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We believe the werewolf is in a relatively good state balance-wise at the moment
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Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »The one place that werewolf has been consistently powerful in comparison to other builds is low-level Battlegrounds.
The problem is that its hard to tell how much of that is the Werewolf itself, and how much of that is the experience of the PVPers who grind up WW at low levels so they can use it in BGs. Like much of PVP, I'm sure a WW in the hands of a newbie isnt going to be anything to wrote home about.
It wasn't just lowbie PvP, WW overperformed in nonCP PvP scenarios because of how easy it was to throw on Wolfhunter sets, light attack targets to stack em with bleeds, and fear/defile them while running away and healing relatively fast because the WW stacked into Health which boosted their healing attributes.
I'm not a fan of WWs at all, but they were relatively balanced once they standardized how their DoTs worked, and only needed minor tuning beyond that.
Werewolf performs significantly worse in NO-CP compared to CP due to some of the CP passives you get from certain blue trees (speaking strictly of solo pvp)
And when you mention "wolfhunter sets" I'm going to assume you talk about bloodmoon, which btw, is a horrible PvP set for werewolf (and don't link that low mmr BG video of fengrush getting carried by two healers in a BG while running bloodmoon on a ww, that game is a horrible example, and only proves the point that ww is a "pug-stomper")
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AlcastClass Representative@Darcwolf
The moment you linked alcast as a reference you lost most credibility you might have had left.......
Is there a problem with my pve build?FenrisWolf1136 wrote: »Unless something changed overnight it sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. Have you tried Alcasts "claws" werewolf build? I can reliably pull 35k+ dps easy in any pug dungeon group, and 50k+ in a good trial group.
Let me look at some of your complaints
"They are the lowest stamina PVE DPS.
They are the worst stamina solo open world PVP build."
I can't comment much on lowest stamina pve dps, but 90% of the time I out DPS others in dungeons, so I have a hard time believing that.
Solo open world I have literally no problem killing people, the only problem is loosing werewolf while roaming, that does suck.
"They are incapable of reliably tanking because weapon passives do not apply, and because their gap closer is not considered a "charge" for the tormentor set. Even if they could hold taunt, they have precious little utility to offer, barring an aoe root (that costs your block resource) and a fracture that only now works on bosses, but also doesn't apply breach."
The only problem werewolf has with tanking is a lack of a taunt. I'm a WW NB medium armor and have pretty much no issue tanking things. With the change that allows you to keep werewolf time by attacking I have no issues with this at all. Only time I haven't tried this is in a trial, which I wouldn't want to, because I'm not a tank. But I regularly step up in dungeons and tank if the real tank goes down, or on world bosses.
Also a build like this is great for VMA
https://alcasthq.com/eso-solo-stamina-werewolf-build-pve/
They are one of the lowest of the stam dps, most other stam classes can pull 80k - 100k. Highest I've pulled on werewolf is 75k average on a sorc orc. Plus classes are not limited by a timer, lack of range, and group buffs.
They are not designed to be tanks, they have a good bit of resistances but agreed that they don't have the skills to back that up.
While werewolf in solo play is pretty nice, you should bring one into a vet dlc trial. The crags are easy enough to get through. 50k+ won't get you into most dlc vet trials progression guilds. One of mine requires 80k+ min for stam to get core runs. Most of those guilds see werewolf and you get shot down before getting a word further. (Not all, but I've been turned down for just being a werewolf more times than I've been accepted).
The claws setup from alcast isn't something i would recommend to people looking to pull some higher dps. Isn't bad for learning vma, but after learning it, a regular build works way better. Sets to use are bloodmoon, relequen, and molag kena. With the right cp setup and the shadow mundus, i pull 70k average with the berserker morph. (My stam dragonknight werewolf).
These are the exact sets that are used in the Claws Setup?
I feel like people are misunderstanding the two builds here, the Claws build is meant for optimized damage in Dungeons, whereas the Solo Werewolf build is made for high survival solo play with ease of access in terms of gear.
If you guys have any feedback in terms of how to improve the setups, I will gladly implement it.https://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
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mague✭✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »
They are good at being werewolves
Its a nice template of dot's, direct damage, cc, gap closer and a heal. Huge mitigation, stamina and sustain buff. An average stam build is able to do things he cant without WW. Like certain overland bosses or dungeon bosses.
They are maybe not in a state to compete in PvE and PvP top tier endgame. But they are not a class and it is arguable if they belong into top tier endgame.Edited by mague on August 27, 2019 6:16AM1 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »
They are good at being werewolves Its a nice template of dot's, direct damage, cc, gap closer and a heal. Huge mitigation, stamina and sustain buff. An average stam build is able to do things he cant without WW. Like certain overland bosses or dungeon bosses.
Wear 5 fort brass instead of 5 hunding's rage and you have more survivability than a werewolf gives you without relying on a dot based hot and a magicka hp based heal. Solo is the one thing I will absolutely stand up and flex my knowledge on, and werewolf is absolutely no better than a fort brass build (ESPECIALLY if they have in house major resists like nightblade, templar, or sorc).They are maybe not in a state to compete in PvE and PvP top tier endgame. But they are not a class and it is arguable if they belong into top tier endgame.
They do nothing better than anything else. Believing they shouldn't is fine, I just disagree. And again, hopefully this isn't ZOS' official answer.Edited by DocFrost72 on August 27, 2019 7:05AM1 -
Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I still believe one reason they were hit so hard was low level BG's where they were easily over powering others.1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I still believe one reason they were hit so hard was low level BG's where they were easily over powering others.
WW in low level BGs were only strong in premade groups. And in premade groups - everything is OP.
Now it will actually be worse, as low level BGs (and low level pvp in general) is P2W as you can literally buy the whole, fully leveld guild skill lines and have downbreaker at level 3 lol...
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perditioner✭✭✭How can werewolf possibly be in a good place balance wise when one morph is never used?6
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FenrisWolf1136✭✭✭@Darcwolf
The moment you linked alcast as a reference you lost most credibility you might have had left.......
Is there a problem with my pve build?FenrisWolf1136 wrote: »Unless something changed overnight it sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. Have you tried Alcasts "claws" werewolf build? I can reliably pull 35k+ dps easy in any pug dungeon group, and 50k+ in a good trial group.
Let me look at some of your complaints
"They are the lowest stamina PVE DPS.
They are the worst stamina solo open world PVP build."
I can't comment much on lowest stamina pve dps, but 90% of the time I out DPS others in dungeons, so I have a hard time believing that.
Solo open world I have literally no problem killing people, the only problem is loosing werewolf while roaming, that does suck.
"They are incapable of reliably tanking because weapon passives do not apply, and because their gap closer is not considered a "charge" for the tormentor set. Even if they could hold taunt, they have precious little utility to offer, barring an aoe root (that costs your block resource) and a fracture that only now works on bosses, but also doesn't apply breach."
The only problem werewolf has with tanking is a lack of a taunt. I'm a WW NB medium armor and have pretty much no issue tanking things. With the change that allows you to keep werewolf time by attacking I have no issues with this at all. Only time I haven't tried this is in a trial, which I wouldn't want to, because I'm not a tank. But I regularly step up in dungeons and tank if the real tank goes down, or on world bosses.
Also a build like this is great for VMA
https://alcasthq.com/eso-solo-stamina-werewolf-build-pve/
They are one of the lowest of the stam dps, most other stam classes can pull 80k - 100k. Highest I've pulled on werewolf is 75k average on a sorc orc. Plus classes are not limited by a timer, lack of range, and group buffs.
They are not designed to be tanks, they have a good bit of resistances but agreed that they don't have the skills to back that up.
While werewolf in solo play is pretty nice, you should bring one into a vet dlc trial. The crags are easy enough to get through. 50k+ won't get you into most dlc vet trials progression guilds. One of mine requires 80k+ min for stam to get core runs. Most of those guilds see werewolf and you get shot down before getting a word further. (Not all, but I've been turned down for just being a werewolf more times than I've been accepted).
The claws setup from alcast isn't something i would recommend to people looking to pull some higher dps. Isn't bad for learning vma, but after learning it, a regular build works way better. Sets to use are bloodmoon, relequen, and molag kena. With the right cp setup and the shadow mundus, i pull 70k average with the berserker morph. (My stam dragonknight werewolf).
These are the exact sets that are used in the Claws Setup?
I feel like people are misunderstanding the two builds here, the Claws build is meant for optimized damage in Dungeons, whereas the Solo Werewolf build is made for high survival solo play with ease of access in terms of gear.
If you guys have any feedback in terms of how to improve the setups, I will gladly implement it.
Ah, my mistake. I was looking at the solo build and missed the claws build. Claws build looks better set wise but i think blue cp could use some tweaking. I can message later and possibly put up a video of a setup that many of my guild run.
Edited by FenrisWolf1136 on August 27, 2019 2:56PMProgrammer of FenrisBot for discord.
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Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The magicka cost to the burst heal is way too high for a stamina build. Can hit it 2x and you're done.
Mag characters don't use werewolf.
This is my biggest concern for my girl now that the patch has dropped. I played her before the patch dropped specifically so I wouldn't have to deal with this. Well, that and she's getting slapped really hard with the AoE reductions too. I don't think she'll be able to solo world bosses anymore, which really sucks.3 -
SosRuvaak✭✭✭✭✭The magicka cost to the burst heal is way too high for a stamina build. Can hit it 2x and you're done.
Mag characters don't use werewolf.
This is my biggest concern for my girl now that the patch has dropped. I played her before the patch dropped specifically so I wouldn't have to deal with this. Well, that and she's getting slapped really hard with the AoE reductions too. I don't think she'll be able to solo world bosses anymore, which really sucks.
the heal nerf alone has made solo'ing anything in ww near impossible.For the Pact!
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Lusty Argonian Nightblade
~Baron Humbert von Gikkingen~
Smokes-His-Greens
~Ruvaak~3 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »The one place that werewolf has been consistently powerful in comparison to other builds is low-level Battlegrounds.
The problem is that its hard to tell how much of that is the Werewolf itself, and how much of that is the experience of the PVPers who grind up WW at low levels so they can use it in BGs. Like much of PVP, I'm sure a WW in the hands of a newbie isnt going to be anything to wrote home about.
It wasn't just lowbie PvP, WW overperformed in nonCP PvP scenarios because of how easy it was to throw on Wolfhunter sets, light attack targets to stack em with bleeds, and fear/defile them while running away and healing relatively fast because the WW stacked into Health which boosted their healing attributes.
I'm not a fan of WWs at all, but they were relatively balanced once they standardized how their DoTs worked, and only needed minor tuning beyond that.
Werewolf performs significantly worse in NO-CP compared to CP due to some of the CP passives you get from certain blue trees (speaking strictly of solo pvp)
And when you mention "wolfhunter sets" I'm going to assume you talk about bloodmoon, which btw, is a horrible PvP set for werewolf (and don't link that low mmr BG video of fengrush getting carried by two healers in a BG while running bloodmoon on a ww, that game is a horrible example, and only proves the point that ww is a "pug-stomper")
Never used blood moon in low mmr games. Only on my main, which is top of mmr. Wasnt supported by 2 healers but 1. It was good at what it did, shred every target including shield see stack/ block setups.
Not a solo setup, but it was pretty unmatched. Saying it was low mmr or pub stomp is just trying to deny it for some strange reason. They nerfed it for a reason.2 -
x48rph✭✭✭✭✭
✭
It isn’t supposed to be “good” at anything. It’s a niche, an option you choose because you desire, similar to things like Hybrids.DocFrost72 wrote: »
Yeah, this. Werewolf is a skill line. It's not suppose to be something you base your entire build off of. Try to put it on par with "classes" doesn't really make any sense, at least to me.2 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't understand where people got the idea werewolves were supposed to be able to keep up with other specs dmg-wise. It's a supplemental skill line, like Vampirism. You don't see people trying to parse with drain essence, mistform, and Batswarm, then whining about how underpowered their spec is.
It's a fun, niche roleplay build meant for overland content or to boost your real spec with passives, not serious content.PC/Xbox NA
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It isn’t supposed to be “good” at anything. It’s a niche, an option you choose because you desire, similar to things like Hybrids.DocFrost72 wrote: »
Yeah, this. Werewolf is a skill line. It's not suppose to be something you base your entire build off of. Try to put it on par with "classes" doesn't really make any sense, at least to me.
Thing is, once you go into werewolf form, that is your build. Your original class passives carry over, but other than that, it pretty much becomes your class. You can't do anything else but werewolf.
I suppose you could play werewolf like any other ultimate where you build for your regular class and then pop WW when its up...but that's an inefficient use of the ultimate. You'd do better to just run the BIS ultimates for your class then. If that's actually ZOS' intent, I'm not sure it matches up with what most WW players want.
When you actually play in order to be a werewolf, you have to build for werewolf form. Effectively, you play a werewolf with class passives, who sometimes is a person with a class.8 -
Transairion✭✭✭✭✭Thing is, once you go into werewolf form, that is your build. Your original class passives carry over, but other than that, it pretty much becomes your class. You can't do anything else but werewolf.
Just logged in to agree with this as much as I can.
If the intention behind Werewolf is to be locked into only 5 WW-exclusive skills, you're essentially playing the WW class for the duration. Vampires are basically a passive state added onto any existing build, making them incredibly versatile. I mean, you can by ANYTHING as a vampire except a Werewolf right?
A Werewolf is a stamina, melee damage dealer and that's it. Originally because it timed out after a set time you could say it was a "burst then bust" Ultimate, but with changes to allow it to up permanently (or almost permanently) it really feels like it's own partial class. If the idea is we can stay in it forever now, then it should be worthwhile staying in it.
Doesn't really feel like the Scalebreaker skill audit actually addressed WW issues any, just nerfed it for PvP sake and moved on. Pack Leader lost most of it's base functions and gained PvP-useful-only debuffs.or boost your real spec with passives
There are no WW passives that function outside WW form anymore, the only one was stamina regeneration and that was changed after all Stamina players became WW's and never slotted their transformation Ultimate.
You become a WW to use the Ultimate, or you don't become one.
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SosRuvaak✭✭✭✭✭I don't understand where people got the idea werewolves were supposed to be able to keep up with other specs dmg-wise. It's a supplemental skill line, like Vampirism. You don't see people trying to parse with drain essence, mistform, and Batswarm, then whining about how underpowered their spec is.
It's a fun, niche roleplay build meant for overland content or to boost your real spec with passives, not serious content.
that is extreemly redundant for zenimax to include in a game that is based around damaging enemies.
sure people come to eso to RP, but zeni doesnt balance stuff for the RP community, that doesnt even care about damage stats or sustain.For the Pact!
~Sump Scales~
Lusty Argonian Nightblade
~Baron Humbert von Gikkingen~
Smokes-His-Greens
~Ruvaak~0 -
FenrisWolf1136✭✭✭I don't understand where people got the idea werewolves were supposed to be able to keep up with other specs dmg-wise. It's a supplemental skill line, like Vampirism. You don't see people trying to parse with drain essence, mistform, and Batswarm, then whining about how underpowered their spec is.
It's a fun, niche roleplay build meant for overland content or to boost your real spec with passives, not serious content.
I disagree. While werewolf does lack a class of its own, its not really designed to be supplemental either. If you were to do a regular class build then just have a short ww ult, you would actually lose a lot of damage. That would make all the passives and abilities under the werewolf skill line useless if you just used ww to get 15% stam regen, the only active passive. Vampire passives would already be a better choice in that case.
That leaves us with having to build around the werewolf entirely. If we have to work and dedicate everything to the werewolf form, then it should be about on par with a decent stam class. Add to it lack of range, a timer, and lack of group synergies, they should hit a little harder to make them viable in end game content. Its not just a roleplaying thing. Its a legitimate way to play the game. It certainly takes some skill to do it. I have more complaints having sorcs in trials because of all the twilights blocking the camera over a werewolf anyday.
Not sure where the hang up is in the fact that some people think a werewolf should not be in an endgame situations. I've seen many complain that its too easy. Which i find stems from a lack of actual playtime as a werewolf. That or pvp complaints because they don't know how to counter the style and get mowed down. Do they have an easier rotation, sure. Easier gameplay with dlc dungeons and trials, not at all the case.
Werewolf is built for endgame situations like any class would be. We just have to be a bit more mindful of mechanics and those we run with. I've cleared most of them at this point on my werewolf, just lacking vhof and vas which are a work in progress. The newer patches seem to just want to make that type of play more difficult. If it comes down to people needing it to be a class to seem valid, by all means give werewolf a class of its own. Don't see that happening, but i'm not opposed to it.Programmer of FenrisBot for discord.
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Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't understand where people got the idea werewolves were supposed to be able to keep up with other specs dmg-wise. It's a supplemental skill line, like Vampirism. You don't see people trying to parse with drain essence, mistform, and Batswarm, then whining about how underpowered their spec is.
It's a fun, niche roleplay build meant for overland content or to boost your real spec with passives, not serious content.
that is extreemly redundant for zenimax to include in a game that is based around damaging enemies.
sure people come to eso to RP, but zeni doesnt balance stuff for the RP community, that doesnt even care about damage stats or sustain.
Oh, we care. We just come at it from a different perspective. When you focus on a character concept, we are more limited in now we can adapt to changes in gameplay mechanics without destroying the identity of said character. In that sense, werewolf suffers challenges similar to those of us who create characters over “builds.” Like RP driven players, the werewolf can’t just switch out different skills willy nilly and still be a werewolf. The werewolf form is defiend by its skill load out and changes to that significantly impact werewolf identity and gameplay feel. Set choices are the only other component that can be meaninfully altered.0 -
SosRuvaak✭✭✭✭✭I don't understand where people got the idea werewolves were supposed to be able to keep up with other specs dmg-wise. It's a supplemental skill line, like Vampirism. You don't see people trying to parse with drain essence, mistform, and Batswarm, then whining about how underpowered their spec is.
It's a fun, niche roleplay build meant for overland content or to boost your real spec with passives, not serious content.
that is extreemly redundant for zenimax to include in a game that is based around damaging enemies.
sure people come to eso to RP, but zeni doesnt balance stuff for the RP community, that doesnt even care about damage stats or sustain.
Oh, we care. We just come at it from a different perspective. When you focus on a character concept, we are more limited in now we can adapt to changes in gameplay mechanics without destroying the identity of said character. In that sense, werewolf suffers challenges similar to those of us who create characters over “builds.” Like RP driven players, the werewolf can’t just switch out different skills willy nilly and still be a werewolf. The werewolf form is defiend by its skill load out and changes to that significantly impact werewolf identity and gameplay feel. Set choices are the only other component that can be meaninfully altered.
but in the long run the RP community doesnt fully use the game they play. you cant argue that youre using werewolf to the fullest of its ability if you just use it for RP.
For the Pact!
~Sump Scales~
Lusty Argonian Nightblade
~Baron Humbert von Gikkingen~
Smokes-His-Greens
~Ruvaak~1 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't understand where people got the idea werewolves were supposed to be able to keep up with other specs dmg-wise. It's a supplemental skill line, like Vampirism. You don't see people trying to parse with drain essence, mistform, and Batswarm, then whining about how underpowered their spec is.
It's a fun, niche roleplay build meant for overland content or to boost your real spec with passives, not serious content.
that is extreemly redundant for zenimax to include in a game that is based around damaging enemies.
sure people come to eso to RP, but zeni doesnt balance stuff for the RP community, that doesnt even care about damage stats or sustain.
Oh, we care. We just come at it from a different perspective. When you focus on a character concept, we are more limited in now we can adapt to changes in gameplay mechanics without destroying the identity of said character. In that sense, werewolf suffers challenges similar to those of us who create characters over “builds.” Like RP driven players, the werewolf can’t just switch out different skills willy nilly and still be a werewolf. The werewolf form is defiend by its skill load out and changes to that significantly impact werewolf identity and gameplay feel. Set choices are the only other component that can be meaninfully altered.
but in the long run the RP community doesnt fully use the game they play. you cant argue that youre using werewolf to the fullest of its ability if you just use it for RP.
Sure I can. Nobody uses anything in this game to it’s “fullest ability” because what that means is subjective and depends on how you play. Instead, everybody fully uses the game in a way that matches what they want to do with it. Please, let’s not pretend otherwise because doing that accomplishes little more than insulting and demeaning other people’s preferences.2 -
It is in place of an ultimate. An ultimate you sink skill points in. It should be powerful. It was great in PVP till you hit level 50. Now I get kicked from dungeon groups if I go WW. They assume that is why they got wiped.2
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Dashmatt✭✭✭✭I’ve never seen so many people defending massive nerfs. It’s almost like most people don’t seriously play werewolves, or something!
Regardless of opinion, I think it’s fair to say that the “response” from ZOS is a huge non-answer that does nothing to address the concerns expressed by many dedicated werewolves before and after the new update.5 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭(PVP) Werewolf is different than anything else in the game.
With very few abilities/time they are able to put immense pressure on a single target. This is Medium-High sustain damage output. Werewolves kill their opponent by simply over-damaging their opponent's healing over time. Being on the receiving end of this is much different than the burst/ burst recovery gameplay that the majority of players are used to, dying to or killing the opponent in a burst combo.
Getting attacked by a werewolf is much like the slow sensation of drowning, it's agonizing, and excruciating. But this is only in solo, 1v1 fights with a wolf.
Now healing over time is improved and so are the majority of 1v1 damage skills in the game, coupled with the loss of werewolf's single target pressure. Making taking on a werewolf much more bearable.
Once you add in group healing you see werewolves really don't excell at anything anymore.
Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA5 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »The one place that werewolf has been consistently powerful in comparison to other builds is low-level Battlegrounds.
The problem is that its hard to tell how much of that is the Werewolf itself, and how much of that is the experience of the PVPers who grind up WW at low levels so they can use it in BGs. Like much of PVP, I'm sure a WW in the hands of a newbie isnt going to be anything to wrote home about.
It wasn't just lowbie PvP, WW overperformed in nonCP PvP scenarios because of how easy it was to throw on Wolfhunter sets, light attack targets to stack em with bleeds, and fear/defile them while running away and healing relatively fast because the WW stacked into Health which boosted their healing attributes.
I'm not a fan of WWs at all, but they were relatively balanced once they standardized how their DoTs worked, and only needed minor tuning beyond that.
Werewolf performs significantly worse in NO-CP compared to CP due to some of the CP passives you get from certain blue trees (speaking strictly of solo pvp)
And when you mention "wolfhunter sets" I'm going to assume you talk about bloodmoon, which btw, is a horrible PvP set for werewolf (and don't link that low mmr BG video of fengrush getting carried by two healers in a BG while running bloodmoon on a ww, that game is a horrible example, and only proves the point that ww is a "pug-stomper")
Never used blood moon in low mmr games. Only on my main, which is top of mmr. Wasnt supported by 2 healers but 1. It was good at what it did, shred every target including shield see stack/ block setups.
Not a solo setup, but it was pretty unmatched. Saying it was low mmr or pub stomp is just trying to deny it for some strange reason. They nerfed it for a reason.
Any werewolf build with a healer will overperform, but I don't expect anyone who's been zergsurfing on stream with embedded viewership for the last year to understand how werewolf works in solo or small-scale scenarios.
Edit:
And you didn't have 1 healer/support in that match I refer to, you had 3 (2 magplars + a warden). Feel free to come back to me when you've some experience with werewolf without getting carried by multiple healers.
Edited by Qbiken on August 27, 2019 6:57PM3 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It needs to be reworked, entirely, IMO. As does Vampire.
Vampire needs a clan system and WW needs to have moon cycles.0331
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SoLooney✭✭✭✭✭So people arent just able to spam light attacks and get good reward from them? Sounds about right, let's keep it that way
Btw, it's not a class, it's a gimmick1
