phuein wrote: »

Finally, the conversation is turning into something interesting and useful! Thank you.

I feel like the responses above are dismissing the challenge in self-healing through all those NPCs attacking. It takes a meaningful healing setup that won't do if a strong player comes in and attacks. So there is a risk and strategy to it.

Also, how quickly does a strong player kill those mobs before the flag starts turning? Is that extra delay really that meaningful to justify not letting players have more of a variety of fun? I don't think so. It's silly to encourage zerging but discourage interesting solo strategies that come with risks. Just remember how often you hated getting zerged instead of fighting skill.

Realistically, right now during the empty hours whether it's me self-healing on the flag or me dpsing the mobs and flagging, either way only player presence will stop me. If anything, doing the healing setup would mean less mob grind but even more risk from an oncoming player!

I play a healer in PVP, though it's not a "all heals, no damage" build, so, no, I don't think I'm underestimating the challenge of self healing through the NPCs attacking. Properly built to sustain, its not that hard as long as you don't stand in the NPC Silences.

Nor, to be perfectly frank, do I think that "all heals, no damage" qualifies as an "interesting" solo strategy vs NPCs. You even admit as much, pointing out that it's "less mob grind." Its pretty much just standing on the flag, spamming skills, and waiting out the flag timer (depending on the player, the timer might be more or less than the time to kill the 4 flag guards). Your OP suggests Meditating with buffs and healing gear to turn a flag...that's about as far from interesting as I can imagine.

There's a reason that a 100% healer build can work in Battlegrounds - its easy for players to reach you. If a flag is unclaimed, you can take it. If an enemy is already there, you have to kill or outnumber them.

In contrast, in Cyrodiil, the NPCs serve as a challenge to prevent players from taking the flags without a fight even if an enemy player doesn't show up. So it doesn't make sense for you to flip the flag unless you kill or outnumber the guarding NPCs. Your reasoning of "Its less risk from NPCs, but more risk from players" is quite counterproductive to the whole point of NPCs guarding resources when there are no enemy players present (which is pretty often, as stated in my earlier comments, and especially on less populated campaigns).

Moreover, Cyrodiil is the Alliance War. Unlike BG flags, every town or resource is owned territory that you have to take away from the NPCs guarding it for their alliance by killing them or outnumbering them. Cyrodiil has a larger scale than Battlegrounds and the NPC-guarded flags add to that. Removing their ability to hold the flags by their presence diminishes that aspect of Cyrodiil.


I don't see any reason why ZOS should change the requirememts for flag ownership: kill or outnumber the owning NPCs (or PCs for that matter).

And I have yet to hear a good reason as to why this change would benefit Cyrodiil, beyond your desire to see more support for DPS-less solo builds. "More variety" is not actually a positive good to be sought by any means.

Why would ZOS, who's been steadily buffing NPCs in CP Cyrodiil, want to create a situation that results in "less mob grind" and enables players to capture owned alliance objectives without actually fighting those NPCs?

phuein wrote: »

At this point, I have to wonder what is the actual healer/tank/dps ratio in ESO. The most common response is "just dps" as if it wouldn't be more fun and efficient to just play a dps build in that case.

There is literally no reason that healers and tanks can't flag towns in Cyro without basically playing a dps. No reason at all.

I play a DD and I am always solo. So I slot some healing skills. I would not nearly have as much fun if i was purely DPS build and it would unbalance my character in pvp.

You have to adapt to fit the situation not expect every situation to adapt to you.

If you play a support build (healer, buffer, tank, etc) then you have to make peace with the fact that your build is useless if there is nobody around to support. If you want to function while solo then you need to be able to deal damage.

phuein wrote: »

I see a lot of [surprising] contradictions in the responses.

- A dps build with some heals will capture flags much better than a heals build with some dps. They aren't the same, so any advice to "just add a dps skill on your bar" is moot.

- Cyrodiil isn't ALL about grouping, because everybody acknowledges that a solo strong dps will capture flags just fine...

- And if solo dps flag capturing is only efficient when other players don't interrupt, then it doesn't matter if it's done by dps or heals. So, NPCs "slowing you down" doesn't apply anymore anyways.

- "Interesting" is subjective. I expect healers to want more gameplay options, rather than less. Being apologetic about this shows what kind of healer you are!


I have to wonder if BGs are more successful, in player count and regularity. The bottom line is: More roles have more gameplay options, which means more fun for more players. Anything else is UNWANTED in a game. Any game developer will concede to this. It's why we got One Tamriel. And why they are now rebalancing the classes.

It's also time for a Cyrodiil rebalance, so it's not just the same ol' 50 players on the map.

So we're going with the "If you disagree with me, that just shows what type of healer you are!" insults?

Please, if we're going to continue this conversation, do it without the insults. Otherwise, I'm not going to waste my time with someone not willing to debate in good faith.


As a PVP healer, I think that healers have to adapt to the Cyrodiil environment. That means accepting that everything in Cyrodiil PVP is not designed for all-heals, no-DPS in a solo build. The only place in Cyrodiil where all-heals, no DPS builds work effectively is in an organized raid.

Also as a PVP healer, I don't think that your example in the OP of Meditating on the flag while my buffs and sets do the work of healing is "interesting" gameplay. That's a matter of opinion, of course, but as I previously stated, you yourself admitted that against flag NPCs, your suggested strategy results in "less mob grind". I'll be honest - that's not convincing me that standing/meditating on the flag and spamming heals through proc sets is an improvement to current gameplay.

And I have yet to see you actually explain why your suggestion is of benefit to Cyrodiil. Again, adding gameplay options just to add gameplay options is not necessarily a beneficial thing, especially when those added gameplay options don't fit the design of Cyrodiil or indeed work counter to that design, as I've explained in previous comments.

So as a PVP healer, I'm left wondering:

Why would ZOS, who's been steadily buffing NPCs in CP Cyrodiil to protect resources/towns when players aren't present, want to create a situation that results in healers facing "less mob grind" and enables healers to capture owned alliance objectives without actually fighting those NPCs?

I'm quite bewildered by the OP. Troll? If you are a templar, slot Sweeps and you're done. It even heals you.

You want to ... what ... pacify the NPCs somehow? Persuade them to turn faction? The problem with that is: Where's the risk? While guards aren't huge trouble, they can at least be somewhat nasty to a single DPS, especially if a player from the opposing faction turns up.

It was possible to build a warden health tank, some patches ago, that would do quite decent damage in IC via abilities that scale with health: Arctic Wind, Shards and ice ult, with something like Skoria to top it off. In terms of fun, yes, I would say that made a huge difference in IC, since solo tanks otherwise tend to get locked into endless fights with NPCs and get stuck in one district. Sadly Arctic Wind was changed to something no one wanted from that skill.

Fun is what you make it. I wouldn't call turning flags solo fun, though, to be honest.

First of all, a healer can't just meditate over anything. Interruptions stop a meditation. So there is gameplay to it. Anybody who seriously plays a healer would know this.

Second, the NPCs in Cyro being buffed still doesn't stop a solo dps from taking the flag just as quickly. Whether it's an NPCs murder spree or a healing struggle, the flagging is basically the same. So, no, there's no reason to insist it's only done with dpsing.

You can call me a troll. But I call you a dps fanboy. There is absolutely no reason why healers and tanks shouldn't get more equality in ESO, to play the way THEY LIKE TO PLAY, rather than dpsing on the side. The current conditions are just lazy game design!

Go and try meditating over a flag. It's not a one-click-and-forget. And it's not that different from cleaning up the NPCs. It's just flagging through a different role, that a meaningful percentage of players prefer to play!

We're not all bloodthristy damage dealers. This isn't me expecting the impossible. This is the player base - especially you guys - letting Zeni get away with a meat grinder.

phuein wrote: »

First of all, a healer can't just meditate over anything. Interruptions stop a meditation. So there is gameplay to it. Anybody who seriously plays a healer would know this.

Second, the NPCs in Cyro being buffed still doesn't stop a solo dps from taking the flag just as quickly. Whether it's an NPCs murder spree or a healing struggle, the flagging is basically the same. So, no, there's no reason to insist it's only done with dpsing.

You can call me a troll. But I call you a dps fanboy. There is absolutely no reason why healers and tanks shouldn't get more equality in ESO, to play the way THEY LIKE TO PLAY, rather than dpsing on the side. The current conditions are just lazy game design!

Go and try meditating over a flag. It's not a one-click-and-forget. And it's not that different from cleaning up the NPCs. It's just flagging through a different role, that a meaningful percentage of players prefer to play!

We're not all bloodthristy damage dealers. This isn't me expecting the impossible. This is the player base - especially you guys - letting Zeni get away with a meat grinder.

DPS fanboys? I can see we've about reached the limits of the reasonableness of this conversation. (Though, to be honest, it may just be the way you lump everyone together in your response that's giving me this impression. if you don't intend that, sorry.)

Nevertheless, I will try to explain the impact of your suggestion on NPC behavior.

You are incorrect in your dismissal of the "buffed NPCs", when speaking about the challenge they provide when no enemy player shows up. This has impacts on Cyrodiil gameplay.

Here's how it would work.

Currently, the 4 NPCs on a resource flag own the flag with a value of 4. A solo player with a value of 1 must kill ALL of the NPCs before they can flip the flag. You can test this if NPCs respawn while you are flipping the flag - 1 NPC will cause the progress to halt, and more will reverse progress. In the case of groups, a group must number 5 before they can immediately begin flipping the flag by outnumbering the NPCs. (That delay of solo players or very small groups having to kill the NPCs first before flipping the flag also extends the window of time for enemy players to wander by.)

Now, in contrast, in order to not have to kill the NPCs, your suggestion means that NPCs can no longer own flags by their presence.

Under your suggestion, the 4 NPCs cannot own the flag at all, and have a value of 0. A solo player with a value of 1 can walk up to a flag and immediately begin flipping the flag as long as they can survive the NPC attacks by any means. In the case of groups...it won't matter, since the NPCs are automatically outnumbered and the flag will begin to flip the moment a player gets in range. (There is no longer a delay in fighting the NPCs in the window for enemy players to wander by.)

In the case of towns, this becomes even more pronounced, because towns require fighting 2 sets of Guarded flags, and NPCs respawn. When I capture towns, I always start with the unguarded flag, because otherwise I risk the guards respawning and recapturing the other flags for their alliance. Your suggestion shortens the amount of time it takes to capture the town solo (you no longer have to kill the guards before beginning the flag flip) and would eliminate the risk of respawns if you are somehow delayed (NPCs can't hold flags by their presence anymore).

Oh, and have I mentioned that you can also capture keeps from the inside? You have to have it flagged somewhere, but yeah, assuming you kill all the flag NPCs, you can solo flip the flags from inside a locked keep. Except, under your suggestion, you wouldn't have to kill the NPCs first, making it much quicker to flip the flags...

In other words, your suggestion makes it substantially easier for ANY solo player to capture an objective. It makes a complete mockery of the idea of NPCs being Alliance soliders and their "ownership" of Alliance War objectives, since the flags start flipping as soon as a player walks in range. Furthermore, it greatly diminishes the amount of risk of an enemy player showing up since there is no delay between killing the NPC guards and starting to flip the flag. (Note: it also makes things quicker and easier for any group that is smaller than the number of guards)

So, no, I don't see any reason why ZOS would want to remove the ability of NPCs to retain ownership of objective flags by their presence. Its not lazy game design. Rather, NPC flag ownership is pretty well designed for the difficulty of the various objectives.

It makes no sense for why ZOS would want to make objectives easier and quicker for ANY player to solo. Especially not when they keep buffing the guards to make it harder for players to solo objectives.

At least, I have yet to hear you give a reason for it other than "But no-damage builds ought to be able to do it! Anyone who says otherwise is a bloodthirsty DPS!"

Which is a flawed premise.

For one, solo no-damage builds can't do ALL content in Cyrodiil. Go do the PvPvE town quests and look at how many times you have to kill NPCs. In fact, true no-damage solo builds can't do much in Cyrodiil except for fetch quests, fishing, and making themselves a distraction on the battlefield. (And no, that's not lazy game design that Cyrodiil doesnt have much of a niche for no-damage solo builds. Cyrodiil, orginally designed for groups of 8 to 24 players, has plenty of utility for group no-damage builds. Cyrodiil also has plenty of use for solo tanks and healers...the ones who don't run no-damage builds and thus can actually kill NPCs and enemy players.)

Second, ESO is "play the way you like" but a moment's reflection ought to suffice to clue you in that it doesn't mean "every single build ever is capable of completing ALL the content in the game." Especially not solo.

If that's not enough, here's your reminder of what "Play the way you like" means.

fred4 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Oh, and have I mentioned that you can also capture keeps from the inside? You have to have it flagged somewhere, but yeah, assuming you kill all the flag NPCs, you can solo flip the flags from inside a locked keep. Except, under your suggestion, you wouldn't have to kill the NPCs first, making it much quicker to flip the flags...

Going off on a tangent: The main problem with taking keeps from the inside is that you have to put the keep under attack, otherwise the flags won't turn. This takes quite a long time as a single player, during which you risk NPCs respawning or being found by an enemy player.

I never knew flags turn as soon as a group outnumbers the NPCs. I always assumed you had to kill them. Guess I've learnt something from this thread.

Yeah, taking a keep from inside solo is a challenge! Still, I've seen situations where there was cooperation with zone chat to flag the keep from the outside, so changing the way the guards act could definitely have an impact by making it faster to flip the flags.

Admittedly, I might be wrong on outnumbering NPCs causing flags to start flipping since I've never had a group of 5 or more just stand on a flag without killing the NPCs. I'm pretty sure that the flags start flipping before my raid kills all the flag guards, but I'd have to pay extra attention to make sure. However, you can see it happen often with players whenever a flag is contested between groups - the progress on flipping it favors whichever group has more players in range, so I assume the principle is the same. If not, it really only proves the point that ZOS wants those NPCs to be removed before the flags are flipped.

Even if I'm wrong there, the main point, however, was that NPCs prevent the flags from being flipped by their presence. I can't solo flip the flags until I remove the guards, which is a delay not present if I can stroll up to the flag and flip it while fighting the guards. Currently, if the guards respawn while I'm on the flag, one guard will stop progress, two or more will start capturing it for their alliance. Under the OP's suggestion, there would be no threat of a respawn recapturing the flag (not that a respawn would be likely to happen, since you don't have the delay of fighting the guards.)

Changing that ownership behavior has ramifications for Cyrodiil's objectives and if the OP's suggestion were followed, would make soloing objectives quicker and easier for any solo build. Which...I see no indication that ZOS has any desire to do. Quite the opposite, really. Nor do I see any reason why it would be good for Cyrodiil to make it easier for any player to solo a resource, not when ZOS ties them into keep upgrades, etc.

VaranisArano wrote: »

In fact, true no-damage solo builds can't do much in Cyrodiil except for fetch quests, fishing, and making themselves a distraction on the battlefield.

They do excel at one more thing: getting rekt

Any no-damage build suffers from that problem, including group healer/support 0-damage builds. When left on your own, against a decent player (or a few not-so-decent players), you can at most delay the inevitable.
Even if the enemy player(s) fail to manage to kill you outright, eventually they will bring more of their friends along.

fred4 wrote: »

never knew flags turn as soon as a group outnumbers the NPCs. I always assumed you had to kill them. Guess I've learnt something from this thread.

To be fair, it's one of those things that very rarely, if never, comes up in typical conditions.

With a smallscale group, the NPCs will be dead in a few seconds, so it makes no real difference overall.
With a largescale group/zerg, usually the group will not arrive all at once but "trickle in", and by the time enough players arrive, the NPCs are usually long since dead.

phuein wrote: »

Any other healers out there who feel similarly to me? Or healers who want this changed in a different way to make our role more fun and versatile?

The healer role in Cyrodiil is already VERY versatile. You can, for example:

• run a 0-damage build and heal zergs from inside,
• get in a guild largescale group and heal them, usually this means you will be near the front of the group,
• if you are a very good healer, you can heal smallscale groups,
• provide non-healing support to your allies (siege shield, purge, timestop, negate, various generic or unique (set) buffs, debuffing enemies),
• etc.

phuein wrote: »

I ask that any replies to this thread refrain from posting walls of text full of obvious game details, and large marketing images that give no new insights. Posting more doesn't equal being correct nor insightful. Thank you!

Any other healers out there who feel similarly to me? Or healers who want this changed in a different way to make our role more fun and versatile?

Yeah, we hit the end of your willingness to discuss this with people who disagree with you in detail, didn't we?

Which is sad. I was genuinely hoping that you had an answer to why ZOS ought to fundamentally change the role of NPCs in owning Alliance War objectives to make soloing easier.

Unfortunately, your answer was "You're wrong, and shut up!"

Somehow, that's not convincing to me in the slightest. But if you aren't willing to defend your suggestion and the impact it would have on Cyrodiil gameplay, I can't exactly make you do so.

You have a nice day, okay?

Whine or rant replies at me are not welcome in my thread. Please refrain from posting those. You are encouraged to remove posts that contain that.

This thread is not about soloing Cyrodiil in its entirety. It's about flagging, specifically. Please stay on topic. Because of the spam above, I'll ask again...

Any other healers out there who feel similarly to me? Or healers who want this changed in a different way to make our role more fun and versatile?