5v1 against equal players when the rest of your team potatoed to their deaths. Every day in Cyrodiil skilled groups of all sizes routinely defeat groups that outnumber them by a factor of 5 or more.
The true root of all this salt are event tickets and whatever other event rewards might exist. It's the same thing every AvA event.
Well you had me up until you added this.
Because nah - it's a numbers game. That's not a "cop out". That's the reality. When a zerg of players dominates one or a few players that's what it is - a numbers game. Skill has has nothing to do with it. I suppose you could make the argument organization plays a role so far as accumulating the numbers, though.
This isn't counter strike. And while I can't speak to CP PvP - in none CP PvP on this game any team of 5 who let's a single player defeat them are either AFK, severely handicapped, or simply suck atrociously at this game. So that would be an exception to the rule.Edited by Jeremy on September 7, 2019 10:19PM -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I used counterstrike as an example of a highly structured, undeniably competitive game in which situational mismatches still occur and usually results in a victory for those with greater numbers.
The same goes for rl sports. In hockey, an odd man rush or power player are considered to be huge advantages. Creating those mismatches is a key tactic. In basketball, the best players have to deal with 'double teams' every possession. No one gives Lebron James free baskets by defending him 1v1 out of principle.
In AvA, sizing up your opponents and knowing when to push and when to withdraw are critical components to success. Outnumbering opponents is a valid tactic, but it may create a mismatch for your faction elsewhere.
This is all par for the course in AvA. It's contentious right now because some players want to grind rewards. -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I used counterstrike as an example of a highly structured, undeniably competitive game in which situational mismatches still occur and usually results in a victory for those with greater numbers.
The same goes for rl sports. In hockey, an odd man rush or power player are considered to be huge advantages. Creating those mismatches is a key tactic. In basketball, the best players have to deal with 'double teams' every possession. No one gives Lebron James free baskets by defending him 1v1 out of principle.
In AvA, sizing up your opponents and knowing when to push and when to withdraw are critical components to success. Outnumbering opponents is a valid tactic, but it may create a mismatch for your faction elsewhere.
This is all par for the course in AvA. It's contentious right now because some players want to grind rewards.
I'm not talking about situational mismatches. I am talking about overwhelming your opponent with superior numbers to win. In hockey - you have two teams of equal number being pitted against each other. That's nothing like zerging someone to death in Imperial City. If you had one side of the hokey rink with 20 people and the other side had 2 - guess which side would win? There is no amount of strategy or situational mismatches that is going to change that.
What you are describing is more akin to Battlegrounds and coordinating an attack on someone in that context - which I don't have a problem with.
Edited by Jeremy on September 7, 2019 11:04PM -
drkfrontiers✭✭✭✭✭
✭PvP is not my thing in ESO. Pretty toxic community in there.
Been gaming for close on 25+ years and its little surprise that pvpers end up ruining their own playground 99% of the time.
"One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star."
~ Friedrich Nietzsche -
MehrunesFlagon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Never understood why Pve'ers take getting killed by random average Jane and Joe to such a personal level, that they have to use mental illness, health, and comparisons to violent criminals and historical tragedies to find way to find closure and compassion from others.
If you have a better explanation as to why people would enjoy slaughtering other players in some lop-sided boring battle where they have no hopes of defending themselves I'd like to hear it?
Because it's certainly not interesting or fun game play. But for some weird reason - just knowing there is another player behind the screen controlling the pixels they are slaughtering makes it fun for them. I don't see zergs running around on the landscape slaughtering mud crabs for enjoyment (unless their bots that is).
So if you could explain it to me why it's fun for them to slaughter defenseless pixels when a player is controlling it yet not fun when it's an AI controlled pixel I'd be happy to hear it? Otherwise the only explanation I can think of is that they enjoy griefing others. But like I said - if you have an alternative explanation I'll gladly hear it.
So in your personal opinion and preferences a simple minor inconvenience, such as a gank is comparable to the Holocaust, school shootings, literal violent sexual assaults and attacks... and I need to find an "alternative" to describe a minor inconvenience?
Nice to know where Pve'ers stand.
A minor inconvenience would be like the rich paying taxes. -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Been playing MMOs for 20 years. Been playing this one for almost 5 years.
So what am I waiting for ? Simple enough : I'm waiting for PvP to become fun, with sportsmanship and without trolls.
I suppose I'll wait 20 more years, and I'm being optimistic here.
You must not play any real team sports irl then. Certainly nothing like that occurs there
In real team sports the teams are generally kept even. You don't have 10 vs 1 - because that would make for a pretty stupid game.
Team sports have rules.
So does PVP. PVP in ESO allows and intends to create unbalanced fights. If you don't want that, duel. For those of us who like that, and who accept that this is how PVP is designed and intended, its not a stupid game. It can actually be a fun challenge.
You don't have to like it. You do have to accept that's how PVP works, by design. Working as intended.
I notice that a good many complaints come from people who have problems accepting PVP as it is, rather than PVP as they want it to be.
No one says you have to like PVP as it is. But complaining that PVP wasn't designed to fit your tastes seems kinda silly to me.
Its just a recipe for disappointment.
Oh it's not only stupid when people gang up on others with grotesquely unfair odds - but it is extremely stupid. And there is certainly nothing fun or challenging about it either.
I was pointing out facts, not really complaining. Comparing the stupid crap that goes on in Imperial City to real team sports was just a terrible comparison.
I would also love to see you come fight me and 5 other of my buddies Varanis and see how much of a fun challenge you have trying to 1 vs 6 us? Oh - and lose your stones every time you die while trying to do it (because that's what you are going to do - is die.) I can promise you the last thing you will be having while doing that is fun.
You have a PvP guild and run around with a team helping you. So you are in an entirely different circumstance than a lot of the others being massacred in Imperial City. You need to keep that in mind. Not everyone is so lucky as you.
Chill out. I solo in IC. My guild plays in Cyrodiil. And yeah, I die a lot in Imperial City. I can't get too worked up about it.
We've also moved a little far afield of describing PvPvE in IC and into the realm of opinion, so I'd like to clarify a little.
I'm not trying to tell you that your complaint is a wrong opinion to hold. I'm trying to tell you how PVP is designed and intended.
You can hoId whatever opinion you like. But PVP works the way it does as designed and intended by ZOS, and that's independent of any opinion.
Okay, hope that helped.
Now for my opinion on having fun, since you challenged me to a hypothetical forum duel with you and your 5 friends
I have fun in PVP because I accept PVP for what it is. If I fight you and and your 5 buddies on the way to a boss, I will die. I will rez up, respawn elsewhere, and find something else in Imperial City to do, like fighting a different boss. And I will have fun, because I accept that dying in PVP is normal, okay, and nothing worth being upset over.
I don't expect to win every fight or to never lose progress. I expect to fight outnumbered and to die when I do, to rez up, and either try again or to figure out another way to accomplish my goal. Win or lose, PVP is fun for me, even when I die horribly outnumbered, because my attitude is such that "fun" isnt destroyed by losing. For me, the fun comes from playing, from fighting, from winning and losing, from picking myself up again and trying to accomplish my goal some other way. I may not accomplish my goal, but I'll have fun along the way!
I don't know how you define "fun" for you. I suspect, given past conversations, that we have very different definitions. I have a pretty good guess that you don't much like PVP as it is.
I won't mind dying to you and your 5 friends. I will still have fun. For me, that's business as usual in Imperial City. Its water off a duck.
I'm getting the feeling that's not true for you.
So what does that mean for our ongoing conversations?
I truly think you'd have a better time if you accepted PVP as it is, rather than tying your idea of "fun in PVP" to how you wish PVP worked. Most of your complaints I look at and think "I dunno what you want. This is just how PVP works. Accept it and have fun, or don't and continue to be annoyed by PVP working as intended."
So I dunno what you want, even now.
PVP is designed and working as intended to create unfair matchups. Even BGs has lots of times where players can gang up on someone separated from their theorectically equal teams.
You can accept it as I do and have fun.
Or you can not accept it and continue to be annoyed when nothing changes, because PVP is working as intended.
I guess I don't understand the point of the latter. Maybe you can let me know?
I'm perfectly chill. I just think it's incredibly stupid when people zerg down lone individuals or smaller numbers of players - which in my experience is primarily what occurs in Imperial City. I don't understand how you or anyone else can describe that crap as fun and challenging. Where is the fun and challenge in mowing down some poor guy trying to farm stones with a group of players? Sorry. I just don't see it.
Whether it's working as intended or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. It's still stupid regardless. Maybe it was intended to be stupid. But accepting that isn't going to any less dumb to me - and certainly isn't going to make it more fun.
And I wasn't really challenging you to anything. I was just trying to describe a hypothetical in order for you to see this from the other person's perspective. You are in a PvP guild that aids you in Imperial City. That is likely why you find it fun. If you were the lone guy getting rolled over by zergs and losing all his or her stones over a stupid and unfair death they had no chance to defend themselves against you likely wouldn't find the place so fun. That was my point.
As far as what "I want". Nothing, really. It was you who directed your comment at me after all. I was just pointing out the flaws in comparing the Imperial City to real life Team Sports - because the two of them are nothing alike. No one would go watch a foot ball game where you had 10 players vs 1. Why? Because it would be a very stupid and unfair game. Much like Imperial City is.
Why would you use football as an example? People will definitely watch a football game like that, havent you ever heard of double or triple coverage. What about a punt return? Isnt the entire team going after on individual (solo if they break away and have a good run)? Point is IC is no different then any other team sport. I'm not even going to get into rugby, that would blow your mind, but the comparison to real life sports is very valid. Even your own examples less prove it. Look at hockey too, is it unfair to play a 5v4 or 5v3 for a few minutes due to penalties? Do people not enjoy hockey because of this?
The fun is in the challenge of getting the stones back. It is a huge rush when you have tons of stones on you and to you escape the pack and bank it. Same goes for the otherside, I had a good duel with a DC sorc in the sewers and killing him to see 7k telvar as a reward added extra reward to a hard fought battle. You're focusing all on the negatives you percieve in IC so you naturally won't have a good time.
If you're playing IC solo that is your choice and you have no one to blame but yourself. The IC servers are pop locked atm and it's very easy to find or form a group. When the event is over I can see IC being more populated than it was before and even then it shouldn't be too hard to find groups or solo. These aren't problems with IC, they are problems with you.
I used a real life sports as an example because that's what was being used as a comparison.
People would not watch a game where it was an entire team against one person. That would be the most boring and stupid game imaginable. So we disagree.
I also see no fun in trying to get back stones from a zerg that just rolled you. That actually sounds like a very futile and miserable course of action. So good luck having "fun" trying to do that. As to your 1v1 "duel" with a sorcerer in Imperial City - those are so rare in my experience they aren't worth mentioning and no one should expect that to happen when they travel there.
Where we do agree is that anyone who attempts to farm in I.C. alone - especially during this event - and especially if they travel far from their base - are just asking for a miserable death. Which is why I frequently tell people on these forums not to put themselves through the torture of it. Either have a group with you or stay near your base - or roll a Night Blade.Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Been playing MMOs for 20 years. Been playing this one for almost 5 years.
So what am I waiting for ? Simple enough : I'm waiting for PvP to become fun, with sportsmanship and without trolls.
I suppose I'll wait 20 more years, and I'm being optimistic here.
You must not play any real team sports irl then. Certainly nothing like that occurs there
In real team sports the teams are generally kept even. You don't have 10 vs 1 - because that would make for a pretty stupid game.
Team sports have rules.
So does PVP. PVP in ESO allows and intends to create unbalanced fights. If you don't want that, duel. For those of us who like that, and who accept that this is how PVP is designed and intended, its not a stupid game. It can actually be a fun challenge.
You don't have to like it. You do have to accept that's how PVP works, by design. Working as intended.
I notice that a good many complaints come from people who have problems accepting PVP as it is, rather than PVP as they want it to be.
No one says you have to like PVP as it is. But complaining that PVP wasn't designed to fit your tastes seems kinda silly to me.
Its just a recipe for disappointment.
Oh it's not only stupid when people gang up on others with grotesquely unfair odds - but it is extremely stupid. And there is certainly nothing fun or challenging about it either.
I was pointing out facts, not really complaining. Comparing the stupid crap that goes on in Imperial City to real team sports was just a terrible comparison.
I would also love to see you come fight me and 5 other of my buddies Varanis and see how much of a fun challenge you have trying to 1 vs 6 us? Oh - and lose your stones every time you die while trying to do it (because that's what you are going to do - is die.) I can promise you the last thing you will be having while doing that is fun.
You have a PvP guild and run around with a team helping you. So you are in an entirely different circumstance than a lot of the others being massacred in Imperial City. You need to keep that in mind. Not everyone is so lucky as you.
Chill out. I solo in IC. My guild plays in Cyrodiil. And yeah, I die a lot in Imperial City. I can't get too worked up about it.
We've also moved a little far afield of describing PvPvE in IC and into the realm of opinion, so I'd like to clarify a little.
I'm not trying to tell you that your complaint is a wrong opinion to hold. I'm trying to tell you how PVP is designed and intended.
You can hoId whatever opinion you like. But PVP works the way it does as designed and intended by ZOS, and that's independent of any opinion.
Okay, hope that helped.
Now for my opinion on having fun, since you challenged me to a hypothetical forum duel with you and your 5 friends
I have fun in PVP because I accept PVP for what it is. If I fight you and and your 5 buddies on the way to a boss, I will die. I will rez up, respawn elsewhere, and find something else in Imperial City to do, like fighting a different boss. And I will have fun, because I accept that dying in PVP is normal, okay, and nothing worth being upset over.
I don't expect to win every fight or to never lose progress. I expect to fight outnumbered and to die when I do, to rez up, and either try again or to figure out another way to accomplish my goal. Win or lose, PVP is fun for me, even when I die horribly outnumbered, because my attitude is such that "fun" isnt destroyed by losing. For me, the fun comes from playing, from fighting, from winning and losing, from picking myself up again and trying to accomplish my goal some other way. I may not accomplish my goal, but I'll have fun along the way!
I don't know how you define "fun" for you. I suspect, given past conversations, that we have very different definitions. I have a pretty good guess that you don't much like PVP as it is.
I won't mind dying to you and your 5 friends. I will still have fun. For me, that's business as usual in Imperial City. Its water off a duck.
I'm getting the feeling that's not true for you.
So what does that mean for our ongoing conversations?
I truly think you'd have a better time if you accepted PVP as it is, rather than tying your idea of "fun in PVP" to how you wish PVP worked. Most of your complaints I look at and think "I dunno what you want. This is just how PVP works. Accept it and have fun, or don't and continue to be annoyed by PVP working as intended."
So I dunno what you want, even now.
PVP is designed and working as intended to create unfair matchups. Even BGs has lots of times where players can gang up on someone separated from their theorectically equal teams.
You can accept it as I do and have fun.
Or you can not accept it and continue to be annoyed when nothing changes, because PVP is working as intended.
I guess I don't understand the point of the latter. Maybe you can let me know?
I'm perfectly chill. I just think it's incredibly stupid when people zerg down lone individuals or smaller numbers of players - which in my experience is primarily what occurs in Imperial City. I don't understand how you or anyone else can describe that crap as fun and challenging. Where is the fun and challenge in mowing down some poor guy trying to farm stones with a group of players? Sorry. I just don't see it.
Whether it's working as intended or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. It's still stupid regardless. Maybe it was intended to be stupid. But accepting that isn't going to any less dumb to me - and certainly isn't going to make it more fun.
And I wasn't really challenging you to anything. I was just trying to describe a hypothetical in order for you to see this from the other person's perspective. You are in a PvP guild that aids you in Imperial City. That is likely why you find it fun. If you were the lone guy getting rolled over by zergs and losing all his or her stones over a stupid and unfair death they had no chance to defend themselves against you likely wouldn't find the place so fun. That was my point.
As far as what "I want". Nothing, really. It was you who directed your comment at me after all. I was just pointing out the flaws in comparing the Imperial City to real life Team Sports - because the two of them are nothing alike. No one would go watch a foot ball game where you had 10 players vs 1. Why? Because it would be a very stupid and unfair game. Much like Imperial City is.
Why would you use football as an example? People will definitely watch a football game like that, havent you ever heard of double or triple coverage. What about a punt return? Isnt the entire team going after on individual (solo if they break away and have a good run)? Point is IC is no different then any other team sport. I'm not even going to get into rugby, that would blow your mind, but the comparison to real life sports is very valid. Even your own examples less prove it. Look at hockey too, is it unfair to play a 5v4 or 5v3 for a few minutes due to penalties? Do people not enjoy hockey because of this?
The fun is in the challenge of getting the stones back. It is a huge rush when you have tons of stones on you and to you escape the pack and bank it. Same goes for the otherside, I had a good duel with a DC sorc in the sewers and killing him to see 7k telvar as a reward added extra reward to a hard fought battle. You're focusing all on the negatives you percieve in IC so you naturally won't have a good time.
If you're playing IC solo that is your choice and you have no one to blame but yourself. The IC servers are pop locked atm and it's very easy to find or form a group. When the event is over I can see IC being more populated than it was before and even then it shouldn't be too hard to find groups or solo. These aren't problems with IC, they are problems with you.
I used a real life sports as an example because that's what was being used as a comparison.
People would not watch a game where it was an entire team against one person. That would be the most boring and stupid game imaginable. So we disagree.
I also see no fun in trying to get back stones from a zerg that just rolled you. That actually sounds like a very futile and miserable course of action. So good luck having "fun" trying to do that. As to your 1v1 "duel" with a sorcerer in Imperial City - those are so rare in my experience they aren't worth mentioning and no one should expect that to happen when they travel there.
Where we do agree is that anyone who attempts to farm in I.C. alone - especially during this event - and especially if they travel far from their base - are just asking for a miserable death. Which is why I frequently tell people on these forums not to put themselves through the torture of it. Either have a group with you or stay near your base - or roll a Night Blade.
People would watch games where people are outnumbered, they do currently. We do disagree but that's because your point is moot.
Well that's an opinion and seeing as you've never done it before I rewill respectfully say you dont deserve an opinion on the matter if you can't do it. I dont need luck to have fun as I am already proficient in PVE and PVP although I can't say the same for you. Also my duel is rare in your experience because you have 0 experience to rely on. Putting 10min into IC doesn't make you an authority, especially when your "facts" are your own opinions.
I dont agree with this at all. I play primarily solo and when I say the decision lies with you and the blame is on you it is because you should go in either willing to learn or understanding you will die eventually. I'd you get ganked get better, dont go whining for nerds and how awful the content is because you can't do it. It happens to everyone and you thinking it is a woe is me moment is just selfish. It's the real reason why you tell people not to go into IC. You can't let other people have fun and enjoy themselves because you refuse to learn an aspect of the game.
You could roll a night blade, or you could invest in pvp armor like you would for any over dungeon, or use invisibility potions, or ya know just put in an ounce of effort at all.Edited by Rave the Histborn on September 8, 2019 3:22AM -
StormeReigns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Okay...MehrunesFlagon wrote: »Never understood why Pve'ers take getting killed by random average Jane and Joe to such a personal level, that they have to use mental illness, health, and comparisons to violent criminals and historical tragedies to find way to find closure and compassion from others.
If you have a better explanation as to why people would enjoy slaughtering other players in some lop-sided boring battle where they have no hopes of defending themselves I'd like to hear it?
Because it's certainly not interesting or fun game play. But for some weird reason - just knowing there is another player behind the screen controlling the pixels they are slaughtering makes it fun for them. I don't see zergs running around on the landscape slaughtering mud crabs for enjoyment (unless their bots that is).
So if you could explain it to me why it's fun for them to slaughter defenseless pixels when a player is controlling it yet not fun when it's an AI controlled pixel I'd be happy to hear it? Otherwise the only explanation I can think of is that they enjoy griefing others. But like I said - if you have an alternative explanation I'll gladly hear it.
So in your personal opinion and preferences a simple minor inconvenience, such as a gank is comparable to the Holocaust, school shootings, literal violent sexual assaults and attacks... and I need to find an "alternative" to describe a minor inconvenience?
Nice to know where Pve'ers stand.
A minor inconvenience would be like the rich paying taxes.
So, explain, please, why is it so emotionally, mentally/psychologically, and nearly physically traumatizing to have a virtual death caused by another player, when vast majority of PvP encounters with in Cyr and IC are one and done encounters and run of the mill ganks and most events are often swarm zergs that last most 20-30 minutes in a predictable cycle?
I honestly want to know why and how it becomes that traumatizing, why is it perfectly okay, and often highly suggested to use horrific real world events as analogies to an event that is minuscule and mundane at the most.
Yes, having your character die is an annoyance; but - where is the connection to it being so traumatizing that warrants such analogies? -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭PVP isn't for everyone. This applies to RL sports and even the workplace as well. It's a minority of people who actually enjoy competition against other people.
It's a mistake for ZOS to push players into this kind of arena through inducements like event tickets. Furthermore, they've watered down PVP for years to make it more accessible which has resulted in the thoroughly unenjoyable tank meta and faction stacks of Cyrodiil.
I wish PVE and PVP ESO were separate games that could be played independently.
But there is rarely any real competition in Imperial City. It's mostly just zergs mowing down smaller quantities of players or ganking players when they most vulnerable during PvE encounters. So I would argue If anything makes PvP unenjoyable it's that. Not this "tank meta".
So why do PvPers rarely if ever actually ever criticize the one element of PvP that is most responsible for making it imbalanced and unfair? Instead they complain about players gearing defensively so they cannot die even faster. Hmm... sounds suspicious to me.
In short: If PvPers were truly interested in competitive game play they would be more critical of zerging as a tactic and seek for ways to make the odds more even so competitive game play could actually be realized. But instead - they almost universally defend the practice of massing numbers so your opponents have no real chance to win or fight back. This says to me they really aren't interested in competitive game play at all and by and large, they just want to kill other players because it amuses them.
So I wish we could stop spreading this nonsense that PvPers are interested in skilled and competitive game play. That may be true of some of them. But not the vast bulk - who simply put - just want to kill other players for amusement and are willing to resort to what ever tactics they can to make that happen. And all anyone who doubts this truth has to do is take a stroll into Imperial City to confirm it.
Most PVP players criticize zerg balls and but it's not in anyway illegal in game. There's nothing stopping you from joining the casual zergs. Also what would you do to stop zergs? Also just want to point out ther zergs are mainly comprised of PVE players that journey into pvp which is why they use these tactics. This says to me that the pve players arent really interested in learning to pvp and thus need to use tactics like this The most likely scenario is that pve doesn't actually promote player improvement, if it did there would be no reason for zergs as everyone would be willing to learn, adapt, and compete.
I wish that we could stop this nonsense that pve players are skilled. Learning a static rotation and mechanics that remain unchanging after the initial and very small learning curve for each dungeon doesn't promote skill and competitive play. Pvp players have to enter pve to gear for pvp battles, the same can't be said for pve players. The vast bulk -simply put- want the fastest and easiest experience possible in a game meant to be played for year and are willing to resort to whatever tactics are possibly (skyreach runs, buying skill lines, etc.). And anyone who doubts this truth only has to queue up for dungeon finder. Watch as your tank is actually a dps with no taunts or your dps spend the whole time spaming snipe or heavy attacks. You'll be wishing you were getting zergs by pvp players just for the change of scenery as you carry through cp 80s that queue for vet dlc dungeons
-
hakan✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »PVP isn't for everyone. This applies to RL sports and even the workplace as well. It's a minority of people who actually enjoy competition against other people.
It's a mistake for ZOS to push players into this kind of arena through inducements like event tickets. Furthermore, they've watered down PVP for years to make it more accessible which has resulted in the thoroughly unenjoyable tank meta and faction stacks of Cyrodiil.
I wish PVE and PVP ESO were separate games that could be played independently.
But there is rarely any real competition in Imperial City. It's mostly just zergs mowing down smaller quantities of players or ganking players when they most vulnerable during PvE encounters. So I would argue If anything makes PvP unenjoyable it's that. Not this "tank meta".
So why do PvPers rarely if ever actually ever criticize the one element of PvP that is most responsible for making it imbalanced and unfair? Instead they complain about players gearing defensively so they cannot die even faster. Hmm... sounds suspicious to me.
In short: If PvPers were truly interested in competitive game play they would be more critical of zerging as a tactic and seek for ways to make the odds more even so competitive game play could actually be realized. But instead - they almost universally defend the practice of massing numbers so your opponents have no real chance to win or fight back. This says to me they really aren't interested in competitive game play at all and by and large, they just want to kill other players because it amuses them.
So I wish we could stop spreading this nonsense that PvPers are interested in skilled and competitive game play. That may be true of some of them. But not the vast bulk - who simply put - just want to kill other players for amusement and are willing to resort to what ever tactics they can to make that happen. And all anyone who doubts this truth has to do is take a stroll into Imperial City to confirm it.
Most PVP players criticize zerg balls and but it's not in anyway illegal in game. There's nothing stopping you from joining the casual zergs. Also what would you do to stop zergs? Also just want to point out ther zergs are mainly comprised of PVE players that journey into pvp which is why they use these tactics. This says to me that the pve players arent really interested in learning to pvp and thus need to use tactics like this The most likely scenario is that pve doesn't actually promote player improvement, if it did there would be no reason for zergs as everyone would be willing to learn, adapt, and compete.
I wish that we could stop this nonsense that pve players are skilled. Learning a static rotation and mechanics that remain unchanging after the initial and very small learning curve for each dungeon doesn't promote skill and competitive play. Pvp players have to enter pve to gear for pvp battles, the same can't be said for pve players. The vast bulk -simply put- want the fastest and easiest experience possible in a game meant to be played for year and are willing to resort to whatever tactics are possibly (skyreach runs, buying skill lines, etc.). And anyone who doubts this truth only has to queue up for dungeon finder. Watch as your tank is actually a dps with no taunts or your dps spend the whole time spaming snipe or heavy attacks. You'll be wishing you were getting zergs by pvp players just for the change of scenery as you carry through cp 80s that queue for vet dlc dungeons
dude they just want to mow the players down like they are npcs/mobs. all this "toxic", " unfair" talks are bs. -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »
Wuuuut? Two Aldmeri Dominion Sloads fighting it out with a Daggerfall Covenant sword and an Ebonheart Pact sword?I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me! -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Been playing MMOs for 20 years. Been playing this one for almost 5 years.
So what am I waiting for ? Simple enough : I'm waiting for PvP to become fun, with sportsmanship and without trolls.
I suppose I'll wait 20 more years, and I'm being optimistic here.
I used to play PvP in MMOs, but then MOBAs came out. I was perpetually frustrated with balance in MMO PvP. MOBAs avoid this problem because they are designed solely for PvP. MOBAs also make it easy to switch characters since you don't need to invest any time into starting a new character (beyond just learning their skills and play style). Having your fully geared character become obsolete in an MMO requires you to waste dozens of hours levelling up/gearing a new one.Edited by MLGProPlayer on September 8, 2019 10:39AM -
The_Lex✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Nope, cant backpedal from it now.Never understood why Pve'ers take getting killed by random average Jane and Joe to such a personal level, that they have to use mental illness, health, and comparisons to violent criminals and historical tragedies to find way to find closure and compassion from others.
If you have a better explanation as to why people would enjoy slaughtering other players in some lop-sided boring battle where they have no hopes of defending themselves I'd like to hear it?
Because it's certainly not interesting or fun game play. But for some weird reason - just knowing there is another player behind the screen controlling the pixels they are slaughtering makes it fun for them. I don't see zergs running around on the landscape slaughtering mud crabs for enjoyment (unless their bots that is).
So if you could explain it to me why it's fun for them to slaughter defenseless pixels when a player is controlling it yet not fun when it's an AI controlled pixel I'd be happy to hear it? Otherwise the only explanation I can think of is that they enjoy griefing others. But like I said - if you have an alternative explanation I'll gladly hear it.
So in your personal opinion and preferences a simple minor inconvenience, such as a gank is comparable to the Holocaust, school shootings, literal violent sexual assaults and attacks... and I need to find an "alternative" to describe a minor inconvenience?
Nice to know where Pve'ers stand.
I don't think it's comparable to mass murder and sexual assaults. That's of course ridiculous.
But I do believe there is an element of griefing involved - where there is a desire to cause someone else a degree of personal annoyance and that is what makes it fun for them.
A minor inconvenience.ike I said; if you have an alternative theory I'll be happy to entertain it.
I'm not back pedaling.
I am making the argument there is a personal element to it - such as wanting to annoy the other person and that is what makes it fun for them.
If you have an alternative theory as to why they would enjoy that sort of thing - then I'm all ears (or eyes).
If I attack someone in IC, I can assure you that farthest thing from my mind is "wanting to annoy the other person..." On the contrary, when I see a different alliance's symbol above a player's head, I size up whether I think I can take them or not. If I think I can take them, or at least make it a really good fight, I do it. No other reason. I have after all, entered a PvP zone.
You are projecting your own frustration and inconvenience (or perhaps feelings of inadequacy) on the motivations of the other player.
Edited by The_Lex on September 9, 2019 5:35PMPC NA | @The_LexGuilds:
Tamriel Vault
Fengrush Inc
Moar Dottz
Dippin Dottz
Ink, Inc.
Characters (PC NA):
Dragonknight
Vaaljørn | Nord Dragonknight | Tank/Stamina DPS | EP
Necromancer
Martok Bloodytusk | Orc Necromancer | Stamina DPS | DC
Nightblade
Dro-Zhirr | Khajiit Nightblade | Stamina DPS | EP
R'jhirr the Wanderer | Khajiit Nightblade | Magicka DPS | DC
Sorcerer
Worf of Sto'Vo'Kor | Orc Sorcerer | Stamina DPS | EP
Maldarin Direnni | Altmer Sorcerer | Magicka DPS | EP
Templar
Vaanrith | Dunmer Templar | Crafter | EP
Brejan Garak | Breton Templar | Healer | EP
Warden
Hallbjörn Stormblade | Nord Warden | Stamina DPS | EP
Hannibal Travan | Breton Warden | Magicka DPS | EP -
The_Lex✭✭✭✭✭
✭Never understood why Pve'ers take getting killed by random average Jane and Joe to such a personal level, that they have to use mental illness, health, and comparisons to violent criminals and historical tragedies to find way to find closure and compassion from others.
ThisPC NA | @The_LexGuilds:
Tamriel Vault
Fengrush Inc
Moar Dottz
Dippin Dottz
Ink, Inc.
Characters (PC NA):
Dragonknight
Vaaljørn | Nord Dragonknight | Tank/Stamina DPS | EP
Necromancer
Martok Bloodytusk | Orc Necromancer | Stamina DPS | DC
Nightblade
Dro-Zhirr | Khajiit Nightblade | Stamina DPS | EP
R'jhirr the Wanderer | Khajiit Nightblade | Magicka DPS | DC
Sorcerer
Worf of Sto'Vo'Kor | Orc Sorcerer | Stamina DPS | EP
Maldarin Direnni | Altmer Sorcerer | Magicka DPS | EP
Templar
Vaanrith | Dunmer Templar | Crafter | EP
Brejan Garak | Breton Templar | Healer | EP
Warden
Hallbjörn Stormblade | Nord Warden | Stamina DPS | EP
Hannibal Travan | Breton Warden | Magicka DPS | EP -
Odovacar✭✭✭✭✭
✭I honestly think a lot of people (PS4-NA) have been "trying out" the IC event with PvE gear ...they're melting too fast, lol. Hey, if you don't like PvP that's ok too folks...we all like what we like.
Have fun folks! Father of 3 ESO player - Daily late night logins ; )
RIP my Eldest son Aiden who we lost to brain cancer 7/13/20.
If you want to achieve higher rewards it will not be easy, at first. Never give up on yourself IRL or in-game!
PS4: NA & EURemember to have fun because at the end of the day that's what this whole gaming thing is about. -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »PVP isn't for everyone. This applies to RL sports and even the workplace as well. It's a minority of people who actually enjoy competition against other people.
It's a mistake for ZOS to push players into this kind of arena through inducements like event tickets. Furthermore, they've watered down PVP for years to make it more accessible which has resulted in the thoroughly unenjoyable tank meta and faction stacks of Cyrodiil.
I wish PVE and PVP ESO were separate games that could be played independently.
But there is rarely any real competition in Imperial City. It's mostly just zergs mowing down smaller quantities of players or ganking players when they most vulnerable during PvE encounters. So I would argue If anything makes PvP unenjoyable it's that. Not this "tank meta".
So why do PvPers rarely if ever actually ever criticize the one element of PvP that is most responsible for making it imbalanced and unfair? Instead they complain about players gearing defensively so they cannot die even faster. Hmm... sounds suspicious to me.
In short: If PvPers were truly interested in competitive game play they would be more critical of zerging as a tactic and seek for ways to make the odds more even so competitive game play could actually be realized. But instead - they almost universally defend the practice of massing numbers so your opponents have no real chance to win or fight back. This says to me they really aren't interested in competitive game play at all and by and large, they just want to kill other players because it amuses them.
So I wish we could stop spreading this nonsense that PvPers are interested in skilled and competitive game play. That may be true of some of them. But not the vast bulk - who simply put - just want to kill other players for amusement and are willing to resort to what ever tactics they can to make that happen. And all anyone who doubts this truth has to do is take a stroll into Imperial City to confirm it.
Most PVP players criticize zerg balls and but it's not in anyway illegal in game. There's nothing stopping you from joining the casual zergs. Also what would you do to stop zergs? Also just want to point out ther zergs are mainly comprised of PVE players that journey into pvp which is why they use these tactics. This says to me that the pve players arent really interested in learning to pvp and thus need to use tactics like this The most likely scenario is that pve doesn't actually promote player improvement, if it did there would be no reason for zergs as everyone would be willing to learn, adapt, and compete.
I wish that we could stop this nonsense that pve players are skilled. Learning a static rotation and mechanics that remain unchanging after the initial and very small learning curve for each dungeon doesn't promote skill and competitive play. Pvp players have to enter pve to gear for pvp battles, the same can't be said for pve players. The vast bulk -simply put- want the fastest and easiest experience possible in a game meant to be played for year and are willing to resort to whatever tactics are possibly (skyreach runs, buying skill lines, etc.). And anyone who doubts this truth only has to queue up for dungeon finder. Watch as your tank is actually a dps with no taunts or your dps spend the whole time spaming snipe or heavy attacks. You'll be wishing you were getting zergs by pvp players just for the change of scenery as you carry through cp 80s that queue for vet dlc dungeons
Zerg balling smaller quantities of players isn't "skill". It's just mindless slaughter reliant on greater numbers. And that is what I was referring to.
Whether or not you think PvE is skilled or not wasn't my point. The point was the vast majority of PvP battles in this game - especially as it relates to Imperial city and Cyrodil - are a numbers game and have absolutely nothing to do with "out-skilling" your opponent. So this entire narrative that PvP is so much more "skill-based" than PvE is a crock of ____. It isn't.
So I'm not spreading "nonsense". I"m spreading the truth. If PvPers want to prove me wrong - then by all means they are welcome to. But talk is cheap. Actions is what counts. So until I stop seeing the majority of PvPers resort to vastly outnumbering their opponents to win I'm going to continue to spread what is the obvious truth. I understand you may not like hearing it. But it's often the case that the truth is difficult to hear for some people.
I also never said zerging your opponents to death was "illegal" or against the rules. So you are arguing a point that was never made to begin with. What I said is it has nothing to do with "skill". And it doesn't.Edited by Jeremy on September 9, 2019 7:02PM
