We believe the werewolf is in a relatively good state balance-wise at the moment

DocFrost72

Directly from this link here. (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1)

A lot of the feedback given on the werewolf changes don’t appear to be actioned upon. Why were no additional adjustments made?
We believe the werewolf is in a relatively good state balance-wise at the moment, but are continuing to monitor the live servers to see how things shake out.

Might I ask how werewolves are in a good state balance wise? In what metric?

They are the lowest stamina PVE DPS.

They are the worst stamina solo open world PVP build.

They are incapable of reliably tanking because weapon passives do not apply, and because their gap closer is not considered a "charge" for the tormentor set. Even if they could hold taunt, they have precious little utility to offer, barring an aoe root (that costs your block resource) and a fracture that only now works on bosses, but also doesn't apply breach.

They are entirely incapable of healing, and offer 1 (one) synergy making them unfit for support roles.

I guess my question is, respectfully, where are they performing well? In what metric that you can see and we cannot are werewolves in a good state balance wise? I assume you are not just providing PR lip service here, but without the same hard data you are looking at I can only speculate. I would love to see this sub-community grow and develop, but quite honestly the fact that this is the first thread to be posted in two days (I checked the search function and caught nothing relevant to U23) but plenty, PLENTY of advice in the official feedback thread designed to aggregate werewolf concerns and pain points is telling. I assume it was lumped under the statement "A lot of the feedback", which itself is a misnomer; werewolf was not changed ONCE in the cycle. A lot of feedback wasn't addressed. None of it was.

Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps werewolf has a niche of relevance. I would be humbled and honored if you could provide us with specifics as to why you feel the layout of the Werewolf tree in update 23 is something players will enjoy and find useful.

Thank you for your time, and for reading this. Have a pleasant day.

Tommy_The_Gun

We, giving feedback, and ZOS looking at pain-points we point out...
(Imagine that the medical store is the ESO Forums, Stuff working there is ZOS and we are the customer):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7UqhDs8zj4

SenpaiNFT

Werewolf isn’t a class, it’s a niche. It’s finally in a balanced state, ZOS did good work with them.

rpa

Here's a balanced WW.

I tried to take some screenshots at Hunting Grounds and turning IK on did not help.

TiZzA93

Well lets just say i tested all my WW builds and felt like utter *** using them now, its literally like zos just said 'hey buff em to sell wolfhunter dlc now thats done put em down' i really dont see why they got hit so hard. Off the top of my head the only content they were bis for was UNDER 50 BGS which is just so unfair to base the nerfs with well maybe VMA too BUT zoo sorc, stam sorc, magblade, magplar are all EZ mode there too petsorc 1 bar heavy spam ffs. Look some changes were decent in the overall patch but WW got waaaaay too much oof a nerf pve nowhere near competing with any other spec, pvp 1 vigor, 1 regeneration, 1 shield n pot bam u loose lol. Well rant over........

Changes i think could help:
WW berserker the damge of each bleed tick increases by 10% for the duration.
WW pack leader every time 1 of ur direwolves lands an attack u and ur allies gain 1 use of empower, 3 sec cooldown per pet.
The heal revert the change period

DocFrost72

SenpaiNFT wrote: »

Werewolf isn’t a class, it’s a niche. It’s finally in a balanced state, ZOS did good work with them.

I'm glad you feel that way. What are they good at?

Darcwolf

Unless something changed overnight it sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. Have you tried Alcasts "claws" werewolf build? I can reliably pull 35k+ dps easy in any pug dungeon group, and 50k+ in a good trial group.

Let me look at some of your complaints

"They are the lowest stamina PVE DPS.

They are the worst stamina solo open world PVP build."

I can't comment much on lowest stamina pve dps, but 90% of the time I out DPS others in dungeons, so I have a hard time believing that.

Solo open world I have literally no problem killing people, the only problem is loosing werewolf while roaming, that does suck.

"They are incapable of reliably tanking because weapon passives do not apply, and because their gap closer is not considered a "charge" for the tormentor set. Even if they could hold taunt, they have precious little utility to offer, barring an aoe root (that costs your block resource) and a fracture that only now works on bosses, but also doesn't apply breach."

The only problem werewolf has with tanking is a lack of a taunt. I'm a WW NB medium armor and have pretty much no issue tanking things. With the change that allows you to keep werewolf time by attacking I have no issues with this at all. Only time I haven't tried this is in a trial, which I wouldn't want to, because I'm not a tank. But I regularly step up in dungeons and tank if the real tank goes down, or on world bosses.

Also a build like this is great for VMA

https://alcasthq.com/eso-solo-stamina-werewolf-build-pve/

Darcwolf

Also, not sure if you are referring to group heals, but werewolf can heal itself fine with claws of life and hircines rage.

Qbiken

@Darcwolf
The moment you linked alcast as a reference you lost most credibility you might have had left.......

And those 35-50k numbers can be doubled on more or less any other stamina spec without much effort, so werewolf falls really far behind even on that aspect.

And have you even played solo werewolf in Scalebreaker and fought competent players?
Werewolf is easily the worst stamina solo specc in the game at this point. You lack both damage and proper survivability to win even a 1v1 against a good/equally skilled player. Sure you can still 1vX people running around in full divine but when was the last time that was a good measurement of balance?


The only part of your comment that's correct is that werewolf works somewhat ok in a group (pvp). But even there, werewolf doesn't bring anything unique. Previously they were able to bring good single target damage, but now every non ww stamina setup outperforms them.

Darcwolf wrote: »

Also, not sure if you are referring to group heals, but werewolf can heal itself fine with claws of life and hircines rage.

For PvE that's enough, in pvp you're free AP if you unironically believe that....

Vicinia

Seems to me that Vampirism is the far superior option, if you wanted to choose from both. WW doesn't offer anything that you can't do in human form. Well actually you can do it better, as others have stated.

Get your Regen/Undeath/Mist, rather than being a neutered dog

tonemd

Wasn't everyone JUST complaining about werewolves in BGs being OP? What changed.

Vlad9425

They also believe that Cast time Ults and homogenization of skills are good so it's fair to say that their beliefs are questionable.

idk

WW is a very easy build to play. It requires a low player skill level to do it's best. As such it should be on the low end of stamina dps.

Qbiken

idk wrote: »

WW is a very easy build to play. It requires a low player skill level to do it's best. As such it should be on the low end of stamina dps.

I mean, werewolf has always been on the lower end (aside from the first 2 weeks of wolfhunter pts) so try again.....

idk

Qbiken wrote: »

idk wrote: »

WW is a very easy build to play. It requires a low player skill level to do it's best. As such it should be on the low end of stamina dps.

I mean, werewolf has always been on the lower end (aside from the first 2 weeks of wolfhunter pts) so try again.....

Try again? I state an obvious fact and you make a statement that agrees with it then say try again? lol Somewhere in there you seem to have missed the mark you were trying to hit.

VaranisArano

The one place that werewolf has been consistently powerful in comparison to other builds is low-level Battlegrounds.

The problem is that its hard to tell how much of that is the Werewolf itself, and how much of that is the experience of the PVPers who grind up WW at low levels so they can use it in BGs. Like much of PVP, I'm sure a WW in the hands of a newbie isnt going to be anything to wrote home about.

SenpaiNFT

DocFrost72 wrote: »

SenpaiNFT wrote: »

Werewolf isn’t a class, it’s a niche. It’s finally in a balanced state, ZOS did good work with them.

I'm glad you feel that way. What are they good at?

It isn’t supposed to be “good” at anything. It’s a niche, an option you choose because you desire, similar to things like Hybrids.

Katahdin

The magicka cost to the burst heal is way too high for a stamina build. Can hit it 2x and you're done.

Mag characters don't use werewolf.

Qbiken

idk wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

idk wrote: »

WW is a very easy build to play. It requires a low player skill level to do it's best. As such it should be on the low end of stamina dps.

I mean, werewolf has always been on the lower end (aside from the first 2 weeks of wolfhunter pts) so try again.....

Try again? I state an obvious fact and you make a statement that agrees with it then say try again? lol Somewhere in there you seem to have missed the mark you were trying to hit.

Fair point.....
I just don't find the current state justified by any means...

idk

Qbiken wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

idk wrote: »

WW is a very easy build to play. It requires a low player skill level to do it's best. As such it should be on the low end of stamina dps.

I mean, werewolf has always been on the lower end (aside from the first 2 weeks of wolfhunter pts) so try again.....

Try again? I state an obvious fact and you make a statement that agrees with it then say try again? lol Somewhere in there you seem to have missed the mark you were trying to hit.

Fair point.....
I just don't find the current state justified by any means...

I agree that the current state is not amicable for anyone wanting to do good dps, but that was the issue after the rework WW, that players that lacked the skill were able to pull decent dps. It was a crutch.

The place WWs should be is not as good as normal builds designed to perform high for dungeons and trials but still good enough they can go on fun trial or dungeon runs. Good enough so that half skilled players that kicks everyone from his GF groups that cannot carry them will not look down on a WW so much.

Is it in that sweet spot? idk.

Darcwolf

Qbiken wrote: »

@Darcwolf
The moment you linked alcast as a reference you lost most credibility you might have had left.......

And those 35-50k numbers can be doubled on more or less any other stamina spec without much effort, so werewolf falls really far behind even on that aspect.

And have you even played solo werewolf in Scalebreaker and fought competent players?
Werewolf is easily the worst stamina solo specc in the game at this point. You lack both damage and proper survivability to win even a 1v1 against a good/equally skilled player. Sure you can still 1vX people running around in full divine but when was the last time that was a good measurement of balance?


The only part of your comment that's correct is that werewolf works somewhat ok in a group (pvp). But even there, werewolf doesn't bring anything unique. Previously they were able to bring good single target damage, but now every non ww stamina setup outperforms them.

Darcwolf wrote: »

Also, not sure if you are referring to group heals, but werewolf can heal itself fine with claws of life and hircines rage.

For PvE that's enough, in pvp you're free AP if you unironically believe that....

Right... Cause you're so good and post very popular build guides that work very well. When you're one tenth the player he is let me know. Go ahead and show me a 70-100k dps build that is easy to achieve and doesn't require you to be a teenager on speed.

FenrisWolf1136

idk wrote: »

WW is a very easy build to play. It requires a low player skill level to do it's best. As such it should be on the low end of stamina dps.

Werewolves lack range, dont bring a lot to the group synergy wise, and we have to work around a timer constantly. Its impossible to be in werewolf form 100% bringing dps down from 70k to 30k. While its a bit easier to get out dps in a straight dps race because of a very simple rotation, saying it requires lower skill isn't at all true.

Higher damage is what offsets the downsides of being in form and self limiting our skills to 5.

MartiniDaniels

Say thanks to low level BG abusers

FenrisWolf1136

Darcwolf wrote: »

Unless something changed overnight it sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. Have you tried Alcasts "claws" werewolf build? I can reliably pull 35k+ dps easy in any pug dungeon group, and 50k+ in a good trial group.

Let me look at some of your complaints

"They are the lowest stamina PVE DPS.

They are the worst stamina solo open world PVP build."

I can't comment much on lowest stamina pve dps, but 90% of the time I out DPS others in dungeons, so I have a hard time believing that.

Solo open world I have literally no problem killing people, the only problem is loosing werewolf while roaming, that does suck.

"They are incapable of reliably tanking because weapon passives do not apply, and because their gap closer is not considered a "charge" for the tormentor set. Even if they could hold taunt, they have precious little utility to offer, barring an aoe root (that costs your block resource) and a fracture that only now works on bosses, but also doesn't apply breach."

The only problem werewolf has with tanking is a lack of a taunt. I'm a WW NB medium armor and have pretty much no issue tanking things. With the change that allows you to keep werewolf time by attacking I have no issues with this at all. Only time I haven't tried this is in a trial, which I wouldn't want to, because I'm not a tank. But I regularly step up in dungeons and tank if the real tank goes down, or on world bosses.

Also a build like this is great for VMA

https://alcasthq.com/eso-solo-stamina-werewolf-build-pve/

They are one of the lowest of the stam dps, most other stam classes can pull 80k - 100k. Highest I've pulled on werewolf is 75k average on a sorc orc. Plus classes are not limited by a timer, lack of range, and group buffs.

They are not designed to be tanks, they have a good bit of resistances but agreed that they don't have the skills to back that up.

While werewolf in solo play is pretty nice, you should bring one into a vet dlc trial. The crags are easy enough to get through. 50k+ won't get you into most dlc vet trials progression guilds. One of mine requires 80k+ min for stam to get core runs. Most of those guilds see werewolf and you get shot down before getting a word further. (Not all, but I've been turned down for just being a werewolf more times than I've been accepted).

The claws setup from alcast isn't something i would recommend to people looking to pull some higher dps. Isn't bad for learning vma, but after learning it, a regular build works way better. Sets to use are bloodmoon, relequen, and molag kena. With the right cp setup and the shadow mundus, i pull 70k average with the berserker morph. (My stam dragonknight werewolf).

xylena_lazarow

Why do people keep asking for werewolf tanks? A tank holds block for most of the fight, and is thematically associated with discipline and control. A werewolf is not suited for any of those things.

SosRuvaak

2 heals in a fight.
with -17% damage that is REALLY bad

Heatnix90

VaranisArano wrote: »

The one place that werewolf has been consistently powerful in comparison to other builds is low-level Battlegrounds.

The problem is that its hard to tell how much of that is the Werewolf itself, and how much of that is the experience of the PVPers who grind up WW at low levels so they can use it in BGs. Like much of PVP, I'm sure a WW in the hands of a newbie isnt going to be anything to wrote home about.

It wasn't just lowbie PvP, WW overperformed in nonCP PvP scenarios because of how easy it was to throw on Wolfhunter sets, light attack targets to stack em with bleeds, and fear/defile them while running away and healing relatively fast because the WW stacked into Health which boosted their healing attributes.

I'm not a fan of WWs at all, but they were relatively balanced once they standardized how their DoTs worked, and only needed minor tuning beyond that.

Katrk

I’m going to get massacred for saying this but I will. At the current state of the Werewolf making it a permanent form wouldn’t be necessarily a bad thing. It isn’t over powered and there are several lore books I will gladly point out that make the case that the time limit doesn’t exist for werewolves living in the elder scrolls universe. Zenimax tailored the Necromancer to standing lore, I don’t see why the Werewolf cannot.

VaranisArano

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Why do people keep asking for werewolf tanks? A tank holds block for most of the fight, and is thematically associated with discipline and control. A werewolf is not suited for any of those things.

A werewolf tank could do just fine in dungeons if they had a taunt. Permablocking isnt usually necessary for those. They wouldnt be meta, due to the lack of group support and CC, but at least they could do the role. And it sorta makes sense that the boss would focus on the wolf monster attacking it.

It just seems a little odd that ZOS is trying so hard to make sure every class can tank, heal, and DPS, only to turn around and leave WW locked into the DPS role while Vampire can fit into any role.

ccfeeling

There is no space in PVE unless you have a big WW group.

Normal stam dps is much much more better.

DocFrost72

SenpaiNFT wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

SenpaiNFT wrote: »

Werewolf isn’t a class, it’s a niche. It’s finally in a balanced state, ZOS did good work with them.

I'm glad you feel that way. What are they good at?

It isn’t supposed to be “good” at anything. It’s a niche, an option you choose because you desire, similar to things like Hybrids.

I disagree with you, but it is only a difference of opinion.

I do *really* hope that isn't ZOS' official answer, however.