Another Anti-Ball Group idea

  • Drdeath20
    Drdeath20
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    The entire point is teamwork and coordination. A prepared team should feel powerful but its overkill at this point. Zero need for flankers, or a back tank or many other playstyles. really after it has been coordinated about who is gonna be the designated rapid spammer, who is gonna be the timestop user, and how many EG helms and viscious death sets they need there is really little strategy left after that. 3...2...1...drop ult..spam AoE..stay hard stacked and walk towards opponents. Everything instantly dies. Yahoo were amazing.
    Edited by Drdeath20 on August 1, 2019 5:16AM
  • Valencer
    Valencer
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    Imagine complaining about ball groups in 2019
  • frozywozy
    frozywozy
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    We need more counter to ballgroups so solo players can happily zerg surf next to each other with their faction. This is what Cyrodiil should be about. 3 fights on the map (one between EP And DC, one between EP and AD and one between DC and AD around the emp keeps. Anything else doesn't have a place in Cyrodiil. Groups who do an effort to fight outside of the transit line should be punished for it and discouraged right back into their faction zerg.
    Edited by frozywozy on August 1, 2019 8:50AM
    Frozn - Stamdk - AR50
    Frosted - Magplar - AR50
    Frodn - Magden - AR50
    Warmed - Magblade - AR50
    Mmfrozy - Magsorc - AR38
    Necrozn - Magcro - AR26
    Twitch.TV/FrozyESO
    PvP Group Builds
    • Fix Volendrung (spawn location - weapon white on the map causing the wielder to keep it forever - usable with emperorship)
    • Remove / Change CPs System, remove current campaigns and introduce one 30days with lock, one with no locks
    • Fix crashes when approaching a keep under attack because of bad / wrong rendering prioritization system
    • Change emperorship to value faction score points and not alliance points - see this and this
    • Fix long loading screens (mostly caused by players joining group out of rendering range)
    • Add 2 more quickslots to the wheel or add a different wheel for sieges weaponry only
    • Fix Balista Bolts not dealing damage on walls or doors if deployed at a certain place
    • Release bigger battlegrounds with 8 to 16 players per team and only two teams
    • Fix the permanent block animation - see examples : link1 link2 link3 link4 link5
    • Gives players 10 minutes to get back into Cyrodiil after relogging / crashing
    • Add a function to ignore the Claiming system of useless rewards
    • Improve the Mailing System / Rewards of the Worthy stacking
    • Assign specific group sizes to specific campaigns (24-16-8)
    • Fix Rams going crazy (through door or on top of gatehouse)
    • Make forward camps impossible to place near objectives
    • Make snares only available from ground effects abilities
    • Nerf the damage and the range from Heavy Overload
    • Change emperorship to last minimum 24hours
    • Fix body sliding after cc breaking too quickly
    • Fix the speed drop while jumping - see video
    • Fix loading screens when keeps upgrade
    • Bring back dynamic ulti regeneration
    • Fix speed bug (abilities locked)
    • Introduce dynamic population
    • Lower population cap by 20%
    • Add Snare Immunity potions
    • Bring Res Sickness
    • Fix gap closer bug
    • Fix health desync
    • Fix combat bug
    • Fix server lag
  • NBrookus
    NBrookus
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    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    The entire point is teamwork and coordination. A prepared team should feel powerful but its overkill at this point. Zero need for flankers, or a back tank or many other playstyles.

    A lot of that is simply lack of collision in this game. You can't really have formations. Aside from the Guard skill, which isn't that strong compared to many sources of self-mitigation, tanks can't truly body block and protect squishies, or hold breaches, or any other normal tank things. Most PVP "tanks" just spam CCs, which you don't need because so many damage skills have CC on them anyway.

    The PVP trinity is heals-support-damage. Which sucks for anyone who prefers a tank playstyle.

    If coordinated groups were so all-powerful and easy, we'd see a lot more of them actually being successful. It's not like the random PUG groups don't have members with Earthgore, Vicious Death, and all the exact same skills unlocked.
    PC NA
    Breton Magicka Sorcerer, Breton Magicka Templar, Dunmer Magicka DK, Bosmer Stamina NB, Nord Stamina Warden, Redguard Stamina Necro
    Dunmer Magicka DK, Argonian Magicka Templar, Altmer Magicka NB, Breton Magicka Sorcerer, Orc Stamina Warden
    Dunmer Magicka DK, Argonian Magicka Templar, Altmer Magicka Sorcerer
  • InvictusApollo
    InvictusApollo
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    NBrookus wrote: »
    If coordinated groups were so all-powerful and easy, we'd see a lot more of them actually being successful. It's not like the random PUG groups don't have members with Earthgore, Vicious Death, and all the exact same skills unlocked.

    They lack one vital component that prevents them from effectively challenge a ballgroup. And that is voice communication.

  • Minyassa
    Minyassa
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    You know what would go even farther toward stopping ball groups? Taking alliance skills entirely out of the meta, making it so that PvE players don't need one single thing out of Cyrodiil except for enjoying PvP play. Ball groups are what's recommended to PvE players who need Caltrops or whatever other Alliance skill the current meta says they need. Like every thread on "how do I get this alliance skill when I don't pvp" recommends either BG (which is a mess) or joining a ball group. Fix the need to get alliance skills on PvE characters and you depopularize ball groups by a massive percentage.
  • Alphaa
    Alphaa
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    LoreToo wrote: »
    This thread is useless cause any ball group have sige shield spamer with purge.
    Realy guys, you are talking around without using skills that were made to stop groups:
    1.negate
    2.caltrops
    3.time stop
    4.buggy meteor
    5.buggy mages guild rune that send your enemies into space
    6.permafrost
    7.shifting standart with major defile
    8.bombard and any roots
    9. Immobilising poisons
    10. Necro ult
    11. This absolutly stupid magsorc combination of overload HA and elegance
    12. Aoe stuns like streak
    13. Ice wall(zos fix this pls, still op)
    In terms of defense you can use:
    1. Shuffle
    2. RaT
    3. Running
    Is it enough or..?

    You missed 'Forum Tears' from your list.
  • Ender1310
    Ender1310
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    Ball groups are a visual eyesore on an otherwise beautiful combat oriented game. Loved the siege bug.
  • Rohamad_Ali
    Rohamad_Ali
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    Sandman929 wrote: »
    So strange to see people actively brainstorming ways to stop groups of players from working together to win fights.

    Not strange . We've been doing this since launch lol . The answer was Battlegrounds .
  • Heimpai
    Heimpai
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    Ackwalan wrote: »
    The anti ball group was accidentally fixed months ago. It was when siege was bugged and caused tons of damage, but ZOS fixed that bug. The only bug they've actually fixed. That was a nice week when those heal spamming tower circle runners hid.

    Good times..when that hit i was accused of hax..dropped 1 oil and killed 6 people 😂

    I was confused but definitely not complaining, helped deal with pop imbalances
  • Ender1310
    Ender1310
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    Alphaa wrote: »
    LoreToo wrote: »
    This thread is useless cause any ball group have sige shield spamer with purge.
    Realy guys, you are talking around without using skills that were made to stop groups:
    1.negate
    2.caltrops
    3.time stop
    4.buggy meteor
    5.buggy mages guild rune that send your enemies into space
    6.permafrost
    7.shifting standart with major defile
    8.bombard and any roots
    9. Immobilising poisons
    10. Necro ult
    11. This absolutly stupid magsorc combination of overload HA and elegance
    12. Aoe stuns like streak
    13. Ice wall(zos fix this pls, still op)
    In terms of defense you can use:
    1. Shuffle
    2. RaT
    3. Running
    Is it enough or..?

    You missed 'Forum Tears' from your list.

    Haha he said Bombard and any roots. I have yet to see a ball group that can be rooted. Lolz lolz lolz. Not sure if he plays now. Are you Russian bot?
  • Rin_Senya
    Rin_Senya
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    Ender1310 wrote: »
    Haha he said Bombard and any roots. I have yet to see a ball group that can be rooted. Lolz lolz lolz. Not sure if he plays now. Are you Russian bot?
    But...but... I thought that destroying a "rapid monkey" role by nerfing rapids would finally annihilate all ball groups because they wouldn't be able to move and play wothout it! Oh wait...

    So funny to read such kind of threads tbh. For five years people trying to figure out what makes "ball groups" so strong and nerf it. GL with your new attempts.
    Especially this one:
    Ender1310 wrote: »
    #1 When in a group of over 12, your ultimate regen is reduced by 25% while in Cyrodiil.
    can't wait to fight this 24 man LFG zerg that tryharding the map :trollface:
    Edited by Rin_Senya on August 3, 2019 8:07AM
    Anairi ~ EP | NA | AR50 - Dracarys
    Anaire ~ AD/EP | EU | AR50 - Banana Squad/Zerg Squad

  • zyk
    zyk
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    Rin_Senya wrote: »
    But...but... I thought that destroying a "rapid monkey" role by nerfing rapids would finally annihilate all ball groups because they wouldn't be able to move and play wothout it! Oh wait...
    I don't recall that at all. What prompted the most recent discussions about that was the across-the-board nerf to mobility with the exception of rapids. No reasonable person was saying that nerfing rapids would kill ball groups -- but rather making the point that nerfing other mobility functions without touching rapids had given ball groups an indirect buff that was felt on the battlefield. Which was true. The most marginal ball groups could escape from situations they could not before; and solo/small group players could not escape from situations they could previously. I think most players concerned about the topic understood the decent groups would adapt.

    Ball groups are a thing because this game is designed to be controller friendly without the ability to damage teammates. It's full of proactive AE spam which usually results in poor PVP in any game, IMO.
    Edited by zyk on August 3, 2019 8:27AM
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster . . . when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you"
    pvp videos: eso zyk on youtube
    enjin profile
    66
    I played Brutus at school once, and I was the one everybody stabbed
    lives · lived · will live - dies · died · will die
  • Rin_Senya
    Rin_Senya
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    zyk wrote: »
    I don't recall that at all. What prompted the most recent discussions about that was the across-the-board nerf to mobility with the exception of rapids. No reasonable person was saying that nerfing rapids would kill ball groups.
    Orly? Well check this thread:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5750390/#Comment_5750390
    It's just the one that took me no time to find. There were like 5 more of such kind of discussions and I'm not even gonna mention how many random comments about "rapids and purge bots are unfair, it's what carries ballgroups, remove/nerf these skills so they die!" existed on forum even BEFORE any mobility nerf.
    Edited by Rin_Senya on August 3, 2019 8:59AM
    Anairi ~ EP | NA | AR50 - Dracarys
    Anaire ~ AD/EP | EU | AR50 - Banana Squad/Zerg Squad

  • zyk
    zyk
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    Rin_Senya wrote: »
    zyk wrote: »
    I don't recall that at all. What prompted the most recent discussions about that was the across-the-board nerf to mobility with the exception of rapids. No reasonable person was saying that nerfing rapids would kill ball groups.
    Orly? Well check this thread:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5750390/#Comment_5750390
    It's just the one that took me no time to find. There were like 5 more of such kind of discussions and I'm not even gonna mention how many random comments about "rapids and purge bots are unfair, it's what carries ballgroups, remove/nerf these skills so they die!" existed on forum even BEFORE any mobility nerf.

    I remember the threads, but like I said, no reasonable poster was predicting the end of ball groups. I'm not going to go through each thread to quantify the opinions expressed, but IMO the nerf to rapids had exactly the impact I and many others expected it to have. I was not disappointed.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster . . . when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you"
    pvp videos: eso zyk on youtube
    enjin profile
    66
    I played Brutus at school once, and I was the one everybody stabbed
    lives · lived · will live - dies · died · will die
  • Dreyloch
    Dreyloch
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    NBrookus wrote: »
    If coordinated groups were so all-powerful and easy, we'd see a lot more of them actually being successful. It's not like the random PUG groups don't have members with Earthgore, Vicious Death, and all the exact same skills unlocked.

    They lack one vital component that prevents them from effectively challenge a ballgroup. And that is voice communication.

    ^^This is why there's soo many loose pugs running around. Many of them don't want, or can't join voice comms for whatever reason. It used to be that all kinds of groups with some type of leader had this. At the very least players could listen to what's going on. You don't have to speak and have your precious little eggshell broken. Alas, these days no one wants to do this and really make a difference. They just wanna be out there getting slaughtered till it's time to have dinner or log for the night.

    Personally, I have no issue with joining a group that requires voice comms. Wether or not the lead is good will determine if I stay. I would try it myself (leading) but it's really hard to talk and focus while trying to go thru rotations and keeping yourself alive ROFL. I truly applaud those that do. Wish there was more of them!!
    "The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"
  • frozywozy
    frozywozy
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    @zyk - What is wrong in your opinion is the fact that ZOS did a bad move to nerf mobility in general. Swift and Speedpots nerfs were needed but reducing because of the maximum speed you could reach but the Major Expedition nerf to 4seconds to every ability in the game was bad. People should have complained about this instead of asking ZOS to also nerf the mobility of ballgroups. Roots and snares are a plague, especially in a game without cooldowns or diminishing returns.

    I can't believe caltrops is going back to 50% snares effect. ugh
    Edited by frozywozy on August 5, 2019 3:34PM
    Frozn - Stamdk - AR50
    Frosted - Magplar - AR50
    Frodn - Magden - AR50
    Warmed - Magblade - AR50
    Mmfrozy - Magsorc - AR38
    Necrozn - Magcro - AR26
    Twitch.TV/FrozyESO
    PvP Group Builds
    • Fix Volendrung (spawn location - weapon white on the map causing the wielder to keep it forever - usable with emperorship)
    • Remove / Change CPs System, remove current campaigns and introduce one 30days with lock, one with no locks
    • Fix crashes when approaching a keep under attack because of bad / wrong rendering prioritization system
    • Change emperorship to value faction score points and not alliance points - see this and this
    • Fix long loading screens (mostly caused by players joining group out of rendering range)
    • Add 2 more quickslots to the wheel or add a different wheel for sieges weaponry only
    • Fix Balista Bolts not dealing damage on walls or doors if deployed at a certain place
    • Release bigger battlegrounds with 8 to 16 players per team and only two teams
    • Fix the permanent block animation - see examples : link1 link2 link3 link4 link5
    • Gives players 10 minutes to get back into Cyrodiil after relogging / crashing
    • Add a function to ignore the Claiming system of useless rewards
    • Improve the Mailing System / Rewards of the Worthy stacking
    • Assign specific group sizes to specific campaigns (24-16-8)
    • Fix Rams going crazy (through door or on top of gatehouse)
    • Make forward camps impossible to place near objectives
    • Make snares only available from ground effects abilities
    • Nerf the damage and the range from Heavy Overload
    • Change emperorship to last minimum 24hours
    • Fix body sliding after cc breaking too quickly
    • Fix the speed drop while jumping - see video
    • Fix loading screens when keeps upgrade
    • Bring back dynamic ulti regeneration
    • Fix speed bug (abilities locked)
    • Introduce dynamic population
    • Lower population cap by 20%
    • Add Snare Immunity potions
    • Bring Res Sickness
    • Fix gap closer bug
    • Fix health desync
    • Fix combat bug
    • Fix server lag
  • xylena_lazarow
    xylena_lazarow
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    Rin_Senya wrote: »
    I'm not even gonna mention how many random comments about "rapids and purge bots are unfair, it's what carries ballgroups, remove/nerf these skills so they die!"

    Organized groups shouldn't be immune to DoTs or debuffs because they have one or more "purge monkeys" spamming one button for the duration of the fight. It dumbs down group play and makes even skilled groups look like brainless spammers from the outside, which is why we have threads like this.

    Rework Efficient Purge as a lower cost personal purge, so even specs like Stam Sorc have a realistic option for countering the ranged DoT meta. Skilled 12-16 ball groups would adapt without much issue, while the garbage 24-man guild zergs being carried by purge spam would rightfully wipe to pugs.
  • Durham
    Durham
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    Get rid of the automated smart healing system. You will get rid of 75% of the lag. You will finally end ball groups.
    Single target heals/ directional heals should be use the most..... large aoe heals should always be extreamily expensive and tactically used.
    Edited by Durham on August 17, 2019 12:56PM
    PVP DEADWAIT
    PVE Eternal Destiny
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    Durham wrote: »
    Get rid of the automated smart healing system. You will get rid of 75% of the lag. You will finally end ball groups.
    Single target heals/ directional heals should be use the most..... large aoe heals should always be extreamily expensive and tactically used.

    or you can just limit group size to 12..........
    Retired werewolf player, currently getting carried by whatever the FOTM is

    Characters:
    EU
    DC - Octius Ciel - Magicka Sorcerer - Breton
    DC - Evelina Septim - Magicka Templar - Breton
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    DC - Zireael the White Flame - Stamina Sorcerer - Bosmer
    EP - Qbi-One-Kenobi -Stamina DK - Argonian
    AD - Anconeus - Magicka Nightblade - High Elf
    EP - Cirilla Élen Riannon - Magica Dragonknight - Dark Elf
    AD - The Cub of Cintra - Stamina Nightblade - Bosmer
    AD - Alinare Larentius - StaminaTemplar - Redguard
    DC - The Alt-Knight - Stamina Dragonknight - Nord
    DC - Féreldir - Magicka Warden - Argonian
    AD - Kuvirá - Stamina Sorcerer - Redguard
    EP - 1vX Material - Stamina Warden - Orc
    EP - Fenrir the Windwalker - Stamina Sorcerer - Redguard
    EP - Q_Q Mancer Stamina Necromancer - Dark Elf

    NA
    EP - Sister Q - Stamina Sorcerer - Nord

    Trials
    vAA + HM: Completed
    vHRC + HM: Completed
    vSO + HM: Completed
    vMoL+ HM: Completed (Dro-m'Athra Destroyer x 2)
    vMA: Completed, and with 10 characters as Flawless Conquerors.
    vDSA: Completed
    vAS HM: Completed (Immortal Redeemer)
    vHoF + HM: Completed
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    vBRP
    vSS HM: Completed
  • InvictusApollo
    InvictusApollo
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    Qbiken wrote: »
    Durham wrote: »
    Get rid of the automated smart healing system. You will get rid of 75% of the lag. You will finally end ball groups.
    Single target heals/ directional heals should be use the most..... large aoe heals should always be extreamily expensive and tactically used.

    or you can just limit group size to 12..........

    This would only work if aoe healing was targeting only group members. Otherwise ballgroups would sipmply form two or three groups.
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    Qbiken wrote: »
    Durham wrote: »
    Get rid of the automated smart healing system. You will get rid of 75% of the lag. You will finally end ball groups.
    Single target heals/ directional heals should be use the most..... large aoe heals should always be extreamily expensive and tactically used.

    or you can just limit group size to 12..........

    This would only work if aoe healing was targeting only group members. Otherwise ballgroups would sipmply form two or three groups.

    I would be all for that too tbh.
    Retired werewolf player, currently getting carried by whatever the FOTM is

    Characters:
    EU
    DC - Octius Ciel - Magicka Sorcerer - Breton
    DC - Evelina Septim - Magicka Templar - Breton
    EP - Josephine Tharn - Magicka Templar - Breton
    DC - Zireael the White Flame - Stamina Sorcerer - Bosmer
    EP - Qbi-One-Kenobi -Stamina DK - Argonian
    AD - Anconeus - Magicka Nightblade - High Elf
    EP - Cirilla Élen Riannon - Magica Dragonknight - Dark Elf
    AD - The Cub of Cintra - Stamina Nightblade - Bosmer
    AD - Alinare Larentius - StaminaTemplar - Redguard
    DC - The Alt-Knight - Stamina Dragonknight - Nord
    DC - Féreldir - Magicka Warden - Argonian
    AD - Kuvirá - Stamina Sorcerer - Redguard
    EP - 1vX Material - Stamina Warden - Orc
    EP - Fenrir the Windwalker - Stamina Sorcerer - Redguard
    EP - Q_Q Mancer Stamina Necromancer - Dark Elf

    NA
    EP - Sister Q - Stamina Sorcerer - Nord

    Trials
    vAA + HM: Completed
    vHRC + HM: Completed
    vSO + HM: Completed
    vMoL+ HM: Completed (Dro-m'Athra Destroyer x 2)
    vMA: Completed, and with 10 characters as Flawless Conquerors.
    vDSA: Completed
    vAS HM: Completed (Immortal Redeemer)
    vHoF + HM: Completed
    vCR +3 (Gryphon Heart)
    vBRP
    vSS HM: Completed
  • Somnilux
    Somnilux
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    Qbiken wrote: »
    Durham wrote: »
    Get rid of the automated smart healing system. You will get rid of 75% of the lag. You will finally end ball groups.
    Single target heals/ directional heals should be use the most..... large aoe heals should always be extreamily expensive and tactically used.

    or you can just limit group size to 12..........

    This would only work if aoe healing was targeting only group members. Otherwise ballgroups would sipmply form two or three groups.

    Do you know how many healers an organized 24 man group has? 6-8, plus 2 support purgers.

    We'd just split them evenly between the groups and be fine.

    And this would just hurt my ability to help the faction pugs when I'm running and healing them through messes, and change absolutely nothing.

    There is nothing wrong with organized guild group pvp. The good groups with higher skill, better organization and better leadership always outperform even with numbers differences. The only problem is when entire factions stack on keeps, or multiple factions fight as it causes severe performance issues all over the server, and that rarely has anything to do with ball groups. Heck, we're usually the groups that stay away from the faction zergs and spread combat out more, taking a lot of the mess off the server.

    Some of the ball groups endlessly farm AP, but speaking from experience with multiple AD guilds, most of us focus on fighting other guilds groups or campaign objectives.
    Luxe Khanna - AD, Rank 44 Argonian Magblade Healer
    Crystala Khanna - AD, Rank 32 Khajiit Stamplar Werewolf
    Guilds: Fantasia, Dominant Dominion.
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