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Protecting the Guilty?
Earthewen
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I'd like to talk just for a bit about why it is so important to protect the guilty. Many people in this game do not cheat but have been trolled and victimized by those who have through whispers and zone trolling, etc. Many people have been called names for suspecting the cheaters and exploiters, and now many of us know that we were indeed not crazy but accurate in our suspicions.
My question is why do we find it necessary to allow those who have cheated and exploited to maintain their fake "honor" or their ability to maintain, "I'm just a good player" crap? I get it that we don't name and shame in this game, but keeping things completely hidden cannot possibly help in changing the current climate. Don't name people necessarily by real names, but these are pretend names. Why not have a wall of shame for those pretend names? Why protect the victimizers?
[snip]
[Edit for bait.]
Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on August 17, 2019 3:09PM My question is why do we find it necessary to allow those who have cheated and exploited to maintain their fake "honor" or their ability to maintain, "I'm just a good player" crap? I get it that we don't name and shame in this game, but keeping things completely hidden cannot possibly help in changing the current climate. Don't name people necessarily by real names, but these are pretend names. Why not have a wall of shame for those pretend names? Why protect the victimizers?
[snip]
[Edit for bait.]
25
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Unstable.Pixel✭✭✭Because it would hurt all the little sweaty snowflakes' feelings. ZoS is all about hugs.I swear to drunk i'm not god6 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Because 99% of the time, they are actually good players. Everytime a 1vXer or small scale group wipes a zerg, they are automatically assumed to be cheaters. I have been both sides of the fence, so I know.
Everytime I see in zone chat about a said cheater in say, Alessia LM or Ash farm, when I go and check it, it turns out to be a well-known 1vXer or streamer or a troll tank. When I fight them, usually it ends up in a stalemate and we walk away after exchanging blows for a few minutes. Otherwise, one of us dies after a prolonged fight or in a way, that I know for a fact that it is legit.
On the other hand, when I get a jump on a bunch of players, running bad builds, and get away with killing ten of them, you should see the whispers I get calling me things including hacker/cheater/exploiter, etc. After all, it is easier to call someone a cheater than get good both at playing and at theorycrafting OP builds.Edited by susmitds on August 17, 2019 2:43PM57 -
therift✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Because incontrovertible proof of a cheat is not as simple as players may think, and because publishing names serves little useful purpose beyond catharsis for some.
A permanent block of a player is virtually impossible in any game if that player is committed to playing and cheating, unless ZoS implements something akin to fingerprint or retina scan login IDs. And even that could be easily bypassed with an accomplice or adequate engineering.
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TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Because the players need to be proven guilty first.
And we are not the judges, only witnesses.Edited by TequilaFire on August 17, 2019 2:20PM28 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'd like to talk just for a bit about why it is so important to protect the guilty. Many people in this game do not cheat but have been trolled and victimized by those who have through whispers and zone trolling, etc. Many people have been called names for suspecting the cheaters and exploiters, and now many of us know that we were indeed not crazy but accurate in our suspicions.
My question is why do we find it necessary to allow those who have cheated and exploited to maintain their fake "honor" or their ability to maintain, "I'm just a good player" crap? I get it that we don't name and shame in this game, but keeping things completely hidden cannot possibly help in changing the current climate. Don't name people necessarily by real names, but these are pretend names. Why not have a wall of shame for those pretend names? Why protect the victimizers?
[snip]
[Edit for bait.]
There's a very short and obvious answer here: It's not about protecting the guilty, it's about protecting the innocent.Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on August 17, 2019 3:10PM31 -
Earthewen✭✭✭✭✭Because 99% of the time, they are actually good players. Everytime a 1vXer or small scale group wipes a zerg, they are automatically assumed to be cheaters. I have been both sides of the fence, so I know.
Everytime I see in zone chat about a said cheater in say, Alessia LM or Ash farm, when I go and check it, it turns out to be a well-known 1vXer or streamer or a troll tank. When I fight them, usually it ends up in a stalemate and we walk away after exchanging blows for a few minutes. Otherwise, one of us dies after a prolonged fight or in a way, that I know for a fact that it is legit.
On the other hand, when I get a jump on a bunch of players, running bad builds, and get away with killing ten of them, you should see the whispers I get calling my things including hacker/cheater/exploiter, etc. After all, it is easier to call someone a cheater than get good both at playing and at theorycrafting OP builds.
I'm not talking about the people who haven't been confirmed as people cheating by ZOS. We all know the tendency of some people to claiming cheating when they lose, but those who HAVE been banned for it … I don't think it should remain in the shadows.5 -
Earthewen✭✭✭✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »I'd like to talk just for a bit about why it is so important to protect the guilty. Many people in this game do not cheat but have been trolled and victimized by those who have through whispers and zone trolling, etc. Many people have been called names for suspecting the cheaters and exploiters, and now many of us know that we were indeed not crazy but accurate in our suspicions.
My question is why do we find it necessary to allow those who have cheated and exploited to maintain their fake "honor" or their ability to maintain, "I'm just a good player" crap? I get it that we don't name and shame in this game, but keeping things completely hidden cannot possibly help in changing the current climate. Don't name people necessarily by real names, but these are pretend names. Why not have a wall of shame for those pretend names? Why protect the victimizers?
This is akin to people who claim to be war heroes but have never even served in the military.
There's a very short and obvious answer here: It's not about protecting the guilty, it's about protecting the innocent.
No, it isn't protecting the innocent. When someone has been banned by ZOS and proven guilty, they should be stopped from maintaining and procuring more ability of "I'm just a good player." Just post their character name only. The more things are in the shadows, the more bad things proliferate.7 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm here for over 5 years and I've seen real cheating (100% sure as jumping from inner keep to outer shouldn't be possible) once, maybe twice if we consider that meeting again the same player can be counted.
I've been accused for cheating several times when fighting people in Cyrodiil to. Mostly it's when you kill them very fast aka gank them, or when they can't kill you
I'm done with this game because of ZOS pushing us into Vengeance, because they don't know how to fix Cyrodiil.1 -
Cously✭✭✭✭✭
✭Real cheaters caught by ZOS should have their names and punishments revealed in a public wall of shame. Half of the problems in a society are because lack of accountability.14 -
Earthewen✭✭✭✭✭Cheaters are paying customers, too.
Clearly, some of them are! However, who outweighs who? Are there more cheaters than there are non-cheaters?! or are there more non-cheaters than cheaters?
Why protect the cheaters and give them the ability to victimize/troll the non-cheaters? Bring the cheaters out into the open and verify so we can all stop accusing people who AREN'T cheating.2 -
Soul_Demon✭✭✭✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »I'd like to talk just for a bit about why it is so important to protect the guilty. Many people in this game do not cheat but have been trolled and victimized by those who have through whispers and zone trolling, etc. Many people have been called names for suspecting the cheaters and exploiters, and now many of us know that we were indeed not crazy but accurate in our suspicions.
My question is why do we find it necessary to allow those who have cheated and exploited to maintain their fake "honor" or their ability to maintain, "I'm just a good player" crap? I get it that we don't name and shame in this game, but keeping things completely hidden cannot possibly help in changing the current climate. Don't name people necessarily by real names, but these are pretend names. Why not have a wall of shame for those pretend names? Why protect the victimizers?
This is akin to people who claim to be war heroes but have never even served in the military.
There's a very short and obvious answer here: It's not about protecting the guilty, it's about protecting the innocent.
No, it isn't protecting the innocent. When someone has been banned by ZOS and proven guilty, they should be stopped from maintaining and procuring more ability of "I'm just a good player." Just post their character name only. The more things are in the shadows, the more bad things proliferate.
And that is the problem...even in your original post some of the players posting cant be bothered to read it completely or lack the ability to process you already clarified that no naming and shaming is a good thing....players should never be smeared by others without proof....but when ZOS has proof of the cheating, why don't we have a wall of shame for those char names who were caught? Indeed, it is others who get victimized by those who cheat, and protecting those char names AFTER ZOS has busted them doing so is really protecting the clearly guilty. They simply go on to do it again and again because they can maintain the false honor in 'winning' fights while cheating- why?3 -
Trinity_Is_My_Name✭✭✭✭✭
✭Because not everyone accused of cheating or exploiting the game are doing so.
I have been in this game for almost five years. About three years ago when I was pretty much still a scrub I was accused of using Cheat Engine.
I had never heard of it and asked this person who accused me why he thought I was cheating. Well, his response I have never forgotten.
"Because I have all top tier Trial gear and I can't do what you can!". Yes, that is what this person said to me in VOIP one day. On top of that he went on to accuse two more players in our guild of cheating and accused all three of us of also using Macros.
I had to search the Internet to find Cheat Engine to see what it was and I have no idea how anyone would use a macro in the game. The game has too many fluidly changing moments of combat.
That was about three years ago when I had no real idea how to play this game (combat wise) or make builds or anything complex. What does that say about the person who accused me of cheating? A lot.
So some are accused who are not cheating.
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therift✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Real cheaters caught by ZOS should have their names and punishments revealed in a public wall of shame. Half of the problems in a society are because lack of accountability.
What good would that do?
There is a player who has had at least 3 accounts permanently banned, according to the player's YouTube videos with screen shots of the account action e-mail from ZoS. New account, new name.
Publishing "Player [X] has been banned for cheating" won't help you at all if Player [X] is back the next day as Player [Y].
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TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Listing their names would give the hardcore cheaters exactly what they are looking for - attention.
They would like it like a leader board with the worst on top.9 -
Soul_Demon✭✭✭✭✭Real cheaters caught by ZOS should have their names and punishments revealed in a public wall of shame. Half of the problems in a society are because lack of accountability.
What good would that do?
There is a player who has had at least 3 accounts permanently banned, according to the player's YouTube videos with screen shots of the account action e-mail from ZoS. New account, new name.
Publishing "Player [X] has been banned for cheating" won't help you at all if Player [X] is back the next day as Player [Y].
I would submit that those cheating routinely don't have multiple accounts...that would be the extreme cheats who cant play any other way. Putting char names caught up on a wall of shame would affirm those turning in such things to continue to provide ZOS with this information since they don't do this, we the player are required to spot, record and turn in cheats in their game.
I would also guess that those who were doing this stuff would be discouraged as the notoriety of 'winning' would be reduced to "Lance Armstrong" levels- They do it to 'appear' to be good at the game, the reason is removed if the char names are revealed to have cheated.1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭My question is why do we find it necessary to allow those who have cheated and exploited to maintain their fake "honor" or their ability to maintain, "I'm just a good player" crap? I get it that we don't name and shame in this game, but keeping things completely hidden cannot possibly help in changing the current climate. Don't name people necessarily by real names, but these are pretend names. Why not have a wall of shame for those pretend names? Why protect the victimizers?
First thing... It isn't our responsibility to pass judgement on the players. Sure, we can, but it does not matter if we do, or not.
Report them in the game, and if ZOS agrees and wants to take action, they will. If they don't want to take action, there is little we can do about it. Reports in here, even ones that include a video, are subjective and anecdotal. None of them speak with authority towards the intent of the player that they are accusing. When posted in the forum, I treat them as rumor and hearsay.
Anything we say or do in here on the subject is purely conversational entertainment. No one in here is actually protecting anyone. Explaining away of what they are doing as "good player" or "cheater" only counts for entertainment purposes. ZOS does not depend on the forums for enforcement.
These reports can be wrong, even if the person making the report is absolutely sure they are correct.I'm not talking about the people who haven't been confirmed as people cheating by ZOS. We all know the tendency of some people to claiming cheating when they lose, but those who HAVE been banned for it … I don't think it should remain in the shadows.
What is the point? This is between ZOS and the player. I agree that ZOS should announce how many get banned or suspended, but they do not. I think I know why, but I won't say in here.Edited by Elsonso on August 17, 2019 2:55PMXBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus3 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think it was a Rockstar game where cheaters and griefers were given a dunce cap and were restricted to playing only with other cheaters for a while.7 -
Earthewen✭✭✭✭✭You guys are not reading what I actually said. They should not post the names of people REPORTED. Only those people CONFIRMED as cheaters and exploiters. :-)3
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Soul_Demon✭✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »My question is why do we find it necessary to allow those who have cheated and exploited to maintain their fake "honor" or their ability to maintain, "I'm just a good player" crap? I get it that we don't name and shame in this game, but keeping things completely hidden cannot possibly help in changing the current climate. Don't name people necessarily by real names, but these are pretend names. Why not have a wall of shame for those pretend names? Why protect the victimizers?
First thing... It isn't our responsibility to pass judgement on the players. Sure, we can, but it does not matter if we do, or not.
Report them in the game, and if ZOS agrees and wants to take action, they will. If they don't want to take action, there is little we can do about it. Reports in here, even ones that include a video, are subjective and anecdotal. None of them speak with authority towards the intent of the player that they are accusing. When posted in the forum, I treat them as rumor and hearsay.
Anything we say or do in here on the subject is purely conversational entertainment. No one in here is actually protecting anyone. Explaining away of what they are doing as "good player" or "cheater" only counts for entertainment purposes. ZOS does not depend on the forums for enforcement.
These reports can be wrong, even if the person making the report is absolutely sure they are correct.I'm not talking about the people who haven't been confirmed as people cheating by ZOS. We all know the tendency of some people to claiming cheating when they lose, but those who HAVE been banned for it … I don't think it should remain in the shadows.
What is the point? This is between ZOS and the player. I agree that ZOS should announce how many get banned or suspended, but they do not. I think I know why, but I won't say in here.
Why do you seem so convinced 'just accept it' is the way all players should approach this issue? Out of curiosity do you subscribe to this in any other thing?1 -
ZOS_GregoryVmodGreetings all,
Just to clarify, as it is stated in our rules:
If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to take a few moments to review them here.Naming-and-Shaming: We do not allow posts or threads that are created for the purpose of “naming-and-shaming” other community member(s). “Naming-and-shaming” is the act of creating a post to call out an individual or group by name, and making them the subject of public accusation, ridicule and/or shaming. Generally, naming-and-shaming involves an in-game situation and/or Terms of Service violation, which the ESO Community Team is unable to assist with. A certain amount of rivalry and competitive razzing is healthy for any game community, especially one with PVP elements, but naming-and-shaming goes well beyond that. It typically elevates to a point where the subject feels legitimately harassed. We believe that naming-and-shaming posts and threads can be abused and are very harmful to the community. We also don't feel that publicly calling out or accusing others by name on our forums is in spirit of the game or our community. If you genuinely believe someone has violated our Terms of Service, you should report them in-game via the support interface — do not bring the situation onto the official ESO community forums.
Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
Forum Rules | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Home Page | Help Site8 -
Earthewen✭✭✭✭✭1. One benefit would be that people who really ARE the good players and aren't cheating/exploiting can stop being accused of such. If we KNEW beyond a shadow of a doubt (confirmed by ZOS by name) that certain people have a history of such, we can respond accordingly. When the cheaters start hate telling/whispering, we would have a defense … "Yeah, well, I happen to know that you have been banned for cheating/exploiting so keep telling me how awesome you are. W/E man."
It is like the question of whether or not we should expose child molesters. Do we or don't we?
2. The prevention of future instances cannot be 100% because people are going to do it no matter what, however, with no accountability or public exposure, this remaining in the shadows and not discussed will only serve to proliferate it into people who would not normally do so. There is no deterrent right now. None.1 -
Earthewen✭✭✭✭✭ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »Greetings all,
Just to clarify, as it is stated in our rules:
If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to take a few moments to review them here.Naming-and-Shaming: We do not allow posts or threads that are created for the purpose of “naming-and-shaming” other community member(s). “Naming-and-shaming” is the act of creating a post to call out an individual or group by name, and making them the subject of public accusation, ridicule and/or shaming. Generally, naming-and-shaming involves an in-game situation and/or Terms of Service violation, which the ESO Community Team is unable to assist with. A certain amount of rivalry and competitive razzing is healthy for any game community, especially one with PVP elements, but naming-and-shaming goes well beyond that. It typically elevates to a point where the subject feels legitimately harassed. We believe that naming-and-shaming posts and threads can be abused and are very harmful to the community. We also don't feel that publicly calling out or accusing others by name on our forums is in spirit of the game or our community. If you genuinely believe someone has violated our Terms of Service, you should report them in-game via the support interface — do not bring the situation onto the official ESO community forums.
Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-
Thank you for posting this, @ZOS_GregoryV . I'm not calling that into question as the rules are the rules. What I am asking is why it is so important to keep things so secret. We all know it is happening, but the problem hasn't changed in over 5 years. Are we expecting some kind of change while doing the same thing over and over?3 -
Berserkerkitten✭✭✭✭1. Except anyone cheating and NOT caught/confirmed will still do so and people will still accuse each other, so this does absolutely nothing. I'm not even gonna get into the child *** comparison, due to how insanely ridiculous it is.
2. And naming banned users is a deterrent? Since when? Based on what? What do they care if anyone knows? They're banned, soon to be back with different names and accounts.Nobody cares about your endless list of terribly-named characters.5 -
Ash_In_My_Sujamma✭✭✭✭✭Why not just block the person you believe is a cheater from the start and prevent him from starting a conversation with you? Because all I am getting from what you are saying is that you need a way to justify your theory that there are cheaters in Cyrodiil. Nothing more would come from implementing your idea. You want the moral high ground.4 -
Earthewen✭✭✭✭✭Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »Why not just block the person you believe is a cheater from the start and prevent him from starting a conversation with you? Because all I am getting from what you are saying is that you need a way to justify your theory that there are cheaters in Cyrodiil. Nothing more would come from implementing your idea. You want the moral high ground.
Well, that would work for the conversation, but why not discourage future cheaters? I'm not talking about something like in the rules. Not naming and shaming, but telling the truth. Truth hurts sometimes, but it always brings about the greater good. It isn't just a theory that there are cheaters in Cyro. We all know there are. This would confirm it all, bring it out into the open, and produce healthy discussion on it. Sticking heads in the sand and pretending it doesn't happen won't do a single thing to discourage it.
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Erelah✭✭✭✭Because incontrovertible proof of a cheat is not as simple as players may think, and because publishing names serves little useful purpose beyond catharsis for some.
A permanent block of a player is virtually impossible in any game if that player is committed to playing and cheating, unless ZoS implements something akin to fingerprint or retina scan login IDs. And even that could be easily bypassed with an accomplice or adequate engineering.
An IP block is pretty easy, blocking VPNs are easy as well. Certain large companies block such traffic from the site. Of course could change it that logging in does not not look just for an IP address but MAC addresses and block those as well.
Note: A MAC address is the hardware for connecting to the internet. It is more personable identifiable than your IP address. It lets companies and services know which computer in your house is using the service.1 -
Earthewen✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »I think it was a Rockstar game where cheaters and griefers were given a dunce cap and were restricted to playing only with other cheaters for a while.
I think that would be a great ideda …..instead of a wall of shame, give them their own server. problem solved.
Then all the people caught cheating all can still play but only with other people who are cheating. Then all the people NOT cheating can have a clean game and a better time.
Edited by Earthewen on August 17, 2019 3:31PM3
This discussion has been closed.