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Cyrodiil is overly DPS-centric.

phuein
phuein
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I recently thought to myself, wouldn't it be cool to setup my healer to capture flags (towns) just by meditating next to a flag with heals-gear and buffs?!

But, apparently, flags can only be captured by killing all the mobs around them. So, basically the only role for quick flag capture is a DPS.

Tanks and healers can't have this fun? Not cool. Support is one thing, but I like to do some solo missions too.

EDIT: This post is about having fun. I see no reason why a healer/tank can't go and capture a flag using their strongest powers, just like a dps does by using its damage to kill the mobs.

EDIT2: No, this is not the same as a dps with some heals. And no, this is not the same as PvE content where healers use/buff dps.

EDIT3: Don't tell me to play a dps or play with a dps, or to just do some dmg myself. This post is not asking for dpsing advice.
Edited by phuein on August 17, 2019 3:59AM

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  • xylena_lazarow
    xylena_lazarow
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    Solo tanks or healers can meatbag the flag to clear the guards.

    Groups of tanks or healers can flip keeps by outnumbering the enemies on the flags and not dying. Zero kills required.
  • Sharee
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    phuein wrote: »
    But, apparently, flags can only be captured by killing all the mobs around them. So, basically the only role for quick flag capture is a DPS.

    No solo flag capture is quick, because it takes 60 seconds to completely flip it. Time to kill the guards is a small change compared to that (just dump an AOE ult on the flag).
    As far as killing the guards, yes, a DPS can do it faster, but all specs are capable of clearing them.
  • Vapirko
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    If you’re a pure heal spec then you honestly need to be with at least one DD anyway. Otherwise all you can do is block cast heals and run away (although I’m well aware some people think this is a legit playstyle and also love to tbag you when their group shows up to Xv1). So honestly asking to be able to take things without ever going offensive is kinda silly. What army leaves their resources undefended?
  • NBrookus
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    Healers are extremely valuable in PVP and good healers are priceless. However you gotta have people to heal or you are just a speedbump.

    PVP is about killing other players. Get a dps or hybrid heals/dps spec for your character for when you want to go off alone.
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  • phuein
    phuein
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    I get the feeling that none of the responses above are from healer mains that play Cyro regularly.

    This post is about having fun. I see no reason why a healer/tank can't go and capture a flag using their strongest powers, just like a dps does by using its damage to kill the mobs.

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  • ellahellabella
    ellahellabella
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    phuein wrote: »
    I get the feeling that none of the responses above are from healer mains that play Cyro regularly.

    This post is about having fun. I see no reason why a healer/tank can't go and capture a flag using their strongest powers, just like a dps does by using its damage to kill the mobs.

    I get what you're trying to say but if a healer could do everything then where would your dps be? That's literally the job of a dps, damage. No point having a dps if everyone can.

    If you want to kill, spec for damage.
    Edited by ellahellabella on August 14, 2019 7:13PM
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  • NBrookus
    NBrookus
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    phuein wrote: »
    I get the feeling that none of the responses above are from healer mains that play Cyro regularly.

    This post is about having fun. I see no reason why a healer/tank can't go and capture a flag using their strongest powers, just like a dps does by using its damage to kill the mobs.

    In PVE-land, you don't heal mobs or bosses to death either. This is not a Cyrodiil issue. If you want to say healing tends to be unrewarding in ESO, you'd probably have a lot of people agreeing with you.

    If you want to have fun as a healer only spec in Cyro, find players or a guild that appreciates you, make them help you farm those group buff sets, and then enjoy having the power of deciding who lives and who dies. >:)
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  • dtsharples
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    You need only 1 or 2 damage skills on your bar as a healer to kill mobs.
    Mistform into the tower, kill the mage. Kill the healer that followed you, then kill the tanky guy.
    Then 2 options - use a fire Ballista to take out the healers on the flag from the tower, or a heavy damage aoe ulti.
    Heal and buff up and kill the remainder of the mobs.
  • phuein
    phuein
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    The lack of sympathy and understanding towards healers here shouldn't surprise me. No wonder Zeni behaves the same.

    DPS can do so many things everywhere, but healers and tanks aren't given equality even in cases that aren't necessary at all.
    Edited by phuein on August 15, 2019 6:21AM

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  • Morgul667
    Morgul667
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    Just slot a spammable and a damage ult for imp city and youll be fine
  • BRogueNZ
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    1 bar defensive 1 bar offensive.

    Build a big aoe beforehand to finish them off and/or .
    use a meat bag, its faster especially if you have many points in less selfish CP places (or in no CP) you can just be left with a tower guard.

    Edited by BRogueNZ on August 15, 2019 7:55AM
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  • ku5h
    ku5h
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    phuein wrote: »
    The lack of sympathy and understanding towards healers here shouldn't surprise me. No wonder Zeni behaves the same.

    DPS can do so many things everywhere, but healers and tanks aren't given equality even in cases that aren't necessary at all.

    If you want to play solo healer you have to slot couple of dmg skills, just like DPS have to slot healing/"tanking" skills if solo. What is the point of playing solo healer without dmg skills anyway? You heal until enemy die of old age?



    Edited by ku5h on August 15, 2019 9:48AM
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  • ku5h
    ku5h
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    Tell a DPS to go flip a resource without healing skill. See how that goes.
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  • mague
    mague
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    phuein wrote: »
    I get the feeling that none of the responses above are from healer mains that play Cyro regularly.

    This post is about having fun. I see no reason why a healer/tank can't go and capture a flag using their strongest powers, just like a dps does by using its damage to kill the mobs.

    You mean the flag starts to turn when you are close and then you outheal the NPC until the flag is turned and the guards swap ? I never tried it, but isnt it possible allready ?
  • Kartalin
    Kartalin
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    mague wrote: »
    phuein wrote: »
    I get the feeling that none of the responses above are from healer mains that play Cyro regularly.

    This post is about having fun. I see no reason why a healer/tank can't go and capture a flag using their strongest powers, just like a dps does by using its damage to kill the mobs.

    You mean the flag starts to turn when you are close and then you outheal the NPC until the flag is turned and the guards swap ? I never tried it, but isnt it possible allready ?
    You have to kill the guards for the flag to flip. Since the guards are part of a different faction they're going to outnumber you and keep it their color.
    phuein wrote: »
    The lack of sympathy and understanding towards healers here shouldn't surprise me. No wonder Zeni behaves the same.

    DPS can do so many things everywhere, but healers and tanks aren't given equality even in cases that aren't necessary at all.
    You strolled into Bahlokdaan on PC/NA (so no cp), went to a town and stood on the flag with guards and were disappointed that it didn’t flip. Which is fine in and of itself because it’s okay to not understand PvP right out of the gate. But then to complain this is a slight against healers and tanks is ludicrous. Even pve healers have shards and blockade which do some damage.

    I sometimes heal in our guild groups in PvP, and in those cases I usually only have 1 or 2 abilities (degeneration) that do damage —also Nova I guess but that’s to be synergized. I’m not going to kill anything myself except in extreme circumstances but I’m part of a group of 12 and I keep the dps alive who do that.

    If you do plan on being solo in pvp then you need to be a little bit of everything: damage with some tankiness and some heals.
    I understand wanting to have fun but that doesn’t mean you can take a healer build and expect to do everything.

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  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    phuein wrote: »
    I recently thought to myself, wouldn't it be cool to setup my healer to capture flags (towns) just by meditating next to a flag with heals-gear and buffs?!

    But, apparently, flags can only be captured by killing all the mobs around them. So, basically the only role for quick flag capture is a DPS.

    Tanks and healers can't have this fun? Not cool. Support is one thing, but I like to do some solo missions too.

    EDIT: This post is about having fun. I see no reason why a healer/tank can't go and capture a flag using their strongest powers, just like a dps does by using its damage to kill the mobs.

    This post is kinda like saying why can't I just meditate next to a dungeon boss and have it die. If you want to solo things you need a combination of the trio. DD players don't just go for full damage. They have heals and can take some hits too if they want to solo content. You need to do this too if you want to play solo
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  • phuein
    phuein
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    Even though I dislike the dps-fanboying going on, I'll clarify my op...

    Flagging is a mini-game in itself, unlike killing any sort of monster in PvE. It's there to encourage PvP. So it's not the same as the examples above.

    DPSing is currently the most (and only) efficient way of flagging! As a healer or tank, if I just "do some damage too", I'll be extremely inefficient - compared to a DPS with some heals. This is what shows the wrongful inequality!

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  • TBois
    TBois
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    phuein wrote: »
    Even though I dislike the dps-fanboying going on, I'll clarify my op...

    Flagging is a mini-game in itself, unlike killing any sort of monster in PvE. It's there to encourage PvP. So it's not the same as the examples above.

    DPSing is currently the most (and only) efficient way of flagging! As a healer or tank, if I just "do some damage too", I'll be extremely inefficient - compared to a DPS with some heals. This is what shows the wrongful inequality!

    Many people have told you that you can dps as a healer with seige to flag the resource.
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  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    phuein wrote: »
    Even though I dislike the dps-fanboying going on, I'll clarify my op...

    Flagging is a mini-game in itself, unlike killing any sort of monster in PvE. It's there to encourage PvP. So it's not the same as the examples above.

    DPSing is currently the most (and only) efficient way of flagging! As a healer or tank, if I just "do some damage too", I'll be extremely inefficient - compared to a DPS with some heals. This is what shows the wrongful inequality!

    Really, the only difference between a DPS and a healer is the abilities you slot (at least as far as killing flag guards is concerned). The same stats that boost healing also boost damage. So just slot some offensive abilities for the occassion, and you won't be extremely inefficient.
  • Fur_like_snow
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    Is this some kind of RP pacifist build? I had a friend do something similar years ago but he was always in a group with DPS. Besides, a healer in a PvP zone with none to heal at best sounds like a troll build at worst free AP. You might wanna rethink your plan OP.
  • Major_Lag
    Major_Lag
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    phuein wrote: »
    EDIT: This post is about having fun. I see no reason why a healer/tank can't go and capture a flag using their strongest powers, just like a dps does by using its damage to kill the mobs.

    Unfortunately, that's not how the game works... by their very nature, tank/healer roles are support roles, whose purpose is to help their teammates do their job (dealing damage) by keeping enemy aggro off of them (in PvE), debuffing the enemies while supplying heals and buffs to allies.
    All of this breaks down entirely when there aren't any allies around you whom you can support.

    Also the tank role means something very different in PvP than it does in PvE - beginning with the fact that you can't "taunt" enemy players, except perhaps in a meta way - but that's beyond the scope of this discussion.

    But back to the healer role... as the others have mentioned, a pure healer spec is totally 100% useless outside of a group (or a zerg, if you don't like being formally grouped).

    Of course you can still have A LOT OF FUN playing a pure healer/support spec in Cyrodiil with no damage-dealing abilities slotted (except maybe a ranged execute). Been there, done that. 11/10, would zerg again :) But if you end up separated from the rest of your group, or are the last one standing... well, time to open the map and start looking for a good place to respawn next... enough said :neutral:

    If you really want to be able to at least take resources solo as a healer, you should look for a healer build that also has some offensive abilities on the frontbar.

    For example, on a templar, you could slot jabs/sweeps and either Backlash and/or Eclipse (pick relevant morphs for you build). Both of the latter skills also have great group utility as well.

    Use siege on the 4 flag guards after killing the 2-3 mobile NPCs lured inside the tower. A coldharbor ballista works wonders here; but the fire ballista is also a viable (if much slower) option and a lot cheaper to boot.
    For bonus points, kill the tower mage by pouring flaming oil on his head, these mages are SUPER squishy, IIRC they die in 1 hit from the oil :D

    At the end of the day, it's of course all a matter of perspective - whether you see it as a "DPS with some group heals" or a "healer with some damage abilities", since there is a substantial overlap between those 2.

    Don't be afraid to experiment and try different things to find what works best for you. After all, PvP is nothing like PvE - you need to be flexible and adapt to the circumstances.
  • phuein
    phuein
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    At this point, I have to wonder what is the actual healer/tank/dps ratio in ESO. The most common response is "just dps" as if it wouldn't be more fun and efficient to just play a dps build in that case. :#

    There is literally no reason that healers and tanks can't flag towns in Cyro without basically playing a dps. No reason at all.

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  • Major_Lag
    Major_Lag
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    Uhh... and how exactly do you plan on taking resource/town flags as a tank/healer, exactly?

    The flag guards prevent the flag from flipping (when you are solo) because they outnumber you 4 to 1, and the flag won't even begin to flip until your faction outnumbers the enemies on the flag - which, when solo, is only possible when ALL of the flag guards are dead (so you outnumber them 1 to 0).

    Moreover, even if you manage to whittle them down as a tank or healer, you are on a timer there - quite literally.
    If you can't kill all of the flag guards within a reasonably short time of each other, what will happen is that the one you have killed first will respawn before the flag finishes flipping... it's literally impossible to flip a flag if you can't deal the requisite minimum DPS.
    Think of it as being a different form of a "DPS check", similar to those which already exist in endgame PvE content.

    As much as I sympathize with healers in ESO, who are being rendered increasingly irrelevant with every new update (and I used to main a PvP largescale healer character), quite frankly I find your proposition just plain silly.
    It does not make any sense on a purely logical level, and also fails to make any sense within the context of the rules of the game.
  • xylena_lazarow
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    phuein wrote: »
    There is literally no reason that healers and tanks can't flag towns in Cyro without basically playing a dps. No reason at all.

    It's been mentioned multiple times that you can be full heal or full tank and use siege to take out npc guards, if having zero damage is that important to you. Failing that, slotting even just one damage ability should be sufficient to take out npc guards. Damage builds in PvP slot heals and survival abilities. Tanks and Healers in PvE even do some damage, as there are plenty of support-focused abilities in this game that also have a damage component, probably designed that way to address exactly the issue you're having.
  • Major_Lag
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    (...) I have been a straight healer and it's not the impossibility that you claim it is.

    +1 on that.

    I have played a pure healer spec in Cyro for quite some time as well, it works perfectly fine as long as you understand the limitations inherent in playing such a spec and play smart to avoid getting yourself into situations where you will be at a massive disadvantage.

    Obviously, running off to take a resource solo without any siege, or at least a single damaging ability slotted, is a complete non-starter. Even if you don't die in your attempt, you will get nowhere because you can't actually capture the resource in those circumstances.

    (...) Failing that, slotting even just one damage ability should be sufficient to take out npc guards. (...)

    Templar jabs/sweeps are amazing for this, as long as you first purge away the heavy defile which the NPCs like to spam on you.
    On a sorc, Daedric Tomb works very well as a spammable if you can sustain it (and as a healer you should have no problem with sustain anyway).
    As for other classes... well, you get the idea, use your imagination.
  • VaranisArano
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    I play a MagDK healer with a few damage skills in Cyrodiil, and I can solo resources without siege and without changing my group healer build. It feels like it takes forever because I'm not actually built to DPS, but it can be done before the first NPCs respawn.

    If I know I want to solo resources or solo a town for a while, I usually add a few more damage skills to be set up just to speed things up. Adaptation to different PVP situations is a smart thing - I don't use the same skills in Battlegrounds as I do in Cyrodiil - so why wouldnt you adjust your build when you know you need to kill NPCs?

    (I sorta question the utility of a no-damage-skill-healer-build outside of an organized raid. Even if you want to play a healer, you have got to adjust for solo play or its like choosing to play with one hand tied behind your back.)
  • idk
    idk
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    The OP does not make sense. It seems OP is running around Cyrodiil solo in a pure healer build which is illogical. If you are running around solo you need a dps build that has heals for sustain.

    Further, even the premise is a little off kilter. Like the NPCs of a keep should note you are a healer and do not have any dps skills on you and allow you to walk right in and turn the flags. Oh my, we have an enemy healer here, what shall we do? Let them pass and take the keep since he cannot do us any harm directly. LOL, yea.
    Really, idk
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