About racial status of the Ayleids

Bruccius

I've recently really been digging into the Ayleids, and I couldn't help but ask myself, are they really a race?

I do not mean this in the sense of, are they part of a race, but rather, are they a race of themselves? Everyone knows the Ayleids are the ''Heartland High Elves'', but that's kind of the point. They're Heartland High Elves. Their architecture is similar to that of the Altmer, they used magical stones similar to those of the Altmer, and they even worshipped the Ten Ancestors (until they started to worship the Daedra), not to forget they originally paid tribute to the king of Alinor.

Is the term ''Ayleid'' merely a distinction between the Altmer of Cyrodiil and those of Summerset? And if so, what would this distinction be based upon? Culture? Geography?

Llidoryc

if i remember correctly they all of the elves were the same species from aldmeris until the mass exodus from summerset. like the ayleids and the chimer were the same but evolved cultural differences later distinguished them as separate peoples

LukosCreyden

"Ayleid" is more a term that defines their culture, rather than their race. Physically, they are no different.

Bruccius

Llidoryc wrote: »

if i remember correctly they all of the elves were the same species from aldmeris until the mass exodus from summerset. like the ayleids and the chimer were the same but evolved cultural differences later distinguished them as separate peoples

I hadn't taken the Chimer into consideration, that seems to further support the idea that it's indeed merely a cultural thing.

VaIerius

LukosCreyden wrote: »

"Ayleid" is more a term that defines their culture, rather than their race. Physically, they are no different.

Ayleids have a more brown tanned skin than Altmer. Otherwise they are physically identical.

Ogou

VaIerius wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

"Ayleid" is more a term that defines their culture, rather than their race. Physically, they are no different.

Ayleids have a more brown tanned skin than Altmer. Otherwise they are physically identical.

Don't remember seeing anything supporting the idea that tanning is a thing on Nirn but is it possible that it's just a consequence of the climate?

AnomanderisPurake

Ogou wrote: »

VaIerius wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

"Ayleid" is more a term that defines their culture, rather than their race. Physically, they are no different.

Ayleids have a more brown tanned skin than Altmer. Otherwise they are physically identical.

Don't remember seeing anything supporting the idea that tanning is a thing on Nirn but is it possible that it's just a consequence of the climate?

How can tanning not be a thing on Nirn? Of course people tan!

As for the OP's question:

The Ayleids were indeed a group of emigrating elves from Alinor, just like the Direnni who settled High Rock or the Chimer who settled in Morrowind. The Ayleids then turned to the worship of the Daedra and this caused a rift between the Altmer of Alinor and the Altmer of the Heartlands. The Ayleids are known to engage in all sorts of morbid recreational activities that Daedra love, like flesh sculpture- a process wherein a live subject is cut open, its limbs, bones and other organs rearranged to create an "artistic" display. One lorebook describes a process of cutting open a human and using what I assume are the ribs as skeletal wings and using gemstones to replace eyeballs.

So in conclusion, the Ayleids were simply Altmer with a different culture.

TheRealPotoroo

AnomanderisPurake wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

VaIerius wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

"Ayleid" is more a term that defines their culture, rather than their race. Physically, they are no different.

Ayleids have a more brown tanned skin than Altmer. Otherwise they are physically identical.

Don't remember seeing anything supporting the idea that tanning is a thing on Nirn but is it possible that it's just a consequence of the climate?

How can tanning not be a thing on Nirn? Of course people tan!

As for the OP's question:

The Ayleids were indeed a group of emigrating elves from Alinor, just like the Direnni who settled High Rock or the Chimer who settled in Morrowind. The Ayleids then turned to the worship of the Daedra and this caused a rift between the Altmer of Alinor and the Altmer of the Heartlands. The Ayleids are known to engage in all sorts of morbid recreational activities that Daedra love, like flesh sculpture- a process wherein a live subject is cut open, its limbs, bones and other organs rearranged to create an "artistic" display. One lorebook describes a process of cutting open a human and using what I assume are the ribs as skeletal wings and using gemstones to replace eyeballs.

So in conclusion, the Ayleids were simply Altmer with a different culture.

Are Mer people?

In any event, the Bosmer were also part of the Altmer Aldmer expansion and they are today distinctly different from their ancestors. It is therefore entirely reasonable to assume the Ayleids could have become sufficiently different to the Altmer to be considered their own race. And that's before bringing in the more complex cases of the Dunmer and Orsimer.

Cundu_Ertur

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

AnomanderisPurake wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

VaIerius wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

"Ayleid" is more a term that defines their culture, rather than their race. Physically, they are no different.

Ayleids have a more brown tanned skin than Altmer. Otherwise they are physically identical.

Don't remember seeing anything supporting the idea that tanning is a thing on Nirn but is it possible that it's just a consequence of the climate?

How can tanning not be a thing on Nirn? Of course people tan!

As for the OP's question:

The Ayleids were indeed a group of emigrating elves from Alinor, just like the Direnni who settled High Rock or the Chimer who settled in Morrowind. The Ayleids then turned to the worship of the Daedra and this caused a rift between the Altmer of Alinor and the Altmer of the Heartlands. The Ayleids are known to engage in all sorts of morbid recreational activities that Daedra love, like flesh sculpture- a process wherein a live subject is cut open, its limbs, bones and other organs rearranged to create an "artistic" display. One lorebook describes a process of cutting open a human and using what I assume are the ribs as skeletal wings and using gemstones to replace eyeballs.

So in conclusion, the Ayleids were simply Altmer with a different culture.

Are Mer people?

In any event, the Bosmer were also part of the Altmer expansion and they are today distinctly different from their ancestors. It is therefore entirely reasonable to assume the Ayleids could have become sufficiently different to the Altmer to be considered their own race. And that's before bringing in the more complex cases of the Dunmer and Orsimer.

There are competing theories on that. Furthermore, the Altmer expansion theory is (very much) a minority one. Aldmer are, in the majority view, distinct from the Altmer in that the Altmer came from the Aldmer, as did the Dwemer, Ayleids, Falmer, and possibly even the Bosmer and Khajiit. Chimer and Orsimer may have diverged from Altmer (there is some evidence in Alinor that they did) or directly from the Aldmer. It is only Altmer propaganda that they are the 'purest' form of Elf in the world now.

TheRealPotoroo

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

AnomanderisPurake wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

VaIerius wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

"Ayleid" is more a term that defines their culture, rather than their race. Physically, they are no different.

Ayleids have a more brown tanned skin than Altmer. Otherwise they are physically identical.

Don't remember seeing anything supporting the idea that tanning is a thing on Nirn but is it possible that it's just a consequence of the climate?

How can tanning not be a thing on Nirn? Of course people tan!

As for the OP's question:

The Ayleids were indeed a group of emigrating elves from Alinor, just like the Direnni who settled High Rock or the Chimer who settled in Morrowind. The Ayleids then turned to the worship of the Daedra and this caused a rift between the Altmer of Alinor and the Altmer of the Heartlands. The Ayleids are known to engage in all sorts of morbid recreational activities that Daedra love, like flesh sculpture- a process wherein a live subject is cut open, its limbs, bones and other organs rearranged to create an "artistic" display. One lorebook describes a process of cutting open a human and using what I assume are the ribs as skeletal wings and using gemstones to replace eyeballs.

So in conclusion, the Ayleids were simply Altmer with a different culture.

Are Mer people?

In any event, the Bosmer were also part of the Altmer expansion and they are today distinctly different from their ancestors. It is therefore entirely reasonable to assume the Ayleids could have become sufficiently different to the Altmer to be considered their own race. And that's before bringing in the more complex cases of the Dunmer and Orsimer.

There are competing theories on that. Furthermore, the Altmer expansion theory is (very much) a minority one. Aldmer are, in the majority view, distinct from the Altmer in that the Altmer came from the Aldmer, as did the Dwemer, Ayleids, Falmer, and possibly even the Bosmer and Khajiit. Chimer and Orsimer may have diverged from Altmer (there is some evidence in Alinor that they did) or directly from the Aldmer. It is only Altmer propaganda that they are the 'purest' form of Elf in the world now.

I mistyped, I meant Aldmer.

Ogou

AnomanderisPurake wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

VaIerius wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

"Ayleid" is more a term that defines their culture, rather than their race. Physically, they are no different.

Ayleids have a more brown tanned skin than Altmer. Otherwise they are physically identical.

Don't remember seeing anything supporting the idea that tanning is a thing on Nirn but is it possible that it's just a consequence of the climate?

How can tanning not be a thing on Nirn? Of course people tan!

As for the OP's question:

The Ayleids were indeed a group of emigrating elves from Alinor, just like the Direnni who settled High Rock or the Chimer who settled in Morrowind. The Ayleids then turned to the worship of the Daedra and this caused a rift between the Altmer of Alinor and the Altmer of the Heartlands. The Ayleids are known to engage in all sorts of morbid recreational activities that Daedra love, like flesh sculpture- a process wherein a live subject is cut open, its limbs, bones and other organs rearranged to create an "artistic" display. One lorebook describes a process of cutting open a human and using what I assume are the ribs as skeletal wings and using gemstones to replace eyeballs.

So in conclusion, the Ayleids were simply Altmer with a different culture.

Well, the physics of nirn are different from ours. And I haven't personally seen any evidence that the people of nirn do tan.
Not to say it doesn't happen. I just haven't seen it and I don't want to assume.

red_emu

Ogou wrote: »

AnomanderisPurake wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

VaIerius wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

"Ayleid" is more a term that defines their culture, rather than their race. Physically, they are no different.

Ayleids have a more brown tanned skin than Altmer. Otherwise they are physically identical.

Don't remember seeing anything supporting the idea that tanning is a thing on Nirn but is it possible that it's just a consequence of the climate?

How can tanning not be a thing on Nirn? Of course people tan!

As for the OP's question:

The Ayleids were indeed a group of emigrating elves from Alinor, just like the Direnni who settled High Rock or the Chimer who settled in Morrowind. The Ayleids then turned to the worship of the Daedra and this caused a rift between the Altmer of Alinor and the Altmer of the Heartlands. The Ayleids are known to engage in all sorts of morbid recreational activities that Daedra love, like flesh sculpture- a process wherein a live subject is cut open, its limbs, bones and other organs rearranged to create an "artistic" display. One lorebook describes a process of cutting open a human and using what I assume are the ribs as skeletal wings and using gemstones to replace eyeballs.

So in conclusion, the Ayleids were simply Altmer with a different culture.

Well, the physics of nirn are different from ours. And I haven't personally seen any evidence that the people of nirn do tan.
Not to say it doesn't happen. I just haven't seen it and I don't want to assume.

It seems on this subject the biology of skin tones is very similar to the real world. Nords living far north in a cold climate have skin tones ranging from pure white to tan, Redguards of desert climate of Yokeda range from brown to graphite black, Bosmer and Altmer have a tan complexion too, coming from a humid, equatorial climate of Nirn.

One would assume, that the whole in the sky torn my Magnus is emitting not just magicka but UV radiation

Olauron

AnomanderisPurake wrote: »

The Ayleids then turned to the worship of the Daedra and this caused a rift between the Altmer of Alinor and the Altmer of the Heartlands. The Ayleids are known to engage in all sorts of morbid recreational activities that Daedra love, like flesh sculpture- a process wherein a live subject is cut open, its limbs, bones and other organs rearranged to create an "artistic" display. One lorebook describes a process of cutting open a human and using what I assume are the ribs as skeletal wings and using gemstones to replace eyeballs.

So in conclusion, the Ayleids were simply Altmer with a different culture.

I would say, that is not all the truth about Ayleids. From "The Wild Elves" we know that "the nature of the Ayleid tribes is multihued, their personalities often wildly different from their neighbor[ing] tribes". From "Oblivion" we know that almost everywhere the statue of Auri-El dominated the ruins. From "Glories and Laments" we also know that the city of Ceya(ta)tar is famous for its devotion to Magnus (the same city is mentioned in "The Song of Pelinal" and "The Adabal-a" as a realm of the Fire King Hadhuul). In "The Last King of the Ayleids" the civil war between Ayleid cities is described to us and the pro-Alessian kingdoms that remained after the fall of Umaril, and in "Shezarr and the Divines" we have "Empress Alessia instituted a new religion: the Eight Divines, an elegant, well-researched synthesis of both pantheons, Nordic and Aldmeri". Where did she get the Aldmeri pantheon, from Summerset? I doubt it. More likely the pro-Alessian Ayleids gave her the knowledge of their gods.

I agree that Ayleids are the closest elves to Summerset High Elves but there is something else, not only the culture. Ayleids are somehow the most magical race of elves on Tamriel (varla stones, welkynd stones, ayleid wells to name a few achievements that were not even repeated by other (sub)races).

psychotrip

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

storm105

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

Bruccius

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

''It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
~Before the Ages of Man

storm105

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

''It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
~Before the Ages of Man

And the pocket guide and ever other source list them as a separate race of Mer. It's not some new things eso came up with. They were always a separate race

psychotrip

storm105 wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

''It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
~Before the Ages of Man

And the pocket guide and ever other source list them as a separate race of Mer. It's not some new things eso came up with. They were always a separate race

They're literally called Heartland High Elves in Oblivion, and described as being only slightly darker than Altmer. In the book "Amulet of Kings" they're described as high elves as well. They don't have an official "mer" name because they're an offshoot of Altmer. The word Ayleid is a cultural term like Direnni, another Altmer culture.

Umbacano, an Altmer from both Morrowinsnand Oblivion, is an Ayleid revivalist. It'd be weird if he wanted a race to take over cyrodiil that wash't related to him at all. Even weirder for him to think he could lead them if he wasn't one of them.

The evidence adds up. You can find ways to conveniently explain all of this way, or we can just agree that the lore has shifted overtime.

storm105

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

''It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
~Before the Ages of Man

And the pocket guide and ever other source list them as a separate race of Mer. It's not some new things eso came up with. They were always a separate race

They're literally called Heartland High Elves in Oblivion, and described as being only slightly darker than Altmer. In the book "Amulet of Kings" they're described as high elves as well. They don't have an official "mer" name because they're an offshoot of Altmer. The word Ayleid is a cultural term like Direnni, another Altmer culture.

Umbacano, an Altmer from both Morrowinsnand Oblivion, is an Ayleid revivalist. It'd be weird if he wanted a race to take over cyrodiil that wash't related to him at all. Even weirder for him to think he could lead them if he wasn't one of them.

The evidence adds up. You can find ways to conveniently explain all of this way, or we can just agree that the lore has shifted overtime.

They are called heartland elves not high elves and the exact same thing was said about the chimer. The only evidence is that they were decedants of the aldmer not that they were literally high elves. This is explained pretty clearly in the lore but people still misinteperate it somehow. The altmer aren't aldmer they are just the closest race in terms of appearance because of eugenics it's not a shift from anything it's people misinteperating older information

psychotrip

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

''It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
~Before the Ages of Man

And the pocket guide and ever other source list them as a separate race of Mer. It's not some new things eso came up with. They were always a separate race

They're literally called Heartland High Elves in Oblivion, and described as being only slightly darker than Altmer. In the book "Amulet of Kings" they're described as high elves as well. They don't have an official "mer" name because they're an offshoot of Altmer. The word Ayleid is a cultural term like Direnni, another Altmer culture.

Umbacano, an Altmer from both Morrowinsnand Oblivion, is an Ayleid revivalist. It'd be weird if he wanted a race to take over cyrodiil that wash't related to him at all. Even weirder for him to think he could lead them if he wasn't one of them.

The evidence adds up. You can find ways to conveniently explain all of this way, or we can just agree that the lore has shifted overtime.

They are called heartland elves not high elves and the exact same thing was said about the chimer. The only evidence is that they were decedants of the aldmer not that they were literally high elves. This is explained pretty clearly in the lore but people still misinteperate it somehow. The altmer aren't aldmer they are just the closest race in terms of appearance because of eugenics it's not a shift from anything it's people misinteperating older information

...You didn't even read the references I cited, did you? It says "heartland high elves" not "heartland elves". Why is it so hard to accept that the lore has changed? I never said anything about aldmer either.

Bruccius

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

''It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
~Before the Ages of Man

And the pocket guide and ever other source list them as a separate race of Mer. It's not some new things eso came up with. They were always a separate race

They're literally called Heartland High Elves in Oblivion, and described as being only slightly darker than Altmer. In the book "Amulet of Kings" they're described as high elves as well. They don't have an official "mer" name because they're an offshoot of Altmer. The word Ayleid is a cultural term like Direnni, another Altmer culture.

Umbacano, an Altmer from both Morrowinsnand Oblivion, is an Ayleid revivalist. It'd be weird if he wanted a race to take over cyrodiil that wash't related to him at all. Even weirder for him to think he could lead them if he wasn't one of them.

The evidence adds up. You can find ways to conveniently explain all of this way, or we can just agree that the lore has shifted overtime.

They are called heartland elves not high elves and the exact same thing was said about the chimer. The only evidence is that they were decedants of the aldmer not that they were literally high elves. This is explained pretty clearly in the lore but people still misinteperate it somehow. The altmer aren't aldmer they are just the closest race in terms of appearance because of eugenics it's not a shift from anything it's people misinteperating older information

They are called ''Heartland High Elves'', and this, combined with the fact that their architecture is similar to that of the Altmer, as well as the fact that they originally paid tribute to Alinor, does imply that they aren't all that distinct. Even the bird motifs - which are prominent in Altmer culture - return in the culture of the Ayleids.

storm105

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

''It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
~Before the Ages of Man

And the pocket guide and ever other source list them as a separate race of Mer. It's not some new things eso came up with. They were always a separate race

They're literally called Heartland High Elves in Oblivion, and described as being only slightly darker than Altmer. In the book "Amulet of Kings" they're described as high elves as well. They don't have an official "mer" name because they're an offshoot of Altmer. The word Ayleid is a cultural term like Direnni, another Altmer culture.

Umbacano, an Altmer from both Morrowinsnand Oblivion, is an Ayleid revivalist. It'd be weird if he wanted a race to take over cyrodiil that wash't related to him at all. Even weirder for him to think he could lead them if he wasn't one of them.

The evidence adds up. You can find ways to conveniently explain all of this way, or we can just agree that the lore has shifted overtime.

They are called heartland elves not high elves and the exact same thing was said about the chimer. The only evidence is that they were decedants of the aldmer not that they were literally high elves. This is explained pretty clearly in the lore but people still misinteperate it somehow. The altmer aren't aldmer they are just the closest race in terms of appearance because of eugenics it's not a shift from anything it's people misinteperating older information

...You didn't even read the references I cited, did you? It says "heartland high elves" not "heartland elves". Why is it so hard to accept that the lore has changed? I never said anything about aldmer either.

Yes meanwhile the poker guide for Oblivion and a number of other lore books pree eso decsribes them as a second race a mer meanwhile you could only find a single source comparing them to high elves at all.

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

''It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
~Before the Ages of Man

And the pocket guide and ever other source list them as a separate race of Mer. It's not some new things eso came up with. They were always a separate race

They're literally called Heartland High Elves in Oblivion, and described as being only slightly darker than Altmer. In the book "Amulet of Kings" they're described as high elves as well. They don't have an official "mer" name because they're an offshoot of Altmer. The word Ayleid is a cultural term like Direnni, another Altmer culture.

Umbacano, an Altmer from both Morrowinsnand Oblivion, is an Ayleid revivalist. It'd be weird if he wanted a race to take over cyrodiil that wash't related to him at all. Even weirder for him to think he could lead them if he wasn't one of them.

The evidence adds up. You can find ways to conveniently explain all of this way, or we can just agree that the lore has shifted overtime.

They are called heartland elves not high elves and the exact same thing was said about the chimer. The only evidence is that they were decedants of the aldmer not that they were literally high elves. This is explained pretty clearly in the lore but people still misinteperate it somehow. The altmer aren't aldmer they are just the closest race in terms of appearance because of eugenics it's not a shift from anything it's people misinteperating older information

They are called ''Heartland High Elves'', and this, combined with the fact that their architecture is similar to that of the Altmer, as well as the fact that they originally paid tribute to Alinor, does imply that they aren't all that distinct. Even the bird motifs - which are prominent in Altmer culture - return in the culture of the Ayleids.

Yes because they are defendants from aldmer like the pocket guide clearly says it does not mean they are literally altmer just that their actectural style derived from the same source. The only reason sure buildings look different is because they wanted to intentonally separate themselves from aldmer

psychotrip

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

''It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
~Before the Ages of Man

And the pocket guide and ever other source list them as a separate race of Mer. It's not some new things eso came up with. They were always a separate race

They're literally called Heartland High Elves in Oblivion, and described as being only slightly darker than Altmer. In the book "Amulet of Kings" they're described as high elves as well. They don't have an official "mer" name because they're an offshoot of Altmer. The word Ayleid is a cultural term like Direnni, another Altmer culture.

Umbacano, an Altmer from both Morrowinsnand Oblivion, is an Ayleid revivalist. It'd be weird if he wanted a race to take over cyrodiil that wash't related to him at all. Even weirder for him to think he could lead them if he wasn't one of them.

The evidence adds up. You can find ways to conveniently explain all of this way, or we can just agree that the lore has shifted overtime.

They are called heartland elves not high elves and the exact same thing was said about the chimer. The only evidence is that they were decedants of the aldmer not that they were literally high elves. This is explained pretty clearly in the lore but people still misinteperate it somehow. The altmer aren't aldmer they are just the closest race in terms of appearance because of eugenics it's not a shift from anything it's people misinteperating older information

...You didn't even read the references I cited, did you? It says "heartland high elves" not "heartland elves". Why is it so hard to accept that the lore has changed? I never said anything about aldmer either.

Yes meanwhile the poker guide for Oblivion and a number of other lore books pree eso decsribes them as a second race a mer meanwhile you could only find a single source comparing them to high elves at all.

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

''It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
~Before the Ages of Man

And the pocket guide and ever other source list them as a separate race of Mer. It's not some new things eso came up with. They were always a separate race

They're literally called Heartland High Elves in Oblivion, and described as being only slightly darker than Altmer. In the book "Amulet of Kings" they're described as high elves as well. They don't have an official "mer" name because they're an offshoot of Altmer. The word Ayleid is a cultural term like Direnni, another Altmer culture.

Umbacano, an Altmer from both Morrowinsnand Oblivion, is an Ayleid revivalist. It'd be weird if he wanted a race to take over cyrodiil that wash't related to him at all. Even weirder for him to think he could lead them if he wasn't one of them.

The evidence adds up. You can find ways to conveniently explain all of this way, or we can just agree that the lore has shifted overtime.

They are called heartland elves not high elves and the exact same thing was said about the chimer. The only evidence is that they were decedants of the aldmer not that they were literally high elves. This is explained pretty clearly in the lore but people still misinteperate it somehow. The altmer aren't aldmer they are just the closest race in terms of appearance because of eugenics it's not a shift from anything it's people misinteperating older information

They are called ''Heartland High Elves'', and this, combined with the fact that their architecture is similar to that of the Altmer, as well as the fact that they originally paid tribute to Alinor, does imply that they aren't all that distinct. Even the bird motifs - which are prominent in Altmer culture - return in the culture of the Ayleids.

Yes because they are defendants from aldmer like the pocket guide clearly says it does not mean they are literally altmer just that their actectural style derived from the same source. The only reason sure buildings look different is because they wanted to intentonally separate themselves from aldmer

Can you show me where the pocket guide says they are NOT high elves? Because I've given you evidence that they are. So far it seens like you can only provide evidence that they're descended from the Aldmer...as are pretty much all elves.

I don't understand why we're still arguing about this. You can't even pull an "unreliable narrator" excuse here. They're called High Elves in a loading screen in Oblivion. That's not some biased or ignorant book. That's Bethesda speaking directly to you.

So we have:

-an in-game book
-Bethesda themselves
-similar aesthetic, architecture, and motifs
-similar appearance
-an almost identical language.
-swore fealty to Alinor
-Ayleid revivalists being Altmer
-An Altmer Ayleid revivalist thinking he can rule a new Ayleid empire

The evidence, both hard and implied, is right in front of you. Ayleids, like the Direnni, were originally intended to be another culture of High Elves. Why dont you want to accept this?

storm105

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

''It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
~Before the Ages of Man

And the pocket guide and ever other source list them as a separate race of Mer. It's not some new things eso came up with. They were always a separate race

They're literally called Heartland High Elves in Oblivion, and described as being only slightly darker than Altmer. In the book "Amulet of Kings" they're described as high elves as well. They don't have an official "mer" name because they're an offshoot of Altmer. The word Ayleid is a cultural term like Direnni, another Altmer culture.

Umbacano, an Altmer from both Morrowinsnand Oblivion, is an Ayleid revivalist. It'd be weird if he wanted a race to take over cyrodiil that wash't related to him at all. Even weirder for him to think he could lead them if he wasn't one of them.

The evidence adds up. You can find ways to conveniently explain all of this way, or we can just agree that the lore has shifted overtime.

They are called heartland elves not high elves and the exact same thing was said about the chimer. The only evidence is that they were decedants of the aldmer not that they were literally high elves. This is explained pretty clearly in the lore but people still misinteperate it somehow. The altmer aren't aldmer they are just the closest race in terms of appearance because of eugenics it's not a shift from anything it's people misinteperating older information

...You didn't even read the references I cited, did you? It says "heartland high elves" not "heartland elves". Why is it so hard to accept that the lore has changed? I never said anything about aldmer either.

Yes meanwhile the poker guide for Oblivion and a number of other lore books pree eso decsribes them as a second race a mer meanwhile you could only find a single source comparing them to high elves at all.

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

''It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
~Before the Ages of Man

And the pocket guide and ever other source list them as a separate race of Mer. It's not some new things eso came up with. They were always a separate race

They're literally called Heartland High Elves in Oblivion, and described as being only slightly darker than Altmer. In the book "Amulet of Kings" they're described as high elves as well. They don't have an official "mer" name because they're an offshoot of Altmer. The word Ayleid is a cultural term like Direnni, another Altmer culture.

Umbacano, an Altmer from both Morrowinsnand Oblivion, is an Ayleid revivalist. It'd be weird if he wanted a race to take over cyrodiil that wash't related to him at all. Even weirder for him to think he could lead them if he wasn't one of them.

The evidence adds up. You can find ways to conveniently explain all of this way, or we can just agree that the lore has shifted overtime.

They are called heartland elves not high elves and the exact same thing was said about the chimer. The only evidence is that they were decedants of the aldmer not that they were literally high elves. This is explained pretty clearly in the lore but people still misinteperate it somehow. The altmer aren't aldmer they are just the closest race in terms of appearance because of eugenics it's not a shift from anything it's people misinteperating older information

They are called ''Heartland High Elves'', and this, combined with the fact that their architecture is similar to that of the Altmer, as well as the fact that they originally paid tribute to Alinor, does imply that they aren't all that distinct. Even the bird motifs - which are prominent in Altmer culture - return in the culture of the Ayleids.

Yes because they are defendants from aldmer like the pocket guide clearly says it does not mean they are literally altmer just that their actectural style derived from the same source. The only reason sure buildings look different is because they wanted to intentonally separate themselves from aldmer

Can you show me where the pocket guide says they are NOT high elves? Because I've given you evidence that they are. So far it seens like you can only provide evidence that they're descended from the Aldmer...as are pretty much all elves.

I don't understand why we're still arguing about this. You can't even pull an "unreliable narrator" excuse here. They're called High Elves in a loading screen in Oblivion. That's not some biased or ignorant book. That's Bethesda speaking directly to you.

So we have:

-an in-game book
-Bethesda themselves
-similar aesthetic, architecture, and motifs
-similar appearance
-an almost identical language.
-swore fealty to Alinor
-Ayleid revivalists being Altmer
-An Altmer Ayleid revivalist thinking he can rule a new Ayleid empire

The evidence, both hard and implied, is right in front of you. Ayleids, like the Direnni, were originally intended to be another culture of High Elves. Why dont you want to accept this?

Straight from the pocket guide.

" Ayleids were ancient Aldmer, cousins of all the elven races that exist to this day. Over time, they became a distinct people, crafting a civilization whose ruins still puzzle and fascinate modern archeologists and adventurers. The ancient Nedic people, spreading south from Skyrim, became the slave labor for their ambitions, centered around the White Gold Tower."

The ages of man is literally the only lore book I can find that refers to them as high elves. Not saying it's inaccurate but it contradicts most other sources even ones from oblivion. I'm not sure why anyone here is even attempting to argue about it since only a single book makes that claim. As for why I don't want to accept it it's well because you are wrong and every other source calls them a separate race. Simple as that so you can cling to the single lore book that makes a reference to the ayleids and altmer or you can listen to every other lore book and Bethesda themselves says they were just couins.


And the actitecture is because they adlre descendants of aldmer. All mer have that origin except bosmer. Falmer ruins look similar to ayleid ruins as well. I don't get why that's so hard to understand. Frankly nothing but a single book supports anything you've said this argument. I find it baffing anyone even attempted to argue otherwise.

psychotrip

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

''It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
~Before the Ages of Man

And the pocket guide and ever other source list them as a separate race of Mer. It's not some new things eso came up with. They were always a separate race

They're literally called Heartland High Elves in Oblivion, and described as being only slightly darker than Altmer. In the book "Amulet of Kings" they're described as high elves as well. They don't have an official "mer" name because they're an offshoot of Altmer. The word Ayleid is a cultural term like Direnni, another Altmer culture.

Umbacano, an Altmer from both Morrowinsnand Oblivion, is an Ayleid revivalist. It'd be weird if he wanted a race to take over cyrodiil that wash't related to him at all. Even weirder for him to think he could lead them if he wasn't one of them.

The evidence adds up. You can find ways to conveniently explain all of this way, or we can just agree that the lore has shifted overtime.

They are called heartland elves not high elves and the exact same thing was said about the chimer. The only evidence is that they were decedants of the aldmer not that they were literally high elves. This is explained pretty clearly in the lore but people still misinteperate it somehow. The altmer aren't aldmer they are just the closest race in terms of appearance because of eugenics it's not a shift from anything it's people misinteperating older information

...You didn't even read the references I cited, did you? It says "heartland high elves" not "heartland elves". Why is it so hard to accept that the lore has changed? I never said anything about aldmer either.

Yes meanwhile the poker guide for Oblivion and a number of other lore books pree eso decsribes them as a second race a mer meanwhile you could only find a single source comparing them to high elves at all.

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

''It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
~Before the Ages of Man

And the pocket guide and ever other source list them as a separate race of Mer. It's not some new things eso came up with. They were always a separate race

They're literally called Heartland High Elves in Oblivion, and described as being only slightly darker than Altmer. In the book "Amulet of Kings" they're described as high elves as well. They don't have an official "mer" name because they're an offshoot of Altmer. The word Ayleid is a cultural term like Direnni, another Altmer culture.

Umbacano, an Altmer from both Morrowinsnand Oblivion, is an Ayleid revivalist. It'd be weird if he wanted a race to take over cyrodiil that wash't related to him at all. Even weirder for him to think he could lead them if he wasn't one of them.

The evidence adds up. You can find ways to conveniently explain all of this way, or we can just agree that the lore has shifted overtime.

They are called heartland elves not high elves and the exact same thing was said about the chimer. The only evidence is that they were decedants of the aldmer not that they were literally high elves. This is explained pretty clearly in the lore but people still misinteperate it somehow. The altmer aren't aldmer they are just the closest race in terms of appearance because of eugenics it's not a shift from anything it's people misinteperating older information

They are called ''Heartland High Elves'', and this, combined with the fact that their architecture is similar to that of the Altmer, as well as the fact that they originally paid tribute to Alinor, does imply that they aren't all that distinct. Even the bird motifs - which are prominent in Altmer culture - return in the culture of the Ayleids.

Yes because they are defendants from aldmer like the pocket guide clearly says it does not mean they are literally altmer just that their actectural style derived from the same source. The only reason sure buildings look different is because they wanted to intentonally separate themselves from aldmer

Can you show me where the pocket guide says they are NOT high elves? Because I've given you evidence that they are. So far it seens like you can only provide evidence that they're descended from the Aldmer...as are pretty much all elves.

I don't understand why we're still arguing about this. You can't even pull an "unreliable narrator" excuse here. They're called High Elves in a loading screen in Oblivion. That's not some biased or ignorant book. That's Bethesda speaking directly to you.

So we have:

-an in-game book
-Bethesda themselves
-similar aesthetic, architecture, and motifs
-similar appearance
-an almost identical language.
-swore fealty to Alinor
-Ayleid revivalists being Altmer
-An Altmer Ayleid revivalist thinking he can rule a new Ayleid empire

The evidence, both hard and implied, is right in front of you. Ayleids, like the Direnni, were originally intended to be another culture of High Elves. Why dont you want to accept this?

Straight from the pocket guide.

" Ayleids were ancient Aldmer, cousins of all the elven races that exist to this day. Over time, they became a distinct people, crafting a civilization whose ruins still puzzle and fascinate modern archeologists and adventurers. The ancient Nedic people, spreading south from Skyrim, became the slave labor for their ambitions, centered around the White Gold Tower."

The ages of man is literally the only lore book I can find that refers to them as high elves. Not saying it's inaccurate but it contradicts most other sources even ones from oblivion. I'm not sure why anyone here is even attempting to argue about it since only a single book makes that claim. As for why I don't want to accept it it's well because you are wrong and every other source calls them a separate race. Simple as that so you can cling to the single lore book that makes a reference to the ayleids and altmer or you can listen to every other lore book and Bethesda themselves says they were just couins.


And the actitecture is because they adlre descendants of aldmer. All mer have that origin except bosmer. Falmer ruins look similar to ayleid ruins as well. I don't get why that's so hard to understand. Frankly nothing but a single book supports anything you've said this argument. I find it baffing anyone even attempted to argue otherwise.

"Aldmer" in the old lore referred to both the literal elven ancestors, and elvenkind as a whole. The Redguard manual refers to Dram as an "Aldmeri" for example.

But it looks like you have one source from a book written in-universe thats infamous for being biased and misinformed. People find contradictions in the pocket guides all the time. Look at Summerset for example.

Also, you're ignoring all the other examples I listed above. Please address those.

storm105

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

''It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
~Before the Ages of Man

And the pocket guide and ever other source list them as a separate race of Mer. It's not some new things eso came up with. They were always a separate race

They're literally called Heartland High Elves in Oblivion, and described as being only slightly darker than Altmer. In the book "Amulet of Kings" they're described as high elves as well. They don't have an official "mer" name because they're an offshoot of Altmer. The word Ayleid is a cultural term like Direnni, another Altmer culture.

Umbacano, an Altmer from both Morrowinsnand Oblivion, is an Ayleid revivalist. It'd be weird if he wanted a race to take over cyrodiil that wash't related to him at all. Even weirder for him to think he could lead them if he wasn't one of them.

The evidence adds up. You can find ways to conveniently explain all of this way, or we can just agree that the lore has shifted overtime.

They are called heartland elves not high elves and the exact same thing was said about the chimer. The only evidence is that they were decedants of the aldmer not that they were literally high elves. This is explained pretty clearly in the lore but people still misinteperate it somehow. The altmer aren't aldmer they are just the closest race in terms of appearance because of eugenics it's not a shift from anything it's people misinteperating older information

...You didn't even read the references I cited, did you? It says "heartland high elves" not "heartland elves". Why is it so hard to accept that the lore has changed? I never said anything about aldmer either.

Yes meanwhile the poker guide for Oblivion and a number of other lore books pree eso decsribes them as a second race a mer meanwhile you could only find a single source comparing them to high elves at all.

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Originally, ayleids were just meant to be tanned Altmer that lived in and around Cyrodiil and often worshipped daedra. As I recall they symbolically (though not in practice) pledged fealty to Alinor. Dont quote me on that last part though.

But later games seem really intent on separating their accomplishments and physiology from that of the Altmer. Probably so they could portray them as this "ancient advanced civilization" without making the Altmer seem too advanced themselves. The devs confirmed that they were trying to portray Altmer as more "normal" anyway.

I can't find any source that links them to Altmer or summerset. The earliest mention of the aylieds I can find is in "2920 last year of the first era" from Morrowind. However, it does not go into detail oh what they were like and describes them more like faires than elves. Material from Oblivion varies and either claims they are decendants of aldmer who had an Exodus and moved to cyrodil, or that they are literally Aldmer. But that's as far as their connection to summerset and the aldmer goes. They were never considered to be Altmer.

''It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
~Before the Ages of Man

And the pocket guide and ever other source list them as a separate race of Mer. It's not some new things eso came up with. They were always a separate race

They're literally called Heartland High Elves in Oblivion, and described as being only slightly darker than Altmer. In the book "Amulet of Kings" they're described as high elves as well. They don't have an official "mer" name because they're an offshoot of Altmer. The word Ayleid is a cultural term like Direnni, another Altmer culture.

Umbacano, an Altmer from both Morrowinsnand Oblivion, is an Ayleid revivalist. It'd be weird if he wanted a race to take over cyrodiil that wash't related to him at all. Even weirder for him to think he could lead them if he wasn't one of them.

The evidence adds up. You can find ways to conveniently explain all of this way, or we can just agree that the lore has shifted overtime.

They are called heartland elves not high elves and the exact same thing was said about the chimer. The only evidence is that they were decedants of the aldmer not that they were literally high elves. This is explained pretty clearly in the lore but people still misinteperate it somehow. The altmer aren't aldmer they are just the closest race in terms of appearance because of eugenics it's not a shift from anything it's people misinteperating older information

They are called ''Heartland High Elves'', and this, combined with the fact that their architecture is similar to that of the Altmer, as well as the fact that they originally paid tribute to Alinor, does imply that they aren't all that distinct. Even the bird motifs - which are prominent in Altmer culture - return in the culture of the Ayleids.

Yes because they are defendants from aldmer like the pocket guide clearly says it does not mean they are literally altmer just that their actectural style derived from the same source. The only reason sure buildings look different is because they wanted to intentonally separate themselves from aldmer

Can you show me where the pocket guide says they are NOT high elves? Because I've given you evidence that they are. So far it seens like you can only provide evidence that they're descended from the Aldmer...as are pretty much all elves.

I don't understand why we're still arguing about this. You can't even pull an "unreliable narrator" excuse here. They're called High Elves in a loading screen in Oblivion. That's not some biased or ignorant book. That's Bethesda speaking directly to you.

So we have:

-an in-game book
-Bethesda themselves
-similar aesthetic, architecture, and motifs
-similar appearance
-an almost identical language.
-swore fealty to Alinor
-Ayleid revivalists being Altmer
-An Altmer Ayleid revivalist thinking he can rule a new Ayleid empire

The evidence, both hard and implied, is right in front of you. Ayleids, like the Direnni, were originally intended to be another culture of High Elves. Why dont you want to accept this?

Straight from the pocket guide.

" Ayleids were ancient Aldmer, cousins of all the elven races that exist to this day. Over time, they became a distinct people, crafting a civilization whose ruins still puzzle and fascinate modern archeologists and adventurers. The ancient Nedic people, spreading south from Skyrim, became the slave labor for their ambitions, centered around the White Gold Tower."

The ages of man is literally the only lore book I can find that refers to them as high elves. Not saying it's inaccurate but it contradicts most other sources even ones from oblivion. I'm not sure why anyone here is even attempting to argue about it since only a single book makes that claim. As for why I don't want to accept it it's well because you are wrong and every other source calls them a separate race. Simple as that so you can cling to the single lore book that makes a reference to the ayleids and altmer or you can listen to every other lore book and Bethesda themselves says they were just couins.


And the actitecture is because they adlre descendants of aldmer. All mer have that origin except bosmer. Falmer ruins look similar to ayleid ruins as well. I don't get why that's so hard to understand. Frankly nothing but a single book supports anything you've said this argument. I find it baffing anyone even attempted to argue otherwise.

"Aldmer" in the old lore referred to both the literal elven ancestors, and elvenkind as a whole. The Redguard manual refers to Dram as an "Aldmeri" for example.

But it looks like you have one source from a book written in-universe thats infamous for being biased and misinformed. People find contradictions in the pocket guides all the time. Look at Summerset for example.

Also, you're ignoring all the other examples I listed above. Please address those.

Literally the only thing you listened is a single book. That's my point you listened a single lore book and zero other statements and then you tried to act like featured that pretty much all the elven races have in common is somehow proof and I have others. Also no Aldmeri is sometimes used to refer to even kind as a whole but the aldmer were the pregenitor race of all the elven races today similar to the Nedes. Altmer are considered to be the closest elven race around today to the aldmer because of selective breeding. It just seems like a bunk argument and I can't understand why this discussion is still going on

psychotrip

I think you missed one of my posts. Here's the abridged version:

-an in-game book
-Bethesda themselves in a loading screen
-similar aesthetic, architecture, and motifs
-similar appearance
-an almost identical language.
-swore fealty to Alinor
-Ayleid revivalists being Altmer
-An Altmer Ayleid revivalist thinking he can rule a new Ayleid empire

You addressed a few of these but ignored several of them. I bolded them for you.

There is evidence, both explicit and implied. Far more than what you have. You can poke holes in any one of these, but put them all together and they form a pattern you can't dispute.

I also dont understand how this argument is still going since it seems most people are disagreeing with you here.

storm105

psychotrip wrote: »

I think you missed one of my posts. Here's the abridged version:

-an in-game book
-Bethesda themselves in a loading screen
-similar aesthetic, architecture, and motifs
-similar appearance
-an almost identical language.
-swore fealty to Alinor
-Ayleid revivalists being Altmer
-An Altmer Ayleid revivalist thinking he can rule a new Ayleid empire

You addressed a few of these but ignored several of them. I bolded them for you.

There is evidence, both explicit and implied. Far more than what you have. You can poke holes in any one of these, but put them all together and they form a pattern you can't dispute.

I also dont understand how this argument is still going since it seems most people are disagreeing with you here.

I don't see how the ayleid revivalist bring an altmer means much it's like how imperials have a lot of Nordic propaganda. It seems more like they feel they are close enough to try and take credit. Just like the falmer historian in Morrowind. Also again other more books and loading screens still say they were just aldmer rather than altmer. As for language the language is simply said to be derived from the aldmer language and it was also said to be similar to "old cyrodilic" in one book. This really doesnt seen like they are anything more than cousins. Even the swearing to alinor thing can only be found in a single source.

Bruccius

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

I think you missed one of my posts. Here's the abridged version:

-an in-game book
-Bethesda themselves in a loading screen
-similar aesthetic, architecture, and motifs
-similar appearance
-an almost identical language.
-swore fealty to Alinor
-Ayleid revivalists being Altmer
-An Altmer Ayleid revivalist thinking he can rule a new Ayleid empire

You addressed a few of these but ignored several of them. I bolded them for you.

There is evidence, both explicit and implied. Far more than what you have. You can poke holes in any one of these, but put them all together and they form a pattern you can't dispute.

I also dont understand how this argument is still going since it seems most people are disagreeing with you here.

I don't see how the ayleid revivalist bring an altmer means much it's like how imperials have a lot of Nordic propaganda. It seems more like they feel they are close enough to try and take credit. Just like the falmer historian in Morrowind. Also again other more books and loading screens still say they were just aldmer rather than altmer. As for language the language is simply said to be derived from the aldmer language and it was also said to be similar to "old cyrodilic" in one book. This really doesnt seen like they are anything more than cousins. Even the swearing to alinor thing can only be found in a single source.

Do you actually have evidence for your claims?

storm105

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

I think you missed one of my posts. Here's the abridged version:

-an in-game book
-Bethesda themselves in a loading screen
-similar aesthetic, architecture, and motifs
-similar appearance
-an almost identical language.
-swore fealty to Alinor
-Ayleid revivalists being Altmer
-An Altmer Ayleid revivalist thinking he can rule a new Ayleid empire

You addressed a few of these but ignored several of them. I bolded them for you.

There is evidence, both explicit and implied. Far more than what you have. You can poke holes in any one of these, but put them all together and they form a pattern you can't dispute.

I also dont understand how this argument is still going since it seems most people are disagreeing with you here.

I don't see how the ayleid revivalist bring an altmer means much it's like how imperials have a lot of Nordic propaganda. It seems more like they feel they are close enough to try and take credit. Just like the falmer historian in Morrowind. Also again other more books and loading screens still say they were just aldmer rather than altmer. As for language the language is simply said to be derived from the aldmer language and it was also said to be similar to "old cyrodilic" in one book. This really doesnt seen like they are anything more than cousins. Even the swearing to alinor thing can only be found in a single source.

Do you actually have evidence for your claims?

Yeah and I've repeated it several times. Multiple more books simply just listghrm as a nother race of mer and the eso loading screen. It seems to me like you people are just stuck trying to defend your own head Canon even if it's been proven wrong at this point.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleidoon

All elven languages are related since they are derived from aldmeris



https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Wild_Elves

psychotrip

storm105 wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

storm105 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

I think you missed one of my posts. Here's the abridged version:

-an in-game book
-Bethesda themselves in a loading screen
-similar aesthetic, architecture, and motifs
-similar appearance
-an almost identical language.
-swore fealty to Alinor
-Ayleid revivalists being Altmer
-An Altmer Ayleid revivalist thinking he can rule a new Ayleid empire

You addressed a few of these but ignored several of them. I bolded them for you.

There is evidence, both explicit and implied. Far more than what you have. You can poke holes in any one of these, but put them all together and they form a pattern you can't dispute.

I also dont understand how this argument is still going since it seems most people are disagreeing with you here.

I don't see how the ayleid revivalist bring an altmer means much it's like how imperials have a lot of Nordic propaganda. It seems more like they feel they are close enough to try and take credit. Just like the falmer historian in Morrowind. Also again other more books and loading screens still say they were just aldmer rather than altmer. As for language the language is simply said to be derived from the aldmer language and it was also said to be similar to "old cyrodilic" in one book. This really doesnt seen like they are anything more than cousins. Even the swearing to alinor thing can only be found in a single source.

Do you actually have evidence for your claims?

Yeah and I've repeated it several times. Multiple more books simply just listghrm as a nother race of mer and the eso loading screen. It seems to me like you people are just stuck trying to defend your own head Canon even if it's been proven wrong at this point.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleidoon

All elven languages are related since they are derived from aldmeris



https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Wild_Elves

First link doesnt really prove anything. No one is denying that all elven languages are related. Ayleid and Altmeri appear nearly identical, far moreso than any other elven language. The same goes for their architecture. No two elven races are closer. Many of their ruins are literally identical.

The wild elves is really the only piece of evidence you have, and the book itself was written before elven lore really solidified. Fun fact: the original version of that book calls bosmer "boiche", high elves "salache" and dark elves "moriche". Because the book was written in Daggerfall, before the lore was really finished.

That honestly might explain the disconnect here. Maybe ORIGINALLY they were a separate race, then from Morrowind to Skyrim they were Altmer, and then when ESO came out they went back to being separate?

We have several explicit pieces of evidence that says they are high elves, including Bethesda themselves saying that in a loading screen. In addition we have several more pieces of implied evidence, which while admittedly weaker add up and reinforce the explicit references. It's all a pattern, and its all implying the same thing over and over again.

Again, just look at the volume of evidence we listed compared to yours.

You really havent addressed the fact that Bethesda themselves have said this in an Oblivion loading screen. How can you deny that? Bethesda said they were high elves.

And it honestly feels like a cop out to ignore the Ayleid revivalist stuff. Sure its POSSIBLE that these Altmer are not related at all to Ayleids, but that makes their role in the lore much weaker. It makes much more narrative sense for them to feel personally connected to the Ayleids and want to revive their culture. The alternative would be like if a bunch of Germans wanted to revive ancient Egypt. Sure it's POSSIBLE for them to want to do that, but kind of strange and not very compelling from a storytelling perspective.

In fact, here's what Umbacano himself says:

Here it is... the throne of the last king of the Ayleids. And so it falls to me to begin the restoration of our ancient glory... Av Sunna Tam Riel arctavoy an Arpen Aran malaburo!" If you try to stop him by talking to him, he will say, "You are about to witness the glorious rebirth of Ayleid civilization. Stand aside!" If you gave him the Crown of Nenalata, he will be transformed into the King of Nenalata and will turn hostile, forcing you to fight him. He will also summon a large number of undead, saying, "Arise, my people! The restoration of Tam Riel begins today!"

Umbacano calls the Ayleids his people. Plain as day.

This isnt about head canon. Everyone knows Ayleids arent Altmer ANYMORE. ESO retconned all that. We're just acknowledging what was explicitly told to us.

Edit: Oh and another piece of "soft" evidence: where did the ayleids go? They didn't all just get exterminated one day. Books claim there are small tribes hiding in Cyrodiil but clearly there's not many. Didn't most of them end up assimilating into the Direnni? The Direnni are high elves. The two groups merged pretty seamlessly, implying they're the same race. Zenimax also claimed the ruins we see in Auridon are Ayleid. They later retconned this but it implies that even THEY believed they were the same race with a different culture.