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Pay to Win
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Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »ITT: Punish those who have jobs/careers/disposable income and give freebies to those who don't want to put time and effort into unlocking things themselves.
YeahVaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
Except the only area where those who bought the skills have any advantage over those who don't is low level PVP, and then only below the level when a player could gain those leveled skills naturally.
Everywhere else, you aren't really competing with other players at low levels, so there's no advantage.
Outside of low level PVP, its pay for convenience. Pay to spend less time grinding.
So first off you're admitting it is pay to win, because it does give in game advantages, but only to low level pvp in your opnion.
Second, I'm pretty sure PVP players don't really need the DB/TG skill lines, those are basically just PVE buffs. Also Undaunted isn't for just for PVP, pretty sure you only get it through leveling PVE, same with the fighters guild and mages guild. Those skill lines also got huge dps buffs this patch (wonder why).
Sooooooo you might wanna rethink your argument there pal. It's pay to win and it's not meant to be for PVP players. It's for hardcore PVE players to not have to level up 4 guild lines in order to make a character viable for endgame trials. Can PVP benefit? Absoutely, but it's not cuz of PVP that this was introduced.
I dunno if you quite got the argument there.
1. It isnt pay to win in PVE. Like, at all. By the time you hit competitive PVE or end game content, any player who didn't buy the skill lines could have them leveled up. The only advantage PVE players get from buying them is spending less time grinding those skill lines, which is pure pay for convenience.
2. It is pay to win in PVP...for a relatively small time period below the level where a player who didn't buy them could level them. Even there, level 10 players could easily have Mages Guild and Psijic Order unlocked. Werewolf is easy to grind up for low level BGs. The two hard ones, in terms of levels, are Fighters Guild and Undaunted. Even there, they arent hard - just dolmen grind and doing the delve quests with a large group willing to share - but I'm not sure how much you'd level up from the exp.
So the advantage disappears the more you level up even in low level PVP, as players obtain those skill lines the usual way. Then by the time you get to actually competitive PVP at level 50, the advantage is completely gone, as everyone has had the chance to get those skills the normal way.
I'm not going to rethink that argument, BTW. The skill lines are pay to win in low level PVP, and I wish ZOS had required players to be level 50 in order to buy them. That would have given all players an equal timeframe to acquire those skills, whether or not they bought them.
1. If it is pay to win anywhere it is pay to win. I know you're trying really hard to say it isn't pay to win in pve but that's where the majority of your player base is and where most of the money will be coming from. Paying for less grinding time is still pay to win, the win is the convenience of not having to level. You "win" the guild tree. Pay to win doesn't mean you pay to win the game, it is again, paying for an advantage over other players. If you're paying for something that I can't afford and I have to grind it, it is pay to win.
2. It doesn't matter if the advantage goes away over time it is still pay to win by your own words. I'm not even going to address how dumb the rest of your statement is because you already admited IT IS PAY TO WIN.
3. PVE and PVP ARE ALWAYS COMPETITIVE. There is no competitive PVP at lvl 50, if you're in PVP it's competitive irregardless of level. Same with PVE. Do you really thing hardcore trial guilds aren't competing to hit first trial clears and first hard modes? When (not if, when) ZOS drops a new class what is it going to take to make it viable? You spend a few hours grinding Skyreach and buy all your skill lines and boom you're now a fully functional DPS while other people spend weeks grinding because they aren't able to just buy the skills.
4. You should rethink your argument as your argument is all i need to prove this *** is pay to win.
I...I don't disagree with you in low level PVP. As for the rest, you don't understand the difference between pay to win and pay for convenience.
1. Its not pay to win in PVE. Having a time advantage is not Pay to Win, its pay for convenience.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
Similarly, in PVE, skyshards and skill lines are pay for convenience.
By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better.
2. Again, it's pay to win. For a time. Then its not because everyone has had ample oppprtunity to get them. I already told you my solution: lock the purchase skill lines to level 50, when other players have had sufficient chance to obtain those skills if they want to grind the normal way.
3. It's still pay for convenience. You are paying to get something faster than players doing it the normal way. See exp scrolls, ESO+ sub experience, riding lessons, etc.
My qualms about PVP could be solved if ZOS locked purchased skill lines until they were leveled up normally or until level 50. Making it so every player had equal oppprtunity to unlock the skill lines in an appropriate timeframe would make them not pay to win.
1. It is pay to win in PVE. Paying for convenience is pay to win. It's a very simple concept.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
All your examples minus the crafting bag are pay to win. The only reason the crafting bag isn't is because it is part of the subscription that you get with the DLCs. If they sold the crafting bag separately for no sub it would be pay to win.
Horse riding is pay to win but probably the most minimal offender
Exp scrolls are pay to win in comparison to in game items. You're paying to not have to level provisioning to gain the best buff possible. Sorry you're wrong.
Research scrolls are pay to win. The ones you can buy in came are limited to 24 hour time reduction and you can only use 1 every 24 hours. Crown store research scrolls can take weeks at a time off and have no cool down time. This is an in game advantage in PVE and PVP for your armors and weapons both crafting and transmuting.
Sky shards are pay to win. It doesn't matter if you've earned it once, if your character can buy them all from the start after that is a GIGANTIC advantage over someone that has to go back and rerun every sky shard.
"By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better."
The win is the time saved do you really not understand that? Do you know how much time it takes to get every skyshard and every guild skill line? It's much more time than it takes to get to cp160 unless you had a guide for everything. Do you realize that if I ran all my guys, the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them and then you buy all yours that's a pay to win advantage. At this point I'm not sure if you work for ZOS or maybe english isn't your primary language but this is pretty easy to follow.
2. Again pay to win for a time is still pay to win. It doesn't matter if it's for a day, you're still paying for an advantage other players wouldn't have for that day. You can keep trying to twist it all you want but you're wrong. Imagine if I had the ability to pay for Volendrung once a day because I already have one of the achievements for it and I could just summon it in PVP once a day for 1 hour at a time. That's not pay to win right? It's to pay for the convenience of farming AP. For a time. Your logic is smart and solid.
3. This isn't even a point, you're just rehashing point 1. No, it is pay to win https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items.
Let me break this down. You're paying for downloadable content to gain and advantage over people playing, you know, the normal way before we could purchase them. This is pay to win by definition. You're just proving my points.
We have a irreconcilable difference of opinion.
You think that paying to get stuff faster but not better in Pay to Win. Paying for better stuff is also Pay to Win, of course.
I think that paying to get stuff faster is Pay for Convenience. Paying for better stuff is Pay to Win.
We aren't gonna agree, that much is clear.
So lets agree to disagree?
You have a great day!
No, we're not playing the opinion game. It is by definition pay to win and you are wrong.
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers
No. I don't think that. I think paying for non cosmetics is pay to win. You can pay for better or you can pay for faster but you're still paying for an advantage, which again is the definition of p2w.
You have a great day though.
No... You are wrong...lol...see how that works...obstinacy is a two way street...
Also good job using a definition from Wiki to bolster your OPINION...
"No... You are wrong...lol...see how that works...obstinacy is a two way street... "
Pretty sure I also had examples but it looks like reading isn't your strong suit though.
Oh wait sorry professor, what's your definition? Oh you don't have one gotcha gotcha.
It's an impartial statement about pay to win that is someone else's words not my own. Sorry I used wikipedia, here's a list of US court cases where they thought it was ok to use wiki. Forgot though, you're clearly a high IQ individual and the courts are below you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_as_a_court_source
Is that ok with you random internet tough guy? Thanks for taking your time away from curing cancer away to come to the ESO forums and hit us with that hot take. It's only opinion though, so I'll wait around for you to hit me with some links to disway my position on this, I'm sure you're loaded with high tier information.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage....
...that you can only get with cash.
i.e, when people who pay $ gain an advantage that people who don't pay $ can't get.
Like all those wonderful Eastern open-pvp games that sell things like better healing potions/BIS gear/faster mounts/etc in their cash shops. Oh, and item enchantment systems where you need to get everything to +14 in order to compete, but you need cash shop consumables to have more than a 1% chance of success at the enchanting. With your gear being destroyed if you fail. That's one's a big p2w.
And what's the real difference between enchanting to +14 faster and getting skills unlocked faster?
- Don't want to farm weapons and enchantments again and again? (Don't want to farm skill lines again and again?)
- If you don't pay for guaranteed chance to enchant a weapon, you still can enchant it but it will take more time. (If you don't want to pay for a skill line, you still can get it, but it will take more time.)
I mean, come on, wake up. Although it doesn't feel THAT much of a pay2win, however it utilizes exactly the same base mechanics of pay2win stuff.
Crafting doesnt really work well for that argument though, because there's nothing stopping you from buying an enchantment someone else made and applying it. It literally makes no difference to your gameplay abilities if you can or can't craft it.
The only exception is jewelry crafting research, because transmutation is the only way to acquire certain jewelry traits...but even that's really warped by the fact that jewelry crafting itself is locked behind a DLC purchase. Its about on the same level of P2W as Warden or Necromancer. Which is to say that it kinda is, but that ship sailed two years ago, so I'm not sure its worth fighting over.
Now, maxing a crafting skill will make a difference to your ability to do crafting writs and get higher chances for Master Writs at max tier quickly, but then we're gonna have to talk about buying Crown Store motifs vs buying them in game for gold, because motif knowledge has a big impact on Master Writ drop chance. So is that also P2W?
With crafting, there's no real gameplay advantage over other players,to getting it done quicker - with the exception, possibly, of jewelry crafting.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
LOL. P2W has long been defined being able to buy something with cash that makes you stronger than what you can obtain in game.
Granted, I understand the desire to change that definition to fit the story one is trying to weave and my comment you quoted very much sums that up.
I do notice how you do take what is really P2W and try to blur it into merely a convenience item. It is not the same.5 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
LOL. P2W has long been defined being able to buy something with cash that makes you stronger than what you can obtain in game.
Granted, I understand the desire to change that definition to fit the story one is trying to weave and my comment you quoted very much sums that up.
I do notice how you do take what is really P2W and try to blur it into merely a convenience item. It is not the same.
LOL ok let me see if it fits in your definition.
Buying skills with cash makes you stronger than what you can obtain in the game. Ok well seems to fit so it's pay to win by your definition.
"Granted, I understand the desire to change that definition to fit the story one is trying to weave and my comment you quoted very much sums that up. "
If you can show me where I did that it'd be great. Sorry I used a 3rd party definition from a website that aggregates sources and combines them into one solid, easy to use place with definitions. I forgot I should have just went to you as the primary source.
"I do notice how you do take what is really P2W and try to blur it into merely a convenience item. It is not the same."
LOL yup, don't link it or anything, just be as vague as possible. If you link it people might know you're full of it. What is really P2W by your definition? I can't wait to read it, hopefully I don't wake people up with my laughter, it's late here.
Edit: The wiki document has 46 different sources in it. 46 opinions on the definition vs yours. Just saying.Edited by Rave the Histborn on August 29, 2019 6:01AM0 -
Ermiq✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage....
...that you can only get with cash.
i.e, when people who pay $ gain an advantage that people who don't pay $ can't get.
Like all those wonderful Eastern open-pvp games that sell things like better healing potions/BIS gear/faster mounts/etc in their cash shops. Oh, and item enchantment systems where you need to get everything to +14 in order to compete, but you need cash shop consumables to have more than a 1% chance of success at the enchanting. With your gear being destroyed if you fail. That's one's a big p2w.
And what's the real difference between enchanting to +14 faster and getting skills unlocked faster?
- Don't want to farm weapons and enchantments again and again? (Don't want to farm skill lines again and again?)
- If you don't pay for guaranteed chance to enchant a weapon, you still can enchant it but it will take more time. (If you don't want to pay for a skill line, you still can get it, but it will take more time.)
I mean, come on, wake up. Although it doesn't feel THAT much of a pay2win, however it utilizes exactly the same base mechanics of pay2win stuff.
Crafting doesnt really work well for that argument though, because there's nothing stopping you from buying an enchantment someone else made and applying it. It literally makes no difference to your gameplay abilities if you can or can't craft it.
The only exception is jewelry crafting research, because transmutation is the only way to acquire certain jewelry traits...but even that's really warped by the fact that jewelry crafting itself is locked behind a DLC purchase. Its about on the same level of P2W as Warden or Necromancer. Which is to say that it kinda is, but that ship sailed two years ago, so I'm not sure its worth fighting over.
Now, maxing a crafting skill will make a difference to your ability to do crafting writs and get higher chances for Master Writs at max tier quickly, but then we're gonna have to talk about buying Crown Store motifs vs buying them in game for gold, because motif knowledge has a big impact on Master Writ drop chance. So is that also P2W?
With crafting, there's no real gameplay advantage over other players,to getting it done quicker - with the exception, possibly, of jewelry crafting.
It was about enchanting in pay2win Asian MMORPGs, you know, +1, +2, ... +14 with a chance to brake and lose a weapon if you didn't pay for a 100% successful enchanting chance. It's not about ESO crafting.One of the two of us definitely has gone mad. It only remains to define whether this one is the whole world or just me.
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
Sick&tired of being kicked off from your house when you complete a dungeon? ComingBackHome addon is what you need!
Me is russian little bad in english :b0 -
Reistr_the_Unbroken✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »ITT: Punish those who have jobs/careers/disposable income and give freebies to those who don't want to put time and effort into unlocking things themselves.
YeahVaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
Except the only area where those who bought the skills have any advantage over those who don't is low level PVP, and then only below the level when a player could gain those leveled skills naturally.
Everywhere else, you aren't really competing with other players at low levels, so there's no advantage.
Outside of low level PVP, its pay for convenience. Pay to spend less time grinding.
So first off you're admitting it is pay to win, because it does give in game advantages, but only to low level pvp in your opnion.
Second, I'm pretty sure PVP players don't really need the DB/TG skill lines, those are basically just PVE buffs. Also Undaunted isn't for just for PVP, pretty sure you only get it through leveling PVE, same with the fighters guild and mages guild. Those skill lines also got huge dps buffs this patch (wonder why).
Sooooooo you might wanna rethink your argument there pal. It's pay to win and it's not meant to be for PVP players. It's for hardcore PVE players to not have to level up 4 guild lines in order to make a character viable for endgame trials. Can PVP benefit? Absoutely, but it's not cuz of PVP that this was introduced.
I dunno if you quite got the argument there.
1. It isnt pay to win in PVE. Like, at all. By the time you hit competitive PVE or end game content, any player who didn't buy the skill lines could have them leveled up. The only advantage PVE players get from buying them is spending less time grinding those skill lines, which is pure pay for convenience.
2. It is pay to win in PVP...for a relatively small time period below the level where a player who didn't buy them could level them. Even there, level 10 players could easily have Mages Guild and Psijic Order unlocked. Werewolf is easy to grind up for low level BGs. The two hard ones, in terms of levels, are Fighters Guild and Undaunted. Even there, they arent hard - just dolmen grind and doing the delve quests with a large group willing to share - but I'm not sure how much you'd level up from the exp.
So the advantage disappears the more you level up even in low level PVP, as players obtain those skill lines the usual way. Then by the time you get to actually competitive PVP at level 50, the advantage is completely gone, as everyone has had the chance to get those skills the normal way.
I'm not going to rethink that argument, BTW. The skill lines are pay to win in low level PVP, and I wish ZOS had required players to be level 50 in order to buy them. That would have given all players an equal timeframe to acquire those skills, whether or not they bought them.
1. If it is pay to win anywhere it is pay to win. I know you're trying really hard to say it isn't pay to win in pve but that's where the majority of your player base is and where most of the money will be coming from. Paying for less grinding time is still pay to win, the win is the convenience of not having to level. You "win" the guild tree. Pay to win doesn't mean you pay to win the game, it is again, paying for an advantage over other players. If you're paying for something that I can't afford and I have to grind it, it is pay to win.
2. It doesn't matter if the advantage goes away over time it is still pay to win by your own words. I'm not even going to address how dumb the rest of your statement is because you already admited IT IS PAY TO WIN.
3. PVE and PVP ARE ALWAYS COMPETITIVE. There is no competitive PVP at lvl 50, if you're in PVP it's competitive irregardless of level. Same with PVE. Do you really thing hardcore trial guilds aren't competing to hit first trial clears and first hard modes? When (not if, when) ZOS drops a new class what is it going to take to make it viable? You spend a few hours grinding Skyreach and buy all your skill lines and boom you're now a fully functional DPS while other people spend weeks grinding because they aren't able to just buy the skills.
4. You should rethink your argument as your argument is all i need to prove this *** is pay to win.
I...I don't disagree with you in low level PVP. As for the rest, you don't understand the difference between pay to win and pay for convenience.
1. Its not pay to win in PVE. Having a time advantage is not Pay to Win, its pay for convenience.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
Similarly, in PVE, skyshards and skill lines are pay for convenience.
By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better.
2. Again, it's pay to win. For a time. Then its not because everyone has had ample oppprtunity to get them. I already told you my solution: lock the purchase skill lines to level 50, when other players have had sufficient chance to obtain those skills if they want to grind the normal way.
3. It's still pay for convenience. You are paying to get something faster than players doing it the normal way. See exp scrolls, ESO+ sub experience, riding lessons, etc.
My qualms about PVP could be solved if ZOS locked purchased skill lines until they were leveled up normally or until level 50. Making it so every player had equal oppprtunity to unlock the skill lines in an appropriate timeframe would make them not pay to win.
1. It is pay to win in PVE. Paying for convenience is pay to win. It's a very simple concept.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
All your examples minus the crafting bag are pay to win. The only reason the crafting bag isn't is because it is part of the subscription that you get with the DLCs. If they sold the crafting bag separately for no sub it would be pay to win.
Horse riding is pay to win but probably the most minimal offender
Exp scrolls are pay to win in comparison to in game items. You're paying to not have to level provisioning to gain the best buff possible. Sorry you're wrong.
Research scrolls are pay to win. The ones you can buy in came are limited to 24 hour time reduction and you can only use 1 every 24 hours. Crown store research scrolls can take weeks at a time off and have no cool down time. This is an in game advantage in PVE and PVP for your armors and weapons both crafting and transmuting.
Sky shards are pay to win. It doesn't matter if you've earned it once, if your character can buy them all from the start after that is a GIGANTIC advantage over someone that has to go back and rerun every sky shard.
"By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better."
The win is the time saved do you really not understand that? Do you know how much time it takes to get every skyshard and every guild skill line? It's much more time than it takes to get to cp160 unless you had a guide for everything. Do you realize that if I ran all my guys, the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them and then you buy all yours that's a pay to win advantage. At this point I'm not sure if you work for ZOS or maybe english isn't your primary language but this is pretty easy to follow.
2. Again pay to win for a time is still pay to win. It doesn't matter if it's for a day, you're still paying for an advantage other players wouldn't have for that day. You can keep trying to twist it all you want but you're wrong. Imagine if I had the ability to pay for Volendrung once a day because I already have one of the achievements for it and I could just summon it in PVP once a day for 1 hour at a time. That's not pay to win right? It's to pay for the convenience of farming AP. For a time. Your logic is smart and solid.
3. This isn't even a point, you're just rehashing point 1. No, it is pay to win https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items.
Let me break this down. You're paying for downloadable content to gain and advantage over people playing, you know, the normal way before we could purchase them. This is pay to win by definition. You're just proving my points.
We have a irreconcilable difference of opinion.
You think that paying to get stuff faster but not better in Pay to Win. Paying for better stuff is also Pay to Win, of course.
I think that paying to get stuff faster is Pay for Convenience. Paying for better stuff is Pay to Win.
We aren't gonna agree, that much is clear.
So lets agree to disagree?
You have a great day!
No, we're not playing the opinion game. It is by definition pay to win and you are wrong.
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers
No. I don't think that. I think paying for non cosmetics is pay to win. You can pay for better or you can pay for faster but you're still paying for an advantage, which again is the definition of p2w.
You have a great day though.
You can copy and paste that quote as many times as you want. It doesn't make you right. It's an unsourced statement made by a user on Wikipedia. I could log in and change it right now if I wanted to.
There is no "academic" definition of P2W.
I'm sure tobacco companies couldn't find "academic" studies that their cigarettes cause cancer.
I stg I lost braincells reading this and the copypaste “argument”0 -
Ilithyania✭✭✭✭✭unless its a new 10 k dmg sword, obtainable from CROWN store only... that i missed
NO
Not P2W yet XDPC1 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »
You can keep denying reality, it doesn't make you right.
It's the best consensus definition I could find. Sorry, I forgot this was college and I need to source everything with bibliography in order for person that keeps jumping back and forth between it's only pay to win a little (but only for like a day or an hour or ya know not long at all) and it's not pay to win. Tell ya what, maybe if the best your argument can boil down to is "I can edit that in my favor" you might just wanna bow out gracefully. I mean if you can do that why can't I edit it to say "ESO crown store is pay to win" and just end the conversation right there.
I'm sure tobacco companies couldn't find "academic" studies that their cigarettes cause cancer. It's the same thing, why would the ESRB and other gaming related organizations put out an academic definition of something that makes them look terrible? They fund all these companies, why would they pay for negative PR?
So you're saying if I changed the definition on Wikipedia, you would accept it as fact?Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 29, 2019 8:15AM3 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Edit: The wiki document has 46 different sources in it. 46 opinions on the definition vs yours. Just saying.
And yet not one of those references links to the statement you keep copy and pasting.
Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 29, 2019 8:17AM2 -
Mathius_Mordred✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've already worked hard for those skill lines. If I now want to roll an alt and avoid the huge grind they involve I can buy the skill lines again. How on Earth is this pay to win if I've already done the long grind for it? As others have mentioned the only slight advantage you will have is if you are in a low-level BG or Cyrodiil event, but you can't do that for long because those events will level your character up, thus the very act of fighting in a low-level arena moves you inexorably out of it.
This is P4C, not P2W, please try to understand what a P2W environment would be like. For example, you can buy a mount that runs twice as fast as anything in-game, or you can buy weapons with far superior stats than anything in-game, or purchasable God armour, or purchasable only skill lines which are vastly superior to those in-game, all these things would be P2W and would result in the game lasting a few months before enough people left for it to no longer be a viable business.
Why do people keep making these ridiculous assumptions again and again?Skyrim Red Shirts. Join us at https://skyrimredshirts.co.ukJoin Skyrim Red Shirts. Free trader. We welcome all, from new players to Vets. A mature drama-free social group enjoying PVE questing, PvP, Dungeons, trials and arenas. Web, FB Group & Discord. Guild Hall, trial dummy, crafting, transmutation, banker & merchant. You may invite your friends. No requirements0 -
YaYaPineapple✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »I can't afford it, so no one else should be allowed to buy it!
^^That is not a direct quote, but it sums up his argument.
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zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Skill lines are pretty much leveled the same way as then we had sub.I'll let you in on a little secret. These skill lines etc are just a ploy for ZOS to squeeze more money out of us than they'd get from adding class change tokens. Now you need to make a new character and buy everything for way over 10k crowns instead of one class change token worth 4000 or so crowns.
But yes, it's still not pay to win unless you are talking about lvl3 duelling tournaments, in which case it is I guess.
And yes they are designed to be grindy.
Help hardworking Khajiit grindEdited by zaria on August 29, 2019 8:47AMGrinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
YaYaPineapple✭✭✭✭If you consider saving real life money to be a "win"... then aren't you really "winning" if you don't pay money to unlock these skill lines on alts?2
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Hallothiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Be honest how many PVP players do you imagine are going to want to waste their time and money just to be good in low level BG, most PVP players just use it as a fast way to level without having to do PVE content, there goal is to get to 50 not hang around there forever, they want to get the current over powered class maxed out and use the character in Cyrodiil or max level BG.
^^^^^^
This.
Just how many players constantly re-roll characters so they can dominate under 50 pvp? (But Weird if they do actually but thats just my opinion)
So offering skill lines you have to have ALREADY completed on one character is not bloody pay to win.
Get a grip.Edited by Hallothiel on August 29, 2019 8:59AM3 -
Ermiq✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hallothiel wrote: »Be honest how many PVP players do you imagine are going to want to waste their time and money just to be good in low level BG, most PVP players just use it as a fast way to level without having to do PVE content, there goal is to get to 50 not hang around there forever, they want to get the current over powered class maxed out and use the character in Cyrodiil or max level BG.
Oh my... I've lost count on flaws in this statement.
1. How do they level up in low lvl PvP? By killing other players. Do CS skills and skyshards help them to kill people more effectively? Obviously, yes.
2. They level up in low lvl PvP because they don't want to do PvE. So, will they grind out all the skilllines and skyshards in PvE then or maybe they'd rather buy them in CS, since they hate PvE?
3. They want to max out their characters ASAP. What could be better than just buying all skills and skyshards required in a matter of seconds?
So, maybe I just don't get it but what is the point of this comment? Whom it was supposed to convince and convince in what?
'People don't play low lvl PvP for long, so there's nothing in CS skills and skyshards to get their attention'.
LoL, just LoL.One of the two of us definitely has gone mad. It only remains to define whether this one is the whole world or just me.
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
Sick&tired of being kicked off from your house when you complete a dungeon? ComingBackHome addon is what you need!
Me is russian little bad in english :b0 -
Hallothiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hallothiel wrote: »Be honest how many PVP players do you imagine are going to want to waste their time and money just to be good in low level BG, most PVP players just use it as a fast way to level without having to do PVE content, there goal is to get to 50 not hang around there forever, they want to get the current over powered class maxed out and use the character in Cyrodiil or max level BG.
Oh my... I've lost count on flaws in this statement.
1. How do they level up in low lvl PvP? By killing other players. Do CS skills and skyshards help them to kill people more effectively? Obviously, yes.
2. They level up in low lvl PvP because they don't want to do PvE. So, will they grind out all the skilllines and skyshards in PvE then or maybe they'd rather buy them in CS, since they hate PvE?
3. They want to max out their characters ASAP. What could be better than just buying all skills and skyshards required in a matter of seconds?
So, maybe I just don't get it but what is the point of this comment? Whom it was supposed to convince and convince in what?
'People don't play low lvl PvP for long, so there's nothing in CS skills and skyshards to get their attention'.
LoL, just LoL.
Was actually quoting someone else but as on phone not the easiest thing.
I know that pvp players grind characters up in BG etc. I know that they want to get those skills etc asap to get into ‘proper’ pvp. So not sure why people getting all “ooooh pay to whinge” when its not.
So they level up faster? Great. What does that matter? Are there really players that constantly re-roll toons to be the ‘best’ in under 50 pvp? Really?1 -
BNOC✭✭✭✭✭Anyone that mentions Under 50's BG's in regards to P2w is an idiot and clearly hasn't been in there.vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Anyone that mentions Under 50's BG's in regards to P2w is an idiot and clearly hasn't been in there.
Why?
I mean, sure, the disparity between actually new players and experienced players leveling alts is pretty dramatic anyways, but still, players can buy skill lines to use well before the non-paying players can.
For example, when I ran my level 10 stam sorc in BGs, I really missed having Vigor available as a self-heal. A player who bought the Alliance War skill line could start using that as a level 10 in BGs. Sure, the advantage only lasts until I also rank up enough to get Vigor, but in the meantime, its a skill they paid to get to use that's an advantage over other players.
My gripe with low level BGs is that while the P2W aspect is ultimately temporary, it's still present at lower levels and it does disadvantage non-paying players. I would have been much happier if the skill lines had been locked until level 50 or until unlocked the normal way, for the people who do like to grind it out for low level BGs.1 -
KappaKid83✭✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »KappaKid83 wrote: »So because you can buy skill lines on ALTERNATE characters it is pay to win?
It is P2W, especially in low level BGs / Cyro.
Tell me, if I create a new alt, what level I will be at, if I will max out fighters guild, mages guild and undaunted ? It is hell of a grind and I do believe that I will be at max level (50) by the time I will level those skills up. Not to mention that I will have to explore some zones in order to get skill points from skyshards.
With that being said, If I will create new alt, and right after tutorial I can literally BUY fully levelled skills lines and skill points... and still be at level 3. This means that I can just level up to level 10 to unlock PvP, and start PvPing while having access to all those skills like: Meteor, Dawnbreaker, Turn Evil, Undaunted passives... And on top of that I will still have access to low-level up scaling bonus.
The point is: There is no other way to get those skill lines and still be low level other than paying for it, which means that player who paid RL MONEY has an advantage over some one who did not, meaning that it is in fact, PAY TO WIN.
If you are creating only alts to be competitive in low level BG's and Cyro you, in my opinion, doing something wrong.2 -
KappaKid83✭✭✭✭✭KappaKid83 wrote: »Now that ESO is moving more towards a pay-to-win game... I think they should implement a means in which players can earn crowns within the game. The crown's could be tied to achievements or trophies. What do you think?
So because you can buy skill lines on ALTERNATE characters it is pay to win? Please, you have to grind the subsequent skill line on another character first before you can even unlock it on a second, third, etc. character.
Was it a seemingly huge money grab to buff all skills within purchasable skill lines to be almost BiS across the board? Yes. But you still had to grind at least once to get it done. It is not pay to win, it is pay for convenience.
Put down the pitchfork and get to grinding.
what about PvP on low level alts?
you clearly didnt see how it looks like to face someone lvl 20 with all guilds maxed while ur poor low lvl alt still struggles to get things done the non P2W way
Are you and the other people stating the low level alt argument going to always have low level alts or are you going to level them to max level and jump into CP and Non-CP max level campaigns? Seems pretty asinine to try and not level these characters as there is no way to lock a characters level as there was in WoW(twinks). Also, there are exponentially more efficient ways to level a character than doing low level BGs, seems like this may be a better avenue for you.3 -
KappaKid83✭✭✭✭✭KappaKid83 wrote: »I think it would be fair to players who don't want to spend the money, or have the money to spend, but also don't want to be left behind by the players that have the money to quickly buy these new skills, skyshards etc
These skills are not new to their account neither are the sky shards, this whole thread is naive or you don't understand what the purchasable skill line actually is and how it works. If you don't know how it works then you should read up on it before posting.
Naïve you say? I know exactly how those things work and have unlocked them. I see the game becoming increasingly Pay2win. Players that pay monthly sub shouldn’t have to pay $30/skill line to unlock this stuff. They could have easily been made available in game for in-game currency, at least for subscribers.
To not realize that ZOS is doing huge cash grab with this stuff from people that play for free as well as those that pay sub and has crossed the line to P2Win is what I would consider naïve.
You clearly didn't read my other post stating that it was a huge cash grab to make those skills BiS across the board, but keep the blinders on and read what you'd like.1 -
KappaKid83✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »ITT: Punish those who have jobs/careers/disposable income and give freebies to those who don't want to put time and effort into unlocking things themselves.
YeahVaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
Except the only area where those who bought the skills have any advantage over those who don't is low level PVP, and then only below the level when a player could gain those leveled skills naturally.
Everywhere else, you aren't really competing with other players at low levels, so there's no advantage.
Outside of low level PVP, its pay for convenience. Pay to spend less time grinding.
So first off you're admitting it is pay to win, because it does give in game advantages, but only to low level pvp in your opnion.
Second, I'm pretty sure PVP players don't really need the DB/TG skill lines, those are basically just PVE buffs. Also Undaunted isn't for just for PVP, pretty sure you only get it through leveling PVE, same with the fighters guild and mages guild. Those skill lines also got huge dps buffs this patch (wonder why).
Sooooooo you might wanna rethink your argument there pal. It's pay to win and it's not meant to be for PVP players. It's for hardcore PVE players to not have to level up 4 guild lines in order to make a character viable for endgame trials. Can PVP benefit? Absoutely, but it's not cuz of PVP that this was introduced.
I dunno if you quite got the argument there.
1. It isnt pay to win in PVE. Like, at all. By the time you hit competitive PVE or end game content, any player who didn't buy the skill lines could have them leveled up. The only advantage PVE players get from buying them is spending less time grinding those skill lines, which is pure pay for convenience.
2. It is pay to win in PVP...for a relatively small time period below the level where a player who didn't buy them could level them. Even there, level 10 players could easily have Mages Guild and Psijic Order unlocked. Werewolf is easy to grind up for low level BGs. The two hard ones, in terms of levels, are Fighters Guild and Undaunted. Even there, they arent hard - just dolmen grind and doing the delve quests with a large group willing to share - but I'm not sure how much you'd level up from the exp.
So the advantage disappears the more you level up even in low level PVP, as players obtain those skill lines the usual way. Then by the time you get to actually competitive PVP at level 50, the advantage is completely gone, as everyone has had the chance to get those skills the normal way.
I'm not going to rethink that argument, BTW. The skill lines are pay to win in low level PVP, and I wish ZOS had required players to be level 50 in order to buy them. That would have given all players an equal timeframe to acquire those skills, whether or not they bought them.
1. If it is pay to win anywhere it is pay to win. I know you're trying really hard to say it isn't pay to win in pve but that's where the majority of your player base is and where most of the money will be coming from. Paying for less grinding time is still pay to win, the win is the convenience of not having to level. You "win" the guild tree. Pay to win doesn't mean you pay to win the game, it is again, paying for an advantage over other players. If you're paying for something that I can't afford and I have to grind it, it is pay to win.
2. It doesn't matter if the advantage goes away over time it is still pay to win by your own words. I'm not even going to address how dumb the rest of your statement is because you already admited IT IS PAY TO WIN.
3. PVE and PVP ARE ALWAYS COMPETITIVE. There is no competitive PVP at lvl 50, if you're in PVP it's competitive irregardless of level. Same with PVE. Do you really thing hardcore trial guilds aren't competing to hit first trial clears and first hard modes? When (not if, when) ZOS drops a new class what is it going to take to make it viable? You spend a few hours grinding Skyreach and buy all your skill lines and boom you're now a fully functional DPS while other people spend weeks grinding because they aren't able to just buy the skills.
4. You should rethink your argument as your argument is all i need to prove this *** is pay to win.
1) What exactly are you winning in a PvE environment? A DPS meter race?
2) Calling people dumb as your counterpoint generally points to you being the one who is wrong, not the other way around.
3) What percentage of players that are on high end raiding guilds are actually bringing toons that aren't 50 and do not have the required sets/skills unlocked
4) You should rethink yours and maybe put the pitchfork away, paying for convenience is never pay to win.3 -
KappaKid83✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »ITT: Punish those who have jobs/careers/disposable income and give freebies to those who don't want to put time and effort into unlocking things themselves.
YeahVaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
Except the only area where those who bought the skills have any advantage over those who don't is low level PVP, and then only below the level when a player could gain those leveled skills naturally.
Everywhere else, you aren't really competing with other players at low levels, so there's no advantage.
Outside of low level PVP, its pay for convenience. Pay to spend less time grinding.
So first off you're admitting it is pay to win, because it does give in game advantages, but only to low level pvp in your opnion.
Second, I'm pretty sure PVP players don't really need the DB/TG skill lines, those are basically just PVE buffs. Also Undaunted isn't for just for PVP, pretty sure you only get it through leveling PVE, same with the fighters guild and mages guild. Those skill lines also got huge dps buffs this patch (wonder why).
Sooooooo you might wanna rethink your argument there pal. It's pay to win and it's not meant to be for PVP players. It's for hardcore PVE players to not have to level up 4 guild lines in order to make a character viable for endgame trials. Can PVP benefit? Absoutely, but it's not cuz of PVP that this was introduced.
I dunno if you quite got the argument there.
1. It isnt pay to win in PVE. Like, at all. By the time you hit competitive PVE or end game content, any player who didn't buy the skill lines could have them leveled up. The only advantage PVE players get from buying them is spending less time grinding those skill lines, which is pure pay for convenience.
2. It is pay to win in PVP...for a relatively small time period below the level where a player who didn't buy them could level them. Even there, level 10 players could easily have Mages Guild and Psijic Order unlocked. Werewolf is easy to grind up for low level BGs. The two hard ones, in terms of levels, are Fighters Guild and Undaunted. Even there, they arent hard - just dolmen grind and doing the delve quests with a large group willing to share - but I'm not sure how much you'd level up from the exp.
So the advantage disappears the more you level up even in low level PVP, as players obtain those skill lines the usual way. Then by the time you get to actually competitive PVP at level 50, the advantage is completely gone, as everyone has had the chance to get those skills the normal way.
I'm not going to rethink that argument, BTW. The skill lines are pay to win in low level PVP, and I wish ZOS had required players to be level 50 in order to buy them. That would have given all players an equal timeframe to acquire those skills, whether or not they bought them.
1. If it is pay to win anywhere it is pay to win. I know you're trying really hard to say it isn't pay to win in pve but that's where the majority of your player base is and where most of the money will be coming from. Paying for less grinding time is still pay to win, the win is the convenience of not having to level. You "win" the guild tree. Pay to win doesn't mean you pay to win the game, it is again, paying for an advantage over other players. If you're paying for something that I can't afford and I have to grind it, it is pay to win.
2. It doesn't matter if the advantage goes away over time it is still pay to win by your own words. I'm not even going to address how dumb the rest of your statement is because you already admited IT IS PAY TO WIN.
3. PVE and PVP ARE ALWAYS COMPETITIVE. There is no competitive PVP at lvl 50, if you're in PVP it's competitive irregardless of level. Same with PVE. Do you really thing hardcore trial guilds aren't competing to hit first trial clears and first hard modes? When (not if, when) ZOS drops a new class what is it going to take to make it viable? You spend a few hours grinding Skyreach and buy all your skill lines and boom you're now a fully functional DPS while other people spend weeks grinding because they aren't able to just buy the skills.
4. You should rethink your argument as your argument is all i need to prove this *** is pay to win.
I...I don't disagree with you in low level PVP. As for the rest, you don't understand the difference between pay to win and pay for convenience.
1. Its not pay to win in PVE. Having a time advantage is not Pay to Win, its pay for convenience.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
Similarly, in PVE, skyshards and skill lines are pay for convenience.
By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better.
2. Again, it's pay to win. For a time. Then its not because everyone has had ample oppprtunity to get them. I already told you my solution: lock the purchase skill lines to level 50, when other players have had sufficient chance to obtain those skills if they want to grind the normal way.
3. It's still pay for convenience. You are paying to get something faster than players doing it the normal way. See exp scrolls, ESO+ sub experience, riding lessons, etc.
My qualms about PVP could be solved if ZOS locked purchased skill lines until they were leveled up normally or until level 50. Making it so every player had equal oppprtunity to unlock the skill lines in an appropriate timeframe would make them not pay to win.
1. It is pay to win in PVE. Paying for convenience is pay to win. It's a very simple concept.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
All your examples minus the crafting bag are pay to win. The only reason the crafting bag isn't is because it is part of the subscription that you get with the DLCs. If they sold the crafting bag separately for no sub it would be pay to win.
Horse riding is pay to win but probably the most minimal offender
Exp scrolls are pay to win in comparison to in game items. You're paying to not have to level provisioning to gain the best buff possible. Sorry you're wrong.
Research scrolls are pay to win. The ones you can buy in came are limited to 24 hour time reduction and you can only use 1 every 24 hours. Crown store research scrolls can take weeks at a time off and have no cool down time. This is an in game advantage in PVE and PVP for your armors and weapons both crafting and transmuting.
Sky shards are pay to win. It doesn't matter if you've earned it once, if your character can buy them all from the start after that is a GIGANTIC advantage over someone that has to go back and rerun every sky shard.
"By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better."
The win is the time saved do you really not understand that? Do you know how much time it takes to get every skyshard and every guild skill line? It's much more time than it takes to get to cp160 unless you had a guide for everything. Do you realize that if I ran all my guys, the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them and then you buy all yours that's a pay to win advantage. At this point I'm not sure if you work for ZOS or maybe english isn't your primary language but this is pretty easy to follow.
2. Again pay to win for a time is still pay to win. It doesn't matter if it's for a day, you're still paying for an advantage other players wouldn't have for that day. You can keep trying to twist it all you want but you're wrong. Imagine if I had the ability to pay for Volendrung once a day because I already have one of the achievements for it and I could just summon it in PVP once a day for 1 hour at a time. That's not pay to win right? It's to pay for the convenience of farming AP. For a time. Your logic is smart and solid.
3. This isn't even a point, you're just rehashing point 1. No, it is pay to win https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items.
Let me break this down. You're paying for downloadable content to gain and advantage over people playing, you know, the normal way before we could purchase them. This is pay to win by definition. You're just proving my points.
We have a irreconcilable difference of opinion.
You think that paying to get stuff faster but not better in Pay to Win. Paying for better stuff is also Pay to Win, of course.
I think that paying to get stuff faster is Pay for Convenience. Paying for better stuff is Pay to Win.
We aren't gonna agree, that much is clear.
So lets agree to disagree?
You have a great day!
No, we're not playing the opinion game. It is by definition pay to win and you are wrong.
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers
No. I don't think that. I think paying for non cosmetics is pay to win. You can pay for better or you can pay for faster but you're still paying for an advantage, which again is the definition of p2w.
You have a great day though.
Plagiarizing is not a good look for ya, maybe come up with something original. I could use quotes around everything but when it is an unsourced quote what weight do the words hold, none.1 -
BNOC✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Anyone that mentions Under 50's BG's in regards to P2w is an idiot and clearly hasn't been in there.
Why?
I mean, sure, the disparity between actually new players and experienced players leveling alts is pretty dramatic anyways, but still, players can buy skill lines to use well before the non-paying players can.
For example, when I ran my level 10 stam sorc in BGs, I really missed having Vigor available as a self-heal. A player who bought the Alliance War skill line could start using that as a level 10 in BGs. Sure, the advantage only lasts until I also rank up enough to get Vigor, but in the meantime, its a skill they paid to get to use that's an advantage over other players.
My gripe with low level BGs is that while the P2W aspect is ultimately temporary, it's still present at lower levels and it does disadvantage non-paying players. I would have been much happier if the skill lines had been locked until level 50 or until unlocked the normal way, for the people who do like to grind it out for low level BGs.
If you want to consider it P2w, you're talking about a tiny tiny window of opportunity where equally skilled players, in equal gear, with equal RNG on their output may benefit a tiny amount by having these perks (against one another) - Nothing more than that and that's never going to be a remotely common scenario.
The disparity between existing and new is massive and gear, food, potions, enchants etc are the biggest amplifiers of that.
If I'm ever in an U50 and a level 10 has the exact same setup as me but has vigor, I hope I'm on a level 13 with a few more skills unlocked etc because that's about as much advantage as that's worth (Though I probably have vigor as well by that level)
Non concern:
A level 49 beginner with all possible passives, all guilds or whatever you want still loses to an experienced player at level 15 rocking a crafted setup - They'd still lose if they had gear sets as well, I'm positive.
A level 49 experienced player with only a crafted setup would comfortably beat a level 15 experienced player with all the guilds and passives - With or without gear sets as well.
Almost any level experienced player in anything would wipe the floor with a beginner regardless of what they were doing.
The tiny window it could be considered p2w:
Experienced player vs experienced player, same level, same everything from above (because none of it is equally balanced), - The one who's bought everything has a marginally better chance against the other, but it's not even worth considering how little that is.
If that's where it exists then yeah, it exists, but that's a non issue imo.Edited by BNOC on August 29, 2019 3:36PMvMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KappaKid83 wrote: »KappaKid83 wrote: »Now that ESO is moving more towards a pay-to-win game... I think they should implement a means in which players can earn crowns within the game. The crown's could be tied to achievements or trophies. What do you think?
So because you can buy skill lines on ALTERNATE characters it is pay to win? Please, you have to grind the subsequent skill line on another character first before you can even unlock it on a second, third, etc. character.
Was it a seemingly huge money grab to buff all skills within purchasable skill lines to be almost BiS across the board? Yes. But you still had to grind at least once to get it done. It is not pay to win, it is pay for convenience.
Put down the pitchfork and get to grinding.
what about PvP on low level alts?
you clearly didnt see how it looks like to face someone lvl 20 with all guilds maxed while ur poor low lvl alt still struggles to get things done the non P2W way
Are you and the other people stating the low level alt argument going to always have low level alts or are you going to level them to max level and jump into CP and Non-CP max level campaigns? Seems pretty asinine to try and not level these characters as there is no way to lock a characters level as there was in WoW(twinks). Also, there are exponentially more efficient ways to level a character than doing low level BGs, seems like this may be a better avenue for you.
Its a temporary advantage, but still an advantage over non-paying players who can't possibly have unlocked those skills at that level. A non paying level 10 can't possibly have Vigor or any other alliance war skill unlocked when they enter PVP for the first time.
And actually, running the daily random battleground starting at level 10 is a pretty good way to level up, especially if you can't stand doing the Alikr Dolmen grind for hours. I tend to level up my recent alts via the daily random BG and dungeon because its at least a change of pace from grinding the same content. At least each fight is a little different. To each their own!1 -
KappaKid83✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »KappaKid83 wrote: »KappaKid83 wrote: »Now that ESO is moving more towards a pay-to-win game... I think they should implement a means in which players can earn crowns within the game. The crown's could be tied to achievements or trophies. What do you think?
So because you can buy skill lines on ALTERNATE characters it is pay to win? Please, you have to grind the subsequent skill line on another character first before you can even unlock it on a second, third, etc. character.
Was it a seemingly huge money grab to buff all skills within purchasable skill lines to be almost BiS across the board? Yes. But you still had to grind at least once to get it done. It is not pay to win, it is pay for convenience.
Put down the pitchfork and get to grinding.
what about PvP on low level alts?
you clearly didnt see how it looks like to face someone lvl 20 with all guilds maxed while ur poor low lvl alt still struggles to get things done the non P2W way
Are you and the other people stating the low level alt argument going to always have low level alts or are you going to level them to max level and jump into CP and Non-CP max level campaigns? Seems pretty asinine to try and not level these characters as there is no way to lock a characters level as there was in WoW(twinks). Also, there are exponentially more efficient ways to level a character than doing low level BGs, seems like this may be a better avenue for you.
Its a temporary advantage, but still an advantage over non-paying players who can't possibly have unlocked those skills at that level. A non paying level 10 can't possibly have Vigor or any other alliance war skill unlocked when they enter PVP for the first time.
And actually, running the daily random battleground starting at level 10 is a pretty good way to level up, especially if you can't stand doing the Alikr Dolmen grind for hours. I tend to level up my recent alts via the daily random BG and dungeon because its at least a change of pace from grinding the same content. At least each fight is a little different. To each their own!
I understand that it is a pretty good way to level up but not the most efficient. And yes to each their own, that's the cool thing about this game, you can, for the most part, play it how you'd like. But in reality I would guess less than 3% of the player base plays the low level BGs and buys these skill lines for these alts. Maybe they will buy the skill line after they hit max, I know with currently leveling a Temp and a Necro I don't want to commit too early to my eso+ crown usage too early in case my taste for a class changes, but very rarely, in my opinion, blast off their crowns on something they MAY finish leveling.2 -
sevomd69✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »ITT: Punish those who have jobs/careers/disposable income and give freebies to those who don't want to put time and effort into unlocking things themselves.
YeahVaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
Except the only area where those who bought the skills have any advantage over those who don't is low level PVP, and then only below the level when a player could gain those leveled skills naturally.
Everywhere else, you aren't really competing with other players at low levels, so there's no advantage.
Outside of low level PVP, its pay for convenience. Pay to spend less time grinding.
So first off you're admitting it is pay to win, because it does give in game advantages, but only to low level pvp in your opnion.
Second, I'm pretty sure PVP players don't really need the DB/TG skill lines, those are basically just PVE buffs. Also Undaunted isn't for just for PVP, pretty sure you only get it through leveling PVE, same with the fighters guild and mages guild. Those skill lines also got huge dps buffs this patch (wonder why).
Sooooooo you might wanna rethink your argument there pal. It's pay to win and it's not meant to be for PVP players. It's for hardcore PVE players to not have to level up 4 guild lines in order to make a character viable for endgame trials. Can PVP benefit? Absoutely, but it's not cuz of PVP that this was introduced.
I dunno if you quite got the argument there.
1. It isnt pay to win in PVE. Like, at all. By the time you hit competitive PVE or end game content, any player who didn't buy the skill lines could have them leveled up. The only advantage PVE players get from buying them is spending less time grinding those skill lines, which is pure pay for convenience.
2. It is pay to win in PVP...for a relatively small time period below the level where a player who didn't buy them could level them. Even there, level 10 players could easily have Mages Guild and Psijic Order unlocked. Werewolf is easy to grind up for low level BGs. The two hard ones, in terms of levels, are Fighters Guild and Undaunted. Even there, they arent hard - just dolmen grind and doing the delve quests with a large group willing to share - but I'm not sure how much you'd level up from the exp.
So the advantage disappears the more you level up even in low level PVP, as players obtain those skill lines the usual way. Then by the time you get to actually competitive PVP at level 50, the advantage is completely gone, as everyone has had the chance to get those skills the normal way.
I'm not going to rethink that argument, BTW. The skill lines are pay to win in low level PVP, and I wish ZOS had required players to be level 50 in order to buy them. That would have given all players an equal timeframe to acquire those skills, whether or not they bought them.
1. If it is pay to win anywhere it is pay to win. I know you're trying really hard to say it isn't pay to win in pve but that's where the majority of your player base is and where most of the money will be coming from. Paying for less grinding time is still pay to win, the win is the convenience of not having to level. You "win" the guild tree. Pay to win doesn't mean you pay to win the game, it is again, paying for an advantage over other players. If you're paying for something that I can't afford and I have to grind it, it is pay to win.
2. It doesn't matter if the advantage goes away over time it is still pay to win by your own words. I'm not even going to address how dumb the rest of your statement is because you already admited IT IS PAY TO WIN.
3. PVE and PVP ARE ALWAYS COMPETITIVE. There is no competitive PVP at lvl 50, if you're in PVP it's competitive irregardless of level. Same with PVE. Do you really thing hardcore trial guilds aren't competing to hit first trial clears and first hard modes? When (not if, when) ZOS drops a new class what is it going to take to make it viable? You spend a few hours grinding Skyreach and buy all your skill lines and boom you're now a fully functional DPS while other people spend weeks grinding because they aren't able to just buy the skills.
4. You should rethink your argument as your argument is all i need to prove this *** is pay to win.
I...I don't disagree with you in low level PVP. As for the rest, you don't understand the difference between pay to win and pay for convenience.
1. Its not pay to win in PVE. Having a time advantage is not Pay to Win, its pay for convenience.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
Similarly, in PVE, skyshards and skill lines are pay for convenience.
By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better.
2. Again, it's pay to win. For a time. Then its not because everyone has had ample oppprtunity to get them. I already told you my solution: lock the purchase skill lines to level 50, when other players have had sufficient chance to obtain those skills if they want to grind the normal way.
3. It's still pay for convenience. You are paying to get something faster than players doing it the normal way. See exp scrolls, ESO+ sub experience, riding lessons, etc.
My qualms about PVP could be solved if ZOS locked purchased skill lines until they were leveled up normally or until level 50. Making it so every player had equal oppprtunity to unlock the skill lines in an appropriate timeframe would make them not pay to win.
1. It is pay to win in PVE. Paying for convenience is pay to win. It's a very simple concept.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
All your examples minus the crafting bag are pay to win. The only reason the crafting bag isn't is because it is part of the subscription that you get with the DLCs. If they sold the crafting bag separately for no sub it would be pay to win.
Horse riding is pay to win but probably the most minimal offender
Exp scrolls are pay to win in comparison to in game items. You're paying to not have to level provisioning to gain the best buff possible. Sorry you're wrong.
Research scrolls are pay to win. The ones you can buy in came are limited to 24 hour time reduction and you can only use 1 every 24 hours. Crown store research scrolls can take weeks at a time off and have no cool down time. This is an in game advantage in PVE and PVP for your armors and weapons both crafting and transmuting.
Sky shards are pay to win. It doesn't matter if you've earned it once, if your character can buy them all from the start after that is a GIGANTIC advantage over someone that has to go back and rerun every sky shard.
"By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better."
The win is the time saved do you really not understand that? Do you know how much time it takes to get every skyshard and every guild skill line? It's much more time than it takes to get to cp160 unless you had a guide for everything. Do you realize that if I ran all my guys, the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them and then you buy all yours that's a pay to win advantage. At this point I'm not sure if you work for ZOS or maybe english isn't your primary language but this is pretty easy to follow.
2. Again pay to win for a time is still pay to win. It doesn't matter if it's for a day, you're still paying for an advantage other players wouldn't have for that day. You can keep trying to twist it all you want but you're wrong. Imagine if I had the ability to pay for Volendrung once a day because I already have one of the achievements for it and I could just summon it in PVP once a day for 1 hour at a time. That's not pay to win right? It's to pay for the convenience of farming AP. For a time. Your logic is smart and solid.
3. This isn't even a point, you're just rehashing point 1. No, it is pay to win https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items.
Let me break this down. You're paying for downloadable content to gain and advantage over people playing, you know, the normal way before we could purchase them. This is pay to win by definition. You're just proving my points.
We have a irreconcilable difference of opinion.
You think that paying to get stuff faster but not better in Pay to Win. Paying for better stuff is also Pay to Win, of course.
I think that paying to get stuff faster is Pay for Convenience. Paying for better stuff is Pay to Win.
We aren't gonna agree, that much is clear.
So lets agree to disagree?
You have a great day!
No, we're not playing the opinion game. It is by definition pay to win and you are wrong.
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers
No. I don't think that. I think paying for non cosmetics is pay to win. You can pay for better or you can pay for faster but you're still paying for an advantage, which again is the definition of p2w.
You have a great day though.
No... You are wrong...lol...see how that works...obstinacy is a two way street...
Also good job using a definition from Wiki to bolster your OPINION...
"No... You are wrong...lol...see how that works...obstinacy is a two way street... "
Pretty sure I also had examples but it looks like reading isn't your strong suit though.
Oh wait sorry professor, what's your definition? Oh you don't have one gotcha gotcha.
It's an impartial statement about pay to win that is someone else's words not my own. Sorry I used wikipedia, here's a list of US court cases where they thought it was ok to use wiki. Forgot though, you're clearly a high IQ individual and the courts are below you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_as_a_court_source
Is that ok with you random internet tough guy? Thanks for taking your time away from curing cancer away to come to the ESO forums and hit us with that hot take. It's only opinion though, so I'll wait around for you to hit me with some links to disway my position on this, I'm sure you're loaded with high tier information.
If you think what I said constitutes being an internet tough guy...lol... you get that definition from Wiki too?
No matter how much you huff and puff... ZOS ain't gonna be doing anything differently...and if you're so adamantly against it...maybe you should just move onto another game...and get on your soapbox in those forums...I think Neverwinter would really get your dander up... a true P2W game...
BTW... WTF is disway? Get that from Wiki also?Edited by sevomd69 on August 29, 2019 1:22PM2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KappaKid83 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »KappaKid83 wrote: »KappaKid83 wrote: »Now that ESO is moving more towards a pay-to-win game... I think they should implement a means in which players can earn crowns within the game. The crown's could be tied to achievements or trophies. What do you think?
So because you can buy skill lines on ALTERNATE characters it is pay to win? Please, you have to grind the subsequent skill line on another character first before you can even unlock it on a second, third, etc. character.
Was it a seemingly huge money grab to buff all skills within purchasable skill lines to be almost BiS across the board? Yes. But you still had to grind at least once to get it done. It is not pay to win, it is pay for convenience.
Put down the pitchfork and get to grinding.
what about PvP on low level alts?
you clearly didnt see how it looks like to face someone lvl 20 with all guilds maxed while ur poor low lvl alt still struggles to get things done the non P2W way
Are you and the other people stating the low level alt argument going to always have low level alts or are you going to level them to max level and jump into CP and Non-CP max level campaigns? Seems pretty asinine to try and not level these characters as there is no way to lock a characters level as there was in WoW(twinks). Also, there are exponentially more efficient ways to level a character than doing low level BGs, seems like this may be a better avenue for you.
Its a temporary advantage, but still an advantage over non-paying players who can't possibly have unlocked those skills at that level. A non paying level 10 can't possibly have Vigor or any other alliance war skill unlocked when they enter PVP for the first time.
And actually, running the daily random battleground starting at level 10 is a pretty good way to level up, especially if you can't stand doing the Alikr Dolmen grind for hours. I tend to level up my recent alts via the daily random BG and dungeon because its at least a change of pace from grinding the same content. At least each fight is a little different. To each their own!
I understand that it is a pretty good way to level up but not the most efficient. And yes to each their own, that's the cool thing about this game, you can, for the most part, play it how you'd like. But in reality I would guess less than 3% of the player base plays the low level BGs and buys these skill lines for these alts. Maybe they will buy the skill line after they hit max, I know with currently leveling a Temp and a Necro I don't want to commit too early to my eso+ crown usage too early in case my taste for a class changes, but very rarely, in my opinion, blast off their crowns on something they MAY finish leveling.
I understand that your argument is essentially "Its just a small problem only effecting a small number of players for a short time."
Whereas my argumemt is "Its a temporary problem that impacts a relatively small population, sure, but no less real for the players it impacts."
ZOS ignored the impact this would have on low level BGs and the low level Cyrodiil campaign. IMO, that's a problem for those two game modes and ZOS ought to have considered them. Whether they are small or don't impact a lot of players is no excuse for developers allowing players to buy advantages, even just temporary ones, over their non-paying opponents.1 -
KappaKid83✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »KappaKid83 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »KappaKid83 wrote: »KappaKid83 wrote: »Now that ESO is moving more towards a pay-to-win game... I think they should implement a means in which players can earn crowns within the game. The crown's could be tied to achievements or trophies. What do you think?
So because you can buy skill lines on ALTERNATE characters it is pay to win? Please, you have to grind the subsequent skill line on another character first before you can even unlock it on a second, third, etc. character.
Was it a seemingly huge money grab to buff all skills within purchasable skill lines to be almost BiS across the board? Yes. But you still had to grind at least once to get it done. It is not pay to win, it is pay for convenience.
Put down the pitchfork and get to grinding.
what about PvP on low level alts?
you clearly didnt see how it looks like to face someone lvl 20 with all guilds maxed while ur poor low lvl alt still struggles to get things done the non P2W way
Are you and the other people stating the low level alt argument going to always have low level alts or are you going to level them to max level and jump into CP and Non-CP max level campaigns? Seems pretty asinine to try and not level these characters as there is no way to lock a characters level as there was in WoW(twinks). Also, there are exponentially more efficient ways to level a character than doing low level BGs, seems like this may be a better avenue for you.
Its a temporary advantage, but still an advantage over non-paying players who can't possibly have unlocked those skills at that level. A non paying level 10 can't possibly have Vigor or any other alliance war skill unlocked when they enter PVP for the first time.
And actually, running the daily random battleground starting at level 10 is a pretty good way to level up, especially if you can't stand doing the Alikr Dolmen grind for hours. I tend to level up my recent alts via the daily random BG and dungeon because its at least a change of pace from grinding the same content. At least each fight is a little different. To each their own!
I understand that it is a pretty good way to level up but not the most efficient. And yes to each their own, that's the cool thing about this game, you can, for the most part, play it how you'd like. But in reality I would guess less than 3% of the player base plays the low level BGs and buys these skill lines for these alts. Maybe they will buy the skill line after they hit max, I know with currently leveling a Temp and a Necro I don't want to commit too early to my eso+ crown usage too early in case my taste for a class changes, but very rarely, in my opinion, blast off their crowns on something they MAY finish leveling.
I understand that your argument is essentially "Its just a small problem only effecting a small number of players for a short time."
Whereas my argumemt is "Its a temporary problem that impacts a relatively small population, sure, but no less real for the players it impacts."
ZOS ignored the impact this would have on low level BGs and the low level Cyrodiil campaign. IMO, that's a problem for those two game modes and ZOS ought to have considered them. Whether they are small or don't impact a lot of players is no excuse for developers allowing players to buy advantages, even just temporary ones, over their non-paying opponents.
I think that you are right with this part of the argument but I think as a whole it is such a small number within the game that its' tangible effects to the gameplay are minute. Also, to address the small problem part of your post, do you think the game should worry more about early game play/content or the entirety of the rest of the game which comes at and after achieving max level? I would assume it is healthier to the game to concentrate more on the late/max level stuff than the early to mid content.1
This discussion has been closed.