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About racial status of the Ayleids

  • storm105
    storm105
    ✭✭
    psychotrip wrote: »
    storm105 wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    storm105 wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    I think you missed one of my posts. Here's the abridged version:

    -an in-game book
    -Bethesda themselves in a loading screen
    -similar aesthetic, architecture, and motifs
    -similar appearance
    -an almost identical language.
    -swore fealty to Alinor
    -Ayleid revivalists being Altmer
    -An Altmer Ayleid revivalist thinking he can rule a new Ayleid empire

    You addressed a few of these but ignored several of them. I bolded them for you.

    There is evidence, both explicit and implied. Far more than what you have. You can poke holes in any one of these, but put them all together and they form a pattern you can't dispute.

    I also dont understand how this argument is still going since it seems most people are disagreeing with you here.

    I don't see how the ayleid revivalist bring an altmer means much it's like how imperials have a lot of Nordic propaganda. It seems more like they feel they are close enough to try and take credit. Just like the falmer historian in Morrowind. Also again other more books and loading screens still say they were just aldmer rather than altmer. As for language the language is simply said to be derived from the aldmer language and it was also said to be similar to "old cyrodilic" in one book. This really doesnt seen like they are anything more than cousins. Even the swearing to alinor thing can only be found in a single source.

    Do you actually have evidence for your claims?

    Yeah and I've repeated it several times. Multiple more books simply just listghrm as a nother race of mer and the eso loading screen. It seems to me like you people are just stuck trying to defend your own head Canon even if it's been proven wrong at this point.

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleidoon

    All elven languages are related since they are derived from aldmeris



    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Wild_Elves

    First link doesnt really prove anything. No one is denying that all elven languages are related. Ayleid and Altmeri appear nearly identical, far moreso than any other elven language. The same goes for their architecture. No two elven races are closer. Many of their ruins are literally identical.

    The wild elves is really the only piece of evidence you have, and the book itself was written before elven lore really solidified. Fun fact: the original version of that book calls bosmer "boiche", high elves "salache" and dark elves "moriche". Because the book was written in Daggerfall, before the lore was really finished.

    That honestly might explain the disconnect here. Maybe ORIGINALLY they were a separate race, then from Morrowind to Skyrim they were Altmer, and then when ESO came out they went back to being separate?

    We have several explicit pieces of evidence that says they are high elves, including Bethesda themselves saying that in a loading screen. In addition we have several more pieces of implied evidence, which while admittedly weaker add up and reinforce the explicit references. It's all a pattern, and its all implying the same thing over and over again.

    Again, just look at the volume of evidence we listed compared to yours.

    You really havent addressed the fact that Bethesda themselves have said this in an Oblivion loading screen. How can you deny that? Bethesda said they were high elves.

    And it honestly feels like a cop out to ignore the Ayleid revivalist stuff. Sure its POSSIBLE that these Altmer are not related at all to Ayleids, but that makes their role in the lore much weaker. It makes much more narrative sense for them to feel personally connected to the Ayleids and want to revive their culture. The alternative would be like if a bunch of Germans wanted to revive ancient Egypt. Sure it's POSSIBLE for them to want to do that, but kind of strange and not very compelling from a storytelling perspective.

    In fact, here's what Umbacano himself says:
    Here it is... the throne of the last king of the Ayleids. And so it falls to me to begin the restoration of our ancient glory... Av Sunna Tam Riel arctavoy an Arpen Aran malaburo!" If you try to stop him by talking to him, he will say, "You are about to witness the glorious rebirth of Ayleid civilization. Stand aside!" If you gave him the Crown of Nenalata, he will be transformed into the King of Nenalata and will turn hostile, forcing you to fight him. He will also summon a large number of undead, saying, "Arise, my people! The restoration of Tam Riel begins today!"

    Umbacano calls the Ayleids his people. Plain as day.

    This isnt about head canon. Everyone knows Ayleids arent Altmer ANYMORE. ESO retconned all that. We're just acknowledging what was explicitly told to us.

    Edit: Oh and another piece of "soft" evidence: where did the ayleids go? They didn't all just get exterminated one day. Books claim there are small tribes hiding in Cyrodiil but clearly there's not many. Didn't most of them end up assimilating into the Direnni? The Direnni are high elves. The two groups merged pretty seamlessly, implying they're the same race. Zenimax also claimed the ruins we see in Auridon are Ayleid. They later retconned this but it implies that even THEY believed they were the same race with a different culture.

    Again literally nothing you said backs up anything you've said at all. Even if the ayleids were intended to be another race of high elves pre eso pre eso lore also says they were wiped out long before that so regardless the suprmis would not be an ayleid. Either it's a high elf claiming to be a decednat meaning it wouldn't matter if they were high elves or not or he's a crazy person that considers them his people because he is mer. Either way it doesn't help and the languages aren't identical either you can read it your self. It seems like you are grasping at straws to try to help your own argument. And I did address the bethesida loading screen. Itbdoesntbrelatr them to summersrt at all. Also no you haven't listened multiple lore books of anything that is a bold face lie that is plain as day you listened absinge lore book that contradicts multiple other things and doesn't over right any more books or the pocket guides. This argument is just denial at best now.
  • psychotrip
    psychotrip
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    storm105 wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    storm105 wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    storm105 wrote: »
    psychotrip wrote: »
    I think you missed one of my posts. Here's the abridged version:

    -an in-game book
    -Bethesda themselves in a loading screen
    -similar aesthetic, architecture, and motifs
    -similar appearance
    -an almost identical language.
    -swore fealty to Alinor
    -Ayleid revivalists being Altmer
    -An Altmer Ayleid revivalist thinking he can rule a new Ayleid empire

    You addressed a few of these but ignored several of them. I bolded them for you.

    There is evidence, both explicit and implied. Far more than what you have. You can poke holes in any one of these, but put them all together and they form a pattern you can't dispute.

    I also dont understand how this argument is still going since it seems most people are disagreeing with you here.

    I don't see how the ayleid revivalist bring an altmer means much it's like how imperials have a lot of Nordic propaganda. It seems more like they feel they are close enough to try and take credit. Just like the falmer historian in Morrowind. Also again other more books and loading screens still say they were just aldmer rather than altmer. As for language the language is simply said to be derived from the aldmer language and it was also said to be similar to "old cyrodilic" in one book. This really doesnt seen like they are anything more than cousins. Even the swearing to alinor thing can only be found in a single source.

    Do you actually have evidence for your claims?

    Yeah and I've repeated it several times. Multiple more books simply just listghrm as a nother race of mer and the eso loading screen. It seems to me like you people are just stuck trying to defend your own head Canon even if it's been proven wrong at this point.

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleidoon

    All elven languages are related since they are derived from aldmeris



    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Wild_Elves

    First link doesnt really prove anything. No one is denying that all elven languages are related. Ayleid and Altmeri appear nearly identical, far moreso than any other elven language. The same goes for their architecture. No two elven races are closer. Many of their ruins are literally identical.

    The wild elves is really the only piece of evidence you have, and the book itself was written before elven lore really solidified. Fun fact: the original version of that book calls bosmer "boiche", high elves "salache" and dark elves "moriche". Because the book was written in Daggerfall, before the lore was really finished.

    That honestly might explain the disconnect here. Maybe ORIGINALLY they were a separate race, then from Morrowind to Skyrim they were Altmer, and then when ESO came out they went back to being separate?

    We have several explicit pieces of evidence that says they are high elves, including Bethesda themselves saying that in a loading screen. In addition we have several more pieces of implied evidence, which while admittedly weaker add up and reinforce the explicit references. It's all a pattern, and its all implying the same thing over and over again.

    Again, just look at the volume of evidence we listed compared to yours.

    You really havent addressed the fact that Bethesda themselves have said this in an Oblivion loading screen. How can you deny that? Bethesda said they were high elves.

    And it honestly feels like a cop out to ignore the Ayleid revivalist stuff. Sure its POSSIBLE that these Altmer are not related at all to Ayleids, but that makes their role in the lore much weaker. It makes much more narrative sense for them to feel personally connected to the Ayleids and want to revive their culture. The alternative would be like if a bunch of Germans wanted to revive ancient Egypt. Sure it's POSSIBLE for them to want to do that, but kind of strange and not very compelling from a storytelling perspective.

    In fact, here's what Umbacano himself says:
    Here it is... the throne of the last king of the Ayleids. And so it falls to me to begin the restoration of our ancient glory... Av Sunna Tam Riel arctavoy an Arpen Aran malaburo!" If you try to stop him by talking to him, he will say, "You are about to witness the glorious rebirth of Ayleid civilization. Stand aside!" If you gave him the Crown of Nenalata, he will be transformed into the King of Nenalata and will turn hostile, forcing you to fight him. He will also summon a large number of undead, saying, "Arise, my people! The restoration of Tam Riel begins today!"

    Umbacano calls the Ayleids his people. Plain as day.

    This isnt about head canon. Everyone knows Ayleids arent Altmer ANYMORE. ESO retconned all that. We're just acknowledging what was explicitly told to us.

    Edit: Oh and another piece of "soft" evidence: where did the ayleids go? They didn't all just get exterminated one day. Books claim there are small tribes hiding in Cyrodiil but clearly there's not many. Didn't most of them end up assimilating into the Direnni? The Direnni are high elves. The two groups merged pretty seamlessly, implying they're the same race. Zenimax also claimed the ruins we see in Auridon are Ayleid. They later retconned this but it implies that even THEY believed they were the same race with a different culture.

    Again literally nothing you said backs up anything you've said at all. Even if the ayleids were intended to be another race of high elves pre eso pre eso lore also says they were wiped out long before that so regardless the suprmis would not be an ayleid. Either it's a high elf claiming to be a decednat meaning it wouldn't matter if they were high elves or not or he's a crazy person that considers them his people because he is mer. Either way it doesn't help and the languages aren't identical either you can read it your self. It seems like you are grasping at straws to try to help your own argument. And I did address the bethesida loading screen. Itbdoesntbrelatr them to summersrt at all. Also no you haven't listened multiple lore books of anything that is a bold face lie that is plain as day you listened absinge lore book that contradicts multiple other things and doesn't over right any more books or the pocket guides. This argument is just denial at best now.

    Dude I think you misinderstood the Umbacano thing because I actually agree with your first point, and it actually gives credence to my point.

    Umbacano was not literally an ayleid. The ayleids are mostly gone. But he was a high elf just like the ayleids were, which is why he still called them "our people" and wanted to revive their empire.

    For a real world historical reference, look at the Greeks. In this scenario, Greeks from Greece would be Summerset high elves. The Greeks who conquered Egypt and stayed there (The Ptolemaic people) are like Ayleids. They have different cultures, slightly different language, but they're ultimately still Greek.

    As for the loading screen, I dont know what you're getting at there. I never said it said anything about Summerset. I said it called them high elves...which it did. There's no way around it. Bethesda said Ayleids were high elves. Therefore Ayleids were originally intended to be high elves.

    This conversation is going nowhere though. I understand I sometimes have controversial opinions, but this isn't one of them. Judging by the votes and other comments here, I think most people agree that Ayleids were meant to be high elves. I tried to reach commom ground with you a bit with the wild elves thing, but you're just so committed to this extreme view that most people don't seem to have.

    Maybe we're not the ones in denial over this. Maybe its you.

    Edit: Also, I never said the languages were identical. I said they were closer together than any other elven language. Same with their architecture.
    Edited by psychotrip on September 6, 2019 12:05PM
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
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