Protecting the Guilty?

BloodMagicLord

Earthewen wrote: »

I'd like to talk just for a bit about why it is so important to protect the guilty. Many people in this game do not cheat but have been trolled and victimized by those who have through whispers and zone trolling, etc. Many people have been called names for suspecting the cheaters and exploiters, and now many of us know that we were indeed not crazy but accurate in our suspicions.

My question is why do we find it necessary to allow those who have cheated and exploited to maintain their fake "honor" or their ability to maintain, "I'm just a good player" crap? I get it that we don't name and shame in this game, but keeping things completely hidden cannot possibly help in changing the current climate. Don't name people necessarily by real names, but these are pretend names. Why not have a wall of shame for those pretend names? Why protect the victimizers?

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

Because I and many others like me have been accused of cheating by salty noobs for the crime of being somewhat competent at PvP. If naming and shaming is allowed, then it also becomes very easy to start rumours about players you don't like based on absolutely nothing. To avoid this we protect everyone, both the innocent and guilty.

DaveMoeDee

Earthewen wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Because 99% of the time, they are actually good players. Everytime a 1vXer or small scale group wipes a zerg, they are automatically assumed to be cheaters. I have been both sides of the fence, so I know.

Everytime I see in zone chat about a said cheater in say, Alessia LM or Ash farm, when I go and check it, it turns out to be a well-known 1vXer or streamer or a troll tank. When I fight them, usually it ends up in a stalemate and we walk away after exchanging blows for a few minutes. Otherwise, one of us dies after a prolonged fight or in a way, that I know for a fact that it is legit.

On the other hand, when I get a jump on a bunch of players, running bad builds, and get away with killing ten of them, you should see the whispers I get calling my things including hacker/cheater/exploiter, etc. After all, it is easier to call someone a cheater than get good both at playing and at theorycrafting OP builds.

I'm not talking about the people who haven't been confirmed as people cheating by ZOS. We all know the tendency of some people to claiming cheating when they lose, but those who HAVE been banned for it … I don't think it should remain in the shadows.

Meh. No need to talk about them when they are gone.

What would be nice would be to see though is the ability to warn players about other players that aren't good faith actors, like players who like to scam others in person-to-person trades or those who cause problems in PUG dungeons. Unfortunately, resources like that get manipulated by idiots brigading, so there is no point in trying.

Fallen_Ray

Unstable.Pixel wrote: »

Because it would hurt all the little sweaty snowflakes' feelings. ZoS is all about hugs.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Kosbert

Do we talk about the fact that everyone uses the Top Searching for Light Attack Weaving Script ? Or about the bots in Craglorn who are not banned since months ? What people are we talking about ?

therift

.

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

I'd like to talk just for a bit about why it is so important to protect the guilty. Many people in this game do not cheat but have been trolled and victimized by those who have through whispers and zone trolling, etc. Many people have been called names for suspecting the cheaters and exploiters, and now many of us know that we were indeed not crazy but accurate in our suspicions.

My question is why do we find it necessary to allow those who have cheated and exploited to maintain their fake "honor" or their ability to maintain, "I'm just a good player" crap? I get it that we don't name and shame in this game, but keeping things completely hidden cannot possibly help in changing the current climate. Don't name people necessarily by real names, but these are pretend names. Why not have a wall of shame for those pretend names? Why protect the victimizers?

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

Because I and many others like me have been accused of cheating by salty noobs for the crime of being somewhat competent at PvP. If naming and shaming is allowed, then it also becomes very easy to start rumours about players you don't like based on absolutely nothing. To avoid this we protect everyone, both the innocent and guilty.

I get nasty whispers from players who don't understand how Coward's Gear works.

mairwen85

idk wrote: »

It would seem a wall of shame of fake names is an excise in futility as they are fake names. The idea presented in the OP is without any merit, and substance and would have no affect because they are fake names. Very meaningless.

Earthewen wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Because 99% of the time, they are actually good players. Everytime a 1vXer or small scale group wipes a zerg, they are automatically assumed to be cheaters. I have been both sides of the fence, so I know.

Everytime I see in zone chat about a said cheater in say, Alessia LM or Ash farm, when I go and check it, it turns out to be a well-known 1vXer or streamer or a troll tank. When I fight them, usually it ends up in a stalemate and we walk away after exchanging blows for a few minutes. Otherwise, one of us dies after a prolonged fight or in a way, that I know for a fact that it is legit.

On the other hand, when I get a jump on a bunch of players, running bad builds, and get away with killing ten of them, you should see the whispers I get calling my things including hacker/cheater/exploiter, etc. After all, it is easier to call someone a cheater than get good both at playing and at theorycrafting OP builds.

I'm not talking about the people who haven't been confirmed as people cheating by ZOS. We all know the tendency of some people to claiming cheating when they lose, but those who HAVE been banned for it … I don't think it should remain in the shadows.

OP follows up with this yet I have never seen a list of players confirmed by Zos to have been cheating.

Ofc, they would never print such a list because it would be in violation of laws across the world. Ofc I doubt OP is suggesting Zos violate the laws of many nations and other states across the land.

As above, it would achieve nothing. Putting their starved characters in cages hanging by the side of main roads, or impaled on stakes at the gates of major zone hubs on the other hand...

Just kidding

Earthewen

Kosbert wrote: »

Do we talk about the fact that everyone uses the Top Searching for Light Attack Weaving Script ? Or about the bots in Craglorn who are not banned since months ? What people are we talking about ?

Good question. I mean it isn't just PvP that has stuff going on, but pve as well. I've seen those bots myself on occasion, reported it only to find the same people out there doing the same exact thing later. Either way, I'd love to find a way where we can stop being the police of the game and not

usmcjdking wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

enzoisadog wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

I'd like to talk just for a bit about why it is so important to protect the guilty. Many people in this game do not cheat but have been trolled and victimized by those who have through whispers and zone trolling, etc. Many people have been called names for suspecting the cheaters and exploiters, and now many of us know that we were indeed not crazy but accurate in our suspicions.

My question is why do we find it necessary to allow those who have cheated and exploited to maintain their fake "honor" or their ability to maintain, "I'm just a good player" crap? I get it that we don't name and shame in this game, but keeping things completely hidden cannot possibly help in changing the current climate. Don't name people necessarily by real names, but these are pretend names. Why not have a wall of shame for those pretend names? Why protect the victimizers?

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

LMAAO

You must admit, @enzoisadog , that if we knew that ZOS was actually taking action, then the false accusations might actually stop. I don't think they would increase. I think they would decrease. Personally, I'm a little tired of being told we are to be the police of the game. I'd much rather just play than worry about this part. I mean, don't we pay the money so we can PLAY the game instead of policing it?

No, they wouldn't.

Cheating accusations don't stem from a lack of anti-cheating enforcement, then stem from players who massively overvalue their total skill package.

I get called a cheater probably 50% of the time I enter Cyrodiil, which at this point is once or twice a week, and I am on the lower end of the "good" player pool. Other players have to deal with the abuse almost non-stop. So having some complete [snip] shitbird come on here talking about protecting the guilty when the amount of innocent parties subject to this garbage and utter harassment is so much larger; you can't expect people to take this cereally.

First of all, I am not a [snip], but then name calling certainly is the tactic of lesser people. I am sincerely encouraging some discourse about this because I think finding a solution is very important. Right now, the community has reassurances that anything is EVER done. If bringing into the light the people who ZOS can confirm are cheating isn't an option, then tell me what is an option that would bring about the results we are hoping for … ie. less cheating, less exploiting, less false accusations, and a better game as a result.

I'm open to suggestions, but please let's leave the name calling off the forums if you please. Ad hominem insults are not really conducive to solutions now, are they?

[edited for circumventing profanity filter]

usmcjdking

Earthewen wrote: »

Kosbert wrote: »

Do we talk about the fact that everyone uses the Top Searching for Light Attack Weaving Script ? Or about the bots in Craglorn who are not banned since months ? What people are we talking about ?

Good question. I mean it isn't just PvP that has stuff going on, but pve as well. I've seen those bots myself on occasion, reported it only to find the same people out there doing the same exact thing later. Either way, I'd love to find a way where we can stop being the police of the game and not

usmcjdking wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

enzoisadog wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

I'd like to talk just for a bit about why it is so important to protect the guilty. Many people in this game do not cheat but have been trolled and victimized by those who have through whispers and zone trolling, etc. Many people have been called names for suspecting the cheaters and exploiters, and now many of us know that we were indeed not crazy but accurate in our suspicions.

My question is why do we find it necessary to allow those who have cheated and exploited to maintain their fake "honor" or their ability to maintain, "I'm just a good player" crap? I get it that we don't name and shame in this game, but keeping things completely hidden cannot possibly help in changing the current climate. Don't name people necessarily by real names, but these are pretend names. Why not have a wall of shame for those pretend names? Why protect the victimizers?

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

LMAAO

You must admit, @enzoisadog , that if we knew that ZOS was actually taking action, then the false accusations might actually stop. I don't think they would increase. I think they would decrease. Personally, I'm a little tired of being told we are to be the police of the game. I'd much rather just play than worry about this part. I mean, don't we pay the money so we can PLAY the game instead of policing it?

No, they wouldn't.

Cheating accusations don't stem from a lack of anti-cheating enforcement, then stem from players who massively overvalue their total skill package.

I get called a cheater probably 50% of the time I enter Cyrodiil, which at this point is once or twice a week, and I am on the lower end of the "good" player pool. Other players have to deal with the abuse almost non-stop. So having some complete classless shitbird come on here talking about protecting the guilty when the amount of innocent parties subject to this garbage and utter harassment is so much larger; you can't expect people to take this cereally.

First of all, I am not a [snip], but then name calling certainly is the tactic of lesser people. I am sincerely encouraging some discourse about this because I think finding a solution is very important. Right now, the community has reassurances that anything is EVER done. If bringing into the light the people who ZOS can confirm are cheating isn't an option, then tell me what is an option that would bring about the results we are hoping for … ie. less cheating, less exploiting, less false accusations, and a better game as a result.

I'm open to suggestions, but please let's leave the name calling off the forums if you please. Ad hominem insults are not really conducive to solutions now, are they?

[snip]

[edited for baiting/bashing/circumventing profanity filter]

SteveCampsOut

usmcjdking wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Kosbert wrote: »

Do we talk about the fact that everyone uses the Top Searching for Light Attack Weaving Script ? Or about the bots in Craglorn who are not banned since months ? What people are we talking about ?

Good question. I mean it isn't just PvP that has stuff going on, but pve as well. I've seen those bots myself on occasion, reported it only to find the same people out there doing the same exact thing later. Either way, I'd love to find a way where we can stop being the police of the game and not

usmcjdking wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

enzoisadog wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

I'd like to talk just for a bit about why it is so important to protect the guilty. Many people in this game do not cheat but have been trolled and victimized by those who have through whispers and zone trolling, etc. Many people have been called names for suspecting the cheaters and exploiters, and now many of us know that we were indeed not crazy but accurate in our suspicions.

My question is why do we find it necessary to allow those who have cheated and exploited to maintain their fake "honor" or their ability to maintain, "I'm just a good player" crap? I get it that we don't name and shame in this game, but keeping things completely hidden cannot possibly help in changing the current climate. Don't name people necessarily by real names, but these are pretend names. Why not have a wall of shame for those pretend names? Why protect the victimizers?

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

LMAAO

You must admit, @enzoisadog , that if we knew that ZOS was actually taking action, then the false accusations might actually stop. I don't think they would increase. I think they would decrease. Personally, I'm a little tired of being told we are to be the police of the game. I'd much rather just play than worry about this part. I mean, don't we pay the money so we can PLAY the game instead of policing it?

No, they wouldn't.

Cheating accusations don't stem from a lack of anti-cheating enforcement, then stem from players who massively overvalue their total skill package.

I get called a cheater probably 50% of the time I enter Cyrodiil, which at this point is once or twice a week, and I am on the lower end of the "good" player pool. Other players have to deal with the abuse almost non-stop. So having some complete classless shitbird come on here talking about protecting the guilty when the amount of innocent parties subject to this garbage and utter harassment is so much larger; you can't expect people to take this cereally.

First of all, I am not a shitbird, but then name calling certainly is the tactic of lesser people. I am sincerely encouraging some discourse about this because I think finding a solution is very important. Right now, the community has reassurances that anything is EVER done. If bringing into the light the people who ZOS can confirm are cheating isn't an option, then tell me what is an option that would bring about the results we are hoping for … ie. less cheating, less exploiting, less false accusations, and a better game as a result.

I'm open to suggestions, but please let's leave the name calling off the forums if you please. Ad hominem insults are not really conducive to solutions now, are they?

You're an abuse enabler, condone internet abuse and are otherwise fighting for your God-given right to abuse people freely based on nothing but the borked perception of likeminded persons because you feel the TOS IRT naming and shaming is out of place.

Discourse? *** you.

The irony of an abusive person calling someone else an abuse enabler? Priceless! For the rest, there's MasterCard!

usmcjdking

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Kosbert wrote: »

Do we talk about the fact that everyone uses the Top Searching for Light Attack Weaving Script ? Or about the bots in Craglorn who are not banned since months ? What people are we talking about ?

Good question. I mean it isn't just PvP that has stuff going on, but pve as well. I've seen those bots myself on occasion, reported it only to find the same people out there doing the same exact thing later. Either way, I'd love to find a way where we can stop being the police of the game and not

usmcjdking wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

enzoisadog wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

I'd like to talk just for a bit about why it is so important to protect the guilty. Many people in this game do not cheat but have been trolled and victimized by those who have through whispers and zone trolling, etc. Many people have been called names for suspecting the cheaters and exploiters, and now many of us know that we were indeed not crazy but accurate in our suspicions.

My question is why do we find it necessary to allow those who have cheated and exploited to maintain their fake "honor" or their ability to maintain, "I'm just a good player" crap? I get it that we don't name and shame in this game, but keeping things completely hidden cannot possibly help in changing the current climate. Don't name people necessarily by real names, but these are pretend names. Why not have a wall of shame for those pretend names? Why protect the victimizers?

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

LMAAO

You must admit, @enzoisadog , that if we knew that ZOS was actually taking action, then the false accusations might actually stop. I don't think they would increase. I think they would decrease. Personally, I'm a little tired of being told we are to be the police of the game. I'd much rather just play than worry about this part. I mean, don't we pay the money so we can PLAY the game instead of policing it?

No, they wouldn't.

Cheating accusations don't stem from a lack of anti-cheating enforcement, then stem from players who massively overvalue their total skill package.

I get called a cheater probably 50% of the time I enter Cyrodiil, which at this point is once or twice a week, and I am on the lower end of the "good" player pool. Other players have to deal with the abuse almost non-stop. So having some complete classless shitbird come on here talking about protecting the guilty when the amount of innocent parties subject to this garbage and utter harassment is so much larger; you can't expect people to take this cereally.

First of all, I am not a shitbird, but then name calling certainly is the tactic of lesser people. I am sincerely encouraging some discourse about this because I think finding a solution is very important. Right now, the community has reassurances that anything is EVER done. If bringing into the light the people who ZOS can confirm are cheating isn't an option, then tell me what is an option that would bring about the results we are hoping for … ie. less cheating, less exploiting, less false accusations, and a better game as a result.

I'm open to suggestions, but please let's leave the name calling off the forums if you please. Ad hominem insults are not really conducive to solutions now, are they?

You're an abuse enabler, condone internet abuse and are otherwise fighting for your God-given right to abuse people freely based on nothing but the borked perception of likeminded persons because you feel the TOS IRT naming and shaming is out of place.

Discourse? *** you.

The irony of an abusive person calling someone else an abuse enabler? Priceless! For the rest, there's MasterCard!

Sorry, wasn't raised to turn the other cheek.

D0PAMINE

@ZOS_KaiSchober can we close this please?

Earthewen

[snip]


The irony of an abusive person calling someone else an abuse enabler? Priceless! For the rest, there's MasterCard!

Sorry, wasn't raised to turn the other cheek.[/quote]

I'm not enabling anything. I would sincerely like to see an end to the current climate where innocent people are accused and found guilty through opinion rather than fact. Keeping things under the table does little to help the current situation. It is only foolish people who continue to do something the same way and then expect different results.

I don't think I'm totally alone in the perception that if we continue with things the way they are now, it might not be enough to change the situation to create a cleaner game. Maybe something drastic should occur? What that might be, I'm totally open to better suggestions.

xxthir13enxx

Earthewen wrote: »

I'd like to talk just for a bit about why it is so important to protect the guilty. Many people in this game do not cheat but have been trolled and victimized by those who have through whispers and zone trolling, etc. Many people have been called names for suspecting the cheaters and exploiters, and now many of us know that we were indeed not crazy but accurate in our suspicions.

My question is why do we find it necessary to allow those who have cheated and exploited to maintain their fake "honor" or their ability to maintain, "I'm just a good player" crap? I get it that we don't name and shame in this game, but keeping things completely hidden cannot possibly help in changing the current climate. Don't name people necessarily by real names, but these are pretend names. Why not have a wall of shame for those pretend names? Why protect the victimizers?

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

Long story short—- because that would be bad publicity for the game.
Openly acknowledging a games vulnerabilities doesn’t make a great advertisement

usmcjdking

You want an end to the current climate?

LOL.

No you don't. You sit on discords being passive aggressive and libeling players whilst throwing empty "research" threats for whatever reason, then come on here acting like a mediator. You want validation.

I'll tell you what though - I'll take a step back and be objective for a minute. I'll give you what you want in return for what I want. You know what would end the current climate, though? Temporary suspensions for demonstrably false cheating accusations. ZOS has the data, they know who cheats and who doesn't to a reliable degree. There's no reason I shouldn't be able to suspend accusers who are subjecting myself or friends to harassment on a continual basis.

rfennell_ESO

The simple issue is that there have been (and likely continue to be) egregious blatant cheaters who are allowed to profit (literally and figuratively) from their cheating.

The only recourse to players that continue to cheat (and many for a long time) is exposing them for what they are.

ZOS has taken a hard stand on exposing as naming/shaming. This empowers cheats that keep getting away with to run their mouths and talk trash and assault the names of players that accuse them.

Ever notice how any naming/shaming grievance gets taken care of immediately? But.. naming/shaming accusers isn't?

The litany of pathetically crafted (crafted might be too nice, vomited is a best word for it) insults levied against those that accuse are far more and usually far worse than the simple accusation of cheating.

Worse is the cult of exploitation that does exist in game (for NA servers at least) has always been on page and on point and in communication with the other dregs of society to savage and harass potential accusers. It never results in much of anything and is again... far more egregious than the accusation of cheating is.

The worst that ever seems to happen to attacker of an accuser is the offending comments are sometimes removed. The flip side is that accusers usually get suspended and then suspended again and then perma banned on the forums. The "tin foil hat defense team" keeps on posting and insulting.

End of day... cheating ruined pvp in ESO. Most of the cheaters are still around, cheating. Most of their accusers are perma banned. Worse even is it's likely pve leaderboards is also a cheatfest.

darthgummibear_ESO

Erelah wrote: »

Berserkerkitten wrote: »

Erelah wrote: »

An IP block is pretty easy, blocking VPNs are easy as well. Certain large companies block such traffic from the site. Of course could change it that logging in does not not look just for an IP address but MAC addresses and block those as well.

Except NO ONE even has a static IP so unless you wanna ban an entire IP-range (and countless innocent players along with it), it does absolutely nothing. And changing your MAC address is about as time-consuming as getting a fresh pair of socks.

Yes changing the hardware in your computer is about as time... yeah I am just not going to respond to you as you are providing misinformation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_address
https://www.wikihow.com/Find-the-MAC-Address-of-Your-Computer
https://www.lifewire.com/introduction-to-mac-addresses-817937

Spoofing your MAC Address is surprisingly easy.

Tigerseye

False allegations, I guess?

I had played Mesmer so much, at one point, in GW2, I could pretty easily kill (or survive) two experienced players at once.

I just had a weird synergy for the class, for some reason, built fairly tanky (for a Mes) and played it way too much.

I have never cheated, or exploited, in any game, but it's possible that some people would have assumed I must be from that.

Since then, I haven't played GW2 for a year and have forgotten pretty much everything I ever knew, but still. xD

Tigerseye

Earthewen wrote: »

You guys are not reading what I actually said. They should not post the names of people REPORTED. Only those people CONFIRMED as cheaters and exploiters. :-)

Ah OK, well then fair enough, as far as I am concerned, then.

Nyladreas

I'm more surprised that someone hasn't lost their nerve yet and hasn't made a webpage where people can post all the bad boys and girls names, free for the world to see.

Honestly... With the amount of toxicity lately one has to ask...

Earthewen

usmcjdking wrote: »

You want an end to the current climate?

LOL.

No you don't. You sit on discords being passive aggressive and libeling players whilst throwing empty "research" threats for whatever reason, then come on here acting like a mediator. You want validation.

I'll tell you what though - I'll take a step back and be objective for a minute. I'll give you what you want in return for what I want. You know what would end the current climate, though? Temporary suspensions for demonstrably false cheating accusations. ZOS has the data, they know who cheats and who doesn't to a reliable degree. There's no reason I shouldn't be able to suspend accusers who are subjecting myself or friends to harassment on a continual basis.

You are sadly mistaken if you think I want validation from the likes of you, @usmcjdking. You seem to deem yourself far more important in the scheme of things than you are.

You clearly are not reading what I'm saying about the need to 1. ZOS to police their own game and stop asking players to do it for them, and 2. Stop keeping those who are CONFIRMED as cheating hidden behind a wall of protection.

Your personal attacks against me serve nothing but to cloud what the issue really is.

"Me thinks he doth protest too much."

Soul_Demon

The only valid reason to argue to protect cheaters names is that you 'value' the behavior in some way. ZOS really has no valid reason when someone was confirmed by them to have been cheating to not release the name unless they WANT us to cheat- If not, I would love to hear why they don't release those names of chars (of course not the @names) in order to deter the would be cheaters of tomorrow. It just defies logic to continue to put up a wall of silence on them unless you are trying to shield them from the shame that should be heaped on anyone who goes so far as to join a MMPORG and cheat it- the only reason people do so must be to gain false notoriety in the game. Any other explanation doesn't seem to be even remotely honest.

Earthewen

BloodMagicLord wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

I'd like to talk just for a bit about why it is so important to protect the guilty. Many people in this game do not cheat but have been trolled and victimized by those who have through whispers and zone trolling, etc. Many people have been called names for suspecting the cheaters and exploiters, and now many of us know that we were indeed not crazy but accurate in our suspicions.

My question is why do we find it necessary to allow those who have cheated and exploited to maintain their fake "honor" or their ability to maintain, "I'm just a good player" crap? I get it that we don't name and shame in this game, but keeping things completely hidden cannot possibly help in changing the current climate. Don't name people necessarily by real names, but these are pretend names. Why not have a wall of shame for those pretend names? Why protect the victimizers?

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

Because I and many others like me have been accused of cheating by salty noobs for the crime of being somewhat competent at PvP. If naming and shaming is allowed, then it also becomes very easy to start rumours about players you don't like based on absolutely nothing. To avoid this we protect everyone, both the innocent and guilty.

If we had some list or wall, everyone who is falsely accused could then point to that wall and say, "If I were cheating, my name would be up on that board and it isn't. Nice try dumb ass." That would do nothing but prove your point and give falsely accused folks a place to prove their own innocence. If they WERE cheating, then their name would be up there, but if it isn't … well, you see what I mean.

ZOS_Ragnar

We have closed this thread as discussing the validity of the rules is not constructive. Publicly shaming an individual or a group of individuals is not appropriate and does more harm than good. If you encounter a violation of the Terms of Service in the game we ask you to report that individual using the in-game interface. This will capture information that will be used in an investigation into the situation if a violation is discovered appropriate action will be taken. For privacy reasons, we do not disclose the outcome of these investigations.