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Pay to Win
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Hapexamendios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Whatever you call it I know I’m not paying those prices just for a skill line.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hapexamendios wrote: »Whatever you call it I know I’m not paying those prices just for a skill line.
The very fact that you don't have to in order to do well at the game is a strong indication that they aren't pay to win.8 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »The should be crown nodes to farm in the world, or fish. Or perhaps crafters should be able to craft crowns. Also daily crown hireling.
Lol.....best idea ever...☝️
They will never do it. I wish they would, though, because it would absolutely mean the death of bots. They would have to hire actual game masters to properly deal with bots. This would be abused like no other.0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.Edited by Rave the Histborn on August 29, 2019 12:35AM4 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think it would be fair to players who don't want to spend the money, or have the money to spend, but also don't want to be left behind by the players that have the money to quickly buy these new skills, skyshards etc
Left behind?
Dude, the game is 5 years old. Vast numbers of people have had these skills lines maxed out for years. There's nothing to be 'left behind' on - the race was over long ago.3 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage....
...that you can only get with cash.
i.e, when people who pay $ gain an advantage that people who don't pay $ can't get.
Like all those wonderful Eastern open-pvp games that sell things like better healing potions/BIS gear/faster mounts/etc in their cash shops. Oh, and item enchantment systems where you need to get everything to +14 in order to compete, but you need cash shop consumables to have more than a 1% chance of success at the enchanting. With your gear being destroyed if you fail. That's one's a big p2w.
(oh, and let's not forget the one Aeria game I tried once. That had most of that stuff, but then also had monthly "contests" on their website where you got bonus prizes for spending more. With things like "spend more than $1500 this month, and get a favor from a GM!" That seems kind of p2w.
) 5 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
Except the only area where those who bought the skills have any advantage over those who don't is low level PVP, and then only below the level when a player could gain those leveled skills naturally.
Everywhere else, you aren't really competing with other players at low levels, so there's no advantage.
Outside of low level PVP, its pay for convenience. Pay to spend less time grinding.2 -
Bighits✭✭Yes but how many people have played for 5 years?.... I certainly haven't. I think the majority of people who play this game have played far less than 5 years. It's okay that you have that experience but many others do not.0
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Isteris✭✭✭never going to buy skills or shards, i work the skills/ get sky shards on alts when i dont have a lot of game time or i just cant be bothered with any of umteem in game things i have going on. i can watch tv or a film on one screen and park my alt at a dolman on the other, thats 12 to 24 dolmans per film, it dont take long to get your skills topped out without even having to think about it. anyway pay to win its not, pay so you dont have to play maybe!0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
Except the only area where those who bought the skills have any advantage over those who don't is low level PVP, and then only below the level when a player could gain those leveled skills naturally.
Everywhere else, you aren't really competing with other players at low levels, so there's no advantage.
Outside of low level PVP, its pay for convenience. Pay to spend less time grinding.
So first off you're admitting it is pay to win, because it does give in game advantages, but only to low level pvp in your opnion.
Second, I'm pretty sure PVP players don't really need the DB/TG skill lines, those are basically just PVE buffs. Also Undaunted isn't for just for PVP, pretty sure you only get it through leveling PVE, same with the fighters guild and mages guild. Those skill lines also got huge dps buffs this patch (wonder why).
Sooooooo you might wanna rethink your argument there pal. It's pay to win and it's not meant to be for PVP players. It's for hardcore PVE players to not have to level up 4 guild lines in order to make a character viable for endgame trials. Can PVP benefit? Absoutely, but it's not cuz of PVP that this was introduced.0 -
StormeReigns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ITT: Punish those who have jobs/careers/disposable income and give freebies to those who don't want to put time and effort into unlocking things themselves.2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
Except the only area where those who bought the skills have any advantage over those who don't is low level PVP, and then only below the level when a player could gain those leveled skills naturally.
Everywhere else, you aren't really competing with other players at low levels, so there's no advantage.
Outside of low level PVP, its pay for convenience. Pay to spend less time grinding.
So first off you're admitting it is pay to win, because it does give in game advantages, but only to low level pvp in your opnion.
Second, I'm pretty sure PVP players don't really need the DB/TG skill lines, those are basically just PVE buffs. Also Undaunted isn't for just for PVP, pretty sure you only get it through leveling PVE, same with the fighters guild and mages guild. Those skill lines also got huge dps buffs this patch (wonder why).
Sooooooo you might wanna rethink your argument there pal. It's pay to win and it's not meant to be for PVP players. It's for hardcore PVE players to not have to level up 4 guild lines in order to make a character viable for endgame trials. Can PVP benefit? Absoutely, but it's not cuz of PVP that this was introduced.
I dunno if you quite got the argument there.
1. It isnt pay to win in PVE. Like, at all. By the time you hit competitive PVE or end game content, any player who didn't buy the skill lines could have them leveled up. The only advantage PVE players get from buying them is spending less time grinding those skill lines, which is pure pay for convenience.
2. It is pay to win in PVP...for a relatively small time period below the level where a player who didn't buy them could level them. Even there, level 10 players could easily have Mages Guild and Psijic Order unlocked. Werewolf is easy to grind up for low level BGs. The two hard ones, in terms of levels, are Fighters Guild and Undaunted. Even there, they arent hard - just dolmen grind and doing the delve quests with a large group willing to share - but I'm not sure how much you'd level up from the exp.
So the advantage disappears the more you level up even in low level PVP, as players obtain those skill lines the usual way. Then by the time you get to actually competitive PVP at level 50, the advantage is completely gone, as everyone has had the chance to get those skills the normal way.
I'm not going to rethink that argument, BTW. The skill lines are pay to win in low level PVP, and I wish ZOS had required players to be level 50 in order to buy them. That would have given all players an equal timeframe to acquire those skills, whether or not they bought them.2 -
bmnoble✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Its pay for convenience.
How is it in any way pay to win? What exactly are you winning? XP, Gold, various in game currencies? Strange I seem to recall being able to get all those without paying and by doing just about any content in the game.
If you count winning as killing lots of other players in PVP, skilled players in crafted gear have always been doing that as they level up new alts, its crystal clear in a BG who is skilled and who is new.
I ask this simple question other than saving time what are you getting for all this supposed winning, that you can't get already in game?
In theory players can waste money to dominate in low level battlegrounds, even if they drag their feet after reaching level 10 and just queue for death matches, most will quickly out level them and move onto the max level PVP anyway.
Be honest how many PVP players do you imagine are going to want to waste their time and money just to be good in low level BG, most PVP players just use it as a fast way to level without having to do PVE content, there goal is to get to 50 not hang around there forever, they want to get the current over powered class maxed out and use the character in Cyrodiil or max level BG.3 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes but how many people have played for 5 years?.... I certainly haven't. I think the majority of people who play this game have played far less than 5 years. It's okay that you have that experience but many others do not.
If you have played for a month three or four times a week you can have all the skills that would give any kind of advantage in PvP. Undaunted will take longer.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭ITT: Punish those who have jobs/careers/disposable income and give freebies to those who don't want to put time and effort into unlocking things themselves.
YeahVaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
Except the only area where those who bought the skills have any advantage over those who don't is low level PVP, and then only below the level when a player could gain those leveled skills naturally.
Everywhere else, you aren't really competing with other players at low levels, so there's no advantage.
Outside of low level PVP, its pay for convenience. Pay to spend less time grinding.
So first off you're admitting it is pay to win, because it does give in game advantages, but only to low level pvp in your opnion.
Second, I'm pretty sure PVP players don't really need the DB/TG skill lines, those are basically just PVE buffs. Also Undaunted isn't for just for PVP, pretty sure you only get it through leveling PVE, same with the fighters guild and mages guild. Those skill lines also got huge dps buffs this patch (wonder why).
Sooooooo you might wanna rethink your argument there pal. It's pay to win and it's not meant to be for PVP players. It's for hardcore PVE players to not have to level up 4 guild lines in order to make a character viable for endgame trials. Can PVP benefit? Absoutely, but it's not cuz of PVP that this was introduced.
I dunno if you quite got the argument there.
1. It isnt pay to win in PVE. Like, at all. By the time you hit competitive PVE or end game content, any player who didn't buy the skill lines could have them leveled up. The only advantage PVE players get from buying them is spending less time grinding those skill lines, which is pure pay for convenience.
2. It is pay to win in PVP...for a relatively small time period below the level where a player who didn't buy them could level them. Even there, level 10 players could easily have Mages Guild and Psijic Order unlocked. Werewolf is easy to grind up for low level BGs. The two hard ones, in terms of levels, are Fighters Guild and Undaunted. Even there, they arent hard - just dolmen grind and doing the delve quests with a large group willing to share - but I'm not sure how much you'd level up from the exp.
So the advantage disappears the more you level up even in low level PVP, as players obtain those skill lines the usual way. Then by the time you get to actually competitive PVP at level 50, the advantage is completely gone, as everyone has had the chance to get those skills the normal way.
I'm not going to rethink that argument, BTW. The skill lines are pay to win in low level PVP, and I wish ZOS had required players to be level 50 in order to buy them. That would have given all players an equal timeframe to acquire those skills, whether or not they bought them.
1. If it is pay to win anywhere it is pay to win. I know you're trying really hard to say it isn't pay to win in pve but that's where the majority of your player base is and where most of the money will be coming from. Paying for less grinding time is still pay to win, the win is the convenience of not having to level. You "win" the guild tree. Pay to win doesn't mean you pay to win the game, it is again, paying for an advantage over other players. If you're paying for something that I can't afford and I have to grind it, it is pay to win.
2. It doesn't matter if the advantage goes away over time it is still pay to win by your own words. I'm not even going to address how dumb the rest of your statement is because you already admited IT IS PAY TO WIN.
3. PVE and PVP ARE ALWAYS COMPETITIVE. There is no competitive PVP at lvl 50, if you're in PVP it's competitive irregardless of level. Same with PVE. Do you really thing hardcore trial guilds aren't competing to hit first trial clears and first hard modes? When (not if, when) ZOS drops a new class what is it going to take to make it viable? You spend a few hours grinding Skyreach and buy all your skill lines and boom you're now a fully functional DPS while other people spend weeks grinding because they aren't able to just buy the skills.
4. You should rethink your argument as your argument is all i need to prove this *** is pay to win.0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Its pay for convenience.
How is it in any way pay to win? What exactly are you winning? XP, Gold, various in game currencies? Strange I seem to recall being able to get all those without paying and by doing just about any content in the game.
If you count winning as killing lots of other players in PVP, skilled players in crafted gear have always been doing that as they level up new alts, its crystal clear in a BG who is skilled and who is new.
I ask this simple question other than saving time what are you getting for all this supposed winning, that you can't get already in game?
In theory players can waste money to dominate in low level battlegrounds, even if they drag their feet after reaching level 10 and just queue for death matches, most will quickly out level them and move onto the max level PVP anyway.
Be honest how many PVP players do you imagine are going to want to waste their time and money just to be good in low level BG, most PVP players just use it as a fast way to level without having to do PVE content, there goal is to get to 50 not hang around there forever, they want to get the current over powered class maxed out and use the character in Cyrodiil or max level BG.
The win is the time saving.
It's meant for PVE, not PVP. The kind of people that need these rewards aren't the kind of people that spend all day in Cyrodiil.0 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
With that being said, If I will create new alt, and right after tutorial I can literally BUY fully levelled skills lines and skill points... and still be at level 3. This means that I can just level up to level 10 to unlock PvP, and start PvPing while having access to all those skills like: Meteor, Dawnbreaker, Turn Evil, Undaunted passives... And on top of that I will still have access to low-level up scaling bonus.
If people do that repeatedly on alts, no matter how much they win at PvP, trust me, they're definitely losers....1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »ITT: Punish those who have jobs/careers/disposable income and give freebies to those who don't want to put time and effort into unlocking things themselves.
YeahVaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
Except the only area where those who bought the skills have any advantage over those who don't is low level PVP, and then only below the level when a player could gain those leveled skills naturally.
Everywhere else, you aren't really competing with other players at low levels, so there's no advantage.
Outside of low level PVP, its pay for convenience. Pay to spend less time grinding.
So first off you're admitting it is pay to win, because it does give in game advantages, but only to low level pvp in your opnion.
Second, I'm pretty sure PVP players don't really need the DB/TG skill lines, those are basically just PVE buffs. Also Undaunted isn't for just for PVP, pretty sure you only get it through leveling PVE, same with the fighters guild and mages guild. Those skill lines also got huge dps buffs this patch (wonder why).
Sooooooo you might wanna rethink your argument there pal. It's pay to win and it's not meant to be for PVP players. It's for hardcore PVE players to not have to level up 4 guild lines in order to make a character viable for endgame trials. Can PVP benefit? Absoutely, but it's not cuz of PVP that this was introduced.
I dunno if you quite got the argument there.
1. It isnt pay to win in PVE. Like, at all. By the time you hit competitive PVE or end game content, any player who didn't buy the skill lines could have them leveled up. The only advantage PVE players get from buying them is spending less time grinding those skill lines, which is pure pay for convenience.
2. It is pay to win in PVP...for a relatively small time period below the level where a player who didn't buy them could level them. Even there, level 10 players could easily have Mages Guild and Psijic Order unlocked. Werewolf is easy to grind up for low level BGs. The two hard ones, in terms of levels, are Fighters Guild and Undaunted. Even there, they arent hard - just dolmen grind and doing the delve quests with a large group willing to share - but I'm not sure how much you'd level up from the exp.
So the advantage disappears the more you level up even in low level PVP, as players obtain those skill lines the usual way. Then by the time you get to actually competitive PVP at level 50, the advantage is completely gone, as everyone has had the chance to get those skills the normal way.
I'm not going to rethink that argument, BTW. The skill lines are pay to win in low level PVP, and I wish ZOS had required players to be level 50 in order to buy them. That would have given all players an equal timeframe to acquire those skills, whether or not they bought them.
1. If it is pay to win anywhere it is pay to win. I know you're trying really hard to say it isn't pay to win in pve but that's where the majority of your player base is and where most of the money will be coming from. Paying for less grinding time is still pay to win, the win is the convenience of not having to level. You "win" the guild tree. Pay to win doesn't mean you pay to win the game, it is again, paying for an advantage over other players. If you're paying for something that I can't afford and I have to grind it, it is pay to win.
2. It doesn't matter if the advantage goes away over time it is still pay to win by your own words. I'm not even going to address how dumb the rest of your statement is because you already admited IT IS PAY TO WIN.
3. PVE and PVP ARE ALWAYS COMPETITIVE. There is no competitive PVP at lvl 50, if you're in PVP it's competitive irregardless of level. Same with PVE. Do you really thing hardcore trial guilds aren't competing to hit first trial clears and first hard modes? When (not if, when) ZOS drops a new class what is it going to take to make it viable? You spend a few hours grinding Skyreach and buy all your skill lines and boom you're now a fully functional DPS while other people spend weeks grinding because they aren't able to just buy the skills.
4. You should rethink your argument as your argument is all i need to prove this *** is pay to win.
I...I don't disagree with you in low level PVP. As for the rest, you don't understand the difference between pay to win and pay for convenience.
1. Its not pay to win in PVE. Having a time advantage is not Pay to Win, its pay for convenience.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
Similarly, in PVE, skyshards and skill lines are pay for convenience.
By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better.
2. Again, it's pay to win. For a time. Then its not because everyone has had ample oppprtunity to get them. I already told you my solution: lock the purchase skill lines to level 50, when other players have had sufficient chance to obtain those skills if they want to grind the normal way.
3. It's still pay for convenience. You are paying to get something faster than players doing it the normal way. See exp scrolls, ESO+ sub experience, riding lessons, etc.
My qualms about PVP could be solved if ZOS locked purchased skill lines until they were leveled up normally or until level 50. Making it so every player had equal oppprtunity to unlock the skill lines in an appropriate timeframe would make them not pay to win.Edited by VaranisArano on August 29, 2019 2:19AM1 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »ITT: Punish those who have jobs/careers/disposable income and give freebies to those who don't want to put time and effort into unlocking things themselves.
YeahVaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
Except the only area where those who bought the skills have any advantage over those who don't is low level PVP, and then only below the level when a player could gain those leveled skills naturally.
Everywhere else, you aren't really competing with other players at low levels, so there's no advantage.
Outside of low level PVP, its pay for convenience. Pay to spend less time grinding.
So first off you're admitting it is pay to win, because it does give in game advantages, but only to low level pvp in your opnion.
Second, I'm pretty sure PVP players don't really need the DB/TG skill lines, those are basically just PVE buffs. Also Undaunted isn't for just for PVP, pretty sure you only get it through leveling PVE, same with the fighters guild and mages guild. Those skill lines also got huge dps buffs this patch (wonder why).
Sooooooo you might wanna rethink your argument there pal. It's pay to win and it's not meant to be for PVP players. It's for hardcore PVE players to not have to level up 4 guild lines in order to make a character viable for endgame trials. Can PVP benefit? Absoutely, but it's not cuz of PVP that this was introduced.
I dunno if you quite got the argument there.
1. It isnt pay to win in PVE. Like, at all. By the time you hit competitive PVE or end game content, any player who didn't buy the skill lines could have them leveled up. The only advantage PVE players get from buying them is spending less time grinding those skill lines, which is pure pay for convenience.
2. It is pay to win in PVP...for a relatively small time period below the level where a player who didn't buy them could level them. Even there, level 10 players could easily have Mages Guild and Psijic Order unlocked. Werewolf is easy to grind up for low level BGs. The two hard ones, in terms of levels, are Fighters Guild and Undaunted. Even there, they arent hard - just dolmen grind and doing the delve quests with a large group willing to share - but I'm not sure how much you'd level up from the exp.
So the advantage disappears the more you level up even in low level PVP, as players obtain those skill lines the usual way. Then by the time you get to actually competitive PVP at level 50, the advantage is completely gone, as everyone has had the chance to get those skills the normal way.
I'm not going to rethink that argument, BTW. The skill lines are pay to win in low level PVP, and I wish ZOS had required players to be level 50 in order to buy them. That would have given all players an equal timeframe to acquire those skills, whether or not they bought them.
1. If it is pay to win anywhere it is pay to win. I know you're trying really hard to say it isn't pay to win in pve but that's where the majority of your player base is and where most of the money will be coming from. Paying for less grinding time is still pay to win, the win is the convenience of not having to level. You "win" the guild tree. Pay to win doesn't mean you pay to win the game, it is again, paying for an advantage over other players. If you're paying for something that I can't afford and I have to grind it, it is pay to win.
2. It doesn't matter if the advantage goes away over time it is still pay to win by your own words. I'm not even going to address how dumb the rest of your statement is because you already admited IT IS PAY TO WIN.
3. PVE and PVP ARE ALWAYS COMPETITIVE. There is no competitive PVP at lvl 50, if you're in PVP it's competitive irregardless of level. Same with PVE. Do you really thing hardcore trial guilds aren't competing to hit first trial clears and first hard modes? When (not if, when) ZOS drops a new class what is it going to take to make it viable? You spend a few hours grinding Skyreach and buy all your skill lines and boom you're now a fully functional DPS while other people spend weeks grinding because they aren't able to just buy the skills.
4. You should rethink your argument as your argument is all i need to prove this *** is pay to win.
I...I don't disagree with you in low level PVP. As for the rest, you don't understand the difference between pay to win and pay for convenience.
1. Its not pay to win in PVE. Having a time advantage is not Pay to Win, its pay for convenience.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
Similarly, in PVE, skyshards and skill lines are pay for convenience.
By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better.
2. Again, it's pay to win. For a time. Then its not because everyone has had ample oppprtunity to get them. I already told you my solution: lock the purchase skill lines to level 50, when other players have had sufficient chance to obtain those skills if they want to grind the normal way.
3. It's still pay for convenience. You are paying to get something faster than players doing it the normal way. See exp scrolls, ESO+ sub experience, riding lessons, etc.
My qualms about PVP could be solved if ZOS locked purchased skill lines until they were leveled up normally or until level 50. Making it so every player had equal oppprtunity to unlock the skill lines in an appropriate timeframe would make them not pay to win.
1. It is pay to win in PVE. Paying for convenience is pay to win. It's a very simple concept.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
All your examples minus the crafting bag are pay to win. The only reason the crafting bag isn't is because it is part of the subscription that you get with the DLCs. If they sold the crafting bag separately for no sub it would be pay to win.
Horse riding is pay to win but probably the most minimal offender
Exp scrolls are pay to win in comparison to in game items. You're paying to not have to level provisioning to gain the best buff possible. Sorry you're wrong.
Research scrolls are pay to win. The ones you can buy in came are limited to 24 hour time reduction and you can only use 1 every 24 hours. Crown store research scrolls can take weeks at a time off and have no cool down time. This is an in game advantage in PVE and PVP for your armors and weapons both crafting and transmuting.
Sky shards are pay to win. It doesn't matter if you've earned it once, if your character can buy them all from the start after that is a GIGANTIC advantage over someone that has to go back and rerun every sky shard.
"By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better."
The win is the time saved do you really not understand that? Do you know how much time it takes to get every skyshard and every guild skill line? It's much more time than it takes to get to cp160 unless you had a guide for everything. Do you realize that if I ran all my guys, the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them and then you buy all yours that's a pay to win advantage. At this point I'm not sure if you work for ZOS or maybe english isn't your primary language but this is pretty easy to follow.
2. Again pay to win for a time is still pay to win. It doesn't matter if it's for a day, you're still paying for an advantage other players wouldn't have for that day. You can keep trying to twist it all you want but you're wrong. Imagine if I had the ability to pay for Volendrung once a day because I already have one of the achievements for it and I could just summon it in PVP once a day for 1 hour at a time. That's not pay to win right? It's to pay for the convenience of farming AP. For a time. Your logic is smart and solid.
3. This isn't even a point, you're just rehashing point 1. No, it is pay to win https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items.
Let me break this down. You're paying for downloadable content to gain and advantage over people playing, you know, the normal way before we could purchase them. This is pay to win by definition. You're just proving my points.
1 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
What advantage does paying give you? What content can someone with purchased skill lines do that someone without them can't?
You're just paying to be able to jump into endgame on a new character a few hours before someone who didn't pay for them.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »ITT: Punish those who have jobs/careers/disposable income and give freebies to those who don't want to put time and effort into unlocking things themselves.
YeahVaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
Except the only area where those who bought the skills have any advantage over those who don't is low level PVP, and then only below the level when a player could gain those leveled skills naturally.
Everywhere else, you aren't really competing with other players at low levels, so there's no advantage.
Outside of low level PVP, its pay for convenience. Pay to spend less time grinding.
So first off you're admitting it is pay to win, because it does give in game advantages, but only to low level pvp in your opnion.
Second, I'm pretty sure PVP players don't really need the DB/TG skill lines, those are basically just PVE buffs. Also Undaunted isn't for just for PVP, pretty sure you only get it through leveling PVE, same with the fighters guild and mages guild. Those skill lines also got huge dps buffs this patch (wonder why).
Sooooooo you might wanna rethink your argument there pal. It's pay to win and it's not meant to be for PVP players. It's for hardcore PVE players to not have to level up 4 guild lines in order to make a character viable for endgame trials. Can PVP benefit? Absoutely, but it's not cuz of PVP that this was introduced.
I dunno if you quite got the argument there.
1. It isnt pay to win in PVE. Like, at all. By the time you hit competitive PVE or end game content, any player who didn't buy the skill lines could have them leveled up. The only advantage PVE players get from buying them is spending less time grinding those skill lines, which is pure pay for convenience.
2. It is pay to win in PVP...for a relatively small time period below the level where a player who didn't buy them could level them. Even there, level 10 players could easily have Mages Guild and Psijic Order unlocked. Werewolf is easy to grind up for low level BGs. The two hard ones, in terms of levels, are Fighters Guild and Undaunted. Even there, they arent hard - just dolmen grind and doing the delve quests with a large group willing to share - but I'm not sure how much you'd level up from the exp.
So the advantage disappears the more you level up even in low level PVP, as players obtain those skill lines the usual way. Then by the time you get to actually competitive PVP at level 50, the advantage is completely gone, as everyone has had the chance to get those skills the normal way.
I'm not going to rethink that argument, BTW. The skill lines are pay to win in low level PVP, and I wish ZOS had required players to be level 50 in order to buy them. That would have given all players an equal timeframe to acquire those skills, whether or not they bought them.
1. If it is pay to win anywhere it is pay to win. I know you're trying really hard to say it isn't pay to win in pve but that's where the majority of your player base is and where most of the money will be coming from. Paying for less grinding time is still pay to win, the win is the convenience of not having to level. You "win" the guild tree. Pay to win doesn't mean you pay to win the game, it is again, paying for an advantage over other players. If you're paying for something that I can't afford and I have to grind it, it is pay to win.
2. It doesn't matter if the advantage goes away over time it is still pay to win by your own words. I'm not even going to address how dumb the rest of your statement is because you already admited IT IS PAY TO WIN.
3. PVE and PVP ARE ALWAYS COMPETITIVE. There is no competitive PVP at lvl 50, if you're in PVP it's competitive irregardless of level. Same with PVE. Do you really thing hardcore trial guilds aren't competing to hit first trial clears and first hard modes? When (not if, when) ZOS drops a new class what is it going to take to make it viable? You spend a few hours grinding Skyreach and buy all your skill lines and boom you're now a fully functional DPS while other people spend weeks grinding because they aren't able to just buy the skills.
4. You should rethink your argument as your argument is all i need to prove this *** is pay to win.
I...I don't disagree with you in low level PVP. As for the rest, you don't understand the difference between pay to win and pay for convenience.
1. Its not pay to win in PVE. Having a time advantage is not Pay to Win, its pay for convenience.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
Similarly, in PVE, skyshards and skill lines are pay for convenience.
By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better.
2. Again, it's pay to win. For a time. Then its not because everyone has had ample oppprtunity to get them. I already told you my solution: lock the purchase skill lines to level 50, when other players have had sufficient chance to obtain those skills if they want to grind the normal way.
3. It's still pay for convenience. You are paying to get something faster than players doing it the normal way. See exp scrolls, ESO+ sub experience, riding lessons, etc.
My qualms about PVP could be solved if ZOS locked purchased skill lines until they were leveled up normally or until level 50. Making it so every player had equal oppprtunity to unlock the skill lines in an appropriate timeframe would make them not pay to win.
1. It is pay to win in PVE. Paying for convenience is pay to win. It's a very simple concept.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
All your examples minus the crafting bag are pay to win. The only reason the crafting bag isn't is because it is part of the subscription that you get with the DLCs. If they sold the crafting bag separately for no sub it would be pay to win.
Horse riding is pay to win but probably the most minimal offender
Exp scrolls are pay to win in comparison to in game items. You're paying to not have to level provisioning to gain the best buff possible. Sorry you're wrong.
Research scrolls are pay to win. The ones you can buy in came are limited to 24 hour time reduction and you can only use 1 every 24 hours. Crown store research scrolls can take weeks at a time off and have no cool down time. This is an in game advantage in PVE and PVP for your armors and weapons both crafting and transmuting.
Sky shards are pay to win. It doesn't matter if you've earned it once, if your character can buy them all from the start after that is a GIGANTIC advantage over someone that has to go back and rerun every sky shard.
"By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better."
The win is the time saved do you really not understand that? Do you know how much time it takes to get every skyshard and every guild skill line? It's much more time than it takes to get to cp160 unless you had a guide for everything. Do you realize that if I ran all my guys, the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them and then you buy all yours that's a pay to win advantage. At this point I'm not sure if you work for ZOS or maybe english isn't your primary language but this is pretty easy to follow.
2. Again pay to win for a time is still pay to win. It doesn't matter if it's for a day, you're still paying for an advantage other players wouldn't have for that day. You can keep trying to twist it all you want but you're wrong. Imagine if I had the ability to pay for Volendrung once a day because I already have one of the achievements for it and I could just summon it in PVP once a day for 1 hour at a time. That's not pay to win right? It's to pay for the convenience of farming AP. For a time. Your logic is smart and solid.
3. This isn't even a point, you're just rehashing point 1. No, it is pay to win https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items.
Let me break this down. You're paying for downloadable content to gain and advantage over people playing, you know, the normal way before we could purchase them. This is pay to win by definition. You're just proving my points.
We have a irreconcilable difference of opinion.
You think that paying to get stuff faster but not better in Pay to Win. Paying for better stuff is also Pay to Win, of course.
I think that paying to get stuff faster is Pay for Convenience. Paying for better stuff is Pay to Win.
We aren't gonna agree, that much is clear.
So lets agree to disagree?
You have a great day!Edited by VaranisArano on August 29, 2019 3:33AM3 -
ruengdet2515✭✭✭No need to pay if you don't like it.
Pay to win is some kind of buy special item,skill very strong,unlimit,... that cant get in game play unless pay.0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »ITT: Punish those who have jobs/careers/disposable income and give freebies to those who don't want to put time and effort into unlocking things themselves.
YeahVaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
Except the only area where those who bought the skills have any advantage over those who don't is low level PVP, and then only below the level when a player could gain those leveled skills naturally.
Everywhere else, you aren't really competing with other players at low levels, so there's no advantage.
Outside of low level PVP, its pay for convenience. Pay to spend less time grinding.
So first off you're admitting it is pay to win, because it does give in game advantages, but only to low level pvp in your opnion.
Second, I'm pretty sure PVP players don't really need the DB/TG skill lines, those are basically just PVE buffs. Also Undaunted isn't for just for PVP, pretty sure you only get it through leveling PVE, same with the fighters guild and mages guild. Those skill lines also got huge dps buffs this patch (wonder why).
Sooooooo you might wanna rethink your argument there pal. It's pay to win and it's not meant to be for PVP players. It's for hardcore PVE players to not have to level up 4 guild lines in order to make a character viable for endgame trials. Can PVP benefit? Absoutely, but it's not cuz of PVP that this was introduced.
I dunno if you quite got the argument there.
1. It isnt pay to win in PVE. Like, at all. By the time you hit competitive PVE or end game content, any player who didn't buy the skill lines could have them leveled up. The only advantage PVE players get from buying them is spending less time grinding those skill lines, which is pure pay for convenience.
2. It is pay to win in PVP...for a relatively small time period below the level where a player who didn't buy them could level them. Even there, level 10 players could easily have Mages Guild and Psijic Order unlocked. Werewolf is easy to grind up for low level BGs. The two hard ones, in terms of levels, are Fighters Guild and Undaunted. Even there, they arent hard - just dolmen grind and doing the delve quests with a large group willing to share - but I'm not sure how much you'd level up from the exp.
So the advantage disappears the more you level up even in low level PVP, as players obtain those skill lines the usual way. Then by the time you get to actually competitive PVP at level 50, the advantage is completely gone, as everyone has had the chance to get those skills the normal way.
I'm not going to rethink that argument, BTW. The skill lines are pay to win in low level PVP, and I wish ZOS had required players to be level 50 in order to buy them. That would have given all players an equal timeframe to acquire those skills, whether or not they bought them.
1. If it is pay to win anywhere it is pay to win. I know you're trying really hard to say it isn't pay to win in pve but that's where the majority of your player base is and where most of the money will be coming from. Paying for less grinding time is still pay to win, the win is the convenience of not having to level. You "win" the guild tree. Pay to win doesn't mean you pay to win the game, it is again, paying for an advantage over other players. If you're paying for something that I can't afford and I have to grind it, it is pay to win.
2. It doesn't matter if the advantage goes away over time it is still pay to win by your own words. I'm not even going to address how dumb the rest of your statement is because you already admited IT IS PAY TO WIN.
3. PVE and PVP ARE ALWAYS COMPETITIVE. There is no competitive PVP at lvl 50, if you're in PVP it's competitive irregardless of level. Same with PVE. Do you really thing hardcore trial guilds aren't competing to hit first trial clears and first hard modes? When (not if, when) ZOS drops a new class what is it going to take to make it viable? You spend a few hours grinding Skyreach and buy all your skill lines and boom you're now a fully functional DPS while other people spend weeks grinding because they aren't able to just buy the skills.
4. You should rethink your argument as your argument is all i need to prove this *** is pay to win.
I...I don't disagree with you in low level PVP. As for the rest, you don't understand the difference between pay to win and pay for convenience.
1. Its not pay to win in PVE. Having a time advantage is not Pay to Win, its pay for convenience.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
Similarly, in PVE, skyshards and skill lines are pay for convenience.
By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better.
2. Again, it's pay to win. For a time. Then its not because everyone has had ample oppprtunity to get them. I already told you my solution: lock the purchase skill lines to level 50, when other players have had sufficient chance to obtain those skills if they want to grind the normal way.
3. It's still pay for convenience. You are paying to get something faster than players doing it the normal way. See exp scrolls, ESO+ sub experience, riding lessons, etc.
My qualms about PVP could be solved if ZOS locked purchased skill lines until they were leveled up normally or until level 50. Making it so every player had equal oppprtunity to unlock the skill lines in an appropriate timeframe would make them not pay to win.
1. It is pay to win in PVE. Paying for convenience is pay to win. It's a very simple concept.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
All your examples minus the crafting bag are pay to win. The only reason the crafting bag isn't is because it is part of the subscription that you get with the DLCs. If they sold the crafting bag separately for no sub it would be pay to win.
Horse riding is pay to win but probably the most minimal offender
Exp scrolls are pay to win in comparison to in game items. You're paying to not have to level provisioning to gain the best buff possible. Sorry you're wrong.
Research scrolls are pay to win. The ones you can buy in came are limited to 24 hour time reduction and you can only use 1 every 24 hours. Crown store research scrolls can take weeks at a time off and have no cool down time. This is an in game advantage in PVE and PVP for your armors and weapons both crafting and transmuting.
Sky shards are pay to win. It doesn't matter if you've earned it once, if your character can buy them all from the start after that is a GIGANTIC advantage over someone that has to go back and rerun every sky shard.
"By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better."
The win is the time saved do you really not understand that? Do you know how much time it takes to get every skyshard and every guild skill line? It's much more time than it takes to get to cp160 unless you had a guide for everything. Do you realize that if I ran all my guys, the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them and then you buy all yours that's a pay to win advantage. At this point I'm not sure if you work for ZOS or maybe english isn't your primary language but this is pretty easy to follow.
2. Again pay to win for a time is still pay to win. It doesn't matter if it's for a day, you're still paying for an advantage other players wouldn't have for that day. You can keep trying to twist it all you want but you're wrong. Imagine if I had the ability to pay for Volendrung once a day because I already have one of the achievements for it and I could just summon it in PVP once a day for 1 hour at a time. That's not pay to win right? It's to pay for the convenience of farming AP. For a time. Your logic is smart and solid.
3. This isn't even a point, you're just rehashing point 1. No, it is pay to win https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items.
Let me break this down. You're paying for downloadable content to gain and advantage over people playing, you know, the normal way before we could purchase them. This is pay to win by definition. You're just proving my points.
We have a irreconcilable difference of opinion.
You think that paying to get stuff faster but not better in Pay to Win. Paying for better stuff is also Pay to Win, of course.
I think that paying to get stuff faster is Pay for Convenience. Paying for better stuff is Pay to Win.
We aren't gonna agree, that much is clear.
So lets agree to disagree?
You have a great day!
No, we're not playing the opinion game. It is by definition pay to win and you are wrong.
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers
No. I don't think that. I think paying for non cosmetics is pay to win. You can pay for better or you can pay for faster but you're still paying for an advantage, which again is the definition of p2w.
You have a great day though.0 -
Blacknight841✭✭✭✭✭This isn't Pay to Win ...
... well because we cannot actually win!....
... The only winner here is ZOS when you pay.1 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »ITT: Punish those who have jobs/careers/disposable income and give freebies to those who don't want to put time and effort into unlocking things themselves.
YeahVaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
Except the only area where those who bought the skills have any advantage over those who don't is low level PVP, and then only below the level when a player could gain those leveled skills naturally.
Everywhere else, you aren't really competing with other players at low levels, so there's no advantage.
Outside of low level PVP, its pay for convenience. Pay to spend less time grinding.
So first off you're admitting it is pay to win, because it does give in game advantages, but only to low level pvp in your opnion.
Second, I'm pretty sure PVP players don't really need the DB/TG skill lines, those are basically just PVE buffs. Also Undaunted isn't for just for PVP, pretty sure you only get it through leveling PVE, same with the fighters guild and mages guild. Those skill lines also got huge dps buffs this patch (wonder why).
Sooooooo you might wanna rethink your argument there pal. It's pay to win and it's not meant to be for PVP players. It's for hardcore PVE players to not have to level up 4 guild lines in order to make a character viable for endgame trials. Can PVP benefit? Absoutely, but it's not cuz of PVP that this was introduced.
I dunno if you quite got the argument there.
1. It isnt pay to win in PVE. Like, at all. By the time you hit competitive PVE or end game content, any player who didn't buy the skill lines could have them leveled up. The only advantage PVE players get from buying them is spending less time grinding those skill lines, which is pure pay for convenience.
2. It is pay to win in PVP...for a relatively small time period below the level where a player who didn't buy them could level them. Even there, level 10 players could easily have Mages Guild and Psijic Order unlocked. Werewolf is easy to grind up for low level BGs. The two hard ones, in terms of levels, are Fighters Guild and Undaunted. Even there, they arent hard - just dolmen grind and doing the delve quests with a large group willing to share - but I'm not sure how much you'd level up from the exp.
So the advantage disappears the more you level up even in low level PVP, as players obtain those skill lines the usual way. Then by the time you get to actually competitive PVP at level 50, the advantage is completely gone, as everyone has had the chance to get those skills the normal way.
I'm not going to rethink that argument, BTW. The skill lines are pay to win in low level PVP, and I wish ZOS had required players to be level 50 in order to buy them. That would have given all players an equal timeframe to acquire those skills, whether or not they bought them.
1. If it is pay to win anywhere it is pay to win. I know you're trying really hard to say it isn't pay to win in pve but that's where the majority of your player base is and where most of the money will be coming from. Paying for less grinding time is still pay to win, the win is the convenience of not having to level. You "win" the guild tree. Pay to win doesn't mean you pay to win the game, it is again, paying for an advantage over other players. If you're paying for something that I can't afford and I have to grind it, it is pay to win.
2. It doesn't matter if the advantage goes away over time it is still pay to win by your own words. I'm not even going to address how dumb the rest of your statement is because you already admited IT IS PAY TO WIN.
3. PVE and PVP ARE ALWAYS COMPETITIVE. There is no competitive PVP at lvl 50, if you're in PVP it's competitive irregardless of level. Same with PVE. Do you really thing hardcore trial guilds aren't competing to hit first trial clears and first hard modes? When (not if, when) ZOS drops a new class what is it going to take to make it viable? You spend a few hours grinding Skyreach and buy all your skill lines and boom you're now a fully functional DPS while other people spend weeks grinding because they aren't able to just buy the skills.
4. You should rethink your argument as your argument is all i need to prove this *** is pay to win.
I...I don't disagree with you in low level PVP. As for the rest, you don't understand the difference between pay to win and pay for convenience.
1. Its not pay to win in PVE. Having a time advantage is not Pay to Win, its pay for convenience.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
Similarly, in PVE, skyshards and skill lines are pay for convenience.
By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better.
2. Again, it's pay to win. For a time. Then its not because everyone has had ample oppprtunity to get them. I already told you my solution: lock the purchase skill lines to level 50, when other players have had sufficient chance to obtain those skills if they want to grind the normal way.
3. It's still pay for convenience. You are paying to get something faster than players doing it the normal way. See exp scrolls, ESO+ sub experience, riding lessons, etc.
My qualms about PVP could be solved if ZOS locked purchased skill lines until they were leveled up normally or until level 50. Making it so every player had equal oppprtunity to unlock the skill lines in an appropriate timeframe would make them not pay to win.
1. It is pay to win in PVE. Paying for convenience is pay to win. It's a very simple concept.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
All your examples minus the crafting bag are pay to win. The only reason the crafting bag isn't is because it is part of the subscription that you get with the DLCs. If they sold the crafting bag separately for no sub it would be pay to win.
Horse riding is pay to win but probably the most minimal offender
Exp scrolls are pay to win in comparison to in game items. You're paying to not have to level provisioning to gain the best buff possible. Sorry you're wrong.
Research scrolls are pay to win. The ones you can buy in came are limited to 24 hour time reduction and you can only use 1 every 24 hours. Crown store research scrolls can take weeks at a time off and have no cool down time. This is an in game advantage in PVE and PVP for your armors and weapons both crafting and transmuting.
Sky shards are pay to win. It doesn't matter if you've earned it once, if your character can buy them all from the start after that is a GIGANTIC advantage over someone that has to go back and rerun every sky shard.
"By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better."
The win is the time saved do you really not understand that? Do you know how much time it takes to get every skyshard and every guild skill line? It's much more time than it takes to get to cp160 unless you had a guide for everything. Do you realize that if I ran all my guys, the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them and then you buy all yours that's a pay to win advantage. At this point I'm not sure if you work for ZOS or maybe english isn't your primary language but this is pretty easy to follow.
2. Again pay to win for a time is still pay to win. It doesn't matter if it's for a day, you're still paying for an advantage other players wouldn't have for that day. You can keep trying to twist it all you want but you're wrong. Imagine if I had the ability to pay for Volendrung once a day because I already have one of the achievements for it and I could just summon it in PVP once a day for 1 hour at a time. That's not pay to win right? It's to pay for the convenience of farming AP. For a time. Your logic is smart and solid.
3. This isn't even a point, you're just rehashing point 1. No, it is pay to win https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items.
Let me break this down. You're paying for downloadable content to gain and advantage over people playing, you know, the normal way before we could purchase them. This is pay to win by definition. You're just proving my points.
We have a irreconcilable difference of opinion.
You think that paying to get stuff faster but not better in Pay to Win. Paying for better stuff is also Pay to Win, of course.
I think that paying to get stuff faster is Pay for Convenience. Paying for better stuff is Pay to Win.
We aren't gonna agree, that much is clear.
So lets agree to disagree?
You have a great day!
No, we're not playing the opinion game. It is by definition pay to win and you are wrong.
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers
No. I don't think that. I think paying for non cosmetics is pay to win. You can pay for better or you can pay for faster but you're still paying for an advantage, which again is the definition of p2w.
You have a great day though.
You can copy and paste that quote as many times as you want. It doesn't make you right. It's an unsourced statement made by a user on Wikipedia. I could log in and change it right now if I wanted to.
There is no "academic" definition of P2W.Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 29, 2019 4:09AM4 -
sevomd69✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »ITT: Punish those who have jobs/careers/disposable income and give freebies to those who don't want to put time and effort into unlocking things themselves.
YeahVaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
Except the only area where those who bought the skills have any advantage over those who don't is low level PVP, and then only below the level when a player could gain those leveled skills naturally.
Everywhere else, you aren't really competing with other players at low levels, so there's no advantage.
Outside of low level PVP, its pay for convenience. Pay to spend less time grinding.
So first off you're admitting it is pay to win, because it does give in game advantages, but only to low level pvp in your opnion.
Second, I'm pretty sure PVP players don't really need the DB/TG skill lines, those are basically just PVE buffs. Also Undaunted isn't for just for PVP, pretty sure you only get it through leveling PVE, same with the fighters guild and mages guild. Those skill lines also got huge dps buffs this patch (wonder why).
Sooooooo you might wanna rethink your argument there pal. It's pay to win and it's not meant to be for PVP players. It's for hardcore PVE players to not have to level up 4 guild lines in order to make a character viable for endgame trials. Can PVP benefit? Absoutely, but it's not cuz of PVP that this was introduced.
I dunno if you quite got the argument there.
1. It isnt pay to win in PVE. Like, at all. By the time you hit competitive PVE or end game content, any player who didn't buy the skill lines could have them leveled up. The only advantage PVE players get from buying them is spending less time grinding those skill lines, which is pure pay for convenience.
2. It is pay to win in PVP...for a relatively small time period below the level where a player who didn't buy them could level them. Even there, level 10 players could easily have Mages Guild and Psijic Order unlocked. Werewolf is easy to grind up for low level BGs. The two hard ones, in terms of levels, are Fighters Guild and Undaunted. Even there, they arent hard - just dolmen grind and doing the delve quests with a large group willing to share - but I'm not sure how much you'd level up from the exp.
So the advantage disappears the more you level up even in low level PVP, as players obtain those skill lines the usual way. Then by the time you get to actually competitive PVP at level 50, the advantage is completely gone, as everyone has had the chance to get those skills the normal way.
I'm not going to rethink that argument, BTW. The skill lines are pay to win in low level PVP, and I wish ZOS had required players to be level 50 in order to buy them. That would have given all players an equal timeframe to acquire those skills, whether or not they bought them.
1. If it is pay to win anywhere it is pay to win. I know you're trying really hard to say it isn't pay to win in pve but that's where the majority of your player base is and where most of the money will be coming from. Paying for less grinding time is still pay to win, the win is the convenience of not having to level. You "win" the guild tree. Pay to win doesn't mean you pay to win the game, it is again, paying for an advantage over other players. If you're paying for something that I can't afford and I have to grind it, it is pay to win.
2. It doesn't matter if the advantage goes away over time it is still pay to win by your own words. I'm not even going to address how dumb the rest of your statement is because you already admited IT IS PAY TO WIN.
3. PVE and PVP ARE ALWAYS COMPETITIVE. There is no competitive PVP at lvl 50, if you're in PVP it's competitive irregardless of level. Same with PVE. Do you really thing hardcore trial guilds aren't competing to hit first trial clears and first hard modes? When (not if, when) ZOS drops a new class what is it going to take to make it viable? You spend a few hours grinding Skyreach and buy all your skill lines and boom you're now a fully functional DPS while other people spend weeks grinding because they aren't able to just buy the skills.
4. You should rethink your argument as your argument is all i need to prove this *** is pay to win.
I...I don't disagree with you in low level PVP. As for the rest, you don't understand the difference between pay to win and pay for convenience.
1. Its not pay to win in PVE. Having a time advantage is not Pay to Win, its pay for convenience.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
Similarly, in PVE, skyshards and skill lines are pay for convenience.
By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better.
2. Again, it's pay to win. For a time. Then its not because everyone has had ample oppprtunity to get them. I already told you my solution: lock the purchase skill lines to level 50, when other players have had sufficient chance to obtain those skills if they want to grind the normal way.
3. It's still pay for convenience. You are paying to get something faster than players doing it the normal way. See exp scrolls, ESO+ sub experience, riding lessons, etc.
My qualms about PVP could be solved if ZOS locked purchased skill lines until they were leveled up normally or until level 50. Making it so every player had equal oppprtunity to unlock the skill lines in an appropriate timeframe would make them not pay to win.
1. It is pay to win in PVE. Paying for convenience is pay to win. It's a very simple concept.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
All your examples minus the crafting bag are pay to win. The only reason the crafting bag isn't is because it is part of the subscription that you get with the DLCs. If they sold the crafting bag separately for no sub it would be pay to win.
Horse riding is pay to win but probably the most minimal offender
Exp scrolls are pay to win in comparison to in game items. You're paying to not have to level provisioning to gain the best buff possible. Sorry you're wrong.
Research scrolls are pay to win. The ones you can buy in came are limited to 24 hour time reduction and you can only use 1 every 24 hours. Crown store research scrolls can take weeks at a time off and have no cool down time. This is an in game advantage in PVE and PVP for your armors and weapons both crafting and transmuting.
Sky shards are pay to win. It doesn't matter if you've earned it once, if your character can buy them all from the start after that is a GIGANTIC advantage over someone that has to go back and rerun every sky shard.
"By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better."
The win is the time saved do you really not understand that? Do you know how much time it takes to get every skyshard and every guild skill line? It's much more time than it takes to get to cp160 unless you had a guide for everything. Do you realize that if I ran all my guys, the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them and then you buy all yours that's a pay to win advantage. At this point I'm not sure if you work for ZOS or maybe english isn't your primary language but this is pretty easy to follow.
2. Again pay to win for a time is still pay to win. It doesn't matter if it's for a day, you're still paying for an advantage other players wouldn't have for that day. You can keep trying to twist it all you want but you're wrong. Imagine if I had the ability to pay for Volendrung once a day because I already have one of the achievements for it and I could just summon it in PVP once a day for 1 hour at a time. That's not pay to win right? It's to pay for the convenience of farming AP. For a time. Your logic is smart and solid.
3. This isn't even a point, you're just rehashing point 1. No, it is pay to win https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items.
Let me break this down. You're paying for downloadable content to gain and advantage over people playing, you know, the normal way before we could purchase them. This is pay to win by definition. You're just proving my points.
We have a irreconcilable difference of opinion.
You think that paying to get stuff faster but not better in Pay to Win. Paying for better stuff is also Pay to Win, of course.
I think that paying to get stuff faster is Pay for Convenience. Paying for better stuff is Pay to Win.
We aren't gonna agree, that much is clear.
So lets agree to disagree?
You have a great day!
No, we're not playing the opinion game. It is by definition pay to win and you are wrong.
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers
No. I don't think that. I think paying for non cosmetics is pay to win. You can pay for better or you can pay for faster but you're still paying for an advantage, which again is the definition of p2w.
You have a great day though.
No... You are wrong...lol...see how that works...obstinacy is a two way street...
Also good job using a definition from Wiki to bolster your OPINION...4 -
Ermiq✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage....
...that you can only get with cash.
i.e, when people who pay $ gain an advantage that people who don't pay $ can't get.
Like all those wonderful Eastern open-pvp games that sell things like better healing potions/BIS gear/faster mounts/etc in their cash shops. Oh, and item enchantment systems where you need to get everything to +14 in order to compete, but you need cash shop consumables to have more than a 1% chance of success at the enchanting. With your gear being destroyed if you fail. That's one's a big p2w.
And what's the real difference between enchanting to +14 faster and getting skills unlocked faster?
- Don't want to farm weapons and enchantments again and again? (Don't want to farm skill lines again and again?)
- If you don't pay for guaranteed chance to enchant a weapon, you still can enchant it but it will take more time. (If you don't want to pay for a skill line, you still can get it, but it will take more time.)
I mean, come on, wake up. Although it doesn't feel THAT much of a pay2win, however it utilizes exactly the same base mechanics of pay2win stuff.One of the two of us definitely has gone mad. It only remains to define whether this one is the whole world or just me.
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
Sick&tired of being kicked off from your house when you complete a dungeon? ComingBackHome addon is what you need!
Me is russian little bad in english :b0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »ITT: Punish those who have jobs/careers/disposable income and give freebies to those who don't want to put time and effort into unlocking things themselves.
YeahVaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Pay to win is paying for an advantage. I don't think you understand the definition. It doesn't matter if you've already done it once. If you're PAYING so you dont have to do it again that is pay to win.
"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free."
It is a significant advantage for people with enough $$$ to only have to grind up one character and then paying for the rest of their skill lines to be maxed out. Not everyone is able to afford these paid advantages and the skills were also buffed so it also will affect in game.
Except the only area where those who bought the skills have any advantage over those who don't is low level PVP, and then only below the level when a player could gain those leveled skills naturally.
Everywhere else, you aren't really competing with other players at low levels, so there's no advantage.
Outside of low level PVP, its pay for convenience. Pay to spend less time grinding.
So first off you're admitting it is pay to win, because it does give in game advantages, but only to low level pvp in your opnion.
Second, I'm pretty sure PVP players don't really need the DB/TG skill lines, those are basically just PVE buffs. Also Undaunted isn't for just for PVP, pretty sure you only get it through leveling PVE, same with the fighters guild and mages guild. Those skill lines also got huge dps buffs this patch (wonder why).
Sooooooo you might wanna rethink your argument there pal. It's pay to win and it's not meant to be for PVP players. It's for hardcore PVE players to not have to level up 4 guild lines in order to make a character viable for endgame trials. Can PVP benefit? Absoutely, but it's not cuz of PVP that this was introduced.
I dunno if you quite got the argument there.
1. It isnt pay to win in PVE. Like, at all. By the time you hit competitive PVE or end game content, any player who didn't buy the skill lines could have them leveled up. The only advantage PVE players get from buying them is spending less time grinding those skill lines, which is pure pay for convenience.
2. It is pay to win in PVP...for a relatively small time period below the level where a player who didn't buy them could level them. Even there, level 10 players could easily have Mages Guild and Psijic Order unlocked. Werewolf is easy to grind up for low level BGs. The two hard ones, in terms of levels, are Fighters Guild and Undaunted. Even there, they arent hard - just dolmen grind and doing the delve quests with a large group willing to share - but I'm not sure how much you'd level up from the exp.
So the advantage disappears the more you level up even in low level PVP, as players obtain those skill lines the usual way. Then by the time you get to actually competitive PVP at level 50, the advantage is completely gone, as everyone has had the chance to get those skills the normal way.
I'm not going to rethink that argument, BTW. The skill lines are pay to win in low level PVP, and I wish ZOS had required players to be level 50 in order to buy them. That would have given all players an equal timeframe to acquire those skills, whether or not they bought them.
1. If it is pay to win anywhere it is pay to win. I know you're trying really hard to say it isn't pay to win in pve but that's where the majority of your player base is and where most of the money will be coming from. Paying for less grinding time is still pay to win, the win is the convenience of not having to level. You "win" the guild tree. Pay to win doesn't mean you pay to win the game, it is again, paying for an advantage over other players. If you're paying for something that I can't afford and I have to grind it, it is pay to win.
2. It doesn't matter if the advantage goes away over time it is still pay to win by your own words. I'm not even going to address how dumb the rest of your statement is because you already admited IT IS PAY TO WIN.
3. PVE and PVP ARE ALWAYS COMPETITIVE. There is no competitive PVP at lvl 50, if you're in PVP it's competitive irregardless of level. Same with PVE. Do you really thing hardcore trial guilds aren't competing to hit first trial clears and first hard modes? When (not if, when) ZOS drops a new class what is it going to take to make it viable? You spend a few hours grinding Skyreach and buy all your skill lines and boom you're now a fully functional DPS while other people spend weeks grinding because they aren't able to just buy the skills.
4. You should rethink your argument as your argument is all i need to prove this *** is pay to win.
I...I don't disagree with you in low level PVP. As for the rest, you don't understand the difference between pay to win and pay for convenience.
1. Its not pay to win in PVE. Having a time advantage is not Pay to Win, its pay for convenience.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
Similarly, in PVE, skyshards and skill lines are pay for convenience.
By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better.
2. Again, it's pay to win. For a time. Then its not because everyone has had ample oppprtunity to get them. I already told you my solution: lock the purchase skill lines to level 50, when other players have had sufficient chance to obtain those skills if they want to grind the normal way.
3. It's still pay for convenience. You are paying to get something faster than players doing it the normal way. See exp scrolls, ESO+ sub experience, riding lessons, etc.
My qualms about PVP could be solved if ZOS locked purchased skill lines until they were leveled up normally or until level 50. Making it so every player had equal oppprtunity to unlock the skill lines in an appropriate timeframe would make them not pay to win.
1. It is pay to win in PVE. Paying for convenience is pay to win. It's a very simple concept.
Consider the other examples of pay for convenience items: riding lessons, Craft Bag, exp scrolls, and research scrolls (heck, the whole ESO+ sub benefits). All of those allow players to buy something faster than other players, but do not confer any advantage that players cannot obtain in the normal manner.
All your examples minus the crafting bag are pay to win. The only reason the crafting bag isn't is because it is part of the subscription that you get with the DLCs. If they sold the crafting bag separately for no sub it would be pay to win.
Horse riding is pay to win but probably the most minimal offender
Exp scrolls are pay to win in comparison to in game items. You're paying to not have to level provisioning to gain the best buff possible. Sorry you're wrong.
Research scrolls are pay to win. The ones you can buy in came are limited to 24 hour time reduction and you can only use 1 every 24 hours. Crown store research scrolls can take weeks at a time off and have no cool down time. This is an in game advantage in PVE and PVP for your armors and weapons both crafting and transmuting.
Sky shards are pay to win. It doesn't matter if you've earned it once, if your character can buy them all from the start after that is a GIGANTIC advantage over someone that has to go back and rerun every sky shard.
"By the time you get to level 50/CP 160, the minimum you'll be doing end game content, players have had ample time to get those skill lines and skyshards the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them? So there's nothing to be won. Its faster, but no better."
The win is the time saved do you really not understand that? Do you know how much time it takes to get every skyshard and every guild skill line? It's much more time than it takes to get to cp160 unless you had a guide for everything. Do you realize that if I ran all my guys, the normal way. You know, like they did before we could purchase them and then you buy all yours that's a pay to win advantage. At this point I'm not sure if you work for ZOS or maybe english isn't your primary language but this is pretty easy to follow.
2. Again pay to win for a time is still pay to win. It doesn't matter if it's for a day, you're still paying for an advantage other players wouldn't have for that day. You can keep trying to twist it all you want but you're wrong. Imagine if I had the ability to pay for Volendrung once a day because I already have one of the achievements for it and I could just summon it in PVP once a day for 1 hour at a time. That's not pay to win right? It's to pay for the convenience of farming AP. For a time. Your logic is smart and solid.
3. This isn't even a point, you're just rehashing point 1. No, it is pay to win https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items.
Let me break this down. You're paying for downloadable content to gain and advantage over people playing, you know, the normal way before we could purchase them. This is pay to win by definition. You're just proving my points.
We have a irreconcilable difference of opinion.
You think that paying to get stuff faster but not better in Pay to Win. Paying for better stuff is also Pay to Win, of course.
I think that paying to get stuff faster is Pay for Convenience. Paying for better stuff is Pay to Win.
We aren't gonna agree, that much is clear.
So lets agree to disagree?
You have a great day!
No, we're not playing the opinion game. It is by definition pay to win and you are wrong.
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers
No. I don't think that. I think paying for non cosmetics is pay to win. You can pay for better or you can pay for faster but you're still paying for an advantage, which again is the definition of p2w.
You have a great day though.
You can copy and paste that quote as many times as you want. It doesn't make you right. It's an unsourced statement made by a user on Wikipedia. I could log in and change it right now if I wanted to.
There is no "academic" definition of P2W.
You can keep denying reality, it doesn't make you right.
It's the best consensus definition I could find. Sorry, I forgot this was college and I need to source everything with bibliography in order for person that keeps jumping back and forth between it's only pay to win a little (but only for like a day or an hour or ya know not long at all) and it's not pay to win. Tell ya what, maybe if the best your argument can boil down to is "I can edit that in my favor" you might just wanna bow out gracefully. I mean if you can do that why can't I edit it to say "ESO crown store is pay to win" and just end the conversation right there.
I'm sure tobacco companies couldn't find "academic" studies that their cigarettes cause cancer. It's the same thing, why would the ESRB and other gaming related organizations put out an academic definition of something that makes them look terrible? They fund all these companies, why would they pay for negative PR?1
This discussion has been closed.