PSA - STOP THE WEREWOLF/VAMPIRE GRIEIFING - Want to be a were/vamp? Think again!

Nimerian · April 2014

Please report the people doing that + even probably ban them for immense stupidity, yes, new players need to have easy access to vampire/werewolf since getting it early and having time to level it up is really important. No reason to have to compete with noob no-lifers camping out the spots.

ReptarRaa · April 2014

they should just have the wolves and vamps spawn in all areas not just one area for each faction. these guilds cant camp the entire world

Stiler · April 2014

I can not fathom why on earth the werewolf/vampires were not RANDOM super-rare spawns, it shouldn't be "Always spawn in x location or zone." rather they should have a very very low random % chance to spawn (at the right moon cycle) all over the world, in ANY zone away from crowded areas.

Coming across either should have been something unique/memorable, not something you stand around with 50+ other people trying to get a hit in or have them aggro to you.

Completely disregards the point and power of both creatures.

Nox_Aeterna · April 2014

Reymas wrote: »

ZOS_TristanK wrote: »

Hi there, folks. Thank you for letting us know. We will investigate exactly what's happening here based on reports and tickets that you submit. In order to help us investigate more quickly, when you see an incident, please include the phrase "werewolf/vampire camping" in your ticket.

@ZOS_TristanK‌

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌

I take SERIOUS issue with this.

I really hope that ZOS doesn't end this war. What if someone is RPing a Vigilant of Stendarr or Dawnguard or Silver Hand and this is how they have fun, preventing people from being infected? I don't do it, but if ZOS has allowed the mobs to be killable then killing them is not griefing or trolling, it's part of the conflict between undead and humans.

It's already weird and immersion-breaking enough that Werewolves in WW form and stage 5 vampires aren't KOS to all players and attacked by town guards.

Simple solution: make the mobs that infect players unkillable, but they only spawn for 30-60 seconds before they disappear again. You're still ruining the game for people who want to be vampire hunters (real fighter's guild agents) but at least it will curb the QQ.

Also how is it possible for Vamps to be in the fighter's guild when they are minions of Molag Bal? Makes no sense. They should be barred from the quest-line IMO.

This war is seriously one of the most interesting, dynamic and awesome parts of the game. I take no sides. I don't want to be undead nor do I kill their spawns but being in a world like this feels immersive and awesome. Taking it away would lose that.

I hope those RPers created their names , because im loving griefing the griefers by reporting their names , atleast the ones i know i can heh :P.

Maybe they wont lose their chars , but i cant think of anything that would annoy me more than to lose ones name :P.

jaron_edow · April 2014

I disagree completely, getting vamp/werewolf is basic content that has been easily accessible in the last 3 elder scroll games. This isn't special rare content that alters the game drastically, from what I've heard both can pretty much be killed in a few attacks from anyone with the fighters guild skill line, As a person who works 40+ a week I don't have time to sit around for days on end at a spawn, I really don't even have the time to camp the spawn as is, but at least I have a reasonable chance of getting to enjoy the content I pay for. Plus who do you think is going to continue to pay to play after the free month expires? It sure isn't going to be school age kids without jobs and unemployed adults that actually have the time to sit around at various spawns searching for a bite. It's going to people who have the money to feed a monthly fee without switching to another game because they overplayed the game.

Emopower · April 2014

I think in the end, People just see "Vampire Camping" from one point of view, for example:

You go to a spawn waiting for a blood fiend, 5 other people are there and kill it before you get the bite. Now your upset and automatically assume its a guild camping vampires and making money. imagine if they got banned after you reported them, then imagine you were that player you reported, who was actually just like you trying to get the bite. Now he's banned/Your banned for playing the game and "Griefing". Whether your griefing or not you can't assume they are. And as another example, some people just love to kill things over and over such as "bloodfiends" I still go back to Stonefalls to kill mobs, because I need to? No. Because I'm a griefer? No. Because I like killing things in a few hits and acting like a god.

Some people sell bites, some people don't. You don't have to buy a bite, so when you willingly give your gold away to someone, your doing just that giving your gold to someone. And if Vampire scamming/WW Scamming was bannable, you wouldn't see anyone doing it.

I suggest, the "Buyers Beware" Policy, meaning don't pay for something your not guaranteed to get. And if you do pay for something your not guaranteed to get it's your loss, I don't trust strangers with my money so they don't get it.

Arkandae · April 2014

Plus who do you think is going to continue to pay to play after the free month expires? It sure isn't going to be school age kids without jobs and unemployed adults that actually have the time to sit around at various spawns searching for a bite.

They will pay if there's something to do. Look at wow. And kids come back every 2 month here (for holydays).

It's going to people who have the money to feed a monthly fee without switching to another game because they overplayed the game.

They can pay eso (which is expensive), they can pay for another game, but they can't pay a monthly fee ?

(btw I agree that the griefing is stupid)

Elhim · April 2014

I agree that this was designed badly. Long day night cycles with mobs that only spawn at night and only under certain conditions that can be griefed? Why would I keep paying people to make bad decisions like that?

ZunaRoath · April 2014

Sorry my english.
I have been six nights, SIX! searching for werewolves, and I am so tired of waiting for them. The people selling bites from 10k to 100k (YES 100k!!! o_O), and guilds camping the spawn points, when the ww spawn, they kill it, and then they sell the bites.
I just want to be werewolf for roleplaying, JUST FOR ROLEPLAYING. And I can't because of this people. Please, do something -.-

A friend had an idea to stop this:
The ones who are already werewolf or vampire can't see the werewolves or vampires NPCs to be one of them, so, they can't kill them (and then sell the bites), because they can't see them, and the people who wants to be ww or vamp can be hitten by the ww or vamp because NO ONE KILLED the NPCs.

Its a GREAT idea, and it would be awesome if it could be like that.

Please, Zenimax, do something, I'm so tired of waiting for werewolves, I won't pay 10k-100k to be one of them and then the one who was going to bite me gets offline with my money, because this is happening (three people did yesterday in The Rift). Always I think when the night comes: "In this night, I'll be a werewolf." And... another night with no success... Six nights with no success.

Thanks, I really like this game, I really like Elder Scrolls, but this is... dah...

sinz_xb16_ESO · April 2014

I think it's also important for people to know that both the Werewolf and Vampire skill lines are horribly bugged at the moment and not working properly at all. Right now it's not even worth investing the time in nor paying a high amount of gold trying to become one, you're just gonna get disappointed with what you end up with.

Harakh · April 2014

I will bite every one who pays me 20K

Prospero_ESO · April 2014

Emopower wrote: »

You go to a spawn waiting for a blood fiend, 5 other people are there and kill it before you get the bite. Now your upset and automatically assume its a guild camping vampires and making money. imagine if they got banned after you reported them, then imagine you were that player you reported, who was actually just like you trying to get the bite. Now he's banned/Your banned for playing the game and "Griefing". Whether your griefing or not you can't assume they are. And as another example, some people just love to kill things over and over such as "bloodfiends" I still go back to Stonefalls to kill mobs, because I need to? No. Because I'm a griefer? No. Because I like killing things in a few hits and acting like a god.

There are people that are doing that over and over again for the purpose of money, trolling or both. Nobody talks about people who are killing the npc´s because they want to become a vamp/wolf themselves and somebody comes to late. Nobody will be banned for that for sure.

As long as there are people who feed griefers money, they will not go away, calling zenimax is a bit meh to be honest. This is a community created problem and could be solved easily by the community.

Kiwi · April 2014

i would bite people for free if i wasn't sure they would turn around and start trying to sell it.
but as it is i have not and will not bite anyone

enubis99 · April 2014

Indeed there are such people, killing vampires or werewolves to secure a market for themselves. there are people killing vampires or werewolves for RP reasons, there are people killing vampires or werewolves just to be ***. However, anyone trying to defend any of this, all I can say is this.

So you are better at the game because you got a bunch of friends or guild to wipe vampires/werewolves out so you can earn a 30k or 100k once a week? If that's the case then I seriously doubt you know what it means to be good at a game, monetizing in such a manner is just downright patheic, on top of that fact that money really means little in this game.

So you want to RP killing vampires and / or werewolves to prevent others from becoming one? Or is that just a convenient excuse to be a ***? Roleplaying existed for people to have fun with one another to immerse in such, not to make other people frustrated or upset.

Personally I even left House Nysarra, because their leader was actively calling members to hunt werewolf spawns for RP reasons. It's just ridiculous and downright disgusting.

In regards to those who are having such issues, just report it. There is and will never be a need to kill those spawns purposely. All the best for you guys who want to become vampires/werewolves.

AlliN · April 2014

Well, the system was intended to be a nice roleplay feature, where packs and coteries decide, who will join them or not.

But people happened.

People are the reason why we can't have nice things.

jscottallenub17_ESO · April 2014

AlliN wrote: »

People are the reason why we can't have nice things.

A sad truism of life.

FusRoJosh · April 2014

Skeksi wrote: »

Except this isn't an 'exploit'. The vampire and werewolf mobs are just that, mobs. There is nothing to stop people killing them, and there may be good roleplaying reasons to kill them.

Also there is no necessity to become a vampire or a werewolf. You may like to become one, but it doesn't impact on the playability of the game. Any rare mob is likely to be farmed. There will be people with the time and inclination to prevent other people from accessing these mobs, but they can't do it forever. Just be patient and seek out the mobs another time, or find someone who is willing to sell you the bite for much cheaper than these people are asking.

They may be griefers, but you don't have to allow them to make you feel bad.

This.
You can't expect the teachers to solve every problem in school, the government to solve every problem in life, or the 'devs' to solve every problem in a MMO.

This problem is created by people, not the game. Just like life, sometimes you have to find a way to work around other people.

Roechacca · April 2014

Here's a fix . Stop wanting to be a vampire or a werewolf . Try being a normal toon without silver and sunlight weaknesses . Every Guild player with specials against undead are gonna *** you in pvp anyways . Unless youre just doing it to Roleplay... then I say get on with your bad self

MornaBaine · April 2014

Midgardian wrote: »

They should just implement special quest lines that allow you to become a vampire or werewolf, hence solving this problem.

This. I did not pay a small fortune for this game plus a monthly sub in order to be denied content by a bunch of sociopaths.

MornaBaine · April 2014

Paske wrote: »

Its an MMO.

People found a way to monetize a nieche.

Its not a problem, its brilliant !
You want to be better then them ? Camp the NPCs your self, get biten, do the same for profit.

Putting some effort into a goal makes that goal worth while.

No one is "stealing from you". They are simply better at this game then you

Fact that we have all payed for the game doesn't mean you can simply log in, get stuff, because you paid and are entitled to get whatever you want.

I don't actually have an issue with people selling bites if that's what they want to do. I DO have an issue with griefers camping the spawns in order to deny other players content they have paid for just like everyone else. This really needed to be implemented differently and I am surprised Zenimax didn't see this coming.

Arisen · April 2014

This isn't true for many guilds. My friend and I started a vamp guild before the game even launched, primarily for role-playing. Whenever we get an opportunity, we will bite our most active members free of charge. I agree that the defective guilds that would do that, just to make a profit are utterly sick and twisted, and in efforts to quell the map chat a bit, we try to invite who we can to be added onto our bite list.

Doowie · April 2014

I kill the werewolves as soon as I see them. This is so I can still make players give me 15k to 30k gold ingame for my bite

I'm playing the game as Zenimax allows me too. If I happen to run by and those werewolves aggro me ... well I better kill them to make them stop and oh look I get crafting materials from as well.

But I can taste the tears of people in this thread, nom nom nom

ItsMeToo · April 2014

enubis99 wrote: »

Indeed there are such people, killing vampires or werewolves to secure a market for themselves. there are people killing vampires or werewolves for RP reasons, there are people killing vampires or werewolves just to be ***. However, anyone trying to defend any of this, all I can say is this.

So you are better at the game because you got a bunch of friends or guild to wipe vampires/werewolves out so you can earn a 30k or 100k once a week? If that's the case then I seriously doubt you know what it means to be good at a game, monetizing in such a manner is just downright patheic, on top of that fact that money really means little in this game.

So you want to RP killing vampires and / or werewolves to prevent others from becoming one? Or is that just a convenient excuse to be a ***? Roleplaying existed for people to have fun with one another to immerse in such, not to make other people frustrated or upset.

Personally I even left House Nysarra, because their leader was actively calling members to hunt werewolf spawns for RP reasons. It's just ridiculous and downright disgusting.

In regards to those who are having such issues, just report it. There is and will never be a need to kill those spawns purposely. All the best for you guys who want to become vampires/werewolves.

I understand your point of view, but give the full picture when accusing others on how they wish to play. This is also posted for my Guild Members to follow on our Website and in a thread here on the ESO Forums. Not all of my Family goes out and kills mutts. It's part of becoming a vampire, a rite of passage, and every once in a while I ask them to go kill some more.

"I am the House Mother of House Nyssara on the NA server. We do not and will not sell Vampire bites. If any of my House members sell bites and I find out about it with proof, Mother will do something about it. Up to and including removal from my House. We don't promise bites to join the House, but bites will and do happed between Family members first. We expect a long-term commitment to our Family and not just joining to get bitten then leave.

I roll-play a vampire that hates mutts, (aka werewolves), see my back-story about Nyssara Nor on our website. When I send out my Family to kill mutts, they will even be killing the mutt spawns. I told them to use better judgment if someone is waiting to get infected. They should wait if asked, then kill the mutts when people leave. Killing mutts is just part of our roll-playing and not meant to case grief to our alliances.

Mother has spoken… fades into the shadows…"

Roechacca · April 2014

Holy mother of RP ... I'm so glad I don't want this game option ...

MornaBaine · April 2014

ItsMeToo wrote: »

enubis99 wrote: »

Indeed there are such people, killing vampires or werewolves to secure a market for themselves. there are people killing vampires or werewolves for RP reasons, there are people killing vampires or werewolves just to be ***. However, anyone trying to defend any of this, all I can say is this.

So you are better at the game because you got a bunch of friends or guild to wipe vampires/werewolves out so you can earn a 30k or 100k once a week? If that's the case then I seriously doubt you know what it means to be good at a game, monetizing in such a manner is just downright patheic, on top of that fact that money really means little in this game.

So you want to RP killing vampires and / or werewolves to prevent others from becoming one? Or is that just a convenient excuse to be a ***? Roleplaying existed for people to have fun with one another to immerse in such, not to make other people frustrated or upset.

Personally I even left House Nysarra, because their leader was actively calling members to hunt werewolf spawns for RP reasons. It's just ridiculous and downright disgusting.

In regards to those who are having such issues, just report it. There is and will never be a need to kill those spawns purposely. All the best for you guys who want to become vampires/werewolves.

I understand your point of view, but give the full picture when accusing others on how they wish to play. This is also posted for my Guild Members to follow on our Website and in a thread here on the ESO Forums. Not all of my Family goes out and kills mutts. It's part of becoming a vampire, a rite of passage, and every once in a while I ask them to go kill some more.

"I am the House Mother of House Nyssara on the NA server. We do not and will not sell Vampire bites. If any of my House members sell bites and I find out about it with proof, Mother will do something about it. Up to and including removal from my House. We don't promise bites to join the House, but bites will and do happed between Family members first. We expect a long-term commitment to our Family and not just joining to get bitten then leave.

I roll-play a vampire that hates mutts, (aka werewolves), see my back-story about Nyssara Nor on our website. When I send out my Family to kill mutts, they will even be killing the mutt spawns. I told them to use better judgment if someone is waiting to get infected. They should wait if asked, then kill the mutts when people leave. Killing mutts is just part of our roll-playing and not meant to case grief to our alliances.

Mother has spoken… fades into the shadows…"

There are plenty of NPC werewolves to kill in the game that aren't the ones that infect others so there's no real RP reason to kill those. Focusing on Player werewolves in PvP is the best way to roleplay an active hatred of werewolves by vampires. I eventually expect to see full out wars between the two factions... if we can get Zen to deal with the damn griefers so that these factions can actually get built up a bit!

o_0 · April 2014

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

TheSzerdi wrote: »

Is there one? Or is it whatever you can get away with like in EVE?

Say you offer vamp bite for 20k, collect the gold, then walk away. Will ESO punish people for scamming or is it legit?

Edit to add: I searched support and forums, but didn't see an answer.

Scamming violates our terms of service and we will address it accordingly.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/75477/player-scam-policy/p2

Now that this has been answered, let the joy and rage begin.

ItsMeToo · April 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

ItsMeToo wrote: »

enubis99 wrote: »

Indeed there are such people, killing vampires or werewolves to secure a market for themselves. there are people killing vampires or werewolves for RP reasons, there are people killing vampires or werewolves just to be ***. However, anyone trying to defend any of this, all I can say is this.

So you are better at the game because you got a bunch of friends or guild to wipe vampires/werewolves out so you can earn a 30k or 100k once a week? If that's the case then I seriously doubt you know what it means to be good at a game, monetizing in such a manner is just downright patheic, on top of that fact that money really means little in this game.

So you want to RP killing vampires and / or werewolves to prevent others from becoming one? Or is that just a convenient excuse to be a ***? Roleplaying existed for people to have fun with one another to immerse in such, not to make other people frustrated or upset.

Personally I even left House Nysarra, because their leader was actively calling members to hunt werewolf spawns for RP reasons. It's just ridiculous and downright disgusting.

In regards to those who are having such issues, just report it. There is and will never be a need to kill those spawns purposely. All the best for you guys who want to become vampires/werewolves.

I understand your point of view, but give the full picture when accusing others on how they wish to play. This is also posted for my Guild Members to follow on our Website and in a thread here on the ESO Forums. Not all of my Family goes out and kills mutts. It's part of becoming a vampire, a rite of passage, and every once in a while I ask them to go kill some more.

"I am the House Mother of House Nyssara on the NA server. We do not and will not sell Vampire bites. If any of my House members sell bites and I find out about it with proof, Mother will do something about it. Up to and including removal from my House. We don't promise bites to join the House, but bites will and do happed between Family members first. We expect a long-term commitment to our Family and not just joining to get bitten then leave.

I roll-play a vampire that hates mutts, (aka werewolves), see my back-story about Nyssara Nor on our website. When I send out my Family to kill mutts, they will even be killing the mutt spawns. I told them to use better judgment if someone is waiting to get infected. They should wait if asked, then kill the mutts when people leave. Killing mutts is just part of our roll-playing and not meant to case grief to our alliances.

Mother has spoken… fades into the shadows…"

There are plenty of NPC werewolves to kill in the game that aren't the ones that infect others so there's no real RP reason to kill those. Focusing on Player werewolves in PvP is the best way to roleplay an active hatred of werewolves by vampires. I eventually expect to see full out wars between the two factions... if we can get Zen to deal with the damn griefers so that these factions can actually get built up a bit!

Not all of our members want to PvP and if they see mutts in their travels and want to kill them, they know my rules.

MornaBaine · April 2014

ItsMeToo wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

ItsMeToo wrote: »

enubis99 wrote: »

Indeed there are such people, killing vampires or werewolves to secure a market for themselves. there are people killing vampires or werewolves for RP reasons, there are people killing vampires or werewolves just to be ***. However, anyone trying to defend any of this, all I can say is this.

So you are better at the game because you got a bunch of friends or guild to wipe vampires/werewolves out so you can earn a 30k or 100k once a week? If that's the case then I seriously doubt you know what it means to be good at a game, monetizing in such a manner is just downright patheic, on top of that fact that money really means little in this game.

So you want to RP killing vampires and / or werewolves to prevent others from becoming one? Or is that just a convenient excuse to be a ***? Roleplaying existed for people to have fun with one another to immerse in such, not to make other people frustrated or upset.

Personally I even left House Nysarra, because their leader was actively calling members to hunt werewolf spawns for RP reasons. It's just ridiculous and downright disgusting.

In regards to those who are having such issues, just report it. There is and will never be a need to kill those spawns purposely. All the best for you guys who want to become vampires/werewolves.

I understand your point of view, but give the full picture when accusing others on how they wish to play. This is also posted for my Guild Members to follow on our Website and in a thread here on the ESO Forums. Not all of my Family goes out and kills mutts. It's part of becoming a vampire, a rite of passage, and every once in a while I ask them to go kill some more.

"I am the House Mother of House Nyssara on the NA server. We do not and will not sell Vampire bites. If any of my House members sell bites and I find out about it with proof, Mother will do something about it. Up to and including removal from my House. We don't promise bites to join the House, but bites will and do happed between Family members first. We expect a long-term commitment to our Family and not just joining to get bitten then leave.

I roll-play a vampire that hates mutts, (aka werewolves), see my back-story about Nyssara Nor on our website. When I send out my Family to kill mutts, they will even be killing the mutt spawns. I told them to use better judgment if someone is waiting to get infected. They should wait if asked, then kill the mutts when people leave. Killing mutts is just part of our roll-playing and not meant to case grief to our alliances.

Mother has spoken… fades into the shadows…"

There are plenty of NPC werewolves to kill in the game that aren't the ones that infect others so there's no real RP reason to kill those. Focusing on Player werewolves in PvP is the best way to roleplay an active hatred of werewolves by vampires. I eventually expect to see full out wars between the two factions... if we can get Zen to deal with the damn griefers so that these factions can actually get built up a bit!

Not all of our members want to PvP and if they see mutts in their travels and want to kill them, they know my rules.

Then "your rules" need to include not ruining the game for other players. The only place that kind of player aggression is acceptable IS in PvP.

ItsMeToo · April 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

ItsMeToo wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

ItsMeToo wrote: »

enubis99 wrote: »

Indeed there are such people, killing vampires or werewolves to secure a market for themselves. there are people killing vampires or werewolves for RP reasons, there are people killing vampires or werewolves just to be ***. However, anyone trying to defend any of this, all I can say is this.

So you are better at the game because you got a bunch of friends or guild to wipe vampires/werewolves out so you can earn a 30k or 100k once a week? If that's the case then I seriously doubt you know what it means to be good at a game, monetizing in such a manner is just downright patheic, on top of that fact that money really means little in this game.

So you want to RP killing vampires and / or werewolves to prevent others from becoming one? Or is that just a convenient excuse to be a ***? Roleplaying existed for people to have fun with one another to immerse in such, not to make other people frustrated or upset.

Personally I even left House Nysarra, because their leader was actively calling members to hunt werewolf spawns for RP reasons. It's just ridiculous and downright disgusting.

In regards to those who are having such issues, just report it. There is and will never be a need to kill those spawns purposely. All the best for you guys who want to become vampires/werewolves.

I understand your point of view, but give the full picture when accusing others on how they wish to play. This is also posted for my Guild Members to follow on our Website and in a thread here on the ESO Forums. Not all of my Family goes out and kills mutts. It's part of becoming a vampire, a rite of passage, and every once in a while I ask them to go kill some more.

"I am the House Mother of House Nyssara on the NA server. We do not and will not sell Vampire bites. If any of my House members sell bites and I find out about it with proof, Mother will do something about it. Up to and including removal from my House. We don't promise bites to join the House, but bites will and do happed between Family members first. We expect a long-term commitment to our Family and not just joining to get bitten then leave.

I roll-play a vampire that hates mutts, (aka werewolves), see my back-story about Nyssara Nor on our website. When I send out my Family to kill mutts, they will even be killing the mutt spawns. I told them to use better judgment if someone is waiting to get infected. They should wait if asked, then kill the mutts when people leave. Killing mutts is just part of our roll-playing and not meant to case grief to our alliances.

Mother has spoken… fades into the shadows…"

There are plenty of NPC werewolves to kill in the game that aren't the ones that infect others so there's no real RP reason to kill those. Focusing on Player werewolves in PvP is the best way to roleplay an active hatred of werewolves by vampires. I eventually expect to see full out wars between the two factions... if we can get Zen to deal with the damn griefers so that these factions can actually get built up a bit!

Not all of our members want to PvP and if they see mutts in their travels and want to kill them, they know my rules.

Then "your rules" need to include not ruining the game for other players. The only place that kind of player aggression is acceptable IS in PvP.

Then you have missed my point and ZOS will sort this out.

yodased · April 2014

Reymas wrote: »

You're still ruining the game for people who want to be vampire hunters (real fighter's guild agents) but at least it will curb the QQ.

This war is seriously one of the most interesting, dynamic and awesome parts of the game. I take no sides. I don't want to be undead nor do I kill their spawns but being in a world like this feels immersive and awesome. Taking it away would lose that.

The thing that most conveniently forget is that the vamps that turn humans are rare spawns. You can still kill millions of vampires all day long until you are sick of garlic in the game.

You say let people play the way they want, but only those are aligning to your personal likes and dislikes.

A MMO is only as strong as its community, this community so far is splintered. I think its a point to be made that eventually this will all iron out and a true ESO community will emerge. The growing pains will suck though.