I want to use 2H backbar on my Tank, help

D0PAMINE · August 2019

Commancho wrote: »

Personaly I use 2H asylum for ultimate regeneration.

I've considered this for some content but my bag space is so full with tank sets, even after making set pieces interchangable with the traited jewelry. I simply like the lightning staff more. I found it easier to manage as I get more into tanking the harder stuff. I like heroic slash being 15 seconds now, up from 12. Are you running Asylum with Dragonguard?

Cortimi · August 2019

All these people forgetting that you can light attack weave on any build with any weapon to apply Crusher. Sad really.

Cortimi · August 2019

msalvia wrote: »

Started a new one direclty responding to OP.

2hander is the sign of a noob tank for a few reasons:

1. It does not proc crusher well (even if stampede applies it, it's worse than both bow and destro staff).
2. Your snb heavies restore stam, you want something that can restore mag (i.e. a frost staff). 2hander brings nothing to your sustain.
3. Blocking with snb (and to a lesser extent frost staff) is doable in hard content. If you get caught blocking on your 2hander bar, you're dead in most hard vet content.
4. 2hander is a damage weapon. Tanks do no damage, and if they do, they're not real tanks. Tanks need utility. Frost staff and SnB offer this UTILITY. Remember a tank needs CC or it's not a tank.
5. Sometimes healers suck, and the tank needs to apply ele drain.
6. Looking at the 2hander skills, I see absolutely nothing that helps a tank. It's all DPS skills. So if you're a serious tank, what is the possible strategic benefit of running a 2 hander? If it's all aesthetics, I can't speak to RP issues.
7. You mention that you want to add damage to the group by using a 2hander. But you don't want to seriously increase group damage by running Alkosh. Are you sure you want to play a tank? You could always just dps...

If I missed something please add. I can see no persuasive reason that 2hander on a tank is anything more than a noob alert (or a pvper).

Please do not listen to this person, they have absolutely NO idea about tanks whatsoever.

1. Crusher is procced by a light attack with ANY weapon. You can proc it by knowing what light attack weaving is, as using a light attack before just about any skill in the game to proc am enchant. This this point is just straight up wrong.

2. Again, this is straight up wrong. There is no extra passive in the SnN line that increases Stam return more than a different melee weapon. It is the HEAVY ARMOR line that has this passive. Therefore ANY Stam based weapon will have this bonus apply while wearing heavy armor.

3. Blocking is "doable" with a SnB? You understand that it is the BEST choice for blocking, as it is the ONLY Stam based weapon line that mitigates blocked damage. A Frost staff is the only mag based weapon that increases mitigation, but it does not do it as well as SnB. Also, you can use the SnB ulti and swap to whatever weapon you want on back bar.

4. You obviously have no idea of the utility of the 2H line. It has an antisnare, a hot, a burst heal, an antistun, a Stam Regen boosting passive, and an aoe you can use as an option for doing fast pulls. Also, to use your "logic": Destruction Staff is a DAMAGE WEAPON, TANKS DO NO DAMAGE, if they do, they're not real tanks.

5. No. It is not your job to compensate for other role failings. Nobody ever is going to say that to be a viable, top tier DPS you need to be able to tank the boss because your tank sucks. Not their job, not my job.

6. As I have already explained, you have no idea what you are looking at, so it makes sense you don't understand how different skills are going to play into the role, because you lack a fundamental understanding of it.

7. You chide him for not wanting to run Alkosh but still wanting to help with DPS...yet you insist Alkosh is optimal because it helps with DPS. Which is it, are tanks supposed to assist and supplement damage or not? If not, then why bother with Crushers etc?

This is what happens when someone watches a streamer do some weird exotic junk and they take it as gospel.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · August 2019

@Cortimi you got an awesome from me also mate. good post.

Browiseth · August 2019

you really are just better off using literally anything else my friend haha

no one's saying you can't use 2h though, if you're planning on being a decent tank you'll likely get zero use out of it though and it'll just be on your backbar for no reason

Grianasteri · August 2019

MrBumblefoot wrote: »

Ok here are my issues:

I hate using a staff on my Tank. I also can't bother with grinding every skill line since it's not my main character. I just want to use a 2H axe on backbar. It's already maxed because PvP. This character already gave me tons of trouble since I want to use him in PvP too. I put all my points into Stamina instead of Health and then struggled reaching 35k hp.

Now I want to frontbar Yolnahkriin (Yeah I hate Alkosh and want to stop using that DD set). I don't push scores so I don't think I have to chase the perfect build. But still I do serious content like Vet HMs and I want to be as efficient as possible while also using the build I like.

Stampede is getting buffed to become a reilable way to apply Crusher so I feel like backbarring a 2H weapon will no longer be the noob move. I also have a nice Stamina pool and I was hoping that I can use the Maelstrom 2H to provide a little more damage for the group.

Can anyone compare their advantages/disadvantages? As far as I know I'm losing only two things: Off-balance support and instant mob pull.

Thanks.

I run a 2H on my back bar for one of my tonks". I cant see how this clearly advantageous build for some circumstances, can be seen as a noob move, but, meta zombies I guess.

I really dont have an issue with off balance, to me this has always been a healers job with a shock staff, or of course a sorc dps.

I have no problem pulling mobs, it can just take a moment longer.

A brawler/heal/spam rotation is effective, I find I really dont need to be on my sword n board bar that often unless tackling big hitting mechanics and bosses, and of course to taunt and pull adds periodically.

Browiseth · August 2019

Cortimi wrote: »

msalvia wrote: »

Started a new one direclty responding to OP.

2hander is the sign of a noob tank for a few reasons:

1. It does not proc crusher well (even if stampede applies it, it's worse than both bow and destro staff).
2. Your snb heavies restore stam, you want something that can restore mag (i.e. a frost staff). 2hander brings nothing to your sustain.
3. Blocking with snb (and to a lesser extent frost staff) is doable in hard content. If you get caught blocking on your 2hander bar, you're dead in most hard vet content.
4. 2hander is a damage weapon. Tanks do no damage, and if they do, they're not real tanks. Tanks need utility. Frost staff and SnB offer this UTILITY. Remember a tank needs CC or it's not a tank.
5. Sometimes healers suck, and the tank needs to apply ele drain.
6. Looking at the 2hander skills, I see absolutely nothing that helps a tank. It's all DPS skills. So if you're a serious tank, what is the possible strategic benefit of running a 2 hander? If it's all aesthetics, I can't speak to RP issues.
7. You mention that you want to add damage to the group by using a 2hander. But you don't want to seriously increase group damage by running Alkosh. Are you sure you want to play a tank? You could always just dps...

If I missed something please add. I can see no persuasive reason that 2hander on a tank is anything more than a noob alert (or a pvper).

Please do not listen to this person, they have absolutely NO idea about tanks whatsoever.

1. Crusher is procced by a light attack with ANY weapon. You can proc it by knowing what light attack weaving is, as using a light attack before just about any skill in the game to proc am enchant. This this point is just straight up wrong.

2. Again, this is straight up wrong. There is no extra passive in the SnN line that increases Stam return more than a different melee weapon. It is the HEAVY ARMOR line that has this passive. Therefore ANY Stam based weapon will have this bonus apply while wearing heavy armor.

3. Blocking is "doable" with a SnB? You understand that it is the BEST choice for blocking, as it is the ONLY Stam based weapon line that mitigates blocked damage. A Frost staff is the only mag based weapon that increases mitigation, but it does not do it as well as SnB. Also, you can use the SnB ulti and swap to whatever weapon you want on back bar.

4. You obviously have no idea of the utility of the 2H line. It has an antisnare, a hot, a burst heal, an antistun, a Stam Regen boosting passive, and an aoe you can use as an option for doing fast pulls. Also, to use your "logic": Destruction Staff is a DAMAGE WEAPON, TANKS DO NO DAMAGE, if they do, they're not real tanks.

5. No. It is not your job to compensate for other role failings. Nobody ever is going to say that to be a viable, top tier DPS you need to be able to tank the boss because your tank sucks. Not their job, not my job.

6. As I have already explained, you have no idea what you are looking at, so it makes sense you don't understand how different skills are going to play into the role, because you lack a fundamental understanding of it.

7. You chide him for not wanting to run Alkosh but still wanting to help with DPS...yet you insist Alkosh is optimal because it helps with DPS. Which is it, are tanks supposed to assist and supplement damage or not? If not, then why bother with Crushers etc?

This is what happens when someone watches a streamer do some weird exotic junk and they take it as gospel.

@Cortimi

1) msalvia's point was there are better more efficient ways for a tank to proc crusher

2) you're willfully ignoring that his point was that a tank gets more use out of a staff heavy attack for restoring mag, which is another point against equipping a 2h

3) why are you framing this as a disagreement? he said blocking is doable with a snb, so are you.

4) 2h stam regen is gained on kill, something tanks won't be doing a lot of. the heal is based on stam and weapon damage, something a tank won't have a whole lot of.

5) this is where the meta lies. the tank has a lot of room for utility in addition to their tanking roles, so it's more beneficial for them to pick up the slack in a few areas

6) i think it's pretty clear that YOU have no idea what you're talking about lol

7) his point was that it's better for tanks to run support sets that can boost the team's damage while they are filling their role as a tank, rather than awkwardly switching to "epic dps mode" when they bring out their 2h that does diddly for damage because they aren't built to be a damage dealer

all in all you've done an excellent job creating strawman arguments to ignore msalvia's points and make yourself seem like some kind of paragon for the 'play how you want to play' crowd. unfortunately for you i haven't fallen for it.

Elwendryll · August 2019

Isn't stampede a ground DoT? Like exactly what you need to apply crusher, did some people miss this part of the patch note?

CynicK · August 2019

I am not an expert but I tank though veteran dungeons and on pledges we do hard mode and I use a 2h in my backbar the only skill i have that uses magica is hardened armor for the shield and I can reapply it usually when it expires so I don't see the need of a staff to restore magica, I have put an oblivion damage enchant in the 2h and after taunting when the bosses are under 50% health I usually switch to the two hander and do the execute the max 4k damage of the enchant is very nice this way we do the dungeon faster.
I have not tryed trials but at the moment it works very well for me, few times I have problems.

ATreeGnome · August 2019

MrBumblefoot wrote: »

Ok here are my issues:

I hate using a staff on my Tank. I also can't bother with grinding every skill line since it's not my main character. I just want to use a 2H axe on backbar. It's already maxed because PvP. This character already gave me tons of trouble since I want to use him in PvP too. I put all my points into Stamina instead of Health and then struggled reaching 35k hp.

Now I want to frontbar Yolnahkriin (Yeah I hate Alkosh and want to stop using that DD set). I don't push scores so I don't think I have to chase the perfect build. But still I do serious content like Vet HMs and I want to be as efficient as possible while also using the build I like.

Stampede is getting buffed to become a reilable way to apply Crusher so I feel like backbarring a 2H weapon will no longer be the noob move. I also have a nice Stamina pool and I was hoping that I can use the Maelstrom 2H to provide a little more damage for the group.

Can anyone compare their advantages/disadvantages? As far as I know I'm losing only two things: Off-balance support and instant mob pull.

Thanks.

Running a 2h isn't optimal but there's no reason to consider it to not be viable for semi-casual raiding with the new stampede. There are drawbacks. Obviously you miss out on some off-balance uptime by not running a lightning staff or lose some defensive bonuses by not running a frost staff and you lose the ability to heavy attack for magicka.

There is, however, one advantage you can get. You have the option to use an Asylum 2 hander with executioner for crazy ult generation in execute phases for extra warhorns. I personally don't think this makes up for the disadvantages but it helps close the gap. Of course, you need to be good at knowing when to switch back to your s&b bar so you don't get 1 shot.

ATreeGnome · August 2019

Cortimi wrote: »

All these people forgetting that you can light attack weave on any build with any weapon to apply Crusher. Sad really.

You do know the entire goal is to be able to proc your staff/bow/2 hander enchant while on your other bar, right? You can't light attack with your back bar weapon while on your front bar. This is why good PvErs almost exclusively run backbar weapons that have a ground target AoE DoT for every role, to reliably re-apply their backbar enchantment while doing things on their front bar.

msalvia · August 2019

[/quote]

You contradict yourself multiple times in the same post. [/quote]

Explain.

msalvia · August 2019

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

msalvia wrote: »

Started a new one direclty responding to OP.

2hander is the sign of a noob tank for a few reasons:

1. It does not proc crusher well (even if stampede applies it, it's worse than both bow and destro staff).
2. Your snb heavies restore stam, you want something that can restore mag (i.e. a frost staff). 2hander brings nothing to your sustain.
3. Blocking with snb (and to a lesser extent frost staff) is doable in hard content. If you get caught blocking on your 2hander bar, you're dead in most hard vet content.
4. 2hander is a damage weapon. Tanks do no damage, and if they do, they're not real tanks. Tanks need utility. Frost staff and SnB offer this UTILITY. Remember a tank needs CC or it's not a tank.
5. Sometimes healers suck, and the tank needs to apply ele drain.
6. Looking at the 2hander skills, I see absolutely nothing that helps a tank. It's all DPS skills. So if you're a serious tank, what is the possible strategic benefit of running a 2 hander? If it's all aesthetics, I can't speak to RP issues.
7. You mention that you want to add damage to the group by using a 2hander. But you don't want to seriously increase group damage by running Alkosh. Are you sure you want to play a tank? You could always just dps...

If I missed something please add. I can see no persuasive reason that 2hander on a tank is anything more than a noob alert (or a pvper).

Few things. Crushing is activated by Carve bleed, and the Heavy Weapons passive if using Battleaxe.

Alkosh is a pile of poo, even for average guild premade groups. As tank you won't get the amount of synergies needed to use Alkosh. And with the nerf to the orbs, and the tedency to run groups with no healer (dungeons) and more DDs in trials these days, you will be lucky to pick 1 synergy per boss. Except if you are Necro where you can trigger your own synergy.
And you contradict your point about Alkosh also on (5) when some healers aren't that good.

You have to be in a serious leaderboard chasing guild to benefit from Alkosh.

As for Elemental Drain, any MA DD worth his salt is using it in rotation, like Sta DDs using Razor Caltrops (Major Fracture).
Also Major Breach is obtained by Tank's Pierce Armour by default.

True 2H while trying to block vet bosses isn't good, but I doubt that matters in this case.
As for staff, I hate them on my tanks hence I do not use it. The missing crushing is pitiful and only for leaderboards chasers, as it shaves off 1 second on boss fights at best. Assuming the DDs are not noobs doing proper 45K rotations

May I respectfully respond to a few points here?

Yes, 2hander CAN proc crushing. The question (clear from my post) was what does it best? All things considered it's a destro staff WoE. Opportunity cost is the isssue here. Really, bow keeps it up the best, but doesn't have any relevant passives or status effects.

"Alkosh is a pile of poo" is kind of an insane statement. It's literally the set every serious group expects tanks to run. And again, opportunity cost: what set improves the group more than Alkosh? Nothing. What setup do you prefer over this, I'd like to know.

I've never seen a dps run ele drain. This is a healer skill, and I like being able to use it on a tank just in case, or when running 3 dps/1 tank. And plenty of healers (and dps for that matter) use synergies, even if they aren't running ele drain. I never have trouble picking up synergies in even a moderately competent group.

And if you do any kind of challenging content, you absolutely need to think about blocking as a tank. Please block through even something simple like Ra Kotu's spin on vet with a 2hander and see how that works. If we're just smashing FG1, it doesn't matter, I'll agree. But it's not accurate to say blocking doesn't matter for tanks.

As for why you dislike staff, is it all aesthetics? Cuz so many people are calling my well-reasoned, objective points about why staff is BETTER for tanking "wrong" or "stupid" without elaborating why a 2hander is better. It's not, and I'm still waiting for one person to explain why I'm wrong on this. It's not that you can't tank with a 2 hander, it's that there are better options if you want to do the role as well as possible.

msalvia · August 2019

Cortimi wrote: »

msalvia wrote: »

Started a new one direclty responding to OP.

2hander is the sign of a noob tank for a few reasons:

1. It does not proc crusher well (even if stampede applies it, it's worse than both bow and destro staff).
2. Your snb heavies restore stam, you want something that can restore mag (i.e. a frost staff). 2hander brings nothing to your sustain.
3. Blocking with snb (and to a lesser extent frost staff) is doable in hard content. If you get caught blocking on your 2hander bar, you're dead in most hard vet content.
4. 2hander is a damage weapon. Tanks do no damage, and if they do, they're not real tanks. Tanks need utility. Frost staff and SnB offer this UTILITY. Remember a tank needs CC or it's not a tank.
5. Sometimes healers suck, and the tank needs to apply ele drain.
6. Looking at the 2hander skills, I see absolutely nothing that helps a tank. It's all DPS skills. So if you're a serious tank, what is the possible strategic benefit of running a 2 hander? If it's all aesthetics, I can't speak to RP issues.
7. You mention that you want to add damage to the group by using a 2hander. But you don't want to seriously increase group damage by running Alkosh. Are you sure you want to play a tank? You could always just dps...

If I missed something please add. I can see no persuasive reason that 2hander on a tank is anything more than a noob alert (or a pvper).

Please do not listen to this person, they have absolutely NO idea about tanks whatsoever.

1. Crusher is procced by a light attack with ANY weapon. You can proc it by knowing what light attack weaving is, as using a light attack before just about any skill in the game to proc am enchant. This this point is just straight up wrong.

2. Again, this is straight up wrong. There is no extra passive in the SnN line that increases Stam return more than a different melee weapon. It is the HEAVY ARMOR line that has this passive. Therefore ANY Stam based weapon will have this bonus apply while wearing heavy armor.

3. Blocking is "doable" with a SnB? You understand that it is the BEST choice for blocking, as it is the ONLY Stam based weapon line that mitigates blocked damage. A Frost staff is the only mag based weapon that increases mitigation, but it does not do it as well as SnB. Also, you can use the SnB ulti and swap to whatever weapon you want on back bar.

4. You obviously have no idea of the utility of the 2H line. It has an antisnare, a hot, a burst heal, an antistun, a Stam Regen boosting passive, and an aoe you can use as an option for doing fast pulls. Also, to use your "logic": Destruction Staff is a DAMAGE WEAPON, TANKS DO NO DAMAGE, if they do, they're not real tanks.

5. No. It is not your job to compensate for other role failings. Nobody ever is going to say that to be a viable, top tier DPS you need to be able to tank the boss because your tank sucks. Not their job, not my job.

6. As I have already explained, you have no idea what you are looking at, so it makes sense you don't understand how different skills are going to play into the role, because you lack a fundamental understanding of it.

7. You chide him for not wanting to run Alkosh but still wanting to help with DPS...yet you insist Alkosh is optimal because it helps with DPS. Which is it, are tanks supposed to assist and supplement damage or not? If not, then why bother with Crushers etc?

This is what happens when someone watches a streamer do some weird exotic junk and they take it as gospel.

Pro Tip: Personal Attack/Ad Hominem is a bad choice for debates, especially when your post lacks reasoning (and, from what I can tell, you had trouble reading/comprehending my post). Allow me to respond respectfully, and I recommend you do the same to avoid similarly embarrassing situations for yourself.

1. Obviously light attacks proc crusher. WE're talking about uptimes and what is most EFFECTIVE. Sure, you can proc it by light attacking, but it's not gonna have good uptimes, and you're seldom on your backbar very much while tanking. Guarantee my WoE keeps crusher up longer than your occasional light attack. Still no reason why I'm "wrong" or why 2hander is a good idea.

2. It's pretty clear that I mean heavy attack with SnB restores stam, heavy with staff restores mag. I simply said you'll want the option to restore both, hence having a staff. Still no reason why I'm wrong, and it's not clear you understood what I wrote.

3. Why is this point here? I clearly said you want to block on SnB, and next best choice is frost staff. You coulda just said "i agree" to this one. Still no reason why I'm wrong, and it's not clear you understood what I wrote.

4. 2hander has utility, but it is OBJECTIVELY WORSE than frost staves. The only utility 2h brings is:
-Rally--a bad HoT, and snares almost never come up (and when they do, healers have purge). Vigor is an infinitely better HoT.
-extra stam WHEN YOU KILL SOMETHING: aka almost never if you're actually tanking.
-more stam recovery for heavy attacks--pointless if you have a clue about self sustain while tanking

Compare that to the utlity of an ice staff (which, note, is NOT A DPS WEAPON, per the passives and the fact that no serious magdps runs frost). THere's no comparison. As a tank you do not need any of these passives/abilities. Again, oppportunity cost.

5. Tanks in ESO (at least good ones) are buffbots. Their whole role is supporting the team, and that includes helping crank up the dps. Sure, you can run selfish tank sets if you can't survive, but at the top level support roles (like tanks) are meant to support the group. I'd love to see your tank setup, tbh.

6. See above about why 2h is clearly, objectively inferior. But perhaps for some (unthinking) readers, this kind of personal attack is effective. I'm happy to whip out my EPEEN achieves if you want my credentials, and I'm curious to see which of our tanks are gonna be welcomed into vet trials.

7. This sounds like a troll post, but I'll respond sincerely anyway: tanks help do damage by SUPPORTING THE GROUP by wearing sets that juice dps. The way a tank contributes dps is through buffs/debuffs, not doing 1k damage with some 2hander spam. Logic FTW.

I hope this was instructive, and I beg you, don't come at people who know more than you because the internet allows you to !@#$post without reading/understanding what others have written. And if I'm actually "wrong" or "clueless" or whatever, have actual reasons why you disagree. That's how discourse works.

idk · August 2019

Cortimi wrote: »

All these people forgetting that you can light attack weave on any build with any weapon to apply Crusher. Sad really.

It really seems you are missing a very important point in our replies and OP's comments in this thread. Sad really.

msalvia · August 2019

CynicK wrote: »

I am not an expert but I tank though veteran dungeons and on pledges we do hard mode and I use a 2h in my backbar the only skill i have that uses magica is hardened armor for the shield and I can reapply it usually when it expires so I don't see the need of a staff to restore magica, I have put an oblivion damage enchant in the 2h and after taunting when the bosses are under 50% health I usually switch to the two hander and do the execute the max 4k damage of the enchant is very nice this way we do the dungeon faster.
I have not tryed trials but at the moment it works very well for me, few times I have problems.

Sincere question, what do you use for CC? My dk uses all kinds of magic for talons and chains. Also, the little bit of damage from your tank's oblivion enchant is way worse than running crusher, which improves all people's dps (including the people actually doing damage).

CynicK · August 2019

msalvia wrote: »

CynicK wrote: »

I am not an expert but I tank though veteran dungeons and on pledges we do hard mode and I use a 2h in my backbar the only skill i have that uses magica is hardened armor for the shield and I can reapply it usually when it expires so I don't see the need of a staff to restore magica, I have put an oblivion damage enchant in the 2h and after taunting when the bosses are under 50% health I usually switch to the two hander and do the execute the max 4k damage of the enchant is very nice this way we do the dungeon faster.
I have not tryed trials but at the moment it works very well for me, few times I have problems.

Sincere question, what do you use for CC? My dk uses all kinds of magic for talons and chains. Also, the little bit of damage from your tank's oblivion enchant is way worse than running crusher, which improves all people's dps (including the people actually doing damage).

I use puncture, I puncture everyone I catch and soak up the damage with the shields if needed but I have seen there some room for improvement there, I have to say that when I played dps on normal dungeons I did not saw any tank using croud control either I copied what I saw, If someone in the group has atracted agro and is taking damage i go there and puncture and keep reapplaying puncture over the group of mobs I have on me, sometimes I leave the group of mobs I have taunted and go taunt more mobs if they are damaging the group, I liked puncture doing more damage.

MrBrownstone · August 2019

Ok people I just tried it and made my decision. 2H on backbar is simply bad because it's clunky. You can't barswap quick enough after using Stampede, which makes it very risky. However Elemental Blockade can be animation cancelled instantly. There is a very noticeable difference, it really matters. I won't be using a 2H.